Is Yoga Hinduism?

On 8/26/10, at 6:38 pm

I mean if you want to be Hindu then be Hindu, but why pretend to be Muslim, Christian, secular whilst practicing a formal Hindu practice?

Today, 5:44 PM

I am not telling you to become Hindu(You only become Hindu when you accept all its beliefs) Just respect the fact that you are doing a formal Hindu practice

Self-realization is in progress.

There is hardly any debate about the origin of Yoga and Hinduism being in the Vedic period. A lot of good historical data has come forth. That may or may not be conclusive evidence. But it is not necessary for a Yoga practitioner either. This essential kinship between Yoga and Hinduism must however be respectfully and truthfully told to the Yoga practitioners and any attempts to distort it should be codemned by all.

The problems occur when the arguments reach a fanatic pitch, become desperately personal and instincts push to invent new reason to argue instead of finding a reason to reason. Besides there is information overload.

So, if behind all the arguments, quotations, interpretations, evidence, refutals and what not, a simple expectation was “Just respect the fact that you are doing a formal Hindu practice” the end is fair enough, and consequently, the means too.

Namaste Suhas,

I am finding it hard to reconcile how one could maintain to be a member of a Muslim, Christian or secular tradition if they practice a formal Hindu practice. As it is a basic law of cause and effect that as soon as they begin the practice they will start to learn about the inner self(god within) and reincarnation and spiritual evolution, chakras, kunldaini. This will contradict the main tenets of their faith. In any case I have learned from this forum and research that the Muslim and Christian faiths are evolving, and although it is absolutely undoubtable that they contained unmitigated evil at one time, today they are not the same religions(although ill deeds are still done) I think the assimilation of Yoga and Yoga spirituality by these religions(more so Christianity) can ultimately only do good, because it will usher in a true world religion on this planet(which for all intents and purposes will be Hinduism under a new name)

In any case the Vedic sages themselves said that the Vedas will be discovered again after the culmination of every cycle of yugas. This is not necessarily the old Vedas, but the knowledge contained within it will be discovered again, because it is timeless knowledge. Enlightened sages will still be born in every time and place, and they are still being born even in this Kaliyuga.

It is ultimately a good thing the world is practicing our Yoga and integrating into their own culture and traditions. The only objection we Hindus have is when attempts are made to disassocate Hinduism from Yoga, because that is an attack on our religion and it undermines the great contributions our sages have made. We do not mind non-Hindus practicing Yoga, we in fact encourage it, but any attempt to erase Hinduism from Yoga will be very feircely opposed.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36774]Namaste Suhas,

I am finding it hard to reconcile how one could maintain to be a member of a Muslim, Christian or secular tradition if they practice a formal Hindu practice.[/QUOTE]

That’s the easiest thing in the world to reconcile. You don’t have to become a Christian to enjoy and celebrate the Christmas holiday. You don’t have to become a Buddhist monk to practice Kung Fu. I like to do a variety of activities: Running, weights, Yoga, Boxing… You may claim that Yoga has no effect on ones physical health, but I have improved my posture, eliminated muscular tension in various parts of my body, and developed an awareness of my body.

Reincarnation, spiritual evolution, chakras, kunldain and all that stuff is justa fantasy land, which plays no role in my life, or the lives of pretty much anyone I know. There’s ZERO solid evidence for any of this mumbo jumbo, so it’s very easy to separate oneself from it. Yoga with all this magical, spiritual crap, makes far less sense then just normal secular Yoga.

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;36775]That’s the easiest thing in the world to reconcile. You don’t have to become a Christian to enjoy and celebrate the Christmas holiday. You don’t have to become a Buddhist monk to practice Kung Fu. I like to do a variety of activities: Running, weights, Yoga, Boxing… You may claim that Yoga has no effect on ones physical health, but I have improved my posture, eliminated muscular tension in various parts of my body, and developed an awareness of my body.

Reincarnation, spiritual evolution, chakras, kunldain and all that stuff is justa fantasy land, which plays no role in my life, or the lives of pretty much anyone I know. There’s ZERO solid evidence for any of this mumbo jumbo, so it’s very easy to separate oneself from it. Yoga with all this magical, spiritual crap, makes far less sense then just normal secular Yoga.[/QUOTE]

Agree word to word.
I have to run off to work now. See you guys later.

Reincarnation, spiritual evolution, chakras, kunldain

You will discover these truths in due course. Enjoy your Yoga :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36777]You will discover these truths in due course. Enjoy your Yoga :)[/QUOTE]

Believe whatever keeps you happy.

