Is Yoga Hinduism?

Spirituality Religion
#241

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;37220]Surya, you are sidestepping here. You are not answering my direct questions. You don’t need to share info about the bible or other religions. We are talking about Hinduism now.

Thank you[/QUOTE]

Lotusgirl ji,

I am talking about Hinduism here. You are talking about Modern India.

I think it is very clear from the evidence I am providing these are all modern problems in India brought on by Western influence. In Hindu India(the period of 7000BCE to 1000AD) women enjoyed freedom at a level that was unparalleled anywhere else in the world. All the historians I have cited have seconded this.

Where else in 500BCE was a woman given the rights to education, property, divorce, participation in religion, and remarriage? Please do tell.

#242

The famous and respected modern Indian philosopher Radhakrishnan says this about women in Hinduism:

Education for girls was regarded as quite important. While Brahmin girls were taught Vedic wisdom, girls of the Ksatriya community were taught the use of the bow and arrow. The Barhut sculptures represent skilful horsewomen in the army. Patanjali mentions the spearbearers (saktikis). Megasthenes speaks of Chandragupta’s bodyguard of Amazonian women. Kautilya mentions women archers (striganaih dhanvibhih). In houses as well as in the forest Universities of India, boys and girls were educated together. Atreyi studied under Valmiki along with Lava and Kusa, the sons of Rama. Fine arts like music, dancing and painting was specially encouraged in the case of girls.

Girls had upanayana performed for them and carried out the sandhya rites. A young daughter who has observed brahmacarya should be married to a bridegroom who is learned like her." (Yajur Veda VIII.1). Seclusion of women was unknown in the Vedic times. Young girls led free lives and had a decisive voice in the selection of their husbands. On festive occasions and at tournaments (samana) girls appeared in all their gaiety. Women had a share in the property of the father, and they were sometimes allowed to remain unmarried, with their parents and brothers. The Atharva Veda refers to daughters remaining with their parents until the end of their lives. A part of the ancestral property is given to them as dowry, which becomes their own property, and is called stridhana in later writings. “Home is not what is made of wood and stone; but where a wife is, there is the home.” (sanskrit: na grham kasthapasanair dayita yatra tad grham - Nitimanjari, 68)

(source: Religion and Society – By S. Radhakrishnan ASIN 8172231636 p. 140-149).

#243

Surya,

What is the % of Hindu in India? It’s well over 80%. So most people in India are Hindu.

Again, I’m not talking about ancient India. I already stated they treated women with respect. I am talking about India since the medieval times to present. Hinduism is Hinduism past and present. It doesn’t change, at least that is what you said.

#244

A very revealing comparative analysis of women in Christianity vis-a-vis women in Hinduism by this respected scholar:

Sir John Woodroffe aka Arthur Avalon (1865-1936) the well known scholar, Advocate-General of Bengal and sometime Legal Member of the Government of India. He served with competence for eighteen years and in 1915 officiated as Chief Justice. has written:

"Woman was to the Hebrews an inferior being. As Elizabeth Cady Stanton says in Woman’s Bible “The canon and civil law, Church and State alike taught that woman was made after man, of man and for man, an inferior being, subject to man.”

St Paul and the Christian fathers approved her inferiority and subjection. Their disdain for her and their contempt for marriage are known. St. Augustine asks himself why She was created at all. She is the “root of all evil” created from a rib of Adam’s body not from a part of his soul.”

In the feudal legislation of Europe woman sank lower and lower. As William Edward Hartpole Lecky says “woman sank to a lower legal position than she had ever occupied under Paganism. Ernest Legouve says (Histoire Morale des Femmes p. 183) that “under the feudal regime conjugal morals return to brutality.” Mrs. Cady Stanton gives a summary (History of Women’s Suffrage iii, p. 290) of the English Common Law which, basing itself on the alleged inferiority of woman, deprived her of the control of her person and property and made her morally and economically dependent on her husband.

On the contrary many beautiful sayings are found which give honor to woman, marriage, and motherhood, and Hindu law recognizes her rights of property (Stridhan). In the Shakta Tantra in particular, woman is regarded as a Divinity, as the earthy representation of the great Mother of all. Over and over again do they prescribe that no injury be done her, that no ill-word even be spoken to her, but that she should be honored always. The history of India tells of many women great in learning, administration, and battle-prowress from Gargi, Maitreyi onwards, and there were many more doubtless who are unknown to fame. "

(source: Is India Civilized - Essays on Indian Culture - By Sir John Woodroffe Ganesh & Co. Publishers 1922 p. 195 - 202).

