Is Yoga Hinduism?

I can just imagine the uproar with the Chinese if some ignorant Westerner claimed Qigong was not theirs, and they borrowed it from somebody else :smiley:

Come on Indian people grow a backbone. Yes, respect other civilisations, but don’t let them undermine yours. You are descendents of one of the most glorious civilisations that ever been on this planet. No other civilisation on this planet has equalled us in economic, political, scientific and technological power that we once commanded on this planet. You can verify these facts for yourself. Hindu India had a 32.9% of the total econonomy of this planet from 1AD to 1000AD. Even America today does not have that. We have pretty much dominated this entire planet from 7000BCE to 1000AD. We are the great Aryans(not a racial designation, a cultural one) And even Western intellectuals have recognised what we did. First universities, first hospitals, first industries, first planned and urban cities. Our contributions to human civilisation are absolutely vast. Today it is our Yoga, Ayurveda and Vedanta that is sought after in the West. Be proud.

[QUOTE=Philippe*;36814]Yoga does not teach dogma but it teaches satya, truth. Truth matters, even if the mental realm is bound to ignorance to some extent. Whoever practices Yoga and has gratitude for the sages of the past will understand the importance of not spreading confusion about something like Yoga. There is an Upanishadic saying :

Truth alone triumphs (satyameva jayate which is the motto of India); not falsehood.
Through truth the divine path is spread out by which
the sages whose desires have been completely fulfilled,
reach where that supreme treasure of Truth resides

Philippe[/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree Philippe. If you ever see me meditate I always begin my meditation with an invocation to the Vedic masters, thanking them for finding this great wisdom and science via which I can better myself and humbling myself to them, and asking for their blessings.

Do you think Lotusgirl does this when she starts her Yoga classes? Do the Vedic masters who discovered this science ever get mentioned in her classes?

I said earlier to her would she tell her students of the Hindu origins of Yoga and tell them that they can practice it for free at the local Hindu temple?

The motivation behind these lies being spread in the West about Yoga which says ridiculous things like “Yoga is older than Hinduism” and the campaign to disassociate Hinduism from Yoga is purely economic and nothing else i.e., motivated by greed. Yoga is a huge money spinner today and the more secular they can make it look, the more money they can make from it by attracting more people, especially from other religions. If this was not true, India would never had decided to patent Yoga as it is doing now.

What is going on in the West right now vis Yoga is called plagiarism, which is a form of theft. That is not giving credit to the original authors and justifying something as their own. Here the reason being given is “Hinduism borrowed it, therefore we can borrow it as well” which is a blatant lie.

Namaste Lostontheway,

Yoga is a vast term, and not all that comes under the term is being practiced by people in west. Majority of them practice the physical postures. But ancient Indians were not the only ones who did body exercises. There are many cultures who have stretching as part of their physical culture. For example contortionists of Europe and Americas do so many postures similar to what is done in Yoga postures. Kung fu and other martial art practitioners also do similar things. The balle dancers and gymnasts from all over the world do such things. Hindus do not have any exclusive rights on such physical culture.

If this was the case then gymanstics, Kung fu andcontortionism would be a hundred billion dollar industry + and not Yoga. If people could get the same benefits from these disciplines, then Yoga would not be so sought after. Yoga obviously offers something more desirable hence why it is sought after.

The difference between asanas in Yoga and other physical exercises is the asanas are designed to stimulate certain glands of the body. In Yogic speech they open up certain pathways of energy, clear blockages, leading to better flow of energy. The breathing exercises are designed to balance the solar and lunar energy channels(ida and pingala) and to manipulate prana and apana to cause the Kundalini energy at the base of the spine to rise. Hatha Yoga which focusses primarily on asanas and pranayama is designed to faciliate the rise of the Kundalini energy.

If one is doing nothing other than asanas then they are not even doing Hatha Yoga.

[B]Yoga postures in themselves are not spiritual or religious[/B]
Yoga postures never held any high place in Hindu religion either. The postures were a part of a small branch of Hatha Yoga and their main aim was NOT religious but to simply keep the body healthy. The word Asana in Patanjali Sutra does not refer to the numerous postures being done today. The role of asana in Patanjali sutras is to sit in a position so that a person that properly concentrate his/her mind. This is also written in Geeta in which it is told that a practitioner should sit and concentrate on the tip of his nose. That was all that Lord Krishna had to do with an asana. To practice concentration on the tip of one’s nose one did not have to do either splits or inversions.

You are making several false statements here. If you read the Hatha Yoga Pradipika it makes it very clear its goal is spiritual. The practice of asanas in India has been going on for thousands of years, and it was done not to just keep the body healthy, but for spiritual purposes. Yoga has always been a spiritual culture, it has never been a physical culture.

