Is Islam ( Abrahamic religion ) violent according to it's Quo'ran?

Spirituality Religion
#24

@TonyTamer

I’ve been hesitant posting anything further on the religious forum as I’ve grown tired of it. I’ve enjoyed your recent postings and you have brought many new insights into the discussion and echoed what many of us have tried to say in numerous threads. Thank you!

Other thoughts:

I just deleted an entire paragraph because I no longer want to be caught up in any discussion that is going no where. SD, you don’t need to win every argument. Listen to the good people of this forum for a change. It might surprise you to find out they also have many good ideas and have agreed with many of the things you have said but have been too set “on the win” to see it. We have common ground here. It is called Yoga. Let us use our yoga to collectively try to understand that which we don’t, and to accept things that we have no control over. As I see it, there is no battle. Only kind gentle souls. Some just need to be pried out a bit!

#25

Followed properly Abrahamic religions do not ask their followers to hate but to love

You really should go and tell this to the surviving Native Americans, Australian Aboriginals, Pagans and the Hindus in India. Crusades, inquisitions, witch burnings were not just done by people who were members of Abrahamic religion, they were ordained by the actual clergies of these religions, by Popes, Caliphs etc Furthermore, the actual scriptures of these religion do in fact teach a hate doctrine against people who are not members of their relgion. The bible and Quran both prescribes death for this.

Why can’t you support the good in Islam- such as the Sufi’s, and Rumi, the love poet, instead of labeling them as unredeemably bad

Who said I don’t? I love Sufism and have great respect for the Sufis. But they are a tiny minority in Islam, considered heretics and many of them were put to death as well. They are not at all representative of Islam. In fact Sufis did not exist until at least two centuries after Mohammed, and in all likeliness Sufis were the left over mystics in pre-Islamic Arabia, who adopted Islamic beliefs and practices to survive.

Now why can’t you support the good the Nazis did?

#26

SD, you don’t need to win every argument. Listen to the good people of this forum for a change. It might surprise you to find out they also have many good ideas and have agreed with many of the things you have said but have been too set “on the win” to see it.

If you mean by good people, people who have double standards and cry in horror against what was done to the Jews by the Nazis, but ignore what was done to the Hindus, Native Americans, Aboriginies, Pagans by the Abrahamic religons etc, then I am obviously not a good person.

Ignoring history does not make you good, it simply makes you ignorant.

#27

Amongst (contemporary) Germans ,Nazi history and the Holocaust is still really a touchy subject, even today.You would think that Germans would be comforftable today talking about it but they’re sill really sensitive and it’s still quite taboo if you were to bring it up, certaiinly as a foreigner, outsider. It’s like they still feel really embarrased about their past history,as if ashamed, they feel there’s little to nothing they can do about it.

There is evidence today to show that Naziism could have emerged in Britain, and indeed it did so ,between the war years,before the brink of WW2.Parties like the BNP were rife then and they preyed on anti-semitic & other mixed-up feelings & ideologies.

#28

Oh Surya. Sometimes you are your own worst enemy! You are still in the mindset of" I gotta win at all costs". What’s it costing you? We have gone over and over trying to explain our reasoning. You have selectively chosen not to listen. I believe it is your loss in the end.

#29

Glad that you can accept non-hindu’s as human-there’s hope for you yet. As far as all the rest- I believe conquerors conquer for areligious reasons whether they say so or not. Hindu’s have conquerors as well. I truly love the Hindu way. Namaste

#30

Hey, even quite a few Americans at the time , 1930’s,were quite friendly with and admired the Nazis , until they probably realised they were not with the British.The U.S however did a great deal to help with the blockade and protect traffic,supplies and so forth, in the Atlantic during the war for the U.K and it’s allies.

#31

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;38921]Oh Surya. Sometimes you are your own worst enemy! You are still in the mindset of" I gotta win at all costs". What’s it costing you? We have gone over and over trying to explain our reasoning. You have selectively chosen not to listen. I believe it is your loss in the end.[/QUOTE]

You seem to be the enemy of truth.

