You fail to extrapolate Sikhism, Sufism, etc. and their contribution to what we know call “yoga”.
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;50184]@Sd,
I knew you loved me, even though I’m a new ager! lol! Don’t agree with your summarization of this thread though. Sorry, my friend. Why, I hear you ask?
Sorry Nietzsche, not really. (with SD anyway) His contention has been if you practice yoga you are Hindu, adding that we may not know it. He has stated this time and time again. He has said there is no Yoga without Hinduism nor Hinduism without Yoga. Also stated Yoga originated in Hinduism, yoga is Hinduism. I think the only thing that most agree upon is that yoga is a formal Hindu practice. (that is minus you, high wolf, Phillippe, SD and anyone else I forgot) Now SD, you cannot argue with what I just posted because it is what you’ve been saying throughout this entire thread. Right?
What many others have said, including myself, Suhas Tambe, lostontheway, is that the formal practice of Hinduism came after yoga was described in the Veda’s. At the time the Veda’s were written, there was no mention of Hinduism. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY WHAT WE’VE SAID IS WE HONOR THE HINDU “PRACTICE” OF YOGA. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT HINDU’S OWN YOGA. IT MEANS THAT THEY WERE INSIGHTFUL ENOUGH TO KNOW A GOOD THING WHEN THEY SEE IT, AND TO THEN REFINE IT AND INCORPORATE IT INTO THEIR RELIGION. FOR THAT I AM ETERNALLY GRATEFUL. HINDUISM IS THE VEHICLE THAT BROUGHT YOGA TO US. US MEANING THE REST OF THE WORLD. BY NO MEANS AM I (AND PROBABLY MANY ON THIS FORUM) DIMINISHING OR DEMEANING HINDUISM IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. AS A YOGA TEACHER, I HAVE THE UTMOST RESPECT FOR HINDUISM AND THE GIFTS THEY HAVE SHARED WITH THE WORLD. MY STUDENTS SHARE THIS SAME SENTIMENT ALONG WITH RESPECT FOR BUDDHISM, CHRISTIANITY, ETC.
Now, you may agree or disagree with the entirety of the above. If you disagree and have your reasons, it’s OK by me. I’m not going to try to convince anyone to see my way. But my way is how I see it. I do not lie, but if you view me a liar because of how I interpret history that is yours to deal with. But, we can agree that Yoga is a Hindu practice, right? Can’t think of many that would argue that point. And at this point, it is probably the only thing we will all agree on! lol
And now, that’s all I have to share. I could share the flu that I’ve had for the last couple days, but I don’t think you want me to be that generous.[/QUOTE]
You are right. You see, the word “God” or “Jesus” or “Christian” wasn’t mentioned in the Torah because the English language didn’t exist back then. Therefore, Christianity created Judaism as it is today.
That is basically what you are sounding like by saying the word “Hinduism” didn’t exist in the Vedas. Of course it didn’t silly! Thats because we had [B]our own name for it.[/B] And only when we were taught English did we adopt the name Hinduism because, lets face it, Sanatana Dharma is a bit of a long word and Hinduism is more convenient to say.
You are seriously reminding me of a friend who once asked me “Are you Hindi?”
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;50205]So, my school girl charm isn’t getting me anywhere with this then? lol
Christians practice Christianity, so it is likely Hindu’s “practice” Hinduism. Correct? I do know Hinduism is a religion!
But Hinduism as a formal religion that was practiced came after the Veda’s were written. Again, correct? [B]I am not a Vedic scholar by any stretch of the imagination[/B], but I don’t recall ever hearing Hinduism mentioned until much later in history. Do you have a date that Hinduism as a religion was born?
And yes, you are correct, I mean nothing bad. Just like many on this forum mean nothing bad when they question or disagree with what is said. Nature of the beast I guess![/QUOTE]
And there, this “debate” ends.
[QUOTE=Nietzsche;50232]And there, this “debate” ends.[/QUOTE]
And why is that?
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;50236]And why is that?[/QUOTE]
[B]I am not a Vedic scholar by any stretch of the imagination,[/B]
Do you REALLY want to debate the meaning of this?
