Is Yoga Hinduism?

Spirituality Religion
#741

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;45519]Then show me the historical and archaological evidence when Yoga started and the historical and archaeological evidence where Hinduism started.

Wow really? Now correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t the Vedas the beginning of Hinduism? Isn’t Hinduism called the Vedic religion? Are Vedas not regarded the highest scripture of Hinduism and anything which contradicts the Vedas is considered heresy? In which case if Yoga starts in the Vedas and Hinduism starts in the Vedas, then it means both Yoga and Hinduism start in the Vedas and neither one preadates the other.[/quote]

Co-opting Vedic history as Hindu history is kind of like Christians co-opting Jewish history as their own. Yoga has archaeological record back to 3000BCE, the religion of Hinduism is not 5000yrs old. That’s just the way things are. Christians don’t say “We use the Old Testament so Christianity is as old as the Old Testament”, do they? or that Christianity is as old as the scriptures or traditions that were the source of the Old Testament? Just because Hindus use Vedic scriptures, that doesn’t mean that Hinduism is as old.

The idea that Hinduism is different from Yoga is an ignorant view held by people who are ignorant about Hinduism. This includes not just non-Indians, but Indian people as well. They only look at whats on the surface and conclude that is Hinduism. My dear, underlying the bhakti, rituals and temple is Yoga.

I’m not claiming otherwise, Yoga and Vedic philosophy is at the core of the religion of Hinduism, that can’t be disputed. Yoga, however, dated back LITERALLY etched in stone as at least 5000yrs old. The religion of Hinduism is not the same case.

There are three major traditions in Hinduism, correct? Vaishanavism(the majority of Hindus today are Vaishnavas) Shivaism(the majority of Tamil Nadu are Shiavists) and Shaktism(Most Hindus worship Durga/Kali/Amba) These three traditions are mainly bhakti traditions. This means they largely practice temple worship and murti puja. But what scriptures do they follow? The Vaishnavas follow the Gita, the bible of Yoga. The Shiviasts and shaktas follow the agamas and tantras the second highest authorities(regarded as revealed scripture) on yoga after the Gita and Vedas. They believe in exactly the same doctrines that Yoga is constituted of:

  1. Union with the ultimate reality/Brahman
  2. Dharma
  3. Karma and reincarnation
  4. Samkhya cosmology(25 tattvas)

In fact a section of Vaishnavas, Shivaists and Shaktas in addition to bhakti also practice japa meditation. Some also practice dhyana using their saguna brahman.

How then is Yoga different from Hinduism? It is not that Yoga and Hinduism is different. It is you who are ignorant of what Yoga and Hinduism is about.

First, it seems you aren’t hearing what I’m saying, but let me reply to some of your points:

  • considering when Vishnu and Shiva were emerging as popular deities around 500-300BCE, Vaishnavism and Shaivism weren’t developed until around 500BCE, give or take a couple centuries. This is still thousands of years after the first etched-in-stone Yoga artifacts. These “branches” of Hinduism didn’t develop until Yoga had been around for thousands of years. & yes, many people consider the Bhagavad Gita to be “the bible” of Yoga, I don’t. It’s a great text and was important in Hindu development but I don’t personally consider it too important to my Yoga practice as I’m not too interested in worshiping Krishna/Vishnu as a typical Hindu.
#742

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;45515]I can’t be bothered anymore in showing Thomas what his OT says. Thomas clearly ceases to be rational and objective as soon as its own religion is the object of inquiry. He even defended the recent scandal of sex abuse and child molestation in the Church and the covering up by the Vatican and the current pope, that even the most PC brigade on this forum headed by Lotusgirl did not support.

I am going to treat it as a mental shortcoming and move on.[/QUOTE]

  1. I know what the OT says. But the OT is not telling ME or any other Chrisitan to smash any idols or destroy any places of worship.

  2. I never defended the abuse scandal. I said the pope had nothing to do with any coverup and I stand by that. There were certainly a few bad preists, and some bishops who used poor judgement.

I am simply tired of attacks that are based on taking things out of context and based on ignorance and misunderstandings. You don’t know enough about it to make the assertions and claims you do.

You should stick to saying how great Hinduism is, instead of also maligning another faith, especially when it is from the perspective of profound ignorance and bias.