So we have two discussions running parallel here right now:

  1. The treatment of women in Modern India

  2. The treatment of women in Hinduism and Hindu India

  3. It is clear that the treatment of women in Modern India, which although improving today significantly, is a social evil. This sadly still goes on in many rural communites in India. However, does this have anything to do with Hinduism? No, because Hinduism considers the woman sacred and divine, worthy of worship and an equal of man, if not at times elevates her above man. What this is a result of is poverty, illiteracy and Western systems of economics. The reason Indian villagers engage in the evil practice of female infanticide is because a woman does not bring a sustainable income to the household, but a man does. These poor Indian villagers pin their hopes in having male children to get them out of poverty. Again who is to blame for the poverty of India today? 400 years of economic exploitation by the British. India’s problems today are largely because of the West.

  4. It is very clear from all the scholars and historians that women in Hinduism enjoy great freedom and reverence. In Hindu India they could choose who they wanted to marry, remarry, own property, they could participate in religious rituals, had a right to education and could even become gurus. Women also fought in the army. This tradition continued right up to the times of Rani Laxmi Bhai, the Hindu female warrior, who was a terror on the British. There is no other religion where women enjoyed so many rights.

#245

Lotusgirl,

Although India is made up 80% Hindu demographic, it is not a Hindu country. In fact on the contrary the ruling government, the National Congress Party is anti-Hindu. All of its policies appease minorities(Christians, Muslims, Sikhs etc) and this is because they vote for the National Congress party in huge numbers. The language of education, class and commerce is English. The middle class and the elite in India all speak English. The legal system is English. The government system is English. The economic system is English. The education system is English.

If you stopped the average Indian person on the street in India and asked them to tell you about Vedanta they wouldn’t have a clue. Most Indian people don’t understand Hinduism or the history of Hinduism because they are not taught it. It has been like this for the last 200 years.

Modern India has nothing to do with Hinduism.

#246

Have you watched a typical modern Bollywood film? It’s all Western. There is barely anything Hindu within these films. Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w656ZPdk04I

Can you see even an iota of Hinduism in this? This is from one of the highest grossing films at the Indian box office of all time.

#247

And now to expose the Western origins of Dowry-murders in India:

Dowry Murder: The Imperial Origins of a Cultural Crime - How British colonialism created the economic and social climate in India that give rise to various social ills.

James Peggs (1739-1850) a man of cloth and a missionary, wrote:

"The doctrines of the Hindoo religion have been singularly careful to protect the female sex and infants from violence; and its is unlawful to put a woman to death for any offense whatever…“Let all the four castes of Brahmin, Khetry (Khatri, the diminutive of Kshatriya) Bys (Vaishya), and Sooder (Shudra), know that the killing of a woman is the greatest of crimes.”

The Hindu custom of dowry has long been blamed for the murder of wives and female infants in India. In this highly provocative book, Veena Oldenburg argues that these killings are neither about dowry nor reflective of an Indian culture or caste system that encourages violence against women. Rather, such killings can be traced directly to the influences of the British colonial era.

In the Pre-Colonial period, dowry was an institution managed by women, for women, to enable them to establish their status and have recourse in an emergency. As a consequence of the massive economic and societal upheaval brought on by British rule, women’s entitlements to the precious resources obtained from land were erased and their control of the system diminished, ultimately resulting in a devaluing of their very lives.

Taking us on a journey into the colonial Punjab, she skillfully follows the paper trail left by British bureaucrats to indict them for interpreting these crimes against women as the inherent defects of Hindu caste culture. The British, publicized their “civilizing mission” and blamed the caste system in order to cover up the devastation their own agrarian policies had wrought on the Indian countryside.

(source: Dowry Murder: The Imperial Origins of a Cultural Crime - By Veena Talwar Oldenburg 42 - 46.)

In other words prior to the British coming into India there were no dowry crimes. As soon as the British came to India, Iindia became an impoverished nation in every way, not just materially but even cuturally.

It is amazing that we are not taught about this terrible holocaust against Indian people that the British brought about. Within the space of a few decades India saw terrible famines that killed tens of millions of Indians. Education was outlawed. Industies were taxed to death. What the British did to India was nothing less than the holocausts against the Jews by the Nazis. However, there is obviously a double standard. If you deny the jewish holocausts you are considered evil, insane, abominable - And yet it is ok to deny the Indian holocausts? Heck its ok even to blame to the native culture for it. What an up-side down world we live in.

If your point your fingers at Indians problem today, you will just have a finger pointing right back at you. It is because of the West India is in the state it is today. History condemns the West for what it has done to the world. The native Americans, aborigines, the blacks and the Indians all know very well what the West did to them. Like I said before, I feel very sorry for the native Americans and aborigines, because they have been pretty much exterminated. Even today the oppression of the Native Americans and aboriginies continues. 1 in 4 Native American women get raped by white man. Disgusting. Really, the West has no right to criticise anybody elses culture.

