Is Yoga Hinduism?

Modern India is not really representative of Hinduism. I think people forget that India has been through 1000 years of non stop invasions. The last 400 years of British rule left this country crippled. If you want a true picture of India look at the period of 7000BCE to 1000AD, because this is when India was under Hindu rule. Incidentally this is the period where you see India at its most prosperous.

The faults you see in India today are not because of Hinduism, because Hinduism has no control over India today. India is a secular country, with Western government, education, legal, media and economic systems. There is nothing Hindu about it. If there is anything to blame here for its faults today is the Western systems.

Surya Devaji,

I maintain that violence towards women has nothing to do with religion, but all with social conditioning.

And the outdated saints and thinkers you quoted is not really representative of the West today anymore.

Yes, indeed the outdated saints and thinkers of Christianity is not really representative of the West today anymore, but it would be disingenious to say they have nothing to do with Christianity. It would be equally disingenious to say that maltreatment of women has nothing to do with religion, especially when you find justification for this maltreatment in the holy scriptures itself:

Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great. (Quran)

Can you really say that this verse has nothing to do with Islam?

Unfortunately I must then be “disingenious” as I totally disagree with you. In my country we have the traditional African Nature Based religions without any body of recognised scriptures or books (and they pre date other religions by far) or rules or regulations, but maltreatment of women is common under these societies.

I do belief that we cannot and shouldn’t pin every wrong on this earth on religion, some of it people must take responsibility for as well. It is just too easy to blame it on religion of any kind. I think the capacity for evil in the hearts of people overrides sometimes any religious or philosophical description and argument.

Dear Surya Deva,

Are you familiar with a book written by K. Shanthi called, “Women in India: retrospect and prospect”? If not, I shall quote a few things.

While India has tried several times with initiatives like the 7 year plan, women in India continued to be viewed as objects of development rather than subjects of development.

In 1983 2 women per day were burned alive in dowry related incidents

The 4 states of Bihar, Rajusthan, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh account for 50% of girls who are married before age 16.

Quoting Shanthi, “Of late the 2 things which worry women of India are the growing reaffirmation of the old religio-cultural order and ensuing communal violence in which the victims are women and children and secondly the use of religion for political purposes and its consequent adverse impact on women.”

“In social conflicts whether based on caste or religion the targeting of women and children has become a regular phenomenon.”

“The gap between upper and lower class women is rapidly widening.”

“Sex selected abortions (female foeticide) are becoming socially accepted.”

These are just a few excerpts from her book.

My point here is it is not just Christianity or Islam that has a history of maltreatment of women. Women in general have been looked at as inferior to men over the centuries. Are we beginning to gain equality, well yes. But we all have far to go to reach real equality.

I can even take this a step further. You talk about the non-violent history of Hinduism. What about the violence against women in India? Violence is violence, justified or not.

Thanks sharing.It’s geat

Hi Lotusgirl,

Herewith is two very informative articles regarding female foeticide:

http://www.iheu.org/female-foeticide-in-india

and

http://www.csrindia.org/attachments/Piyali.pdf

It is together with how women are treated worldwide a disgrace no matter how we would like to argue around it.

Thanks for posting the links. Very mind opening!

Some further thoughts…
It is agreed, I believe, that women in India during ancient times were treated as equal. However, that began to deteriorate during the first few centuries. (multiple invasions) The Bhakti movement tried to restore women’s status during the medieval times. With all the problems of the British Raj, it can be said that under their rule, missionaries’ wives pioneered educating and training Indian girls. This was met with local resistance.

By about the 10th century sati, as understood today, was known across much of the subcontinent. It continued to occur, usually at a low frequency and with regional variations, until the early 19th century.

 Sati was either voluntary or by use of force.

