The difference is Yogiadam that Yoga produces consistent and replicable results which what makes it scientific. In modern science we have studied Yoga and we have verified all of its predicates. I think you should look into these studies.
If you think about it Yoga should produce replicable results because it is a controlled experiment. You have to control for variables that can affect your consciousness(posture, breathing, thoughts) as soon as you have stabalized them you commence the experiment by just letting your consciousness go inwards by focussing on only one object(another control) then we simply document what happenes. As the publication above shows what happens is remarkably consistent. Many consciousness researchers have produced similar maps of the stages one passes through and they are more or less identical with ancient Yogic maps.
Yoga is basically a science where the human itself becomes the experiment.
I encourage you to try out the experiment yourself. However, as I said you are going to have to commit to the training.
There is no greater proof than direct experience.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32865]I encourage you to try out the experiment yourself. However, as I said you are going to have to commit to the training.
There is no greater proof than direct experience.[/QUOTE]
There’s a difference between studying yoga scientifically, and making claims that yoga fills in all the unknown stuff science can’t answer. ALL religions, excluding none, claim that they are a science and answer all the questions. They distort facts to fit their belief system, which by definition, is no longer science.
I know there is no use in me going on about this, cause anyone who claims to have the answers, also have or the justification for the claims. All religions have phenomenal immune systems.
All this aside, I do practice Yoga everyday, I only just finished my practice an hour a go, and I feel amazing!
However, by studying Yoga scientifically we have been able to verify all those claims that Yoga makes about higher levels of consciousness, extrasensory abilities, ultimate states of pure bliss and love, subtle energy systems in our body, and the profound changes Yoga makes to your being:
Lesh (1970c) reported that certain experiences occur during the practice of meditation that seem to be either unexplainable or indicative of a higher potential of perception, bordering on the extrasensory or parapsychological. As we have already pointed out, many of the siddhis or supernormal powers, and vibhutis, or perfections, of Hindu Buddhist practice are paranormal.
Altered Body Image and Ego Boundaries
Kornfield (1979, 1983) reported that during insight meditation some people experienced an altered body image. Goleman (1978-79) stated that by continually focusing on the object of meditation, one sometimes makes a total break with normal consciousness. The mind sinks into the object and remains fixed in it, and the awareness of one’s body vanishes. Woolfolk et al. (1976) noted that certain subjects experienced a complete loss of body feeling. Deikman (1966a) reported that meditators sometimes experienced alterations in ego boundaries, all in the direction of fluidity and breakdown of the usual subject-object differentiation.
Energy and Excitement
Kornfield (1979) reported that spontaneous body movements, often described as unstressing and releasing, along with intense emotions and mood swings, are common during insight meditation retreats. Shimano and Douglas (1975) described a remarkable build-up of energy during zazen that often became apparent after several days of a meditation retreat. Others have reported the increased energy released by meditation [see Kornfield (1979), Krippner and Maliszewski (1978), Piggins and Morgan (1977-78), Davidson (1976), and Maupin (1965)].
Bliss
West (1980b, 1980c) said his subjects used these terms to describe their meditative state: feelings of quiet, calmness, and peace; pleasant feelings; warm contentedness; relaxation beyond thought; and a feeling of being suspended in deep warmth. Kornfield (1979) said that rapture and bliss states are common at insight meditation retreats and are usually related to increased concentration and tranquility. Goleman (1978-79) said that meditation brings about rapturous feelings that cause goose flesh, tremor in the limbs, the sensation of levitation, and other attributes of rapture. He said that sublime happiness sometimes suffused the meditator’s body, accompanied by an unprecedented never-ending bliss, which motivates the meditator to tell others of this extraordinary experience. Farrow (1977) said that during the deepest phases of meditation, subjects report that thinking settles down to a state of pure awareness or unbounded bliss, accompanied by prolonged periods of almost no breathing.
Hence from the above we can show that none of those things are beliefs, these are replicable experiences that people undergo when doing Yoga. In other words they are real phenomena. So the scales is right Yoga is filling in what modern science cannot. That is consciousness.
You can only see what your senses and instruments are sensitive enough to see. I cannot see radio waves, ultraviolet light, infrared radiation, hear ultrasonic and infrasonic, I cannot see atoms, quarks and quantum forces, black hole does this mean none of those things exist? There is a limit to what we can see as human beings and there a limit to what we can know even with the best instruments we can construct. Yoga allows us to go beyond those limits by reversing the process of perception taking us backwards so we can see everything that makes up the world and it is all done within consciousness itself.