I don’t care about winning debates, I care about what is true. I believe it is your loss, if you would rather believe in a lie than a truth.

The truth is, and it is unanimous if one looks at history, that the Abrahamic religions have been the most violent and destructive phenomenon in the history of this planet. Everybody has heard of the inquisitions, crusades, witch burnings, jihads and we know they were done on the orders of their religious authorities.

Anybody can pick up the Bible and the Quran and read them and read that they do indeed preach hate doctrines against other religions and prescribe death to their followers.

Unfortunately, people like you who claim to be all about love and peace, do a huge disservice to the progress of love and peace on this planet, by preventing criticism of genuine evils in society and allowing them to continue unabated.

Let me ask you an honest question: Do you think we should ignore what the Nazis did and stop teaching that history?

#32

Love and peace start with the individual- if it is not there then where will it come from- I think a yoga forums site is a place for individual improvement via opening the heart. I agree that horrible things were done by people who call themselves Muslims to people who call themselves Hindu, it is up to the individual to live up to his ideals. Your overview of History is godlike in its scope and ungodlike in its empathy towards others, both here at this forum and towards those who find themselves on a path circumstance placed them. BTW you are wrong in your assessment of Sufi’s, both as non-representative of " Muslims " ( like saying the word normal )and their tangential importance and numbers, google it. Of the 1.3 billion muslims, 20% are sufi ( They are the ones building the NY city Mosque at the 9/11 site ), They have been fundamental adherents from the beginning,believers in both the sacredness of the Qu’ran and Muhammad - History of Sufism
Origins
In its early stages of development Sufism effectively referred to nothing more than the internalization of Islam .According to one perspective, it is directly from the Qur’an, constantly recited, meditated, and experienced, that Sufism proceeded, in its origin and its development. Others have held that Sufism is the strict emulation of the way of Muhammad, through which the heart’s connection to the Divine is strengthened.

From the traditional Sufi point of view, the esoteric teachings of Sufism were transmitted from Muhammad

#33

Your overview of History is godlike in its scope and ungodlike in its empathy towards others, both here at this forum and towards those who find themselves on a path circumstance placed them.

I simply state the facts. I have no concern for such things as empathy when giving facts. The facts speak for themselves.

The Abrahamic religions did evil deeds, and now they will have to face what they did. Condemnation.

Alternatively, Hinduism did good deeds, and now it is getting the appreciation for what it has done. Praise.

Although Sufis believe that their teachings come from Muhammed and they offer selected verses out of the Quran to support it, there is no historical evidence for it. The history shows that Sufism appeared at least 2 centuries later, and it was not a welcome development in Islam by all means.

I give credit where credit is due and criticism where criticism is due. I am very consistent.
This is because all I care about is what is true. I could careless if what is true offends or hurts somebody else, because truth always remains truth.

#34

If you are concerned with just facts and truth why is it you so easily contradict things like the Sufi history ? I checked my facts from 2 sources easily googled and while that’s no guaratee they are facts , I’d think with your respect for truth you’d allow other references enough credibility to say they might be true. You also don’t address the main point of the Sufi point which is that they are Muslim both in spirit and influence ( remember the population statistics ?) The devil can cite scripture for his purposes say one philosophy about ‘just the facts’ and the whole is greater than the sum of it’s parts, another appropriate idea. As Emerson said, " A foolish consistency is the Hobgoblin of little minds ". I do not think you have a little mind but I do think you have myopia and until you have empathy you have little chance of knowing the Truth. You’ll be stuck in a dark corner alone, an orphan who won’t let himself be adopted. That’s extreme because I know you have your friends (probably your closest are also zealots ), but your heart won’t beat free until it expands to include your Muslim brothers and sisters as well. You don’t get 1.3 billion followers from just coercion , there must be redeeming qualities you can accentuate to allow Islam itself respect. Shalom

#35

SD, you don’t need to win every argument. Listen to the good people of this forum for a change. It might surprise you to find out they also have many good ideas and have agreed with many of the things you have said but have been too set “on the win” to see it. We have common ground here. It is called Yoga. Let us use our yoga to collectively try to understand that which we don’t, and to accept things that we have no control over. As I see it, there is no battle. Only kind gentle souls. Some just need to be pried out a bit!