#248

The very sad plight of Native Americans living in absolute destitution today:

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/337439.aspx

CROW CREEK SIOUX RESERVATION, S.D. – In a nation known for its wealth, there are pockets of intense poverty and despair that many Americans know nothing about.

These pockets do not exist in the inner city, but on remote reservations where Native Americans struggle to survive.

CBN News traveled to the Crow Creek Sioux reservation in South Dakota for a closer look at what some call America’s forgotten people.

continue to battle against destructive forces. Forces like poverty, substance abuse and suicide to name a few, continually strike this segment of the population to a greater degree than most other Americans.

High Suicide Rate

Norm Thompson is a member of the Crow Creek Sioux tribe who lives on the reservation.

“I thought I was all alone and I tried committing suicide,” he told CBN News. “And the person that found me was my oldest daughter.”

Addicted to drugs and alcohol, Thompson blames life on the reservation without the proper guidance for the desperate situation in which he found himself. Tragically, his story is all too common.

According to the Indian Health Service, the suicide rate for Native Americans is 60 percent higher than the general population. On the Crow Creek Sioux reservation, the suicide rate was at one time seven times higher than the national average.

Poverty and Despair

Like Thompson, Sandy Gabe was also an alcoholic. He says substance abuse is a big problem with many Native Americans using their government assistance checks to feed their habits, instead of their families.

“It’s the first thing they do,” he explained. “It’s drugs and alcohol. Later on, maybe it’s some groceries. Maybe they feed their kids. Their priorities are all wrong.”

CBN News asked reservation resident Shane Crazy Bull what he had encountered and had seen among his fellow tribesmen. “Weed, chewing, drinking, meth,” he replied.

So what is behind all this despair?

Experts say there are many factors, such as the historical mistreatment of Native Americans, including forced cultural changes. Living conditions on the reservations are the same as you would find in third world countries. Many of the people’s homes do not have indoor plumbing and electricity.

CBN News examined the living conditions on the reservation. Many of the houses were in poor condition. When we first approached one home, you could see the broken glass in the windows, the makeshift plywood entryway, and the ground was littered with beer cans and other trash.

The U.S. Census Bureau reports about one of every four American Indians lives below the poverty level.

The Crow Creek Sioux reservation lies in Buffalo County. Its per capita income of just a little more than $5,000 a year makes it the poorest county in the country.

On some reservations, unemployment runs as high as 80 percent. Compare that statistic to less than five percent for the U.S. as a whole.

“The children and the adults all try to cope with what they have,” reservation resident Gracie Pomani told CBN News. “It is hard out here, because a lot of them don’t have the heat for their houses or the wood for their stoves.”

This is incredibly sad. What have the American people done to address the plight of native Americans?

#249

Native American Women in America:

http://www.now.org/nnt/spring-2001/nativeamerican.html

Native American women experience the highest rate of violence of any group in the United States. A report released by the Department of Justice, American Indians and Crime, found that Native American women suffer violent crime at a rate three and a half times greater than the national average. National researchers estimate that this number is actually much higher than has been captured by statistics; according to the Department of Justice over 70% of sexual assaults are never reported.

As women of color, Native Americans experience not only sexual violence, but also institutionalized racism. Alex Wilson, a researcher for the Native American group Indigenous Perspectives, found a high level of tension between law enforcement and Native American women, who report numerous encounters where the police treated the women as if they were not telling the truth.

The Report on Violence Against Alaska Native Women in Anchorage, conducted by community agencies in Anchorage, Alaska, found a widespread fear and distrust for law enforcement. Nearly all of the women interviewed felt the system had “turned its back on them” and insisted that their rights had been systematically violated. The report documents an instance involving an Anchorage police officer and a Native Alaskan woman who had been held hostage and dragged across the lawn by an intimate partner. The officer ignored her report and proceeded to tell the woman to undress so he could look for bruises. “I was afraid they might lift up my clothing or maybe that they all would rape me . . . ,” the woman said. “ I was just terrified.” The police falsely claimed the woman was drunk at the time of the incident despite a hospital report that refuted this. The woman’s attacker was never convicted.

http://www.amnesty.ca/campaigns/sisters_overview.php

How many Sisters do we have to lose?
Helen Betty Osborne was a 19-year-old Cree student from northern Manitoba. She dreamed of becoming a teacher. On November 12, 1971, four white men abducted her from the streets of The Pas. She was sexually assaulted and brutally murdered. A judge said later:

… the men who abducted Osborne believed that young Aboriginal women were objects with no human value beyond sexual gratification … Betty Osborne would be alive today had she not been an Aboriginal woman.

The murder of Helen Betty Osborne – and her family’s long search for justice – is one of the nine stories of missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls told in Stolen Sisters: Discrimination and Violence against Indigenous Women in Canada, a report by Amnesty International.