Like I said do the practice of Yoga(asana, pranayama, meditation) and you will confirm for youself everything Yoga says. You will out find about your subtle energy body and the pranic systems, you will out about the great potentials that reside within you and the kundalini at the base of your spine, you will find out about the various powers you have(siddhis) you will find out the truth of your soul, karma and your past lives and the other planes of existence.
But if you do not do this you will never find out. If all of this is true you are the one missing out. Like I keep saying. It is your loss or your gain. If you truly are a skeptic you need to inquire and find out for yourself. I did the same and started out a skeptic and an atheist and I have discoverred a lot through Yoga now through my practice. A lot of my knowledge is based on solid research not an exercise in faith. I am quite allergic to faith actually
If it is empirical proof you want you want there is no other way to find out about supersensory realities other than by practicing Yoga. As it is the only science in the world that works at refining your perception so you can see beyond and that will actualise your highest potentials.
Look, I’m not really fussed what you believe at the end of the day. If it makes you happy, then that’s all that matters. I’m not here to dictate how one should think. I do practice yoga everyday, and it’s great! I know we can all agree on that. As far as the metaphysical claims are concerned, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
It is not really a case of making me happy. If it is true it is true. Atomic energy barely makes anybody happy, but we cant deny the fact that it exists.
It is your claim that these are beliefs that is being challenged here. The studies I cited above shows these are not beliefs but actual realities.
I notice time and again how materialists accuse others of “beliefs” and pretend they have no beliefs themselves. Well, sorry but when you go around telling people that the brain is the cause of their thought and chemicals the cause of their emotions, you are indeed speaking from beliefs. Your belief system is materialism. You really are no different to any other religious believer. So you really should introspect a bit before you criticise others belief systems. You are not immune from criticism yourself.
We can only know about the material world with any certainty. The metaphysical world, can’t be known. I’m an agnostic and make no ultimate truth claims, so philosophically I don’t have any ultimate beliefs . I know you like the idea that there exists a science that can observe the metaphysical world, and that you have evidence, and that’s fine. If I was religious, I’d probably develop ‘scientific evidence’, to back it up as well. I’m not a ‘right fighter’, so I don’t care what you believe and why you believe it. I’m not interested in convincing you otherwise. If you want to call it science, then that’s your right as a human. We will disagree, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
[QUOTE=YogiAdam;32863]Surely you can see my issue with this??.. All we could possibly know for certain about our universe must be answered with scientific means. Science don’t have all the answers, but that doesn’t mean we should fill in the gaps.
The statement ‘when you get to the end of your science, use yoga’ is a very, very weak philosophical statement, because the answer is subject to ones own personal preferences… you could just as easily have said 'when you get to the end of science, use the bible, or the Quran, or the book of morman, or an astrological star chart, or pull an answer out of a hat. ALL THOSE ANSWERS HAVE THE SAME VALIDITY AS EACH OTHER.
The problem is, humans don’t like to admit they don’t know something, They want all the answers, even if it means settling for superstition. We humans, would rather except a conspiracy theory, than no theory at all.[/QUOTE]
There is a vast underlying subtle reality that is by nature beyond the reach of modern science, mathematics, chemistry, and physics.
It is beyond lower rational mind and the perception of the the gross unrefined senses.
This underlying subtle reality can be reached through the yoga.
Not by asana alone but by using each branch in sequence.
Asana / The Good seat. Pranayam/Regulation of energy. Pratyahar/ Withdrawl. dharana / concentration. Dhyana / Meditation. Samadhi / Absorption.
These are the tools the yogi uses to explore himself, the subtle realms, the nature of the phenominal universe and so on.
Until you’ve done so and gained the experience from doing it you will continue to grip to your viewpoint.
It is useless to argue with you.
Go see for yourself.
Step out with a sense of adventure, curiosity. Read scripture to build faith if you need to. Practice all the limbs. Don’t cling to your views. Your faith in the practice will be strengthened by the carrots along the way. Take it all the way to the end.
If you practice in this way YOU WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED!!!
It is not myself who calls it a science. We have always called yoga a science in India. It is called paravidya(higher science) We called it a science for a very good reason because it produces consistent, objective and replicable results. This is by definition science. If it did not produce consistent, objective and replicable results it would not be a science. This is why I am challenging your statement this is a belief or a religion, especially in light of the fact that I have provided you with the scientific evidence.
We can know not just about the material world with certainty but also the mental world. Why do you factor the mental world out as if it is insigificant? It is far from insigificant it is the most intimate and important world we know. The problem with your thinking is that you have decided to exclude a whole dimension of existence and just look at the material world in isolation as if it exists separately from our mind(big assumption) This is not a scientific attitude at all. The fact of the matter is the world of mind can be studied and investigated just as rigorously as the material world can be, and in India a lot of our research has been in this area. We have proven that it is possible to have certain knowledge of the mind and we have created the science of Yoga in order to do that.