[B]Modern Day Yoga Practice was packaged for the west[/B]
The modern day Yoga practice largely consists of yoga postures and has been packaged for the west by Sri BKS Iyengar and Sri Pattabhi Jois. They have built it into a beautiful system and the west in its part has proven to be EXCELLENT students of yoga postures. This is amply proven by so many certified Iyengar, Vinyasa and other yoga-styles teachers. India does not have any culture of doing yoga postures to perfection. This culture is no longer Hindu in flavour.

Sri BKS Iyengar has never called it Iyengar Yoga, he called it Hatha Yoga. His followers to honour him called it “Iyengar Yoga” He never claimed to have created a new Yoga, but what he did do was create routines on how to do Yoga. Yoga had already reached a high degree of perfection in India, that is why you find so many Hatha Yogis, Nathas in India. Again, this tradition has been going on for thousands of years. The Western person is not practicing Yoga with the same zeal Hatha Yogis praticed it with, because most of them are concerned only with the physical benefits, one of the main ones being weight loss :smiley:

[B]West is much more body aware, they are better students[/B]
Majority of citizens of Western countries are much more aware of body-culture than most Indians. There is a long tradition of gymnastics in their schools. Small school girls can do beautiful forward and back bends! And that too without anything to do with yoga or India. I am yet to see any housewife of an Indian household who can do a split. On the other hand in a single city in America or Canada you would find not but many.

We don’t really know what the physical fitness of Indian people was like prior to the British coming India. Since, the British came to India, India became a poor country, within the period of British rule India suffered several major famines which killed tens of millions of people a go, and the vast population became poor and has to resort to rural occupations. Traditional knowledge systems were outlawed so Indians became illiterate and jobless. Then this was replaced with the British education system to educate an elite few. Since then India has not been a Hindu country, but it has been a Western country. Its education, healthcare, legal system and political systems are all Western. Thus Indian people today are not representative of Hinduism.

You know it is actually quite ironic I am having to tell you this. All black people know what the West did to them. All Chinese people know what the West did to them. None of them have forgotten and still today remember the atrocities inflicted on them. Western history books have been forced to tell this history because of the stand they have made. Indian people, on the other hand, have made no stand, and because of this Western history books do not teach their history. This is a big shame on Indians.

A civilisation is nothing if it does not remember its history. One way to erase a civilisation is to erase its history.

[B]Modern day Yoga is Buddhistic[/B]
Almost all of the Hindu meditations consist of concentration of mind at one point. Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras are also about concentration. Simple concentration of mind which is by and by developed to a great degree. This is known as ekagrata or one pointedness. Swami Vivekananda in his Raj-Yoga lectures discusses this in detail.
BUT while modern day popular practice of Yoga postures does NOT consist of one-pointedness of mind. It consists of a spread out awareness of the body. It consists of mindfullness not concentration. This is very important yet subtle difference. And this mindfulness is inspired not by hinduism but by Buddhism. The Vipassana meditation as taught by the Theravada school of Buddhism, by the teachers such as Sri Goenka is all about this only. Gautama Buddha attained the Truth using this meditation only. Mindfullness. And this is THE MOST pervasive and popular approach towards meditation and spiritual development being used both in and outside Yoga practice all over the world. and this practice is NOT Hindu. It is Buddhist.

I am not sure where you got this nonsensical idea from. Buddha learned all his meditation techniques from Hindus. These meditation techniques were not invented by Buddhists. Breathing meditation, which is essentially what Vipasana is, is one the oldest forms of meditation in the world. There is even evidence that the mystery schools in Egypt practiced it. The oldest description of any meditation technique is found in the Upanishads.

[B]Effect of the likes of J. Krishnamurti[/B]
Other modern teachers like J. Krishnamurti and more recent Eckhart Tolle teach similar things. They have a large global influence and it shows in the common people’s approach to spirituality. People talk about mind awareness in everyday talk. Its all over hollywood movies too. You can see this approach or philosophy in films like Star Wars! All this is effects of Buddhism as well as these modern teachers. This is also the case with Yoga practice in west.

No it isn’t. J. Krishnamuriti, Eckhat Tolle and many other modern teachers borrow from the Eastern religions: Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism. Not just Buddhism. In fact the vast majority of new age spirituality borrows from Hinduism more than any other religion. “Higher self” for example is the teaching of Atman in Hinduism. Thervada Buddhism has no Self. The ideas of physical, astral, mental and causal body are Hindu(Buddhism teaches anata) The proliferators of new-age religion are all Hindu gurus. Swami Vivekananda, Swami Yogananda, Swami Muktananda, Ramana Maharishi, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. The massive proliferation of Yoga is due people like this, and not due to any Buddhists. Even new-age ideas about self-realization, spiritual evolution and karma are all Hindu, not buddhist.