These stories represent just part of the terror and suffering that has been inflicted on Indigenous or Aboriginal women and their families across Canada.

#250

For the reason that thera are hindu who don’t know yoga, and non-hindu who know and do yoga, I suppose that yoga has nothing to do with religions as we consider them.

This is the subtle line which separate religions (as something we don’t know and give to other entities what we cannot explain or control) and philosophy, in particular metaphisics.

#251

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36050]Namaste,

In order not to derail Asuri’s thread with the discussion that has just restarted between me and Scales, and also with Lotusgirl in another thread, I decided to start a new topic on this matter, where we can deal with this controversial issue once and for all. It will keep cropping up, because it is obvious that not everybody agrees that Yoga is not Hinduism.

My position on this matter is already well known. Yoga is absolutely Hinduism. The word itself is Hinduism in a nutshell: Self-realization. The spiritual practice of uniting the individual soul(us) with the supreme soul or connecting with the absolute reality(Brahman) that underlies all of reality. This is the supreme goal of Hinduism. Just like entering the kingdom of god and being with Jesus is the goal of Christianity. The word Yoga is a Sanskrit word which is the sacred language of Hinduism(like Hebrew is of Judaism) and it is the language of the Vedas. The first mention and description of Yoga is indeed in the Vedas. The most popular Hindu scripture, the Bhagvad Gita, is a treatise on Yoga. The classical text of Yoga, Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras, is a Hindu scripture. The same goes for the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, Shiva Samhita and Yoga Vasistha.

To suggest to a Hindu that Yoga is not Hinduism is as absurd as suggesting that Buddha is not Buddhism and Christ is not Christianity.

Now for the perspective of others:

by Swami Param

Understanding (real) Yoga is Hinduism is the issue. A simple bit of research will uncover that all of (real) Yoga is Hinduism. So, where does that leave the so-called “yoga” of today? In a word, the “yoga” of today is phony. Just imagine “Certified Baptism Teachers” (and non-Christian, at that) opening “Baptism Studios.” “Underwater Therapy: $20 a class.” This ridiculous scene is the phony yoga movement of today.

Real Yoga are the many, progressive teachings and practices of Hinduism; taught by qualified Hindus and never for a fee. Yoga is a Sanskrit/Hindu word meaning, “Yuj Atman Brahman ca;” e.g. "to yoke Atman (individual Soul) and Brahman (Soul Source). The various Yogas constitute the Hindu religion: Karma Yoga (ethics), Bhakti Yoga (devotion), Raja Yoga (meditation/contemplation) and Jnana Yoga (enlightenment). There are several Yogas within these classic Hindu Yogas such as Mantra Yoga (chanting), Japa Yoga (chanting on Hindu prayer beads), Nada Yoga (music) and Hatha Yoga (Hindu devotional postures). This latter Hindu/Yoga is the one most often distorted with one hears the word “yoga.”

Like all the Hindu Yogas, real Hatha Yoga is profound in-depth. Real Hatha Yoga are devotional postures worshiping the Soul within; the elements; nature; the creatures in nature; Hindu teachers and Hindu Spirit Beings. Actually, the recorded evidence of the many Hatha Yoga asanas actually comes much later in Hindu history. And, strikingly, in this Hatha Yoga Pradapika, the student is warned to keep Hatha Yoga secret! Why?

All one has to do is look at the so-called “yoga” today. The Hindu Seers realized that if you give the naive something like Hatha Yoga (which has a strong physical component), they will perverted into that which it is not suppose to be-glorification of the body. Today’s phony yoga and phony teachers revel in the ego-centric characteristics of picture, personality and price tag.

It is not a coincidence that the so-called “modern yoga” has produced numerous sexual and monetary scandals. Actually, the “role models” for this unethical behavior came from India and set upon deluding “star-struck” western devotees. So, what is the solution to this madness? Simply stop pretending to teach this phony Yoga. If interested in real Yoga, prospective students should look to Hindus and Hindu organizations to learn Hinduism and its various Yogas. Perhaps some of these more serious students will do the right thing and formally become a Hindu and then perhaps a teacher. Anything short of what should be a common sense approach to real Yoga, is to perpetuate a delusion.

[/QUOTE]

Hehe its very insightful of you to put so much emphasis on a word. Let us thank the matrka chakra.

“Yoga is absolutely Hinduism”

I suppose so, so you would deny someone of union with Shiva/God/Brahman/etc because they had learned it from someone whom isn’t a hindu?

“The spiritual practice of uniting the individual soul(us) with the supreme soul or connecting with the absolute reality(Brahman) that underlies all of reality”

How can you unite with something that is not different from you?

“The first mention and description of Yoga is indeed in the Vedas.”

Didn’t the Dravidians/Siva cult use the term before the “so-called” Aryan Invaders brought the Vedas to N. India?