Don’t go around telling us our sciences is not a science and your sciences are sciences. You will not make friends with us by discrediting our thousands of years of research into mind sciences. You are currently using our science and you know yourself the benefits it gives and all of that whether you like it or not is built on Hindu metaphysics. It works because our metaphysics is right.
[QUOTE=The Scales;32885]There is a vast underlying subtle reality that is by nature beyond the reach of modern science, mathematics, chemistry, and physics. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=YogiAdam;32863]The problem is, humans don’t like to admit they don’t know something.[/QUOTE]
Hi Adam,
I am on a similar journey, so I can understand/ relate to how overwhelming everything can become!
Speaking for myself, what keeps me sane, is always reconnecting with my ‘gut’. Asking myself how does something make me feel, or how does is serve me. This does not involve looking to science, or rationalising or intellectualising…it simply means [U]feeling[/U].
I don’t claim to have all the answers, and let’s face it no scientist/ academic/ guru/ saint etc does. But what do they all do right? They all followed their own truth and path, which ultimately lead to their own Samadhi …and we are simply trying to find our path based on our truth.
I guess I’m lucky as I have ‘blind faith’, so no matter what I discover or learn, I ultimately know ‘my truth’, as I can feel it so intensely I can’t deny it.
Good luck, I do wish you all the best in your very curious and courageous journey.
Adam,
When you get to the Baghavad Gita, you will find a beautiful metaphor in an archer, Arjuna, who is the hero of the story and who represents you and where you are very well, I think. Think of knowledge, science, the mind, the brain, etc., as the drawing, holding and aiming of an arrow in the bow. They help you to read, feel and sense, the distance, angle, the height, you feel the wind on your cheek? But there’s only so much you can do to prepare…and there comes the point when you have to let that arrow go. That’s hard because once you do, it’s really over, isn’t it? There’s no more steering it. All the science comes to an end and nature takes over, and you won’t know for sure if the science is right until the arrow either finds its target or not. That’s exactly the point you’re at. You have the arrow drawn back and you want to take the shot, but you can’t let go, because you fear not having the verification, validation, acceptance, approval, justification, comfort, etc., all the externals that science provides and that you’re very much attached to, they’re gone (it’s also the simple beauty of sport I might add). You might be a fantastic archer, and you might be quite confident in the science, but you won’t know for sure. Isn’t that exciting? That’s where you are buddy.
Be now
The stronger warrior
Oh mighty Arjun,
Let thine arrow fly and Behold!
The yoga guideth thee.
-Krishna-
And that’s really the beginning of a spiritual journey, in my view. You listen, learn, practice, but then there will come the day when no one but yourself can take that next step for you, can tell you…“Don’t be afraid Adam…this way is the right way. This is the way to success.” No it won’t happen like that. You are going to be completely, 100% alone, without science, without knowledge, without your brain, and you’re going to love it.
[QUOTE=omamana;32904]
Speaking for myself, what keeps me sane, is always reconnecting with my ?gut?. Asking myself how does something make me feel, or how does is serve me. This does not involve looking to science, or rationalising or intellectualising…it simply means [U]feeling[/U].
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=siva;32947]Adam,
When you get to the Baghavad Gita, you will find a beautiful metaphor in an archer, Arjuna, who is the hero of the story and who represents you and where you are very well, I think. Think of knowledge, science, the mind, the brain, etc., as the drawing, holding and aiming of an arrow in the bow. They help you to read, feel and sense, the distance, angle, the height, you feel the wind on your cheek? But there’s only so much you can do to prepare…and there comes the point when you have to let that arrow go. That’s hard because once you do, it’s really over, isn’t it? There’s no more steering it. All the science comes to an end and nature takes over, and you won’t know for sure if the science is right until the arrow either finds its target or not. That’s exactly the point you’re at. You have the arrow drawn back and you want to take the shot, but you can’t let go, because you fear not having the verification, validation, acceptance, approval, justification, comfort, etc., all the externals that science provides and that you’re very much attached to, they’re gone (it’s also the simple beauty of sport I might add). You might be a fantastic archer, and you might be quite confident in the science, but you won’t know for sure. Isn’t that exciting? That’s where you are buddy.
Be now
The stronger warrior
Oh mighty Arjun,
Let thine arrow fly and Behold!
The yoga guideth thee.
-Krishna-
And that’s really the beginning of a spiritual journey, in my view. You listen, learn, practice, but then there will come the day when no one but yourself can take that next step for you, can tell you…“Don’t be afraid Adam…this way is the right way. This is the way to success.” No it won’t happen like that. You are going to be completely, 100% alone, without science, without knowledge, without your brain, and you’re going to love it.
peace brother,
siva[/QUOTE]
More beautiful truth!