If you read most scholarly articles on the advent of new-age religious movement they trace it back to Hinduism.

[B]The child has become a man and left the home[/B]
The case is like a child being born and then leaving home for good because he knows he can never truly grow as a person in his small home. Yoga might have been born in India, but the child has become a man and has left the home. He now has many homes all over the globe. He is no longer your jungle boy.

The truth is, the man has left the home and become a child. Yoga has devolved in the West, not evolved. Yoga originally was a very precise science of spirituality and self-realization which produced great masters. Now it has become nothing more than a physical culture and a weight-loss gimmick. You call this evolvement?

It was due to people like you that I left Sikhism. For some reason you have been taught to disrespect, undermine and hate Hindus. When you believe pretty much exactly what we believe and belong to the same great tradition of Sanatana Dharma. You separatist politics is creating unnecessary divides between Hindus and Sikhs. You even seem to love the Muslims more than us, when it was the Muslims that killed, maimed and raped Sikhs. Go to the Gudwara and the atrocities of the Muslims on the Sikh people is recorded in graphic detail. Similarly, have you forgotten the Jaleyawala Bagh massacre by the British? When did Hindus ever persecue the Sikhs? Other than the Hindu-Sikh riots after Indira Gandhi’s assassination which took place because of Sikh fundamentalism, nowhere in the entire history of India have Hindus ever persecuted the Sikhs. We are part of the same religion. I am so happy that my Sikh family and relatives do not think like you.

There it goes again. Its an immature destruction of one’s own cause. Time to move on. Thanks everybody.

I thought we had come to an agreement that Yoga originated in Hinduism and is a Yoga practice. Then I also agreed that non-Hindus could practice Yoga and Yoga could be integrated by other religions.

Then somebody went along and said again, “Yoga is older than Hinduism” and “Hinduism borrowed Yoga” The central issue here is respect. What I am doing here is nothing different than what a Chinese person would do if somebody said “Qigong is older than Taoism” and “Taoism borrowed Qigong”

Hindu people are just as proud as the Chinese people. You will get burnt if you disrespect our culture and heritage.

Lotus girl said, "I’m not doubting that yoga is a Hindu practice "

Suhas Tambe said, " So, if behind all the arguments, quotations, interpretations, evidence, refutals and what not, a simple expectation was “Just respect the fact that you are doing a formal Hindu practice” the end is fair enough, and consequently, the means too. "

Then later you go back to saying

“Some basic facts remain mostly accepted like Yoga came first and Hinduism followed.”

You broke the agreement :wink:

You have ears, but do not listen.

You have a mind, but it is not open.

I don’t like you starting off a post with “if some ignorant westerner”, or mock me for how I teach my class or how I meditate. You then add a smiley face as if that takes the hurt away. Do you honestly think anyone will take you seriously or listen to you when you say things like that? Do you?

You believe what you want. I shall practice yoga with respect to the Hindu’s. I will not acknowledge Hinduism is yoga or yoga is Hinduism. I agree with the other Indians who have posted. Yoga is owned by no one. It is universal. It is a path that many can take regardless of religion. Hinduism, as a religion, came into being centuries after there was any mention or drawing of yoga postures. Meditation is universal also. You don’t own that. Are they both port of your religion…well yes! I celebrate that. You are a very old and admired religion with many wonderful insights. But not the only insights.

Your eyes and mind need to be opened Surya to see the beauty that surrounds you. You espouse hatred and intolerance and I know that is not the Hindu way.

I am FINISHED with this thread. Amen and Hallejuja!

Namaste, I am too done with this thread.

You have already admitted Yoga is a Hindu practice. Now you are going back on your own statement, so this basically speaks for how much credibility your statements have.

You will not admit that Yoga is Hinduism or Hinduism is Yoga because you have economic interests. The issue here is not whether Yoga is universal or not. The issue here is respect. You are failing to give credit to the originators of Yoga. The Hindus. You are making absolutely ridiculous claims that Hinduism came after Yoga, when we know that Hinduism was practiced in the Indus valley civilisation where we also see the first physical evidence of Yoga being practiced. The first mention of Yoga is in Hindu scriptures. You do not find it anywhere else. Therefore it was originated by the Hindus.

You can continue to hold onto the delusion that Yoga was not originated by the Hindus, but it will be a delusion and nothing else. The facts are clearly showing Yoga is Hindu. The official Hindu body of America is saying Yoga is Hindu. The official Christian organizations are saying Yoga is Hindu. The official Islamic bodies of three major Islamic countries(Indonesia, Malasiya, Eygpt) are saying Yoga is Hindu. The leading scholar of Yoga in the West Georg Feueurstein is saying Yoga is Hindu as well. Hindu professors are saying Yoga is Hindu.