#743

Indra Deva, you appear to be confused and you have massive gaps in your knowledge about the religion Hinduism. Allow me to clear your confusion.

First of all lets begin with the word “Hinduism” This word is a foreign term to refer to the religion of the Indian people. It was first used by the Persians to refer to the people that lived beyond the river Sindhu, and pronounced by them as Hindu. The Greeks pronounced the same word as “Indus” and from which the English word “India” comes. Thus Hinduism basically means the original religion of India. It refers to their way of life, their philosophy, their traditions, their history.

The indigenious term for Hinduism however as used by Indians was “dharma” (Swami Vivekananda more clearly defined this term by adding the adjective “Sanatana” to make Sanatana dharma)

Now Hinduism has a very vast history going back 10,000 years in India(As recorded in Hindu history books and evidenced by archeological evidence) But it starts with the Vedas. Now in this history there are various periods that we will now look at:

[U][B]Vedic period[/B][/U]

In this period lived the Risis who composed the Veda, the Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanishads Upa-vedas and Vedangas. The dialect of language spoken at this time was Vedic Sanskrit. In this period lived King Rama of Ayodhya and this period is called the Treta Yuga. It is during this time we hear about the Risis doing their intense tapasya(later called Yoga) to realise Brahman. Society during this time was more simple, agarian and people were said to be more noble.

Archeaological and historical evidence suggests this was around 9000BCE. India was called Aryavarta at this time or the land of the Aryans.

[B][U]Post-Vedic period[/U][/B]

In this period lived Ved-vyasa who edited the Vedas and puranas. The dialect of language spoken at this time was classical Sanskrit. In this period lived Bharata and during this time the Mahabharata war took place and Krishna lived. This is the urban period of India and the period where the various philosophies arose, such as Yoga, Samkhya, Nyaya.

Archeaological and historical evidence suggest this was around 3000BCE. India was called Bharatavarsha. It is highly likely that Patanjali, Panini, Pingla, Kapila lived during this time(Western history dates them much later in 500BCE+ due to Aryan invasion theory bias) It is during this time we see migrations of Indians around the world. There is extensive martime and merchant activity and trade with various parts of the world.

[B][U]Bhakti period[/U][/B]

In this period develop the various sects. The concept of the Hindu trinity is formulated as Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva. The first of the sects to arise is Vaishavaism and the worship of Krishna. Followed by Sivaism and Shaktaism(Shaktism is the latest one to develop). Later, massive temples are built in order to worship them. It is also during this period many of the puranas are composed and rituals are formulated.

Archeaological and historical evidence suggests the bhakti period starts around 500BCE. However, the massive temples appear during the Gupta period which is much later.

[B][U]Modern period[/U][/B]

In this period develop neo schools of Hinduism in reaction to Western occupation of India and the encroaching of Christianity on India. The first school to develop is the Bramo Samaj which tries to synthesisze Hinduism with Christianity. Taking its cure from the Brahmo Samaj, Swami Dayananda finds the Arya samaj, but instead to challenge Christianity and Western scholarship on the distortions made to Indian history and mistranslations of the Vedas. Also an attempt to redefine Hinduism as the Vedic religion and show its scientific character. Later, more such movements such as the Ramakrishna movement headed by Swami Vivekananda also attempt to redefine Hinduism to make it palpable to the West especially with their universal pluralism. Swami Yogananda of the Kriya Yoga tradition attempts to Hinduize Christianity by forming a sect of Hinduism which appropriates Christianity and redefines it in a Hindu way.

The modern period saw a lot of reforming in Hinduism and social uplifment and change. The Arya samaj rejected idol worship. The Ramakrishna movement rejected caste. This all took place around in the 19th century and the language spoken at the time was predominantly Hindi.

You seem to be only referring to the Bhakti period as Hinduism and that is grossly inaccurate for you to miss out the Vedic period, Post-Vedic period and the Modern period. Hinduism refers to the traditional Vedic religion of India which has a history going back 10,000 years. It does not refer to any particular period.

How did you come to this definition that only the Bhakti period is Hinduism?

#744

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;45529]Indra Deva, you appear to be confused and you have massive gaps in your knowledge about the religion Hinduism. Allow me to clear your confusion.[/QUOTE]

Okay.