This is taken from Wikipedia-

Crimes against women

Police records show high incidence of crimes against women in India. The National Crime Records Bureau reported in 1998 that the growth rate of crimes against women would be higher than the population growth rate by 2010.[25] Earlier, many cases were not registered with the police due to the social stigma attached to rape and molestation cases. Official statistics show that there has been a dramatic increase in the number of reported crimes against women.[25]
[edit]Sexual harassment
Half of the total number of crimes against women reported in 1990 related to molestation and harassment at the workplace.[25] Eve teasing is a euphemism used for sexual harassment or molestation of women by men. Many activists blame the rising incidents of sexual harassment against women on the influence of “Western culture”. In 1987, The Indecent Representation of Women (Prohibition) Act was passed[44] to prohibit indecent representation of women through advertisements or in publications, writings, paintings, figures or in any other manner.
In 1997, in a landmark judgement, the Supreme Court of India took a strong stand against sexual harassment of women in the workplace. The Court also laid down detailed guidelines for prevention and redressal of grievances. The National Commission for Women subsequently elaborated these guidelines into a Code of Conduct for employers.[25]
[edit]Dowry
Main articles: Dowry, Dowry death, and Dowry law in India
In 1961, the Government of India passed the Dowry Prohibition Act,[45] making the dowry demands in wedding arrangements illegal. However, many cases of dowry-related domestic violence, suicides and murders have been reported. In the 1980s, numerous such cases were reported.[39]
In 1985, the Dowry Prohibition (maintenance of lists of presents to the bride and bridegroom) rules were framed.[46] According to these rules, a signed list of presents given at the time of the marriage to the bride and the bridegroom should be maintained. The list should contain a brief description of each present, its approximate value, the name of whoever has given the present and his/her relationship to the person. However, such rules are hardly enforced.
A 1997 report[47] claimed that at least 5,000 women die each year because of dowry deaths, and at least a dozen die each day in ‘kitchen fires’ thought to be intentional. The term for this is “bride burning” and is criticized within India itself. Amongst the urban educated, such dowry abuse has reduced considerably.
[edit]Child marriage
Child marriage has been traditionally prevalent in India and continues to this day. Historically, young girls would live with their parents till they reached puberty. In the past, the child widows were condemned to a life of great agony, shaving heads, living in isolation, and shunned by the society.[23] Although child marriage was outlawed in 1860, it is still a common practice.[48]
According to UNICEF’s “State of the World’s Children-2009” report, 47% of India’s women aged 20–24 were married before the legal age of 18, with 56% in rural areas.[49] The report also showed that 40% of the world’s child marriages occur in India.[50]
[edit]Female infanticides and sex selective abortions
Main article: Sex-selective abortion and infanticide
India has a highly masculine sex ratio, the chief reason being that many women die before reaching adulthood.[25] Tribal societies in India have a less masculine sex ratio than all other caste groups. This, in spite of the fact that tribal communities have far lower levels of income, literacy and health facilities.[25] It is therefore suggested by many experts, that the highly masculine sex ratio in India can be attributed to female infanticides and sex-selective abortions.
All medical tests that can be used to determine the sex of the child have been banned in India, due to incidents of these tests being used to get rid of unwanted female children before birth. Female infanticide (killing of girl infants) is still prevalent in some rural areas.[25] The abuse of the dowry tradition has been one of the main reasons for sex-selective abortions and female infanticides in India.
[edit]Domestic violence
The incidents of domestic violence are higher among the lower Socio-Economic Classes (SECs).[citation needed] The Protection of Women from Domestic Violence Act, 2005 came into force on October 26, 2006.
[edit]

The reason for me posting this is to shed light on the plight of women. It is not just women in India, it is women across the globe. Another reason for posting this is to point out that India and Hinduism does indeed have a history of violence. Violence against women. This is contrary to what Surya Deva has written. The women of India have fought long and hard for their independence and should be commended and respected by both other cultures and their Hindu culture.

Namaste,

As I have said again and again, Modern India is not representative of Hinduism. As it is not a Hindu nation, but a Western nation. I will repeat its government and economic systems are Western. Its education system is Western. Its legal system is Western. Its media system is Western. All of these ills you talk about are due to Western systems. These ills can also be found in Western nations, in fact proportionally to a greater degree:

In Britain, one woman is killed by a partner every three days, one woman in four experiences domestic violence and attacks on partners account for a quarter of all violent crime. Despite media campaigns and shocking statistics, domestic violence continues to be one of Europe’s most under-reported crimes.