How you can in good conscience deny what is a blatant fact is a mystery I don’t care to solve now. You clearly prefer to believe whatever feels good to you rather what than what is truth. Ironically one of Yogas highest yamas is Satya. Speak truth. Think Truth. Act Truthfully. I do not believe you have done this at all in this discussion.

From my side I am done in this discussion. Namaste.

Yoga is not Hinduism. Yoga is what some ancients hindus used to do. But that all has changed. Yoga is now global in nature just as English language is not British anymore.
When Indians speak English language they are not being british and neither is there flavour of language british. It is a language which has become an independant entity of its own. That is why the terms ‘American English’, ‘Indian English’ are used!

#Asana practice is nowhere religious at all, even a child can understand this.
#Even practice of pranayama is not religious. It is a technique, there is nothing religious about it.

Beyond this if one adopts other Hindu belief systems then and only then the realm of religion starts.

If Surya Deva or any other has a problem with this, well they need to get over it and learn to live with it. Cos no amount of religious fundamentalist/fanatic posting over here is going to make us change our minds.

#Asana practice is nowhere religious at all, even a child can understand this.
#Even practice of pranayama is not religious. It is a technique, there is nothing religious about it.

Meditation is nowhere religious at all. It is a technique.

Ayurveda is not religious. It is a health care system.

Vedanta is not religious. It is a philosophy.

Then Hinduism which is the sum of above is is not religious either. It is a science and philosophy. What does “Vedic” mean? It means knowledge. What is science? Knowledge.

Hindusim cannot be compared to any other religion(except Buddhism) because it is not a faith. It’s teachings are not based on faith. Just as Yoga is not a faith.

I have studied Hinduism thoroughly for almost 10 years now. Nothing within Hinduism is a faith. It is all based on systematic knowledge. It is the only religion that uses scientific reasoning and method to ascertain truth(Buddhism is similar, but not as thorough) It is the only “religion” that science actually backs up.

We call it Santana Dharma(eternal way) for a reason.

Nothing under Hinduism is faith?

Who is Krishna? why is his idols all over in India in temples? Are those idols not worshiped? Don’t millions of Hindu worship Krishna everyday? What about Shiv pooja?

What is Ganesh pooja about Sir? Try convincing Maharashtrians to give up Ganesh pooja and prepare for a what you get in return. Try telling Mumbaikars to not have faith in Sri Siddhi Vinayak Temple.

The following lines have been taken from official site of Sri Siddhi Vinayak

It was built by a professional contractor, Late Mr.Laxman Vithu Patil as per the financial support and instructions of Late Mrs.Deubai Patil, who was a rich lady of Agri Samaj from Matunga. Although she was rich enough, she had no child.

The idea of the construction of the temple struck to Late Deubai during the prayer time, she humbly requested Lord Ganesh and said, “Although I cannot have a child, let other ladies who are childless get the pleasure of child on visiting the temple and praying you”. Looking at successful subsequent history of the temple, it appears like the Lord Ganesh nodded to this humble request and pious thoughts and deeds of Late Deubai Patil. It is, therefore, this Siddhivinayak is famous for it and known as “Navasacha Ganapati” or “Navasala Pavanara Ganapati” in Marathi (Ganapati bestows whenever humbly genuinely prayed a wish) among devotees.

What are these lines about if not Faith?
What about Tirupati Balaji temple, the richest temple of India? Where devotees offer bags of diamonds! bags of diamonds! as offerings?

Secondly about Hinduism being Science.
You have repeatedly mentioned prana, atma, koshas etc. Has any of these been established scientifically beyond doubt? No, nopes, nada!

And Asanas and pranayam are not philosophical too. So there goes your arguments.

As I mentioned earlier Asanas and Pranayama are just techniques and there is nothing religious or Hinduistic about them.

Stop telling half truths and full lies over here.

And this is my last post on this thread.

Sat Sri Akal (True is the Timeless Being)

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36845]# Meditation is nowhere religious at all. It is a technique.

Ayurveda is not religious. It is a health care system.

Vedanta is not religious. It is a philosophy.

Then Hinduism which is the sum of above is is not religious either. It is a science and philosophy. What does “Vedic” mean? It means knowledge. What is science? Knowledge.

Hindusim cannot be compared to any other religion(except Buddhism) because it is not a faith. It’s teachings are not based on faith. Just as Yoga is not a faith.

I have studied Hinduism thoroughly for almost 10 years now. Nothing within Hinduism is a faith. It is all based on systematic knowledge. It is the only religion that uses scientific reasoning and method to ascertain truth(Buddhism is similar, but not as thorough) It is the only “religion” that science actually backs up.