I just held out an olive branch and you whacked the whole tree down! Do you not like olives?

You seem to be the enemy of truth.

I don’t care about winning debates, I care about what is true. I believe it is your loss, if you would rather believe in a lie than a truth.

When one speaks the truth, they must consider what is said, how it is said and if it will harm someone. If you speak the truth and it has negative consequences it is better to say nothing. (Satya) And if you are not responsible with ‘the truth’ it can be used as a weapon against others causing them harm (Ahimsa) With Ahimsa, one’s thoughts words and actions are non-violent. You would not harm another person because you realize as an individual you are intimately connected to life’s fabric.

So, as I see it, the truth about the Abrahamic religions being violent, if practicing Ahimsa and Satya, can be said in such a way as to not offend. If it offends one person, it should not be said. Period. This is yoga.

Unfortunately, people like you who claim to be all about love and peace, do a huge disservice to the progress of love and peace on this planet, by preventing criticism of genuine evils in society and allowing them to continue unabated.

Let me ask you an honest question: Do you think we should ignore what the Nazis did and stop teaching that history?

I have not prevented anyone from expressing their opinion. Opinions can be expressed in such a way as not to offend. And what good would it do to keep harboring these ill views of Abrahamic religions? What violence occurred in the name of religion is well documented in history books. It is taught in school. It is taught in religion class. It is taught with the sincere hope that these blemishes will never happen again. It has taught us all a lesson. And no, we should not stop teaching what the Nazi’s did. Just like I don’t think we should stop teaching about the crusades, etc. I do not judge all Germans today based on what atrocities the Nazi’s carried out in WWII. You should not judge all Abrahamic religions based on what was done many years ago. No one has denied these things. Just as you should not deny some of the violence in India, albeit more in recent times.

And I will ignore the comment about, “people like me” as it doesn’t deserve a reply.

#36

I love olives :wink:

When one speaks the truth, they must consider what is said, how it is said and if it will harm someone. If you speak the truth and it has negative consequences it is better to say nothing. (Satya) And if you are not responsible with ‘the truth’ it can be used as a weapon against others causing them harm (Ahimsa) With Ahimsa, one’s thoughts words and actions are non-violent. You would not harm another person because you realize as an individual you are intimately connected to life’s fabric.

So, as I see it, the truth about the Abrahamic religions being violent, if practicing Ahimsa and Satya, can be said in such a way as to not offend. If it offends one person, it should not be said. Period. This is yoga.

This is based on your interpretation of Satya. In my interpretation Satya is simply facts, and as facts will always remain facts, I have no trouble stating a fact.

In Vidur Niti(Vidur’s policy) we should always speak truth. First truth should be spoken if it is factual, if it factual, but not agreeable then it should not be spoken. If it factual and agreeable but causes harm, then it should not be spoken. But if it is righteous then it should be spoken.

It is right to expose the Abrahamic religions for the following reasons

  1. We need to be clear about the history of our planet. History lets us know about the mistakes of the past and in knowing our mistakes of the past we know why our present is as it is, and then can move on into the future by doing something new

  2. Abrahamic religions still are doing what they have done in the past, albeit on a lesser scale. Therefore it behoves responsible members of these religions to make drastic reforms.

  3. Abrahamic ideology is still the dominant ideology on this planet. This ideology is responsible for our history of death and destruction and for the dire state of our planet today. We must recognise this and replace this ideology.

This is why the truth needs to be told that Abrahamic religions need to be gone from this planet. They had their chance and they have shown us they are cancers in our history. Just as one gets rid of a bad habit in Yoga, likewise we need to get rid of these habits. These are regressive, outdated institutions. Get rid of them and replace them with what works.