Besides, it is clear you have no idea of what you are saying by basically stating “Yoga came after Hinduism because the word ‘Hinduism’ didn’t exist until well after Yoga.” :lol:
So Christianity didn’t exist because the English word for it didn’t come around until much later on. Neither did “God” or Abraham or “Muhammed”… Amidoinitrite?
[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;36803]Vedic period to which Yoga and Hinduism owe their origin, was a long stretch in history and quite distant from us today. Any investigative work we do today would naturally lead to fuzzy conclusions. Especially when the minds of the investgators are filled with anger about Yoga being called Hindu or not being so called is bound to leave some holes in their evidence born out of selective perception for the opponents to pounce on.
Some basic facts remain mostly accepted like Yoga came first and Hinduism followed. (Patanjali's Yoga-Sutras do not mention Hinduism, yet there are many references to Yoga in the Hindu scriptures). As humanity progressed many great minds embraced and re-interpreted Yoga, a process that has been a hallmark of this universal philosophy. So, Hinduism remains a sibling of Yoga and both have very close idiom that must have historically influenced each other. There should be no problem in appreciating this.
This is what resonates with me Nietzsche and SD. I like Suhas’s term siblings.
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;50238]
[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;36803]Vedic period to which Yoga and Hinduism owe their origin, was a long stretch in history and quite distant from us today. Any investigative work we do today would naturally lead to fuzzy conclusions. Especially when the minds of the investgators are filled with anger about Yoga being called Hindu or not being so called is bound to leave some holes in their evidence born out of selective perception for the opponents to pounce on.
Some basic facts remain mostly accepted like Yoga came first and Hinduism followed. (Patanjali's Yoga-Sutras do not mention Hinduism, yet there are many references to Yoga in the Hindu scriptures). As humanity progressed many great minds embraced and re-interpreted Yoga, a process that has been a hallmark of this universal philosophy. So, Hinduism remains a sibling of Yoga and both have very close idiom that must have historically influenced each other. There should be no problem in appreciating this.
This is what resonates with me Nietzsche and SD. I like Suhas’s term siblings.[/QUOTE]
LOL! Now go tell this to an unbiased historian. I will be waiting.
Sometimes, I truly wonder whether our forefathers did the right thing by teaching these mlecchas our traditions. I am also beginning to see the wisdom of restricting the teaching of our scriptures to those who are knowledgeable or worthy enough.
By the way, I don’t get this idea that I bashed Thomas. I meant to say “you all” and not “you.” I make that mistake a lot when my thinking simultaneously interferes with my perception of who I am talking to and to whom I am referencing.
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;50184]Blah blah blah…
What many others have said, including myself, Suhas Tambe, lostontheway, is that the formal practice of Hinduism came after yoga was described in the Veda’s. At the time the Veda’s were written, there was no mention of Hinduism. [B]THIS MEANS THAT BECAUSE THE ENGLISH/PERSIAN/BRITISH TERM FOR THE RELIGION OF THE HINDUS CAME AROUND MUCH LATER THAN THE WORD ‘YOGA,’ YOGA PREDATES WHATEVER INDIANS CALLED THEIR OWN RELIGION. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY WHAT WE’VE SAID IS WE DO NOT HONOR THE HINDU “PRACTICE” OF YOGA. THIS MEANS THAT HINDUS DO NOT OWN YOGA. IT MEANS THAT THEY WERE NOT INSIGHTFUL ENOUGH TO KNOW A GOOD THING WHEN THEY SEE IT, AND THAT WESTERNERS KNOW INDIAN HISTORY HISTORY BETTER THAN INDIANS AND HINDUS! HINDUISM IS THE NOT VEHICLE THAT BROUGHT YOGA TO US. RATHER IT WAS THE CHRISTIAN EUROCENTRISTS, WHO SCREWED UP INDIAN HISTORY TO THE POINT WHERE WESTERNERS WHO KNOW NOT AN OUNCE OF INDIAN HISTORY START QUESTIONING IT. BY ALL MEANS I AM (AND PROBABLY MANY ON THIS FORUM) DIMINISHING OR DEMEANING HINDUISM IN EVERY WAY SHAPE OR FORM BECAUSE I AM A WHITE PERSON AND HAVE NO EFFING CLUE HOW MOST INDIANS WITHOUT WESTERN BIASES WOULD REACT TO MY STATEMENTS ON THE CHRONOLOGY OF HINDUISM AND YOGA. AS A WHITE YOGA TEACHER, I HAVE THE UTMOST RESPECT FOR CHRISTIANITY, THE MOST DESTRUCTIVE AND ILLOGICAL RELIGION IN THE WORLD AND WESTERN BIGOTS AND THE GIFTS OF CULTURAL SUBVERSION THEY HAVE SHARED WITH THE WORLD. MY STUDENTS SHARE THIS SAME SENTIMENT AND THEY ALSO RESPECT ISLAM, CHRISTIANITY, ETC. THEY ALSO RESPECT BUDDHISM BECAUSE BUDDHISM DOES NOT HAVE THE IDOLATRY, PAGANISM, AND INTRA-RACIAL SUBVERSION LIKE HINDUISM AND BECAUSE THE ASIANS MADE IT MUCH BETTER BY DE-INDIANIZING IT.[/B] [/QUOTE]
I revised your post to reflect your true views. You can thank me later.