We call it Santana Dharma(eternal way) for a reason.[/QUOTE]

Of course it’s based on faith. You wouldn’t call yourself a Hindu if you didn’t take a leap of faith. Your only fooling yourself.

[quote=Surya Deva;36824]I absolutely agree Philippe. If you ever see me meditate I always begin my meditation with an invocation to the Vedic masters, thanking them for finding this great wisdom and science via which I can better myself and humbling myself to them, and asking for their blessings.

Do you think Lotusgirl does this when she starts her Yoga classes? Do the Vedic masters who discovered this science ever get mentioned in her classes?

I said earlier to her would she tell her students of the Hindu origins of Yoga and tell them that they can practice it for free at the local Hindu temple?

The motivation behind these lies being spread in the West about Yoga which says ridiculous things like “Yoga is older than Hinduism” and the campaign to disassociate Hinduism from Yoga is purely economic and nothing else i.e., motivated by greed. Yoga is a huge money spinner today and the more secular they can make it look, the more money they can make from it by attracting more people, especially from other religions. If this was not true, India would never had decided to patent Yoga as it is doing now.

What is going on in the West right now vis Yoga is called plagiarism, which is a form of theft. That is not giving credit to the original authors and justifying something as their own. Here the reason being given is “Hinduism borrowed it, therefore we can borrow it as well” which is a blatant lie.[/quote]

Hi Surya Deva,

There exist not just economic but also social, psychological and religious reasons… There is also the ignorance…people do not know or they are not interested or they lack curiosity. There can be psychological projections also as some have difficulties to grasp that there are non-abrahamic religious approaches with vast differences where for example no credo is required, they think that Yoga has nothing to do with “religion” as they understand it in accordance with their social conditioning. Besides that Yoga is related with the Sanatana Dharma, I would add that the word religion comes from latin ; religere means to unite. Taken in this sense, Yoga is a means and a goal to achieve or realize the union with the sacred. That is true that it is at the core of Sanatana Dharma. Take the Bhagavad Gita for example, each of the 18 chapters has the word Yoga in the title.

On the other hand, I would not say that Hinduism is completely scientific stricto sensu. Being also a Science teacher myself, I am not at ease with this statement. Sanatana Dharma is based mainly on experiences and experiments of the Rishis, an empirical approach can be found but it is not bound to reason only, nor reason is the highest principle. Proper science implies initial scepticism, a metaphysical realism, a methodological materialism, rationalism with the principles of logics and parsimony. Faith as shraddha and bhakti are important in a lot of streams. I write that because one could take wrong advantage of this statement to maintain that Yoga has nothing to do with Sanatana Dharma.

Philippe

P.S. : A posture without the union of the body, breath and mind is not a proper asana. Asanas should not be confused with mere stretching exercises. Saying the contrary just shows a shallow understanding of core tenets of Yoga.

Namaste,

Yes, you have a point there. The other difference is also social and psychological. In the West religion is understood to be something that is based on faith, so they naturally assume all other religions are based on faith as well. Now as Yoga is a science they find it difficult to reconcile Yoga with “faith” so they therefore call it non-religious. What they do not understand the dharmic religions are not faith based religions, they are fact based. They are the accumulated wisdom of many enlightened masters, who have directly experienced the supersensory realities and given precise descriptions of them, given methods to verify them and have a large body of peer-reviewed data. Modern scientific studies have corroborated this data.

The dharmic religions are the only religions that actually tell you to critically evaluate everything scripture says. In Hinduism, for example, Swami Vivekananda relates that even if the supreme Brahma was to tell you something which was contrary to your experience or logic, you must reject it. In Buddhism, Buddha says not to believe anything he says, but to test it out. Thus in a general sense it is fair to say these are scientific religions because they demand objectivity and testing of ideas. There is nothing like this in Abrahamic religions which demand faith.

Now here is why I maintain that Hinduism is completely scientific. From the very beginning in the Vedic gurukuls the student studied the Vedas and Upanishads and a method was used in order to study it. This was a 3-fold method consisting of the following steps 1) Accurate listening to the Vedas and Upanishads 2) Critical examination of what has been learned and 3) Deep contemplation on the results of the examination.
In other words one was allowed to scrutanize the Vedas and put it to the test of reason.

Later, an even more precise scientific method was developed by the Darsanas school which is known as Pramana(valid means of knowledge) In this method one began with perception/empirical study of the world as the starting point of any kind of knowledge construction. Then because empirical study cannot itself tell us everything about the world, rational inquiry and logic was used to infer knowledge that was not available for empirical inquiry. Finally, the actual inference would be proven by gaining direct experience of it. This is actually even more thorough than the modern scientific method, because it is not limited just to the empirical, but goes beyond the empirical and includes systematic methods of reasoning and systematic methods of gaining direct experience.