#745

First, it seems you aren’t hearing what I’m saying, but let me reply to some of your points:

  • considering when Vishnu and Shiva were emerging as popular deities around 500-300BCE, Vaishnavism and Shaivism weren’t developed until around 500BCE, give or take a couple centuries. This is still thousands of years after the first etched-in-stone Yoga artifacts. These “branches” of Hinduism didn’t develop until Yoga had been around for thousands of years. & yes, many people consider the Bhagavad Gita to be “the bible” of Yoga, I don’t. It’s a great text and was important in Hindu development but I don’t personally consider it too important to my Yoga practice as I’m not too interested in worshiping Krishna/Vishnu as a typical Hindu.

Yes, I know these branches of Hinduism did not develop until Yoga and Vedas has been around for thousands of years. But what is bizarree here is you say these are branches of Hinduism and then insist that Hinduism started there? Ever seen a tree that starts at the branches :wink:

There does not seem to be any logic to your belief that Hinduism started at the Bhakti period. It would be like me saying that Christianity started when Protestantism started, and what was before Prostestanism is something other than Christianity.

Secondly, the Bhakti period is still Yoga. The Bhakti scriptures are still Yogic texts. Yoga Vasistha, Shiva Samhita, Gita, Agamas and tantras. The only thing that gets added to Hinduism during this period is temple worship. Nothing gets subtracted though.

Hinduism begins as a Yogic religion during the Vedic period. Remains a Yogic religion in the Post-Vedic period and the Bhakti period and ends as a Yogic religion in the modern period. Hinduism is the religion of Yoga. Along the way Yoga multiplies into various ways. First there is Vedic Yoga which is called tapasya then, then there is Patanjali’s Raja Yoga, then there is Bhakti Yoga, then there is Hatha Yoga and finally in modern times we have Karma yoga.

The notion that Yoga is not Hinduism are made by people who are ignorant of the history of Yoga. They show nothing other than their bad education by saying such things.

#746

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;45531]Yes, I know these branches of Hinduism did not develop until Yoga and Vedas has been around for thousands of years. But what is bizarree here is you say these are branches of Hinduism and then insist that Hinduism started there? Ever seen a tree that starts at the branches :wink:
[/quote]

I don’t know, you’re the one that brought them up.

There does not seem to be any logic to your belief that Hinduism started at the Bhakti period. It would be like me saying that Christianity started when Protestantism started, and what was before Prostestanism is something other than Christianity.

No, what was before Protestantism was NOT Protestantism. C’mon now, that’s a silly analogy.

Secondly, the Bhakti period is still Yoga. The Bhakti scriptures are still Yogic texts. Yoga Vasistha, Shiva Samhita, Gita, Agamas and tantras. The only thing that gets added to Hinduism during this period is temple worship. Nothing gets subtracted though.

Hinduism begins as a Yogic religion during the Vedic period. Remains a Yogic religion in the Post-Vedic period and the Bhakti period and ends as a Yogic religion in the modern period. Hinduism is the religion of Yoga. Along the way Yoga multiplies into various ways. First there is Vedic Yoga which is called tapasya then, then there is Patanjali’s Raja Yoga, then there is Bhakti Yoga, then there is Hatha Yoga and finally in modern times we have Karma yoga.

The notion that Yoga is not Hinduism are made by people who are ignorant of the history of Yoga. They show nothing other than their bad education by saying such things.

Okay.

#747

Ok :wink:

No, what was before Protestantism was NOT Protestantism. C’mon now, that’s a silly analogy.

Nothing silly about it. You said that Yoga and Vedas existed before Hinduism and then referred the Bhakti phase around 500BCE as the beginning of Hinduism. This is just like suggesting that Christianity started when Protestantism started and what existed before Protestantism was something other than Christianity.

Anyway now that I have made you aware of the wider history of Hindusim you should be able to appreciate how Yoga is not older than Hinduism, but rather Hinduism has always been the religion of Yoga.