You know N, I certainly hope you are kidding with this above post. If not, you should be sent to your room without dinner!
Please refrain from mocking and changing my words like the above. Very juvenile. I hope you enjoyed yourself. By posting like that you don’t do justice to Hinduism at all. And I must ask, why would you reword my post like that?
And where did you get the Thomas bashing thing anyway? I made no mention of Thomas.
Quote:
I am not a Vedic scholar by any stretch of the imagination,
Do you REALLY want to debate the meaning of this?
Again, Nietzsche, do you think this was a necessary comment to make? Must we all be Vedic scholars to engage in this discussion. Are you the judge and jury here? You need to learn a bit of respect.
[QUOTE=kareng;50178]Just copied Billy bashing Thomas, it is funny…lol…I just love it…is that a Violin in his hands…[/QUOTE]
I’m believe it was a very nice chromed axe
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;50196]
To say Hinduism came after the Vedas is like saying Judaism came after the OT and Christianity came after the NT.
[/QUOTE]
Or that the automobile came after the wheel…
Western religions didn’t exist in any form that we know them today before they had written scriptures to disseminate. & no one has any ridiculous romantic notions that folks were walking around just singing the scriptures from memory…
[QUOTE=Nietzsche;50237]Amidoinitrite?[/QUOTE]
Ironically, YES :lol:
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;50199]All news agers are closet Hindus 
Just look the common beliefs of new-agers and compare and contrast with Hinduism. It is a near perfect match.[/QUOTE]
This is so sweet SD x
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;50247]You know N, I certainly hope you are kidding with this above post. If not, you should be sent to your room without dinner!
Please refrain from mocking and changing my words like the above. Very juvenile. I hope you enjoyed yourself. By posting like that you don’t do justice to Hinduism at all. And I must ask, why would you reword my post like that?
And where did you get the Thomas bashing thing anyway? I made no mention of Thomas.
Again, Nietzsche, do you think this was a necessary comment to make? Must we all be Vedic scholars to engage in this discussion. Are you the judge and jury here? You need to learn a bit of respect.[/QUOTE]
No I am not kidding. “Yoga predates Hinduism because the word ‘Hinduism’ came after Yoga” (paraphrased) is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard in my entire life. I have only heard missionaries and Eurocentrists use this argument before. The way y’all are still refusing to let go of this belief is a testament to the level at which you and the others are steeped in Westernized dogma.
I didn’t intend to do justice to Hinduism. I intended to point out your constant hypocrisy and willful ignorance. The fact is that you denounce Hinduism left and right while justifying everything from the Crusades to Quranic verses sanctioning the slaying of infidels.
No that wasn’t directed at you. It was directed at ID and Kareng who were implying that I somehow offended Thomas. They keep saying “Look Thomas, Neeschee/Billy bashing.” I don’t know what for…
No, but I sure as hell expect you, or anyone else, to know basic history before you say something puerile like “Yoga predated Hinduism.” The fact that you all continue to do so proves you have learned nothing from Yoga or our teachings (and most likely never will). You, and your sheep, don’t do justice to it at all.
But do not despair. There is a solution to all of this. You can redeem yourself by converting to Scientianity. Worship our Lord God Newton and you shall be saved and experience an insta-catharsis every time you do! It feels great!