[QUOTE=The Scales;36060]Hinduism is built on the yoga.

Therefore my friend - Hinduism arose from yoga and not the other way around.

Meaning the entire religion sprung up from the knowledge gained through the practice of yoga, and by Yoga I mean internal yoga, and by internal yoga i specifically mean altered states of consciousness and deep meditation and single pointed concentration.

Yoga is not the province of Indians, it is the province of all.

These altered states and deep meditation are not the invention of some specific people. They are the potentiality of all sentient beings . . . in whatever universe across the breadth of infinite time.

Indians did not create this potentiality within sentient beings.

All the various shat karmas, Asanas, and kumbhakas are not required to reach altered states of consciousness and deep meditation. They are friendly supports, but not requirements.

[B]Undoubtedly the precious gurus in india made monumental contributions to the Art. But I highly doubt they would claim it as their own and the province of a specific people. [/B]

Yoga is not Hinduism.

All of the Blue Dudes, and Symbols, and sounds, arose from the yoga - which is the means to know.

[B]Hinduism is cultural.

Yoga is Universal. [/B]

On the Planet Quasar in the second Universe from the left, the quasarians discovered these same things.

The mantras are universal. Sound is universal. The secrets are hidden in plain view.

Ah La La.

How wonderful.[/QUOTE]

I think in your head you have associated Hinduism only with the exoteric as in what you you see in terms of the various gods and goddesses and the rituals being practiced in India without realising that it’s the esoteric part that Hinduism is defined by. Hinduism is defined by its philosophy. You can ask any learned Hindu and they will tell you we do not believe in gods and goddesses, but we believe in the one supreme reality - the Atman - the immortal self that is also the supreme reality, Brahman, and that our goal in life is to realise that self and become liberated from the endless cycle of birth and death. Yes that is exactly the goal of Yoga as well. In other words the goal of Hinduism “and” Yoga is the same.

[QUOTE=omamana;36082]This has became a Hindu Forum :o[/QUOTE]

dvishata Member

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 271

Yes, never disputed that yoga is Hindu. I’ve acknowledged that over and over. Many others have too. Many express gratitude for Hindu’s sharing yoga. Wouldn’t the authors, or author, or the Veda’s be filled with joy knowing so many have used yoga to better themselves and brought about much peace and contentment? I think they would. If the yoga path leads to Hinduism, then it does! Likewise, if the yoga path leads to enlightenment, then it does. Does not matter whether you are Hindu or not.
lotusgirl is online now Report Post Reply With Quote

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36091]To be honest there were discussions on Hinduism on this forum before I even joined. It is pretty natural for Hinduism to be discussed on a Yoga forum. As natural as it is for Taoism to be talked about on a Qigong forum.[/QUOTE]

I think it becomed bit nationalistic rather than Hindu. When I read Hindu texts I’m immersed in reflexion. When I read some posts here I just feel sad and to see so much “ideological violence”. Good its just babbling and not real action - lot of real violence started with such sentiments and views…

Doraminder7,

Welcome to the forum!

First I’d like to clarify my above statement you quoted. I acknowledge the fact that Hinduism gave us yoga. Yoga has BECOME an important part of their religion. That I acknowledge. Yoga predates Hinduism. I and many others believe yoga is more universal. I agree whole heartedly with The Scales. That does NOT mean we are not grateful to the Hindu’s for sharing yoga.

Where is the ‘ideological violence’ here? Where is the babbling? And real violence starting with such sentiments and views…oh come on, you are kidding right? Nothing said has been of a violent nature. Unless you look at other posts like,“Abrahamic religions are offensive, violent and wrong”, or “are you ignorant?’, or Hinduism is superior to all religions and all other religions are false” and I could go on and on.

This is utter nonsense!

Quote:
I’m not doubting that yoga is a Hindu practice
Then we no longer have any more dispute lol

Important word is Practice! lol
It is practiced by many.

[B]Physical postures are not exclusive province of Hindu religion[/B]

Yoga is a vast term, and not all that comes under the term is being practiced by people in west. Majority of them practice the physical postures. But ancient Indians were not the only ones who did body exercises. There are many cultures who have stretching as part of their physical culture. For example contortionists of Europe and Americas do so many postures similar to what is done in Yoga postures. Kung fu and other martial art practitioners also do similar things. The balle dancers and gymnasts from all over the world do such things. Hindus do not have any exclusive rights on such physical culture.