#748

I knew you would cite the Indus Valley seals to prove your point. First of all, it is hotly debated whether those postures even reflect a primitive form of yoga and whether the IVC practiced an early form of Hinduism. Indian scholars will say it is evidence that yoga and Hinduism (early forms of them) were practiced alongside (not that Yoga predated Hinduism) one another. Western scholars will laugh at those Indians and go along thinking that they know our country better by denying this.

You’re really a fool Indra Deva. Yoga is a PART of Hinduism. Its a PART of the teachings that arose well after the creation of the Vedas (whenever that might have been; hard to pinpoint an exact date to oral teachings). The Vedas reflect the founding of Hinduism (as we know it today). I love how you assert that Yoga has its roots in the Upanishadic and Vedic teachings but at the same time, imply that it is older than them. Where are you getting your info? westernizedyogawithchristianbias.com?

I suggest you change your name to something else, anti-Hindu Westerner. It is clear you are another one of those people who have this allergic reaction to Hinduism and are attempting to disassociate Yoga from it in order to make yourself feel better about practicing something from a “pagan” religion.

#749

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;45535]Ok :wink:

Nothing silly about it. You said that Yoga and Vedas existed before Hinduism and then referred the Bhakti phase around 500BCE as the beginning of Hinduism. This is just like suggesting that Christianity started when Protestantism started and what existed before Protestantism was something other than Christianity.

Anyway now that I have made you aware of the wider history of Hindusim you should be able to appreciate how Yoga is not older than Hinduism, but rather Hinduism has always been the religion of Yoga.[/QUOTE]

They won’t listen Surya. These Christian biased Westerners dislike Hinduism and nothing would please them more than to degrade Hinduism and make it seem like a sub-practice that emanated from the superior practice of Yoga. I love how these bigots are deciding and teaching us our own history.

#750

:roll:

Everybody’s out to get the Hindus, huh?

If you want me to give Hindus credit because I can do an awesome yoga headstand, then I would be happy to do so. I will thank the first Hindu I see.

I think maybe what you guys perceive to be pervasive anti-Hinduism, are simply reactions to your many anti-every-other-belief comments.

I’m perfectly fine with Hindus and Hinduism, though I know of a couple of Hindus who have no problem insulting and distorting other faiths. Hopefully they are the exception and not the rule.

#751

Everybody’s out to get the Hindus, huh?

If you want me to give Hindus credit because I can do an awesome yoga headstand, then I would be happy to do so. I will thank the first Hindu I see.

I think maybe what you guys perceive to be pervasive anti-Hinduism, are simply reactions to your many anti-every-other-belief comments.

I’m perfectly fine with Hindus and Hinduism, though I know of a couple of Hindus who have no problem insulting and distorting other faiths. Hopefully they are the exception and not the rule.[/QUOTE]

Well, it certainly seems that way as most everyone who’s “out to get the Hindus” are ones in power or ones in control of the media.

No, that is not what I mean. I would merely like you to recognize its source and not go around spreading lies such as “Hinduism came from Yoga,” implying that real yoga is yoga stripped from its Indian roots, and continuing to spread propaganda about the inferiority of Hinduism.

#752

I don’t know where yoga came from.

I’m inclinded to believe you and SD that it came from Hinduism or is part of Hinduism. There is no reason for me to not want to believe that.

But isn’t it possible that those who have other beliefs about the origin are simply stating what they believe in good faith, with no bad intentions, and no desire to deny anything to Hinduism?

#753

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;45551]Well, it certainly seems that way as most everyone who’s “out to get the Hindus” are ones in power or ones in control of the media.

No, that is not what I mean. I would merely like you to recognize its source and not go around spreading lies such as “Hinduism came from Yoga,” implying that real yoga is yoga stripped from its Indian roots, and continuing to spread propaganda about the inferiority of Hinduism.[/QUOTE]

“Hindu Haters: the New Antisemitism!”

Oh man, this is kinda pathetic. :rolleyes:

#754

Kinda?

I already schooled these guys numerous times in the first couple pages of this exercise in futility. The thread continues because somebody comes in and reads their dribbles and thinks that they can have an enlightening debate or some fun with these guys. The opposition soon discovers that this isn’t fun and games were playing here - this is war.

Logic? Perspective? Good Sense? Fair Play?

yeah right! Not from these guys.

#755

[QUOTE=The Scales;45561]Kinda?