According to the Amnesty report, one in every three women suffers violence in her lifetime. The statistics in Europe are as appalling as anywhere else. In France, six women die each month at the hands of men who profess to love them. In Spain, some 100 women are killed each year by abusive spouses or boyfriends with over 30,000 complaints of severe physical violence, while in Switzerland, one of the wealthiest countries in Europe where “direct democracy” rules supreme, the number of women who suffer physical and psychological abuse tops 20 per cent. In France, the subject became front-page news after the film actress, Marie Trintrignant, was beaten to death by her lover, singer Bertrand Cantat.

In Europe - Women earn less than men in all 27 European Union countries, according to a recent European Commission report. In 2005, the “pay gap” was 15% across the European Union. (source: Rich man, Poor Woman - economist.com).

They say those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others.

Western culture has always maintained vast inequality between men and women. This is because in the Western mythos women have always maintained a lower position than man, because a woman is seen to be born from the rib of a man in the bible. In the bible she is depicted as a temptress and a baby making machine. In Victorian times a woman was expected to know her place and her main function was simply to look pretty. In the rise of industrial capitalism the woman was completely disempowered, as men took control of all jobs(mostly coal mines etc) and would work long hours, the only solace they would get is sex from their wives at the end of the day. This has been pointed out by many Marxist feminists. Although the conditions have improved today, the inequality still remains, because the system of capitalism is tipped against the woman. She is an object of exploitation, and even to this day, this continues to be true.

So lets be honest here the West are in no position to criticise the rights of women in other cultures. Was it Jesus who said, “Do not try to move the splinter from your neighbours eye, when you have a beam in your own”

In Hindu culture we have great respect for women and this should be obvious by the fact that we deify the woman and give her the status of “Shakti” meaning power. In Hinduism one entire branch is Shaktism which the worship of the female divine(as Kali, Durga, Chandi, Lakshmi, Paravati etc) and in all other branches the feminine is also glorified. In Shivaism for instance Shiva is depicted as half masculine and half feminine. In Vaishnavism maya is seen as Krishna’s energy. The masculine and feminine are two sides of the same coin in Hindu mythos(as opposed to Abrahamic mythos, where the woman is an expendable part, often required only for reproduction) In Yoga bringing together the masculine and the feminine by uniting the Kundalini(mother energy) with Shiva(the masculine energy) produces enlightenment. This can also be seen in the Vedas:

She is Language, he is Thought
She is Prudence, he is Law
He is Reason; she is Sense
She is Duty; he is Right
He is Will; she is Wish
He is Pity; she is Gift
He is Song; she is Note
She is Fuel; he is Fire
She is Glory; he is Sun
She is Motion; he is Wind
He is Owner; she is Wealth
He is Battle ; she is Might
He is Lamp; she is Light
He is Day; she is Night
He is Justice; she is Pity
He is Channel; she is River
She is Beauty; he is Strength
She is Body; he is Soul

In popular Indian drama this theme is most apparent. As almost all Indian drama is about uniting the masculine and the feminine. This is why most Indian dramas are romantic stories. This is because in Hinduism both the masculine and the feminine have to married to one another to complete one another. There is no such theme in Western drama, because the woman has always been considered to be expendable.

When Jesus speaks to his mother he says, “Woman, I do not know who you are” This is absolutely unthinkable for a Hindu. We are taught to respect our mothers, never to call them by their name, let alone address them as “woman” (Shock) Yet, we can see in Western culture calling your mother by their name is common place. It is amusing that such a culture could point fingers at Hindu culture.

Again those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others.

Now here is what historians actually say about the status of women in Hinduism:

Will Durant (1885-1981) American historian says:

“Women enjoyed far greater freedom in the Vedic period than in later India. She had more to say in the choice of her mate than the forms of marriage might suggest. She appeared freely at feasts and dances, and joined with men in religious sacrifice. She could study, and like Gargi, engage in philosophical disputation. If she was left a widow there were no restrictions upon her remarriage.”

