I’m sorry you are upset but I still think it was not an appropriate comment to make. I am familiar with the posts and the banter between the two of you. I’m sure you were just trying to make light of the situation. I don’t think it appropriate to discuss in this thread, so you can PM me if you like.
Thank you.
Sorry what does PM mean? anyone?
Yes Yogiadam and I did digress from the specifics of the title of the thread…sorry everyone…must stop doing that now.
In the context of the post I had with Yogiadam…it was appropriate thank you
I will try in future to be very accurate and proper and sweet and keep my opinions entirely to myself …just for you Lotusgirl
Hang on, this means I will have to leave the Forum
I am watching myself very very Karefully…oops I mean carefully
PM is private message.
I will try in future to be very accurate and proper and sweet and keep my opinions entirely to myself …just for you Lotusgirl
Hang on, this means I will have to leave the Forum
I hope you are just being silly.
In the correct context or not, it is my belief that the comments were not appropriate and too personal. Should have been sent as a private message. Just my opinion.
Let’s move on.
Just cant resist one last comment on it…sorry lotusgirl…It was Yogiadam that made it very public and I was just responding…if he had sent me a PM (What does one put for Prime Minister) I would have responded privately I think Yogiadam wanted to make it public, for all to see.
Just found out where the smileys are kept…yes it was a joke
I am no expert on this topic but I could find a legitimate sourc, the book : Yoga: frredom and Immortality" by Mircea Eliade, a well known religious scholar.
Excerpts from the book:
The gradual spread of Yoga practice can be traced both in juridico-theological literature and in the didactic and religious portions of the Mahabharata. Yet, it would be diificult to define the successive stages of inflirtation, which will finally result in the almost total conquest of Indian spirituality by yoga…
The planting of Yoga techniques in the very heart of Hinduism took place at a moment of crisis for orthodoxy (Brahmanism)…
What it is called “Hinduism” dates from the still little known period when the ancient Vedic pantheon was eclipsed by the enormous popularity of a Siva, a Visnu, or a Khrishna…
You will find lots of lots of info in this classic book. Actually you can download the book
from the site
http://www.4shared.com/account/document/vUeoIKce/2__Mircea_Eliade-_YOGA_IMMOR.html
A thorough study is necessary before rushing in with answers.
A few things about the author, Mircea Eliade:
He was a renowned scholar and university professor of History of Religions, University of Chicago
He wrote many books about religion
He studied in India, Univesity of Calcutta, with Professor Surendranath Dasgupta.
He lived for years and studied with Swami Sivananda in his ashram
He practised yoga for years, in the caves, together with other yogis.
I remember one of his books, in which he describes his out of body experience with yoga.
If you want more info, you can just search the Internet.
Please forgive me if I reiterate anything that may have been posted previously in this thread, but 14 pages of text walls is definitely tl;dr for me. :lol:
First, let’s look at the definition of ‘yoga’. It means to ‘yoke’ or to ‘unite’.
Whilst this may be common knowledge on a forum dedicated to yoga, now let’s look at the implications thereof.
Many of the world’s religions are all about ‘uniting’ the soul with a Higher Power. About bringing balance into our lives through ritual and introspection. This basic concept is as old as thinking man.
Yoga is a way of life that for all intents and purposes, predates religion.
It is based upon universal laws and concepts that were discovered/named by Hindus and Hinduism incorporates the yogic tradition as one of its primary tenets, but even still, it’s rather the notion of a religion ‘adopting’ a philosophy than being based upon it.
Even if you called yoga ‘a disciplinary/exercise regime’ if you called Pranayama ‘relaxation therapy’ if you took away every reference to Sanskrit and every reference to Hinduism, nothing would change whatsoever in the application of yogic practice.
Therefore, there should be no spiritual/moral/philosophical implications associated with any religion or creed practicing yoga.
[QUOTE=Nobody;39693]Please forgive me if I reiterate anything that may have been posted previously in this thread, but 14 pages of text walls is definitely tl;dr for me. :lol:
First, let’s look at the definition of ‘yoga’. It means to ‘yoke’ or to ‘unite’.
Whilst this may be common knowledge on a forum dedicated to yoga, now let’s look at the implications thereof.