“Real Yoga are the many, progressive teachings and practices of Hinduism; taught by qualified Hindus”

Really… Wow, cause most of the greatest Saints and Sages of the past and present do not even call themselves Hindus for they came to understand that which is not Hindusism is still their very Self… Ie… Explain to me how something can be un-Shiva?

"It is not a coincidence that the so-called “modern yoga” has produced numerous sexual and monetary scandals. "

Really? What about Satya Sai Baba? :confused:

Weird, you keep going on about Hinduism this and Hinduism that and how yoga is for Hindus and can only be taught by Hindu teachers and yada yada yada. So how do you define Hinduism? Are they adherents of the vedas, the yamas and niyamas? Are they Vaishnaivas? Smriti? Are they Shaivites? Well which kind then? Avdaita Vedantins? Monistist Shaivites like that of Kashmir? Then which one? Krama? Kuala? Trika? Hmmm…

Hinduism is a culture of people. I don’t see anywhere in any agama, tantra, stotra, purana, upanishad that says that one must be Hindu or from India to practice yoga.

I do agree that a qualified Guru is probably the most important thing, but any man of wisdom would realize that crusading here on an internet forum is really a waste of breath. Who are you as an ego to question the motives of Shivas play? If God wants people to do thing out of ignorance, then so mote it be.

Pranams.

Guru OM

-D

#252

This Surya guy is so conceited and disillusioned! Whatever is inconvenient and discomforting for him he rejects as not being a part of Hindu religion.

For thousands of years! I repeat THOUSANDS OF YEARS Brahmins and Kshatriyas relegated millions of so called low-castes to a life none better than animals! Even to this day there are temples like Tirupati where only Brahmins can cook in the temple Kitchen.
And all this guy has to say is, Hinduism is great! It is superior! blah blah blah.

And all his tall talk is convincing who? Not even a single member of this forum, if I hazard a guess.
Not even a single person has spokes a disrespectful word against him uptil now and he has disrespected every major religion here.

I ask the forum administrator, how can he allow such a thing to go on? If a person is not kicked out for disrespecting other religions then whats the limit?

#253

And if the norm is of cut and paste here is what Hindu scriptures say about position of women:

women in Vedas

Women in Vedas Soma Sablok The Indian Constitution guarantees equal rights to both the sexes and does not discriminate on the basis of caste, color and creed However, despite the constitutional provisions, do women enjoy equality with men ?

The answer is ‘No’. Their condition still remains miserable. Newspaper carry report of rape and burning of women for not bringing sufficient dowry or their inability to satisfy the demands of greedy in laws.

Basically, out present attitude towards women streams from our religious scriptures which refer to women as contempt. Our oldest book are the ‘Vedas’ which contain highly objectionable and condemnable passages concerning women. Taking cue from the ‘Vedas’ authors of subsequent religious scriptures referred to women in more contemptuous form. ‘Sati pratha’ (custom of burning the widow with the body of her husband), ‘Dasi Pratha’ (keeping the slave girls), ‘Niyog Pratha’ (ancient Aryan custom of childless widow or women having sexual intercourse with a man other than husband to beget child), were among cruel customs responsible for the plight of the women.

Naturally, seeking shelter under such religious sanctions, unscrupulous women disgraced women to the maximum possible extent and made them means of satisfying their lust. No one wanted a daughter. As a result; female infant came to be considered unwanted. No one wanted a daughter. Everyone was interested in having a son. The birth of the son was celebrated, but the birth of the daughter plunged family into gloom. This attitude still persists, even though certain other customs have undergone changes.

‘Rig Veda’ itself says that a women should beget sons. The newly married wife is blessed so that she could have 10 sons. So much so, that for begetting a son, ‘Vedas’ prescribe a special ritual
called ‘Punsawan sanskar’ (a ceremony performed during third month of pregnancy). During the ceremony it is prayed:

“Almighty God, you have created this womb. Women may be born somewhere else but sons should be born from this womb” - Atharva Ved 6/11/3

“O Husband protect the son to be born. Do not make him a women” - Atharva Ved 2/3/23

In ‘Shatpath Puran (shatpath Brahman)’ a sonless women has been termed as unfortunate.

‘Rig Veda’ censures women by saying:
“Lord Indra himself has said that women has very little intelligence. She cannot be taught” - Rig Ved 8/33/17

At another placein Rig Veda it is written:
“There cannot be any friendship with a women. Her heart is more cruel than heyna” - Rig Ved 10/95/15.