[QUOTE=kareng;50253]This is so sweet SD x[/QUOTE]
This is the catch. It’s practically impossible to be involved with any religion or spiritual practice that doesn’t fall under the “Hindu” umbrella, that doesn’t strongly resemble something that the Hindus have assimilated into their ridiculously massive net of beliefs. Deism, Theism, Agnosticism, Atheism, Animism, Shamanism, practically all forms of worship of countless different deities or higher powers, any conceivable spiritual practice, it’s all in there.
You describe your beliefs to any of these “Vedic Scholars” and they’re going to say “Oh, that obviously had it’s roots in the most ancient Indian practices.” BlahBlahBlah :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Nietzsche;50260]…No that wasn’t directed at you. [B]It was directed at ID[/B] and Kareng who were implying that I somehow offended Thomas. They keep saying “Look Thomas, Neeschee/Billy bashing.” I don’t know what for…
[/QUOTE]
I have no idea what you’re talking about. Quit projecting your crap onto everyone else, kid.
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;50247]You know N, I certainly hope you are kidding with this above post. If not, you should be sent to your room without dinner!
Please refrain from mocking and changing my words like the above. Very juvenile. I hope you enjoyed yourself. By posting like that you don’t do justice to Hinduism at all. And I must ask, why would you reword my post like that?
And where did you get the Thomas bashing thing anyway? I made no mention of Thomas.
Again, Nietzsche, do you think this was a necessary comment to make? Must we all be Vedic scholars to engage in this discussion. Are you the judge and jury here? You need to learn a bit of respect.[/QUOTE]
He’s a arrogant rich kid with Google. Nothing more. Pay him no mind.
& any Mod worth their salt would have banned a little prick like that long ago
If you notice, these kids rarely step outside of the Religion forum & try to spread their particular brand of Global Hindutva arrogance as they have NO EXPERIENCE WITH YOGA OR MEDITATION. & being the kids they are, they have practically no real life experience, just “religious” superiority.
“We’re Hindu Brown & Proud (the fact that we have practically no real connection to India or typical Indian life doesn’t matter) and Yoga came from India and you’re white so you should just go away.”
Billy, I was only responding to the post clip that was sent by Indra Deva…it was very funny…have you upset Thomas, I didn’t know?
And Nietzsche you should intend to do justice to Hinduism. Hinduism is too great a religion for you to go around calling people ignorant for sharing what they know. Most of the Hindu’s I know share the same opinion as me. And if they didn’t, they certainly would never be as disrespectful as you have been. That is where I got my information. First from my teacher Mr. Lakhia who was born and raised in India and is Hindu (Yoga teacher training) and other friends (who just happen to be Hindu)
There is really no reason for you to get all bent out of shape about this. I mean really!
You know there is absolutely no basis for you saying what you did to me. I never once came across disrespectful or hypocritical.
And BTW, dear, I am not Christian. And I have likely been practicing yoga longer than you have been here during this lifetime.
And now my discussion with you is over. I wish you nothing but love and happiness in your journey.
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;50205]So, my school girl charm isn’t getting me anywhere with this then? lol
Christians practice Christianity, so it is likely Hindu’s “practice” Hinduism. Correct? I do know Hinduism is a religion!
But Hinduism as a formal religion that was practiced came after the Veda’s were written. Again, correct? I am not a Vedic scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but I don’t recall ever hearing Hinduism mentioned until much later in history. Do you have a date that Hinduism as a religion was born?
And yes, you are correct, I mean nothing bad. Just like many on this forum mean nothing bad when they question or disagree with what is said. Nature of the beast I guess![/QUOTE]
Hinduism is a way of life. Defining Hinduism as a religion is a loose way of putting it. There is no one formal text which defines the Hindu religion. The vedas, the Bhagwad Geeta , the Tantras are the closest you can get. And I dont think anyone claims that any one of these is a central or “defining” text. For other religions we have clearly defined texts like Bible, Koran, Talmud etc.
Hinduism today encompasses people who follow the vedas, even among these those who follow dualistic and non dualistic threads, tantras, people who go by the Geeta and even people who just go to temples or worship at home. It is a very broad defintion and can be taken to mean those who accept the authority of any one of these texts.
Thus there is no question of Hinduism coming into existence at any stage after the vedas were written. It was simultaneous. Also the vedas are several and the actual coming into existence of many of them may span across several hundred years.