[B]Yoga postures in themselves are not spiritual or religious[/B]
Yoga postures never held any high place in Hindu religion either. The postures were a part of a small branch of Hatha Yoga and their main aim was NOT religious but to simply keep the body healthy. The word Asana in Patanjali Sutra does not refer to the numerous postures being done today. The role of asana in Patanjali sutras is to sit in a position so that a person that properly concentrate his/her mind. This is also written in Geeta in which it is told that a practitioner should sit and concentrate on the tip of his nose. That was all that Lord Krishna had to do with an asana. To practice concentration on the tip of one’s nose one did not have to do either splits or inversions.

[B]Modern Day Yoga Practice was packaged for the west[/B]
The modern day Yoga practice largely consists of yoga postures and has been packaged for the west by Sri BKS Iyengar and Sri Pattabhi Jois. They have built it into a beautiful system and the west in its part has proven to be EXCELLENT students of yoga postures. This is amply proven by so many certified Iyengar, Vinyasa and other yoga-styles teachers. India does not have any culture of doing yoga postures to perfection. This culture is no longer Hindu in flavour.

[B]West is much more body aware, they are better students[/B]
Majority of citizens of Western countries are much more aware of body-culture than most Indians. There is a long tradition of gymnastics in their schools. Small school girls can do beautiful forward and back bends! And that too without anything to do with yoga or India. I am yet to see any housewife of an Indian household who can do a split. On the other hand in a single city in America or Canada you would find not but many.

[B]Modern day Yoga is Buddhistic[/B]
Almost all of the Hindu meditations consist of concentration of mind at one point. Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras are also about concentration. Simple concentration of mind which is by and by developed to a great degree. This is known as ekagrata or one pointedness. Swami Vivekananda in his Raj-Yoga lectures discusses this in detail.
BUT while modern day popular practice of Yoga postures does NOT consist of one-pointedness of mind. It consists of a spread out awareness of the body. It consists of mindfullness not concentration. This is very important yet subtle difference. And this mindfulness is inspired not by hinduism but by Buddhism. The Vipassana meditation as taught by the Theravada school of Buddhism, by the teachers such as Sri Goenka is all about this only. Gautama Buddha attained the Truth using this meditation only. Mindfullness. And this is THE MOST pervasive and popular approach towards meditation and spiritual development being used both in and outside Yoga practice all over the world. and this practice is NOT Hindu. It is Buddhist.

[B]Effect of the likes of J. Krishnamurti[/B]
Other modern teachers like J. Krishnamurti and more recent Eckhart Tolle teach similar things. They have a large global influence and it shows in the common people’s approach to spirituality. People talk about mind awareness in everyday talk. Its all over hollywood movies too. You can see this approach or philosophy in films like Star Wars! All this is effects of Buddhism as well as these modern teachers. This is also the case with Yoga practice in west.

[B]The child has become a man and left the home[/B]
The case is like a child being born and then leaving home for good because he knows he can never truly grow as a person in his small home. Yoga might have been born in India, but the child has become a man and has left the home. He now has many homes all over the globe. He is no longer your jungle boy.

So beautifully articulated and presented lostontheway! You are right on!

I myself practice and teach Vipassana Meditation and speak often of mindfulness thoughout my teaching. My students very much enjoy this Buddhist meditation.

I especially liked you last paragraph which summarizes how many of us feel. Well said indeed!

Yoga means a lot of things, but Yoga as defined by Patanjali belongs to the Sanatana Dharma tradition since time immemorial. Those denying these roots of Yoga are simply wrong… even Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism are related to this spiritual culture, there have been mutual influences. But it does not mean that one has to convert taking a Hindu name and other samskaras, doing puja… it is not compatible with fundamentalist Christianity or Islam but it is with other versions. Moreover Sanatana Dharma is often difficult to grasp for Westerners.

Philippe

Vedic period to which Yoga and Hinduism owe their origin, was a long stretch in history and quite distant from us today. Any investigative work we do today would naturally lead to fuzzy conclusions. Especially when the minds of the investgators are filled with anger about Yoga being called Hindu or not being so called is bound to leave some holes in their evidence born out of selective perception for the opponents to pounce on.

Some basic facts remain mostly accepted like Yoga came first and Hinduism followed. (Patanjali’s Yoga-Sutras do not mention Hinduism, yet there are many references to Yoga in the Hindu scriptures). As humanity progressed many great minds embraced and re-interpreted Yoga, a process that has been a hallmark of this universal philosophy. So, Hinduism remains a sibling of Yoga and both have very close idiom that must have historically influenced each other. There should be no problem in appreciating this.