To simplify the Vedic scientific method is a combination of empiricism, rationalism and phenomenology. It is the later stage where knowledge truly becomes real knowledge. If you read the Samkhya-texts they systematically construct a metaphysics by beginning with empirical facts. It is trying to study the cause of suffering. It does this through a systematic analysis(hence why it is called Samkhya, meaning analysis/enumeration) and it concludes based on the analysis that suffering is nothing more than dissonance that the observer feels because the reality it is perceiving is errorneous. It concludes that the observer is entangled within a false sensory reality, and the cause of the observer embodiment is due to this error(avidya) and it continues to become embodied again and again until the root error is removed. The solution it gives is that the observer must become aware that it is the observer and suspend itself in this state so that it can discriminate the false realities. Finally, Yoga is created as a practical experiment and technology which realises the Samkhya solution. The practice back up the theory thus validating the theory.

In this case we begin with an empirical fact and that is suffering that we experience. It then explains the cause of the suffering through logical analysis. Finally, it creates a practical method to validate the theory.

Now tell me is this not thorougly scientific? There is not an iota of faith in this. This is why I say that none of the teachings of Hinduism are faith based. They are all based on very rigorous science, even more rigorous than our modern scentific method.

[QUOTE=lostontheway;36853]Nothing under Hinduism is faith?

Who is Krishna? why is his idols all over in India in temples? Are those idols not worshiped? Don’t millions of Hindu worship Krishna everyday? What about Shiv pooja?

What is Ganesh pooja about Sir? Try convincing Maharashtrians to give up Ganesh pooja and prepare for a what you get in return. Try telling Mumbaikars to not have faith in Sri Siddhi Vinayak Temple.

What are these lines about if not Faith?
What about Tirupati Balaji temple, the richest temple of India? Where devotees offer bags of diamonds! bags of diamonds! as offerings?[/quote]

This is Bhakti Yoga. It is a scientific way of channeling emotion. If you completely dedicate all your emotion to one one object then it will create a one-pointed-concentration of the mind and this will result in the goal of Yoga chitt vritti nirodha and thus enlightenment. This particular method was created for people who had emotional temperaments. Even Guru Nanak was a Bhakti Yogi.

Your bhakti could be towards a chosen deity(Ishata devata) a living person or even an inanimate object.

There are dozens of different kinds of Yoga in addition to Bhakti. The main ones being Jnana, Raja, Karma and Hatha.

Yoga is a science.

Secondly about Hinduism being Science.
You have repeatedly mentioned prana, atma, koshas etc. Has any of these been established scientifically beyond doubt? No, nopes, nada!

There are dozens of scientific studies confirming these things, but mainstream science has not accepted all of them because of dogma. Quantum mechanics confirms Atman = Braman and it confirms the existence of pranic forces. Parapsychology confirms the existence of Siddhis. Research in OBE and NDE confirms the koshas. In addition we even have scientific studies which confirm reincarnation. Yoga and meditation has literally thousands of scientific studies to confirm it.

I have cited these studies many times before on this forum.

There are yet many other things that modern science has confirmed long ago that Hinduism has long said. It confirmed evolution(Hinduism says that all life first begins as a chemical process of heat and water, then evolves through 8,400,000 life forms before it becomes humans) it confirmed the visible universe beginning in a big bang(Hinduism says the entire universe originaly existed as a point source and then expanded suddenly(known as spanda) and will eventually contract to the point when the gunas resolve. It confirmed atoms and subatomic particles(Hinduism says the material world is made out of aggregates of atoms combining in pairs, then triads) It confirmed the laws of motion(Hinduism says that the motion of an arrow is due to the reproduction of initial momentum and its falling is due to losing energy due to gravity. Now cutting edge science is proposing things Hinduism says. The cyclic theory of the universe of endless cycles of expansion and contraction(Hinduism says the universe expands and contracts endlessly, each cycle lasting 311 trillion years) The theory that the whole universe is just vibrations of quantum strings(Hindu says the entire universe is vibrations of the primordial matter). The holographic theory of the universe(Hinduism says the whole universe is maya, and every point of the universe is atman)

There is absolutely no doubt about it that science will validate absolutely eveything Hinduism says. This is because Hinduism is the religion of an advanced scientific civilisation. Modern science is actually behind.

And Asanas and pranayam are not philosophical too. So there goes your arguments.

No, they are technologies. However, these technologies were created out of Samkhya theory.

As I mentioned earlier Asanas and Pranayama are just techniques and there is nothing religious or Hinduistic about them.