I already schooled these guys numerous times in the first couple pages of this exercise in futility. The thread continues because somebody comes in and reads their dribbles and thinks that they can have an enlightening debate or some fun with these guys. The opposition soon discovers that this isn’t fun and games were playing here - this is war.

Logic? Perspective? Good Sense? Fair Play?

yeah right! Not from these guys.[/QUOTE]

I forgot that this was a “religious” forum. Obviously religious zealotry and revisionist history is just as rampant in Hinduism as any other religion.

Though I did find this website, it was very enlightening:
http://nirmukta.com/
& this is an interesting point of view:
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2010/05/are-yogis-hindus-and-how-old-is-hinduism-anyway/

#756

Its not a “new” version of Antisemitism. Hatred against Hindus has always been there.

You will only win a debate against us in your mind Scales.

The 2nd link, Indra, is absolute trash. It is like saying there was no “God” until the English language came around and people speaking it coined the word. I am not surprised that a white man wrote the article. It also doesn’t surprise me that you, a Westerner with Christian biases, is subscribing to it. I really don’t know what you are trying to prove; if you’re implying that Yoga predated “Hinduism” (the only reason I’m typing this word is because the alternative is longer), this is the most pathetic attempt I have ever seen in my life.

#757

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;45568]Its not a “new” version of Antisemitism. Hatred against Hindus has always been there.

You will only win a debate against us in your mind Scales.

The 2nd link, Indra, is absolute trash. It is like saying there was no “God” until the English language came around and people speaking it coined the word. I am not surprised that a white man wrote the article. It also doesn’t surprise me that you, a Westerner with Christian biases, is subscribing to it. I really don’t know what you are trying to prove; if you’re implying that Yoga predated “Hinduism” (the only reason I’m typing this word is because the alternative is longer), this is the most pathetic attempt I have ever seen in my life.[/QUOTE]

Everyone is allowed an opinion, even “Hindus”. :smiley:

#758

[QUOTE=thomas;45553]I don’t know where yoga came from.

I’m inclinded to believe you and SD that it came from Hinduism or is part of Hinduism. There is no reason for me to not want to believe that.

But isn’t it possible that those who have other beliefs about the origin are simply stating what they believe in good faith, with no bad intentions, and no desire to deny anything to Hinduism?[/QUOTE]

Is that so? Do you not pay attention to the crap evidence people constantly provide to support their viewpoints? Do you really call that “[believing] in good faith, with no bad intentions, and no desire to deny anything to Hinduism” ? And even if others have an innocent belief in the origins of yoga, it is unacceptable; it shows that they are relying on Western propaganda and media to form their opinions and that they are too stupid to realize otherwise.

You tell any historian that Yoga predated Hinduism, even unbiased ones, they will laugh their :smiley: off.

#759

[QUOTE=Indra Deva;45569]Everyone is allowed an opinion, even “Hindus”. :D[/QUOTE]

And everyone is allowed to criticize it; especially us, when the subject matter deals with our people, practices, etc. :smiley:

By the way, God and Jesus never existed and is a concept about a bit about millennium old since the English language was (as we know it) developed no later than that time.

I should go around and tell Christians this. Thomas! Ohh Thomas!!! I’ve got something to tell you!

#760

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;45571]Is that so? Do you not pay attention to the crap evidence people constantly provide to support their viewpoints? Do you really call that “[believing] in good faith, with no bad intentions, and no desire to deny anything to Hinduism” ? And even if others have an innocent belief in the origins of yoga, it is unacceptable; it shows that they are relying on Western propaganda and media to form their opinions and that they are too stupid to realize otherwise.

You tell any historian that Yoga predated Hinduism, even unbiased ones, they will laugh their :smiley: off.[/QUOTE]

You and SD accuse Christianity of so many ridiculous things and believe and express so many half-truths, distortions, and outright lies, that I wouldn’t know where to begin.

Yet, I have to presume you’re doing it in ignorance and not with malicious intent, though there would come a point where you could be willfully ignorant.

I don’t think those who share their beliefs about yoga and when/how it started are being malicious.

I don’t see why anyone would have an axe to grind against Hindus or Indians, anyway. Why would it bother me, an evil Westerner, that Hinduism spawned or is the same as yoga?