It is also true that a new awareness of Yoga has emerged in the Western countries and the seriousness and dedication with which some practitioners have espoused Yoga they will eventually re-discover the pinnacle of Yoga in their own way, as it used to happen in the Vedic times. Even in the Vedic times, there was no single author or authority of Yoga and Patanjali had to codify and standardise the various approaches to Yoga.

Can we not move on? Because anyway, Yoga teaches us to have self-realization to be the only testimony of truth and not subscribe to any authority in dogmas, beliefs or the scriptures. There is no need to kowtow anything or denounce anything. The point that we are trying to prove either way is pointless. It is certainly not Yoga.

I second that Suhas Tambe! Your words are wise and now it’s time to move on!

I am so ready to move on. This thread is tiring me out.

Yoga does not teach dogma but it teaches satya, truth. Truth matters, even if the mental realm is bound to ignorance to some extent. Whoever practices Yoga and has gratitude for the sages of the past will understand the importance of not spreading confusion about something like Yoga. There is an Upanishadic saying :

Truth alone triumphs (satyameva jayate which is the motto of India); not falsehood.
Through truth the divine path is spread out by which
the sages whose desires have been completely fulfilled,
reach where that supreme treasure of Truth resides

Philippe

Namaste,

I think we can move on, but some recent comments which have been reiterated, “Yoga is older than Hinduism” is preventing us from moving on. As once again it is an attack on the Hindu religion of which the philosophy and practice of Yoga is essential. There is no Yoga without Hinduism and Hinduism without Yoga. This is a false dichotomy being created by Western people that nobody has ever heard before in the East. It seems the West are in the habit of creating false dichotomies. Nobody had ever heard in the East of the “Aryan/Dravidian” divide or “Vedic period and non Vedic period” of Indian history, until the West came along. This is an absolute fact and you can look it up. In the entire history of India and the history of India recorded by the Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, nowhere are these Western fabrications mentioned. These are completely modern fictions created by the West for political purposes.

I want to say to my fellow Indians and Hindus why do you tolerate this? Is the West in a better position to tell us about our own history and heritage? Speaking for India we have almost 10,000 years of recorded history, we have hundreds(if not initially thousands) of texts discussing, explaining and detailing systems of Yoga, we were the first to have planned cities and sanitation, first to have universities, first to have hospitals, first to have industry, first to engage in deeps sea navigation and set up colonies and colonize many parts of the world, first to do philosophy, first to manufacture steel etc, and suddenly we are going to forget all this and listen to what the the new kid on the block - Western man has to say? I am not saying hate the Western civilisation, but do not tolerate such blatant attacks on your civilisation.

This statement is very patently absurd “Yoga is older than Hinduism” to any learned person, especially to an Indian person well versed in their history. Hinduism is a name given to a particular set of a stream of religious and spiritual traditions by the British which shared commonalities. They had rightlfully noted that although all these traditions seemed very diverse, worshipped different deities, had different rituals, had different scriptures and different mythologies, they shared the following characteristics:

  1. They all accepted the Vedas as their supreme authority
  2. They all accepted the Vedic doctrine of Self/Brahman and the goal of life as self-realization/union with the supreme
  3. They all accepted the law of karma and reincarnation
  4. They all taught similar cosmologies, psychology and metaphysics(Samkhya-Yoga-Vedanta)
  5. They all practiced some form of Yoga

Therefore because the British could identify that there was a common religion that pervaded this seemingly diverse range of religious and spiritual traditions, they gave this the name of “Hinduism” which literally means the common religion of the Indian people. As the word “Hindu” is a geographical identity and refers to people of the Indian subcontinent. Originally the British use to call the Indians, “Hindoos”

Now let us identify those different streams of traditions: There is Vaisnavism(most popular, approx 200 million Hindus are Vaishnavites) this is the tradition that worships Vishnu as their supreme entity and Krishna is their most popular form of Vishnu. Their most sacred scriptures are the Bhagvad Gita and the Bhagvat Purana. They have literally hundreds of other scriptures in this stream. Some of their most popular mantras from the Vedas are the Purusha Suktam and Narayana Suktam.

The second most popular is Shivaism(mostly popular in South India) this is the tradition that worships Shiva as the supreme entity. Their most sacred scriptures are the Agamas/Tantras because these are often presented as discourses where Shiva is speaking, and most of these are in the Tamil language. Amongst the Puranas, the Shiva Puranas are most popular. The Agamas/Tantras are a treasure trove on Yoga techniques and this is why Shiva is called the Lord of Yoga. Their most popular mantra from the Vedas is the Sri Rudram.