(source: Story of Civilization: Our Oriental Heritage - By Will Durant MJF Books.1935 p. 401).

Louis Jaccoliot (1837-1890) who worked in French India as a government official and was at one time President of the Court in Chandranagar, translated numerous Vedic hymns and the celebrated author of the Bible in India: Hindoo Origin of Hebrew and Christian Revelation said:

“India of the Vedas entertained a respect for women amounting to worship; a fact which we seem little to suspect in Europe when we accuse the extreme East of having denied the dignity of woman, and of having only made her an instrument of pleasure and of passive obedience.” He also said: “What! here is a civilization, which you cannot deny to be older than your own, which places the woman on a level with the man and gives her an equal place in the family and in society.”

Indian Historian Romesh C Dutt writes:

“Women were held in higher respect in India than in other ancient countries, and the Epics and old literature of India assign a higher position to them than the epics and literature of ancient Greece. Hindu women enjoyed some rights of property from the Vedic Age, took a share in social and religious rites, and were sometimes distinguished by their learning. The absolute seclusion of women in India was unknown in ancient times.”

(source: The Civilization of India - By R. C. Dutt p 21-22)

It thus becomes clearly apparent to the objective reader that the maltreatment of women in India is a modern problem brought on by Western influence. In Hindu India, women enjoyed far greater freedom. This of course reflects the Hindu cultural ethos where the women is seen as an equal with man. Part and parcel.

Yes, Surya Deva, remember those who live in glass houses should throw no stones.

You completely missed my point as you often do. So I shall state it again.

The reason for me posting this is to shed light on the plight of women. It is not just women in India, it is women across the globe. Another reason for posting this is to point out that India and Hinduism does indeed have a history of violence. Violence against women. This is contrary to what Surya Deva has written. The women of India have fought long and hard for their independence and should be commended and respected by both other cultures and their Hindu culture.

Where did I say that violence against women is exclusive to India? Nowhere. What I highlighted are ancient practices still going on. These ancient practices are against women. These practices hurt, kill and treat women like second class citizens.

Is there violence against women across the globe? As you pointed out correctly yes. That was not my point. My point was you keep stating over and over the violence in other religions (Abrahamic). Hinduism has its share also. Again, if you look at the types of crimes against women in India, it is much worse like sex-selective abortions, dowery deaths, etc.

Francois Gautier (1950 - ) Paris-born has lived in India for 30 years, is a political analyst for Le Figaro, one of France’s largest circulation newspaper. He is the uthor of several books, including A Western journalist on India : The Ferengi’s Columns and Rewriting Indian History and A New History of India. He has remarked:

"Hindu have venerated the feminine element under its different manifestations: Mahalaxmi, Mahakali, Mahasaraswati, Maheshwari - and even India is feminine: “Mother India.” She is the consciousness transcending all things, she is the emptiness beyond all emptiness, the smile beyond all smiles, the divine beauty beyond all earthly beauties. "

(source: A New History of India - By Francois Gautier p. 1 - 18).

“Countries such as France or the United States, who are often preaching India on “women’s rights” never had a woman as their top leader (President), whereas India had Indira Gandhi ruling with an iron hand for nearly twenty years; and proportionately they have less MP’s than India, which is considering earmarking 33 % of seats in Parliament for women, a revolution in human history!”

I had to include this comment because it is incredibly ironic :wink:

Lotusgirl,

I will once again reiterate these are not ancient practices. These are modern practices brought on by Western influences into India. In Hinduism the woman is considered sacred. I know this very well, being brought up in Hindu culture, of how much we are taught to respect our mothers. We are even told to bow to them and touch their feet. Now, come on, where is this practiced in Western culture?

The practices you mentioned that go in modern India have nothing to do with Hinduism.

I don’t know how this proves your point. It is but one mans interpretation.

Just because the Great Indira Gandhi ruled for 20 years it does not negate the violence against women and how women are seen and treated.