'Yajur Ved (Taitriya Sanhita)'m- “Women code says that the women are without energy. They should not get a share in property. Even to the wicked they speak in feeble manner” - Yajur Ved 6/5/8/2

Shatpath Puran, preachings of the ‘Yajur Veda’ clubs women, ‘shudras’(untouchables), doga, crows together and says falsehood, sin and gloom remain integrated in them. (14/1/1/31)

In ‘Aiterey Puran’, preaching of the ‘Rig Veda’ in harsih chandra -Narad dialogue, Narad says: “The daughter causes pain”

#254

Despicable

To insult and humiliate women further, the religious books speak of women having sexual intercourse with animals or expressing desire for intercourse with them. What further insult can be heaped on women.
In ‘Yajur Veda’ such references are found at a number of places where the principal wife of the host is depicted as having intercourse with a horse.

For example consider the following hymn:
“All wife of the host reciting three mantras go round the horse. While praying, they say: ‘O horse, you are, protector of the community on the basis of good qualities, you are, protector or treasure of happiness. O horse, you become my husband.’” - Yajur Veda 23/19.

After the animal is purified by the priest, the principal wife sleeps near the horse and says: “O Horse, I extract the semen worth conception and you release the semen worth conception’” - Yajur Veda 23/20.

The horse and principal wife spread two legs each. Then the Ardhvaryu (priest) orders to cover the oblation place, raise canopy etc. After this, the principal wife of the host pulls penis of the horse and puts it in her vagina and says: “This horse may release semen in me.” -Yajur Veda 23/20.

Then the host, while praying to the horse says:
“O horse, please throw semen on the upper part of the anus of my wife. Expand your penis and insert it in the vagina because after insertion, this penis makes women happy and lively” - 23/21.

In the Vedic age, the customs of polygamy was prevalent. Each wife spent most of the time devising ways and means to become favorite to her husband.

Clear references are available in ‘Rig Veda’, (14/45),’ and Atharva Veda (3/81)’

#255

Custom of Polygamy

The Aryans in those days used to attack the original inhabitants of this place, or other tribe within their own race; loot them and snatch away their women. Thus, militant and wicked men had more wives. This custom of polygamy helped a great deal in bringing down the women.

In ‘Rig Ved’ (10/59) it is written that Lord Indra had many queens that were either defeated or killed by his principal wife.

In ‘Aitrey Puran’, preachings of ‘Rig Veda’, (33/1), there is a reference to the effect that Harish Chandra had one hundred Wives.

‘Yajur Veda’ in the context of ‘Ashva Medha’ (Horse Sacrificing ceremony), says that many wives of Harish Chandra participated in the ‘Yagyna’ (religious sacrafice).

In ‘Shatpath Puran(Shatpath Brahmin)’, preachings (13/4/1/9), of the Veda, it is written that four wives do service in ‘Ashva Megha’. In another Puran (Tatiraity Brahamin, 3/8/4), it is written that wives are like property.

Not only one man had many wives (married and slave girls), but there were cases of many men having a joint wife. It is confirmed from the following hymn in ‘Atharva Veda’: “O men, sow a seed in this fertile women” - Atharva Veda 14/1

Both these customs clearly show that a women was treated like a moving property. The only difference between the two customs was that whereas according to former one man had a number of movable properties, in the latter, women a joint movable property.

‘Vedas’ also sanction ‘Sati Pratha’

Widow was burnt at the funeral Pyre of her husband. The widow was burnt at the funeral pyre of her husband so that she may remain his slave, birth after birth and may never be released from the bonds of slavery.

The Atharva Veda says:
“O dead man following the religion and wishing to go to the husbands world, his women comes to you.” In the other world also may you give her children and wealth in the same manner. In the ‘Vedas’, widow is treated inhumanly. For example it is mentioned that on death of her husband, the wife was handed over to some other man, or to her husband younger brother.

It is known that even at that time women used to have sexual intercourse with a person other than her husband to beget a child. The hymn says:
"O woman, get up and adopt the worldly life again. It is futile to lie with this dead man. Get up and become the wife of the man who is holding your hand and who loves you. - Rig Ved 10/18/8

Apparently this shows that woman is considered to be a property. Whenever and whosoever desired, could become her master. If the women was not remarried, then her head was shaved. This is evident from Atharva Veda ( 14/2/60 ).

This custom was obviously meant to disgrace her. For what connection does shaving of widows head has with the death of her husband ? The condition of widows was miserable. She was considered to be a harbinger of inauspiciousness and was not allowed to participate in ceremonies like marriage. This custom is still prevalent in some places. She has to spend her life alone In Rig Veda therre are references to slave girls being given in charity as gifts. After killing the menfolk of other tribes, particularly of the native inhabitants, their women were rounded up and used as slave girls. It was custom to present slave girls to one other as gifts. The kings used to present chariots full of slave girls to their kith and kin and preists (Rig Veda 6/27/8 ). King Trasdasyu had given 50 slave girls. It was custom to present slave girls to Saubhri Kandav (Rig Veda 8/38, 5/47/6 ).

