Is Yoga Hinduism?

Spirituality Religion
#1001

[QUOTE=thomas;51125]I believe that to be able to pull out of thoughts and not be lost in the world of thinking and imagination is something to be striven for, and that it could possibly give the feeling of being one with the “universal mind,” but I don’t believe that it is a merging but a connection. We are distinct minds/souls from our Creator, and are not the Creator.[/QUOTE]

This is a respectable view. Many Hindus agree with you, that we are distinct from the creator/super soul. Even I am closer to you on that one. This is why Yoga means connect and not merge.

#1002

This is the first thread in the Yoga forum’s history to go past the 1000 mark! Wow, what a discussion :smiley:

#1003

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51154]This is a respectable view. Many Hindus agree with you, that we are distinct from the creator/super soul. Even I am closer to you on that one. This is why Yoga means connect and not merge.[/QUOTE]

Literally yes- Yuk is union which can be interpreted as connect. But pure Hinduism is Vedantic. Non duality. In the non dual situation there can be only one entity.

Our earthly existence has duality in the sense that we tend to perceive the body as the self. I cannot explain it better than in the words of the masters-

“Amazing! I am pure, flawless, I am peace, I am awareness, I am
beyond nature. Alas, I have been fooled by illusion all this time!
Just as I all one illumine this body, do I illumine the universe too. Either this whole universe is mine, or nothing at all.
Amazing! Having renounced the body and the world, now through the skill of your teaching I see only the divine.
Just as waves, foam and bubbles are not other than water, so this individual soul is not other than the universal soul.
Just as cloth when analyzed is nothing but thread, this universe when analyzed is nothing but the soul.
Just as sugar produced from sugarcane juice is wholly pervaded by it, the universe produced from me is permeated by me through and through.
From the ignorance of the soul this world then appears; from knowing the soul it does not appear. From the ignorance of the rope a snake appears; from knowing the rope it does not appear.”

#1004

But pure Hinduism is Vedantic. Non duality. In the non dual situation there can be only one entity.

This is of course debatable. There are three different major interpretations in Hinduism: Advaita, Viseshadvaita and Dvaita. So to say Advaita is the only true and pure one is controversial. Although I am inclined towards Advaita, there are some major philosophical problems with it.

If I am god, then how did I forget I was god? If forgetfulness can affect god, then god cannot be perfect.

If I am god under amnesia, then who is the one maintaining the universe?

If I am god, then who is everybody else?

If I am god, then why is it that when I get liberated and remember I am god, everybody else does not get liberated?

#1005

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51162]This is of course debatable. There are three different major interpretations in Hinduism: Advaita, Viseshadvaita and Dvaita. So to say Advaita is the only true and pure one is controversial. Although I am inclined towards Advaita, there are some major philosophical problems with it.

If I am god, then how did I forget I was god? If forgetfulness can affect god, then god cannot be perfect.

If I am god under amnesia, then who is the one maintaining the universe?

If I am god, then who is everybody else?

If I am god, then why is it that when I get liberated and remember I am god, everybody else does not get liberated?[/QUOTE]

It is easier to relate it to the example of the air inside ten different bottles with the air outside. When the bottle breaks there is no distinction left between the air inside and outside.

#1006

I am familiar with that analogy. But I am not sure that analogy proves that “I am god” It may also prove that I and god are of the same essence, but I am still distinct.

In that analogy there are ten different bottles. If one bottle breaks it will realise there is no distiction between the air inside and outside and thus realise it is the totality. But what about the 9 bottles that have not broken? They are still yet to realise the totality.

Applying the analogy to our discussion on the relationship between self and god. If one person becomes liberated and realises “I am god” then who are the other people who have not yet become liberated? Here for god to realise he is god only one person needs to get liberation. But this is not true, for one person can get liberated and others remain in bondage.

The only way to explain this is to posit that there are souls that are distinct from god but of the same essence. They are one with god as opposed to being identical to god. This would answer all the questions I posed above:

  1. It is not god that forgets he is god, it is the souls that fall from god
  2. As god has not fallen, god continues to maintain the universe while the souls participate in god’s universe
  3. Everybody is a distinct soul that participate in god
  4. When one soul gets liberated, the others do not get liberated because they are not the same unit as that soul.
#1007

the word hinduism denotes a slave given by muslim rulers in india. In vedas there is no single word which reads as hinduism or expains it but there is word Arya and there is knowledge about science, spirituality, agriculture, medicines and rituals. the hinduism developed much later represented by puranas and their stories which are mostly fake. yoga has its origin in vedas and its practicies found in many religions such as budhism, jannism, hinduism ect.

#1008

Hi
surya deva ji
there is lot of historical evidence of arya or aryans as in ramayana or mahabharta but no evidence for hinduism over there. origin of hinduism is after mahabharta period so huindism is not the sanatan dhrma. it is down fall of knowledge of vedas in which vedas knowlege is misinterpreted and misused by uneducated pandits of that period.pleople just dont know the real facts.

#1009

[QUOTE=reaswaran;51127]Thomas, you have a right to your views. And no one is trying to convert you to the Hindu view point.

However, again these are my view points and I wont dispute anyone’s right to their views.