The third most popular stream is Shaktism and this is the tradition that worships the divine mother as the supreme entity. This is by far the most colourful of the traditions because the divine mother has as many popular forms: Durga, Kali, Amba, Saraswati, Lakshmi, Chandi and many others. They refer to many popular scriptures, again mostly agamas/tantras, such as Bhairavi tantra. In the Vedas the most popular mantras used are the Devi Suktam.

Finally there is Smartism which worships only the one supreme Brahman, the impersonal god but also allows its adhereants to choose from the 330 million gods their “ishta devata” which is basically saying you are allowed to symbolize the ultimate personal being in any form you want. This is by far the most philosophical of the traditions and its most popular scriptures are the Vedas, Upanishsds and Brahma Sutras.

Amongst these 4 main traditions there are many smaller traditions and sub traditions which makes Hinduism easily the most complex religion in the world. So when a foreinger first steps foot into India they are absolutely bewildered and it looks like there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of religions in India. So credit should be given to the British who recognised that underlying this diversity was a common thread and this was what they called Hinduism.

That common thread is the Vedic religion. If we trace back Hinduism to its core we find the Vedas beating at the heart of it. In the Vedas we find the entire universe of Hinduism already there present. All of the common deities of Hinduism are present in the Vedas, such as Vishnu, Shiva, Shakti. In other words Hinduism is the Vedic religion.

How old is the Vedic religion? Now based on all kinds of evidence presented we know the Vedic religion at the very least is approx 10,000 years old. This consists of texual evidence, astronomical evidence, archeological evidence. We also know, and this fact has already been confirmed that the earliest form of any kind of Yoga was being practiced by the Vedic people. There is no evidence of any other origin of Yoga. The first description of Yoga, its philosophy and practice is in the Vedas.

THEREFORE, as there is no other evidence of Yoga existing prior to the Vedas, the creators of Yoga are the Vedic people. Therefore Yoga is not something that is merely adopted by Hinduism, it verily originates from Hinduism. It is in fact what Hinduism really is at the core.

Now to deal with the comments that Hinduism has borrowed Yoga like every other religion such as Jainism and Buddhism.

Those making those comments do not seem to be know the history. This statement is an anachorism. Hinduism predates Jainism and Buddhism, not the other way around. This is blatantly clear as we know that Hinduism existed even before the Buddha. It is also well known that Yoga and meditation existed before Buddha, because Buddha did various kinds of Yoga and meditation techniques, which he obviously learnt from India.
Now Jainism is a diffeent story, because while Buddha was the founder of the religion called Buddhism and there is no evidence of there being any such religion prior to Buddha, Mahavira was the last in a long line of sages in his stream. However, what the original Jainism taught is highly debatable and even early Jains could not decide what the doctrine was. So they had to later reconstruct their religion. In a way this can be compared to the Wicca religion which supposely is based on ancient Drudism, but there is little evidence of what the ancient Drudism religion was like. If we look closely enough, however, it does not differ significantly from Hinduism/Vedic religion.

In any case there is a reason why Jainism and Buddhism are identified as separate religions. They reject the Vedas. There is no other reason why they are separate. As Hinduism is the Vedic religion, if you reject the Vedas, then you separate yourself from Hinduism stream. Yet, despite this spiritually, philosophically and historically, they are very closely allied to each other.

However, what we can be very certain of is that Buddhism and Jainism inherit from the Hindu religiom. In the same way Christianity and Islam inherit from Judaism. Hinduism is thousands of years older than Buddhism and Jainism. So to say that all religions have borrowed Yoga, is like saying Islam, Christianity and Judaism have borrowed Abraham. Obviously, in this case the borrowers are Christianity and Islam and Judaism is the source. Similarly, Buddhism and Jainism are the borrowers, and Hinduism is the source.

But it is not necessary for a Yoga practitioner either. This essential kinship between Yoga and Hinduism must however be respectfully and truthfully told to the Yoga practitioners and any attempts to distort it should be codemned by all.

Absolutely it needs to be respected. It must be understood Yoga is of Hindu origins and is a formal Hindu religious practice. If this fact is not respected, then Houston, we have a problem. Like I said we Hindus have absolutely no problem if non-Hindus do our Yoga, but if they start to spread lies that we merely borrowed Yoga from another, and were not the creators of this science, then there are approx 1 billion Hindus in the world who are rising in political, economic and military power. It would not be wise to upset them.