#256

Intercourse without marriage

A slave girl was called ‘Vadhu’ (wife), with whom sexual intercourse could be performed without any kind of marriage ceremony. These girls belonged to the men who snatched them from the enemies, or who had received them in dowry, or as gifts. Only the men to whom they belonged could have sexual intercourse with them. But some slave girls were kept as joint property of the tribe or the village. Any man could have sexual rlations with them. These girls became the prostitutes. The ‘Vedas’ also talk about ‘Niyog’, the custom of childless, widow or woman having sexual intercourse with a person other than her husband to beget a child.

In simple words ‘Niyog’ means sending a married woman or a widow to a particular man for sexual intercourse so that she gets a son. Indication of this custom is available in ‘Rig Veda’ In ‘Aadiparva’ of ‘Mahabharata’ (chap. 95 and 103), it is mentioned that Satywati had appointed her son to bestow sons to the queens of Vichitrvirya, the younger brother of Bhishma, as a result of which Dhratrashtra and Pandu were born.

Pandu himself has asked his wife, Kunti, to have sexual intercourse with a brahmin to get a son (Aadi Parva, chapters 120 to 123).

Chastity of woman was not safe

In the name of ‘beejdan’ (seed donation), they used to have sexual intercourse with issueless women. This was a cruel religious custom and the chastity of the women was not safe. The so called caretakers of the religion were allowed to have sexual intercourse with other man’s wife. From ‘Niyog pratha’ it csn be inferred withouth fear of contradiction that women were looked upon as mere child producing machines.

In ‘The Position of women in Hindu Civilization’ Dr. B. R. Ambedkar writes:
“Though women is not married to man, she was considered to be a property of the entire family. But she was not getting share out of the property of her husband, only son could be successor to the property.”

Gajdhar Prasad Baudh says: " No woman of the Vedic age can be treated as pure. Vedic man could not keep even the relations brother-sister and father-daughter sacred from the oven of rape and debauchery/adultery named ‘Niyog’. Under the influence of intoxication of wine, they used to recognize neither their sister nor their daughter and also did not keep the relations with them in mind. It is evident from their debauchery and adultery what a miserable plight of women was society in then. (Refer ‘Arya Niti Ka Bhadaphor’. 5th Edition page 14).

In the ‘Vedas’ there are instances where daughter was impregnated by her father and the sister by her brother. The following example of sexual intercourse is found between father and daughter in the ‘Rig Veda’:
“When father had sexual intercourse with his daughter, then with the help of earth he released his semen and at that time the Righteous Devas (deities) formed this ‘Vartrashak (Rudra) Devta’ (Pledge keeper diety named Rudra)” - Atharva Veda (20/96/15).

Women: Low grade creatures

From the aforesaid account, it is clear that in the Vedas women have been considered to be low grade creatures. It is high time we expose scriptures, preaching such inhuman teachings so that they lose their credibility. Only then can there be a hope on women’s liberation, and of equality between sexes which is guaranteed by Indian constitution.

#257

Namaste whatismyname,

As Aryan invasion theory is now dead, widely discredited by modern scholarship, so are the translations done by Aryan invasion theorists of the Rig Veda. It has been exposed for exactly what it is by modern scholars a racist theory put forward by British colonialists in order to advance missionary activity in India to convert the natives and as a means of exercising political control. Even the creator of Aryan invasion theory later refuted it himself. The people who believe in Aryan invasion theory today are either white supremists such as neo-nazis or separatists in India.

The translations you cited above are based on Aryan invasion theory. In the thread, “Calm and rational discussion of Hinduism and Abrahamic religions” I have posted an authentic and detailed translation of the first few hymns of the Rig veda and done a comparative analysis with Griffith’s translation examining the word-for-word breakdown and showing how the European translations completely ignored the complex etymology of the Sanskrit words and lacked scholarship in translating them. The method they used to translate them was presupposed on the Aryan invasion theory. In order to render the translation they invented a method known as comparative linguistics of studying the meaning of similar sounding words in the Rig veda with other Indo-European languages, rather than using actual Sanskrit dictionaries and grammar. This is because they were convinced the Rig Veda was composed in the caucasian mountains, so rather than looking at Sanskrit to decode the meaning, they looked at European languages to decode them. Moreover, they assumed that the Vedic people were barbarian.

It a bit like this my friend. If I want to translate something from Italian, rather than looking at Italian dictionaries itself to translate it, I look at every other language except Italian for what the words sounds like. Then translate it according to that. It is easy for any objective scholar to see that this is not a valid method of translating another language text.

The translations of the Rig Veda done by the authentic Sanskrit tradition using the vykarana method does not produce anything that even closely resembles the translations you cite. So by posting these translations you are just wasting your time, because they are bad and outdated translations. Citing these translations of racist 19th century scholars of the sacred scriptures of another culture is as credible as citing the 19th century research proving the white race to be superior and measuring the skulls of different races to measure intelligence.