Many of the world’s religions are all about ‘uniting’ the soul with a Higher Power. About bringing balance into our lives through ritual and introspection. This basic concept is as old as thinking man.
Yoga is a way of life that for all intents and purposes, predates religion.
It is based upon universal laws and concepts that were discovered/named by Hindus and Hinduism incorporates the yogic tradition as one of its primary tenets, but even still, it’s rather the notion of a religion ‘adopting’ a philosophy than being based upon it.
Even if you called yoga ‘a disciplinary/exercise regime’ if you called Pranayama ‘relaxation therapy’ if you took away every reference to Sanskrit and every reference to Hinduism, nothing would change whatsoever in the application of yogic practice.
Therefore, there should be no spiritual/moral/philosophical implications associated with any religion or creed practicing yoga.[/QUOTE]
In my opinion, you are quite right.
The book Yoga:Immortality and Freedom, by Mircea Eliade says, in my opinion, the same thing:
Yoga conquered the Hinduism spirituality because the masses of the people needed a concrete, personal religious experience. It scorned rituals and theology.
Hinduism in its broad sense aka Sanatana Dharma is older than the puranic period Mircea Eliade talks about. Moreover it has been written during a time where Aryan Invasion Theory was admitted by the Western academics, it has been debunked since then. Hinduism is a set of traditions, cultures, ways of life. It is playing with words. Saying that Yoga predates Hinduism thus it must not be associated with it is a pure sophism. I do not think that it is easy to accept for a lot of Westerners and Abrahamic people. I have seen people practising since decades and being quite advanced on some spiritual path but still have difficulties to accept fully. There are many reasons for that. So I think that it is a lost case on such a forum to wait that everybody accepts the fact of Hindu roots of Yoga. I think that it is even more difficult in countries where the abrahamic influences are still strong like USA or Saudia Arabia.
Philippe
I think the main reason these comments are being made that “Yoga predates Hinduism” or “Hinduism borrowed Yoga” or “Yoga dominated Hinduism” is ignorance about the religion of Hinduism and what it teaches. Not to mention, a feeling of rivalry with Hinduism by people who profess Western faiths, but also really enjoy Yoga. An attempt is being made to appropriate Yoga and diassociate it from Hinduism to appease and pacify these religious sensibilities. After all, no loyal Abrahamic faith adherent wants to admit that the practice they enjoy so much is a formal Hindu practice.
At the same time of course no honest person will be able to deny that Yoga very much is a Hindu invention, philosophy and practice. A single search on the history of Yoga will reveal that Yoga developed in Hindu religion and all classical Yoga texts are Hindu scriptures and all modern exponents of Yoga are Hindu gurus. The only people denying this are people who cannot come to terms with this historical fact.
In the same way, no honest person will be able to deny that Hinduism’s central and core doctrine is Yoga. It is the religion which teaches that one must attain self-realization in life by gaining mastery of the mind through the pracitice of meditation, breath control etc. There is no doubting this, because this is exactly what the scriptures of Hinduism teach(Upanishads, Gita, Yogasutras etc)
After all, no loyal Abrahamic faith adherent wants to admit that the practice they enjoy so much is a formal Hindu practice.
Why do you continually put Judiasm Islam and Christianity together as if they are the same faith? They most certainly are not.
I am a loyal Catholic and I don’t care where yoga asanas came from. If Hinduism created them, then thank you Hinduism.
Christians don’t care if Hindus originated yoga, and wouldn’t mind giving credit. Christians are concerned about practicing a faith that conflicts with their own, and that is a legitimate concern. But not all agree with you that yoga is Hindu. I personally don’t care if it is, but I have heard otherwise. I’m willing to look into whatever sources you have that verify your claim.
I do asanas and don’t practice any form of Hinduism. I don’t believe in reincarcation or karma. I don’t belive God and the material world are one.
Physical postures do not make a religion and do not cause me to believe anything that Hinduism teaches that is contrary to my own faith.
But if Hinduism is truly the source of the part of yoga I have chosen to practice, if yoga can be practiced in-part, then that is not the slightest threat to me or my religion, and I’m happy to give credit where it is due.