Science without faith is pointless. What do I mean when I say that?
I mean that science can only explain so much - actually, very little. The BIG questions remain unanswered. We are no nearer answering those questions, questions like:
How is life possible?
How does the single cell that is created from the egg and sperm at fertilization know what to do next - what is the organizing force that allows that cell to become a human being?
How does the seed grow into an oak tree?
What is the power that keeps the planets in their orbits, perfectly?
To dedicate a lifetime purely to science, is a cold, lonely, futile path. To need a rational explanation for everything you do, say, and believe in is equally cold and lonely. Many scientists come to understand this later in life.
If you investigate, you will find that the greatest scientists - like Einstein and Bohm… are deeply spiritual, faithful people. The REASON for their greatness was thay they balanced their need for rational understanding with intuitive wisdom and faith.
Investigate this and you will see - start with Einstein.
[QUOTE=omamana;32904]Speaking for myself, what keeps me sane, is always reconnecting with my ?gut?. Asking myself how does something make me feel, or how does is serve me. This does not involve looking to science, or rationalising or intellectualising…it simply means [U]feeling[/U]…[/QUOTE]
Fantastic! This is so refreshing. This reminds me of what Dr Phil always says -“would you rather be right all the timer or happy?” "what’s more important, winning an argument or being happy?"
I am gaining insight to understand that in order to be happy, you need to stop searching for truth, and start looking for happiness… makes sense.
It makes the journey very difficult when people make claims that they know everything. No scientist or philosopher would claim to know everything. I’m really glad to hear that there are people who practice the yoga, who are honest, mature and intelligent enough, not to claim to hold the answers.
Science without faith is pointless. What do I mean when I say that?
I mean that science can only explain so much - actually, very little. The BIG questions remain unanswered. We are no nearer answering those questions, questions like[/QUOTE]
Science without faith is not pointless, your ego just doesn’t like the idea that you can’t know it all. Science is limited, so faith comes along and fills in the missing gaps with bullshit that is just made up. It seems like so many humans just can’t handle saying “I don’t know”.
[QUOTE=YogiAdam;32997]Science without faith is not pointless, your ego just doesn’t like the idea that you can’t know it all. Science is limited, so faith comes along and fills in the missing gaps with bullshit that is just made up. It seems like so many humans just can’t handle saying “I don’t know”.[/QUOTE]
You completely misunderstand me. But I can’t be bothered to explain anymore, because you don’t listen.
Over and out.
[QUOTE=benralston;32998]You completely misunderstand me. But I can’t be bothered to explain anymore, because you don’t listen.
Over and out.[/QUOTE]
I do listen, and I actually know where your coming form, cause I used to be a “Christian scientist” (contradiction in terms lol), it’s just that we don’t agree. I don’t think that this is about either parties misunderstanding, we just fundamentally disagree.
I would like to apologies for my last message though. I reread it, and I think it’s a bit strident and aggressive. I’m all about kind, useful speech, but sometimes my passion can get the better of me.
[QUOTE=YogiAdam;33001]I do listen, and I actually know where your coming form, cause I used to be a “Christian scientist” (contradiction in terms lol), it’s just that we don’t agree. I don’t think that this is about either parties misunderstanding, we just fundamentally disagree.
I would like to apologies for my last message though. I reread it, and I think it’s a bit strident and aggressive. I’m all about kind, useful speech, but sometimes my passion can get the better of me.[/QUOTE]
Ok, apology accepted. Thank you, no hard feelings.
I think perhaps my language was also a little too hard - I don’t mean that Science is pointless. I also LOVE it.
But it’s like trying to live your whole life using only one hand. Very limiting.
However, if you apply science AND spirituality TOGETHER… then you can really get somewhere.
After all, science is the search for TRUTH - for the underlying reality behind existence - right? Can we agree on that?
And Spirituality is what? also the search for TRUTH!! Right?
So they are trying to do the same thing, but simply from different angles.
Now, as you said yourself Adam - ‘you can’t know it all’. That’s where faith is necessary. There are certain things that our neo-cortex brain will never understand.
Those very things can be known through the wisdom and love, and faith, that is the very purpose of spiritual practice.
By all means, try to apply a rational, scientific understanding to life. I do!
But to demand a scientific explanation for everything makes you an atheist, and it’s really, in my opinion, a foolish, pointless belief system.
Einstein said something like:
“There are two ways of looking at life - one is that there are no miracles.
The other is that everything is a miracle.”
I choose the second way. But I dont’ stop trying to explain the miracles either!