There is nothing religious about them. However, they are through and through Hindu technologies. They were developed after very rigorous empirical study of the mind-body system.

Surya Deva,

We are off topic but I will answer.

The realm of psyche is hardly a field of objective observation, experiments which can be replicated, and analysis. It is highly subjective. Science works also with a methodological materialism or naturalism. It aims at explaining nature by reason, practical methods and reference with natural causes and events. The theories must be falsifiable. There is no room for transcendence, it is out of its field. Atma for instance can not be proved nor disproved. That is why maybe Buddha pragmatical as he was was not so fond of debating about concepts such as Atma. There is also the principle of parsimony, today there is no need of prana to explain life from a biological point of view. Between the Samkhya theory of consciousness (with Purusha and samyoga between a transcendent Purusha and Prakriti) and a physicalist theory of explanation of consciousness including emergent properties of matter, the former does not make sense, the latter one does in today’s Science.

Rishis are also the seers and they have heard inwardly without a strict experimental hypothetico-deductive process. Even a hypothesis in experimental science is a proposition to answer a problem but it must be coherent with a strict scientific and naturalist framework.

While Yogis and scientists have in common a spirit of investigation and that Yoga might be called science in the largest sense as, Science as we understand usually today has a more restricted sense, it is limited by the four points I have mentioned in my former post. If it does not respect even one of them, it is not Science stricto sensu. That is generally accepted by the scientific community, at least tacitly.

Philippe

Though I am fond of Science, I think that at times it is overrated especially in the Western societies. Here is an excerpt of Savitri, the epic poem from Sri Aurobindo :[I]

Inviting to their high and exquisite sphere,
To their secure and fine extremities
This creature who hugs his limits to feel safe,
These heights declined a greater adventure’s call.
A glory and sweetness of satisfied desire
Tied up the spirit to golden posts of bliss.
It could not house the wideness of a soul
Which needed all infinity for its home.
A memory soft as grass and faint as sleep,
The beauty and call receding sank behind
Like a sweet song heard fading far away
Upon the long high road to Timelessness.
Above was an ardent white tranquillity.
A musing spirit looked out on the worlds
And like a brilliant clambering of skies
Passing through clarity to an unseen Light
Large lucent realms of Mind from stillness shone.
But first he met a silver-grey expanse
Where Day and Night had wedded and were one:
It was a tract of dim and shifting rays
Parting Life’s sentient flow from Thought’s self-poise.
A coalition of uncertainties
There exercised uneasy government
On a ground reserved for doubt and reasoned guess,
A rendezvous of Knowledge with Ignorance.
At its low extremity held difficult sway
A mind that hardly saw and slowly found;
Its nature to our earthly nature close
And kin to our precarious mortal thought
That looks from soil to sky and sky to soil
But knows not the below nor the beyond,
It only sensed itself and outward things.
This was the first means of our slow ascent
From the half-conscience of the animal soul
Living in a crowded press of shape-events
In a realm it cannot understand nor change;
Only it sees and acts in a given scene
And feels and joys and sorrows for a while.
The ideas that drive the obscure embodied spirit
Along the roads of suffering and desire
In a world that struggles to discover Truth,
Found here their power to be and Nature-force.
Here are devised the forms of an ignorant life
That sees the empiric fact as settled law,
Labours for the hour and not for eternity
And trades its gains to meet the moment’s call:
The slow process of a material mind
Which serves the body it should rule and use
And needs to lean upon an erring sense,
Was born in that luminous obscurity.
Advancing tardily from a limping start,
Crutching hypothesis on argument,
Throning its theories as certitudes,
It reasons from the half-known to the unknown,
Ever constructing its frail house of thought,
Ever undoing the web that it has spun.
A twilight sage whose shadow seems to him self,
Moving from minute to brief minute lives;
A king dependent on his satellites
Signs the decrees of ignorant ministers,
A judge in half-possession of his proofs,
A voice clamant of uncertainty’s postulates,
An architect of knowledge, not its source.
This powerful bondslave of his instruments
Thinks his low station Nature’s highest top,
Oblivious of his share in all things made
And haughtily humble in his own conceit
Believes himself a spawn of Matter’s mud
And takes his own creations for his cause.

[/I]Philippe

If yoga is Hinduism, It was not a Yoga. Off course more saints in Hinduism quest for Devine. It was not reason to tell Hinduism. Yoga means you can see All in One. Not seperate. If you can tell Yoga is Hinduism It is a seperate Yoga.

[QUOTE=Philippe*;36897]Surya Deva,

We are off topic but I will answer.