Crimes against women? No greater crime has been done against women than the with burning in Christianity ordained by the holy pope where millions of women were burned at the stake:

Helen Ellerbe a researcher, writer, and public speaker, has observed in her book, that:

Orthodox Christians held women responsible for all sin. As the Bible Apocrypha states: “Of woman came the beginning of sin/ And thanks to her, we all must die.’ St. Augustine, the much celebrated Father of the Church, thought that sex was intrinsically evil. Denying human free will and condemning sexual pleasure made it easier to control and contain people. Christian history is replete with condemnations of human sexuality. The witch hunts also demonstrated great fear of female sexuality. The word “witch” comes from the old English wicce and wicca, meaning the male and female participants in the ancient pagan tradition which holds masculine, feminine and earthly aspects of God in great reverence. Hence, sexual desire was considered ungodly. Christian philosopher, Boethius, who wrote in The Consolation of Philosophy, “Woman is a temple built upon a sewer.” The 13th century St. Thomas Aquinas suggested that God had made a mistake in creating woman: Lutherans at Wittenberg debated whether women were really human beings at all. Orthodox Christians held women responsible for all sin. As the Bible’s Apocrypha states: “Of woman came the beginning of sin/ And thanks to her, we all must die.” The witch hunts were an eruption of orthodox Christianity’s vilification of women, “the weaker vessel” in St. Peter’s words. The second century St Clement of Alexandria wrote: “Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman.” And Lutherans at Wittenberg debated whether woman were really human beings at all. Orthodox Christians held women responsible for all sin. The Church father Tertullian also explained why women deserve their status as despised and inferior human beings.” Pope John XXII formalized the persecution of witchcraft in 1320 when he authorized the Inquisition to prosecute sorcery." Witch hunt were justified in those contexts with reference to the Bible’s prescription: “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” (Exodus 22:18). “The Burning Times” is an English term referring to the time of the Great European Witchhunts (1450-1750). Also sometimes referred to as Women’s Holocaust. Refer to Arthur Miller’s play, The Crucible. Refer to Women - The Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party.

(source: The Dark Side of Christian History - By Helen Ellerbe Morningstar Books July 1995 ISBN 0964487349 p. 115 - 121).

Sd,

You again dismissed my point completely. I don’t care about western influence. I’ve stated that ancient India treated women well. What about the violence today? How can you justify stating other religions are violent if you also have violence in your history medieval to present?

Surya, you are sidestepping here. You are not answering my direct questions. You don’t need to share info about the bible or other religions. We are talking about Hinduism now.

Thank you

You see what I am finding ironic here you are comparing a religion where a woman is considered to be an expendable part, a mere rib of man, and an evil temptress, a baby making machine and where official sanction was given by the pope for burning millions of them with a religion where a woman is considered to be sacred and divine, who can even reach the highest ranks of religion and became a guru, an equal with man, and where children are taught to respect and touch the feet of their mother :wink:

The history of the most of the known civilizations show that the further back we go into antiquity, the more unsatisfactory is found to be the general position of women. Hindu civilization is unique in this respect, for here we find a surprising exception to the general rule. The further back we go, the more satisfactory is found to be the position of women in more spheres than one; and the field of education is most noteworthy among them. There is ample and convincing evidence to show that women were regarded as perfectly eligible for the privilege of studying the Vedic literature and performing the sacrifices enjoined in it down to about 200 B.C. This need not surprise us, for some of the hymns of the Rig Veda are the compositions of rishnis or poetesses. Some twenty different hymns were composed by poetesses. Visvara, Sikaata, Nivavari, Ghosha, Romasa, Lopamudra, Apala and Urvasi are the names of some of them. Man could perform the Vedic sacrifices only if he had his wife by his side.

(source: Education in Ancient India - By A. S. Altekar p. 207-209 Nand Kishore & Bros. Varanasi.1965).

The taking of the rib is a story in the bible. It was NEVER taught literally. Remember, I was raised Catholic. So I don’t see any irony.

You still have not answered my question about the treatment of women today in India and the violence they endure. I’ve already said ancient Indian women were well treated. You are sidestepping.