#258

;)[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37326]
The translations of the Rig Veda done by the authentic Sanskrit tradition using the vykarana method does not produce anything that even closely resembles the translations you cite. So by posting these translations you are just wasting your time, because they are bad and outdated translations. Citing these translations of racist 19th century scholars of the sacred scriptures of another culture is as credible as citing the 19th century research proving the white race to be superior and measuring the skulls of different races to measure intelligence.[/QUOTE]

You sound like an angry Hindu. Why so angry? You don’t sound like a yogi. Dialectics usually don’t resort to insults.

You shouldn’t be so worried about westerners practicing a form of yoga that may be devoid of its essence(which really isn’t yoga at all anyway, so why get mad?), you should be worried about the westernization of India and Hindu’s loosing their own culture.

BTW Sikhs, tibetan buddhists and Sufi muslims employ forms of yoga and they don’t call themselves hindus. Are they terrible human beings too?

I think you just have a problem with caucasion westerners. Hey didn’t we all come from the same place in Africa to begin with? We’re all related

#259

Namaste Trika Yogi,

I am not angry per se, but I am completely straightforward and brutally honest. I do not appreciate the attacks on Hinduism by the West. This has been going on for a very long time first by 19th century scholars who spread massive propoganda demonizing Hinduism, exaggerating modern practices which occured within India, mistranslating its sacred scriptures and calling its sages barbarians, distorting its history and claiming its founders were foreign invaders. Then continuous portrayal of Hinduism as a religion of idolators, snake charmers, gods and goddesses and cows. Now the attempt to disassocate Yoga from Hinduism which basically is the philosophical teachings of Hinduism. There is even a term that has been coined for this today it is called Hinduphobia.

Like I said we Hindus have no problem if the West practice our Yoga. That has never really been the contention here. We do have a problem with spreading propoganda that Yoga is not a Hindu philosophy and practice.

Sikhs, Tibetan Buddhists and Sufis all borrow Yoga philosophy and practice from Hinduism. No problem with that my friend. The problem comes when you do not acknowledge Hinduism is the source.

I have no problem with ‘Caucasian Westerners’. The vast majority of my friends are ‘Caucasian Westerners’. I have a problem with ignorant Westerners making claims that Yoga is not Hinduism.

The central issue here is respect as I have reiterated many times. If you can respect the fact that Yoga is a formal Hindu religious practice and philosophy and defines Hinduism’s teaching then we have no problem. I have no problem with Christians, Muslims or atheists doing Yoga.

#260

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37328]Namaste Trika Yogi,

I am not angry per se, but I am completely straightforward and brutally honest. I do not appreciate the attacks on Hinduism by the West. This has been going on for a very long time first by 19th century scholars who spread massive propoganda demonizing Hinduism, exaggerating modern practices which occured within India, mistranslating its sacred scriptures and calling its sages barbarians, distorting its history and claiming its founders were foreign invaders. Then continuous portrayal of Hinduism as a religion of idolators, snake charmers, gods and goddesses and cows. Now the attempt to disassocate Yoga from Hinduism which basically is the philosophical teachings of Hinduism. There is even a term that has been coined for this today it is called Hinduphobia.

Like I said we Hindus have no problem if the West practice our Yoga. That has never really been the contention here. We do have a problem with spreading propoganda that Yoga is not a Hindu philosophy and practice.

Sikhs, Tibetan Buddhists and Sufis all borrow Yoga philosophy and practice from Hinduism. No problem with that my friend. The problem comes when you do not acknowledge Hinduism is the source.

I have no problem with ‘Caucasian Westerners’. The vast majority of my friends are ‘Caucasian Westerners’. I have a problem with ignorant Westerners making claims that Yoga is not Hinduism.

The central issue here is respect as I have reiterated many times. If you can respect the fact that Yoga is a formal Hindu religious practice and philosophy and defines Hinduism’s teaching then we have no problem. I have no problem with Christians, Muslims or atheists doing Yoga.[/QUOTE]

I hope someday you come to the realization that it matters not. In the long run and in the blink of Shiva’s eye the Universe came to existence and will fade away and your fervant protection of an “ideal” is nothing more than ego and would be frowned upon by the great siddha and lineage of true yogi’s from bharat.

And yes I am a caucasion westerner who understand the sanatana dharma and the esoteric wisdom of the great India. I am a huge proponent of Hindu thought, but not really a fan of certain aspects, ie. in certain temples white westerners are not allowed.

There is a difference between educating and another being defensive of a personal ideal. If some people don’t get it? THen well they don’t and everything will be right in the mind of God.:razz:

Om namah Shivaya

Pranams

-D