The realm of psyche is hardly a field of objective observation, experiments which can be replicated, and analysis. It is highly subjective. Science works also with a methodological materialism or naturalism. It aims at explaining nature by reason, practical methods and reference with natural causes and events. The theories must be falsifiable. There is no room for transcendence, it is out of its field. Atma for instance can not be proved nor disproved. That is why maybe Buddha pragmatical as he was was not so fond of debating about concepts such as Atma. There is also the principle of parsimony, today there is no need of prana to explain life from a biological point of view. Between the Samkhya theory of consciousness (with Purusha and samyoga between a transcendent Purusha and Prakriti) and a physicalist theory of explanation of consciousness including emergent properties of matter, the former does not make sense, the latter one does in today’s Science.

Rishis are also the seers and they have heard inwardly without a strict experimental hypothetico-deductive process. Even a hypothesis in experimental science is a proposition to answer a problem but it must be coherent with a strict scientific and naturalist framework.

While Yogis and scientists have in common a spirit of investigation and that Yoga might be called science in the largest sense as, Science as we understand usually today has a more restricted sense, it is limited by the four points I have mentioned in my former post. If it does not respect even one of them, it is not Science stricto sensu. That is generally accepted by the scientific community, at least tacitly.

Philippe[/QUOTE]

Philppe, I understand what you are saying about science and the connotations it carries today as a naturalistic and reductionist ontology and an emphasis on quantitative research methods, but this is not the only ontology of science, simply one of the most popular. In the philosophy of science we argue many philosophies of science. In the social sciences, for instance, qualitatative research methods are accepted as genuine scientific methods. Many of the social sciences use phenomenology(observation as a valid method of collecting data) In the theoretical sciences there is a huge emphasis on using mathematical formalism. In Quantum theory and String theory for isntance there is a greater emphasis on mathematics than empirical research.

If we understand science in the pure sense science is a systematic epistemology. That is knowledge that is collected using systematic methods.
The Vedic pramana method therefore qualifies as a systematic method of science, because knowledge is collected systematically through observation.
Then these observable facts are explained with a systematic rational method(this is completely absent in modern science, no attempt has been made to create an inductive logic) Finally, a direct experential method is created whereby the observer can gain transcendental knowledge of those objects(this is also completely absent in modern science)

Now you bring up a point about investigations of the psyche. You say that it is not possible to investigate the mind objectively because it is subjective. Much has been written on this area by modern philosophers of science and modern scientists studying mind and consciousness, and even I addressed this subject in my dissertation. Many have attacked the root of this myth: Cartesian dualism. It was Descartes that sharply separated mind from matter, but the motivation behind this was religious. This dualism was heavily criticized ever since it was declared. The aim was to leave the area of mind only to the Church and to leave the area of the world only to science.
Then in the 20th century with the advent of Phenomenology by Edmund Husserl, this dualism became highly questionable. It was noted that the contents of consciousness can also be studied objectively by introspection. Today, transpersonal psychology and consciousness studies use meditation to study the mind and have produced replicable and reliable data.

According to Vedic philosophy Cartesian dualism is a completely false dualism because the subject cannot be the mind itself, as the mind is an object of our witnessing consciousness as much as chairs and tables are. In other words mind is as much objective as the external world is. There are not only physical objects we witness, but mental objects as well. Yoga was created as a method to study experience in a controlled manner. Carl Jung points this out about Yoga, that through controlling posture, breath and mind through concentration on a single object, controlled conditions are created to allow a systematic study of the mind and collect objective data on the structures within consciousness. Surely enough, modern studies into meditation have confirmed this data.

We can pretty much predict with the same certainty as we can with a physical experiment what will happen when one sits for meditation. First, they will experience various thoughts in their mind. If they are successful in meditation the thought activity will reduce and they will begin to move into deeper states of consciousness(externally this can be proven by changes in brainwave activity) there will be qualitative changes. First one will experience their body getting very heavy, and then experience lightness. After a while they begin to introvert(pratyahara) and they lose sensory awareness. At this point the subconscious becomes active and one experiences vivid thoughts, memories. And so on. This will go on until one starts to have supersensory experiences.

So I hope you can understand now that just how thoroughly scientific Sanatana dharma is. What we are taught in Sanatana dharma is simply pure science. It is taught in a very colourful way(with mythology, symbols, rituals, art) to involve us. Modern science is backing everything up that Sanatana Dharma says(conversely, it is contradicting everything that Abrahamic religions say) Even modern science realises now that Sanatana dharma is scientific and is seeking inspiration from it. There is not a single field in science which is not looking towards Santana dharma.

Why is this? Sanatana dharma is the religion of an advanced scientific civilisation. Scientists are starting to recognise this. We are very fortunate that the Vedas have survived till now. Otherwise, we would still be in the dark ages.

Are child brides still condemned by Hindu law to be outcasts because they are widows? That’s not very yogic.