In science you get rid of bad hypothesis, you don’t hold onto them. Similarly Abrahamic religions are bad religions, no rational person should hold onto them.

Move over Abraham. Welcome Brahma.

#37

SD,

Don’t you see you are picking and choosing interpretations based on your need? I believe it is universally accepted that Ahimsa is non violence in thoughts words and actions (self and others) and Satya is speaking truth, if it harms no one. Why would you want to speak the truth (as you see it) if it hurts the one you speak the truth to? Does this not go against what you believe in? Again, I do believe we can have a discussion regarding religion and share opposing viewpoints, even debate them without hurting others. Deep down SD, I do believe you care and don’t want to hurt anyone. Tap into that and your arguments will be much more effective instead of offensive.

If you like olives, I’m still holding out that branch for you!

#38

Again, I do believe we can have a discussion regarding religion and share opposing viewpoints, even debate them without hurting others.

Pretty difficult, and almost impossible. If you share an opposing viewpoint with somebody that negates their own, they are going to be offended on some level. In your case you hold the view that all religions are equal and teach love and compassion etc, and I hold the view that they are not and some religions are superior to others. This offends you.

My viewpoint is that Abrahamic religions are bad religions. How can I argue this viewpoint so that it does not offend anybody? :wink:

#39

Don’t you see you are picking and choosing interpretations based on your need? I believe it is universally accepted that Ahimsa is non violence in thoughts words and actions (self and others) and Satya is speaking truth, if it harms no one.

Nope, Satya simply means “truth” as in speaking the truth. There is no consideration about whether it is harmful or not. In fact I know the Hindu tradition very well, and speaking truth has always been considered one of the highest values to live by. As I have pointed out in the past, the formal debating culture in India was ruthless.

I really think you should not hide from truth. You should learn to face it. It may hurt sometimes, but it is the truth and it is going to remain the truth.

#40

Maybe try asking people to explain the violence in their religion in a non-threatening way. Say something good first (we can always find some good) before bringing up a negative.

It’s like when I, or others, have tried to explain how you are not quite viewing Abrahamic religions in the right light, and you have stated Hinduism is superior, we usually start the post with acknowledging that we do admire Hinduism, or are grateful to Hinduism for what they have shared. So you see my point? You can make your point far better with a touch of kindness and compassion than without it. People will look at facts presented with kindness and that will resonate with them. That will encourage them to reflect, investigate, ask questions without only looking at ways to counter an argument. This way, if so desired or if ready, they will accept the truth.

Religion is a tough subject to debate in any circle. People are passionate about their beliefs. If you tell them they are wrong, they will defend. It matters not what you say. But in looking at the bigger picture we need to do so with eyes opened to embracing knowledge we had not known before. Sometimes that means saying, “You are right”. We have said this many times to you regarding the violence and teachings in the bible. We have said you are right! But we also want you to see the bigger picture of what the teachings are truly about. You are looking at some things, like all of us do from time to time, through a narrow scope. You are only seeing what is directly in front of you. Try to understand from the many knowledgeable Christian people on this forum how you are not seeing things as they are actually taught. Herein lies that olive branch. Do you prefer green or black olives?

#41

Green olives.

Now therein lies the problem. The teachings of violence in the bible which tell you to stone and burn to death and kill innocent people are not excusable in any circumstance or any context. So what do I tell a Christian who justifies this?

#42

You won’t find a Christian that justifies this. This is what we have been trying to tell you all along. See the bigger picture Surya Deva! It is there! Christians take away lessons learned from the Bible. What to do and what not to do. Many of the violent stories in the Bible, while talking about inflicting violence, were meant as a means of learning of what not to do against our fellow man. People who took what the Bible said literally, including those in power, are but a select few. Just as you justify some of what is going on in India with Fundamentalists/extremists. Christianity also has them and they distort the teachings to suit their needs.

I like green olives too! Something in common between us! In particular green olives stuffed with Jalapeno peppers or blue cheese. Yum!

#43

I do think we’ve deviated from original thread. My apologies!