And I extend a welcome to any Hindu to explore Catholocism, and consider converting, and I can return the favor.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;39722]I think the main reason these comments are being made that “Yoga predates Hinduism” or “Hinduism borrowed Yoga” or “Yoga dominated Hinduism” is ignorance about the religion of Hinduism and what it teaches. Not to mention, a feeling of rivalry with Hinduism by people who profess Western faiths, but also really enjoy Yoga. An attempt is being made to appropriate Yoga and diassociate it from Hinduism to appease and pacify these religious sensibilities. After all, no loyal Abrahamic faith adherent wants to admit that the practice they enjoy so much is a formal Hindu practice.
At the same time of course no honest person will be able to deny that Yoga very much is a Hindu invention, philosophy and practice. A single search on the history of Yoga will reveal that Yoga developed in Hindu religion and all classical Yoga texts are Hindu scriptures and all modern exponents of Yoga are Hindu gurus. The only people denying this are people who cannot come to terms with this historical fact.
In the same way, no honest person will be able to deny that Hinduism’s central and core doctrine is Yoga. It is the religion which teaches that one must attain self-realization in life by gaining mastery of the mind through the pracitice of meditation, breath control etc. There is no doubting this, because this is exactly what the scriptures of Hinduism teach(Upanishads, Gita, Yogasutras etc)[/QUOTE]
This was not my intention and I apologise if my argument lacked clarity.
What I was (unsuccessfully) trying to relate is that the ‘enlightened state’ of man is man’s natural state.
The goal of Yoga is to bring about such awareness.
As such, it’s more of a spiritual practice than a religious one.
[QUOTE=Nobody;39742]This was not my intention and I apologise if my argument lacked clarity.
What I was (unsuccessfully) trying to relate is that the ‘enlightened state’ of man is man’s natural state.
The goal of Yoga is to bring about such awareness.
As such, it’s more of a spiritual practice than a religious one.[/QUOTE]
I’m intrigued. How does one differentiate between a spiritual experience and a religious one? What’s the difference?
There is a subtle difference.
A religious experience is confined within a certain structural framework, according to the religion.
Whilst there may be no difference between the Christian experience of ‘a State Of Grace’, the Hindu experience of Samadhi, the Zen experience of Satori etc, each will claim their relative experiences as being true and those experienced by other religions as being false, the work of the devil…
Spiritualism transcends all of that and attaches no religious significance to the experience.
What I was (unsuccessfully) trying to relate is that the ‘enlightened state’ of man is man’s natural state.
The goal of Yoga is to bring about such awareness.
As such, it’s more of a spiritual practice than a religious one.
Indeed, Yoga is about bringing the natural state of man. However, this is what Hinduism teaches and therefore maybe in your language it is better to understand Hinduism as a spirituality rather than religion.
It is important not to put all religions in one group and treat them like the same entity. You need to understand the differences between each religion.
A Hindu would not reject a Christians experience of grace, or the Zen experience of Satori, because Hinduism says anybody can experience the natural state.
We already are in a natural state! What is this ‘we need to find our natural state’ rubbish?? We are in a state, brought about by natural causes. What is unnatural, is to sit cross-legged searching for a state… see, this is why I hate the religious forum… too much magic and fantasy.
Sounds like the above has got you in a state!!!
You know you love the religious forum…where else can you find such tolerant cross legged souls…(oops human beings) that attempt to put your Scientific ideas under the hammer as nicely as possible.
You’re wrong wrong wrong…I know because I can go places your Scientists haven’t been. They only made it to the moon!!! How pathetic…and then theres their little space shack, muscles wasting away moving around in it at the pace of a snail, fixing their little shack when it slips up!! Hardly any visitors…And then theres the Big Bang…well big deal thats as far as they have got…
Well then, what do you want me to say that would make you all happy…that only Hindus should be allowed to practice yoga because it’s a Hindu thing? That Hindus have somehow ‘copyrighted’ yoga…
How about this, that if you are a Christian doing certain physical postures and meditating, you cannot possibly be doing yoga because you are not a Hindu?
then it should not matter anyway
Let’s just go from the ludicrous to the absurd here to prove a point. :lol:
[QUOTE=Nobody;39785]Let’s just go from the ludicrous to the absurd here to prove a point. :lol:[/QUOTE]
I’ve tried that already. Didn’t work for me. Maybe it will for you.