(a) If there is a creator, and he presumably decides all happennings in this world, then why would he be perverse enough to want his creations to suffer all the time- war, hunger, rape, murder etc… Surely an exercise of will would be sufficient to remove all evil from the thought processes of mankind ?
(b) How does one explain the creator bringing into being a baby and then takin its life in a few weeks (infant mortalities)
© and if the creator decides birth , death and all wordly events, he can surely make all of mankind benevolent and honest and save himself the trouble of creating hell.
(d) and again if he decides all happennings, what is the purpose of creation ?[/QUOTE]

You make some false presumptions. You don’t allow for a creator endowing humans with a free will.

You presume a God who permits evil would be “perverse,” but are not seeing it from the perspective of a God who sees the eternal soul of the person doing the suffering. Besides, if you or another yogi have attained oneness with the godhead, why aren’t you ending the suffering?

I don’t presume to know the mind of God, or to understand how an infinite mind thinks, when mine is puny and finite, though my common sense tells me an infinite God does not have the “trouble” of creating anything, and it would be entirely effortless.

I think God has given human beings the gift of free will–to be able to choose to love and serve Him, and live happily ever after, or to be able to reject and spurn Him, and live in the eternal Hell which they prefer.

#1010

[QUOTE=Recardo;51188]the word hinduism denotes a slave given by muslim rulers in india. In vedas there is no single word which reads as hinduism or expains it but there is word Arya and there is knowledge about science, spirituality, agriculture, medicines and rituals. the hinduism developed much later represented by puranas and their stories which are mostly fake. yoga has its origin in vedas and its practicies found in many religions such as budhism, jannism, hinduism ect.[/QUOTE]

OH MY GOD! If I hear this retarded argument one more time, I will lose all hope for the Western world.

Just because the freaking word was coined by someone else, doesn’t mean the religion itself was invented at that time silly. And just because that word is used today, doesn’t mean that we didn’t have our own words for it.

What you fail to understand is “Hinduism”/Santana Dharma is like a culture, something you can put any name to based on your circumstances or cultural contexts. In India, it was simply known as different “dharmas.”

Do you actually know Indian history? The entomology of the word “Hinduism” is completely different from what you said it is. At this point, I know you have no idea what you are talking about and should simply be dismissed as another Westerner clinging onto Eurocentric interpretations of our history.

#1011

[QUOTE=thomas;51236]I think God has given human beings the gift of free will–to be able to choose to love and serve Him, and live happily ever after, or to be able to reject and spurn Him, and live in the eternal Hell which they prefer.[/QUOTE]

What would be the purpose of such a creation ?

#1012

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;51237]OH MY GOD! If I hear this retarded argument one more time, I will lose all hope for the Western world.

Just because the freaking word was coined by someone else, doesn’t mean the religion itself was invented at that time silly. And just because that word is used today, doesn’t mean that we didn’t have our own words for it.

What you fail to understand is “Hinduism”/Santana Dharma is like a culture, something you can put any name to based on your circumstances or cultural contexts. In India, it was simply known as different “dharmas.”

Do you actually know Indian history? The entomology of the word “Hinduism” is completely different from what you said it is. At this point, I know you have no idea what you are talking about and should simply be dismissed as another Westerner clinging onto Eurocentric interpretations of our history.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely , N. Lord forgive them for they know not what they (say).

#1013

[QUOTE=Recardo;51194]Hi
surya deva ji
there is lot of historical evidence of arya or aryans as in ramayana or mahabharta but no evidence for hinduism over there. origin of hinduism is after mahabharta period so huindism is not the sanatan dhrma. it is down fall of knowledge of vedas in which vedas knowlege is misinterpreted and misused by uneducated pandits of that period.pleople just dont know the real facts.[/QUOTE]

You don’t know what you’re saying and you’re embarrasing yourself.

Again, go over to the thread I have started “Hinduism/Vedic religion/Sanatana dharma” and learn something about Hinduism. You have no excuse to be saying such ignorant things about Hinduism, when you have already been linked to the information to educate yourself.

In brief: What we know is Hinduism is 10,000 year old religion with its roots in the Indus valley civilisation beginning 7000BCE. It’s history is divided into the following stages: Vedic period, classical period, post-classical period and medival and modern period. It is a dynamic religion which has grown into an enormous and complex religious system over 10,000 years. Its roots are the Vedas. There is no pre-vedic Hinduism. This is why it is also called the Vedic religion.

#1014

[QUOTE=Recardo;51194]Hi
surya deva ji
there is lot of historical evidence of arya or aryans as in ramayana or mahabharta but no evidence for hinduism over there. origin of hinduism is after mahabharta period so huindism is not the sanatan dhrma. it is down fall of knowledge of vedas in which vedas knowlege is misinterpreted and misused by uneducated pandits of that period.pleople just dont know the real facts.[/QUOTE]

What are you TALKING about? There is no such race called the “Aryans.” It is simply a term meaning “noble.” Stop thinking about the AIT especially since it has long been debunked and discredited.

Yes, it is clear that you are basing your knowledge of “Hinduism” on Eurocentric interpretations of our history. Just because the kind of “Hinduism” prevalent today emerged during that time period, that does not mean the “true” origin of Hinduism was at that time. It is simply the pre-eminence of one particular interpretation of Hinduism, particularly Bhakti. Just because ignorant Westerners who know naught of our culture and traditions start labeling things randomly, that doesn’t mean you override what we Indians/Hindus have to say on the matter.

For example, take the Shang and the “mythical” Xia dynasty. The Chinese consistently maintained that the Shang dynasty existed and look what happened; it was found. And although the Xia has yet to be, I wouldn’t bat an eyelash if it is discovered.

The information on “Hinduism” is literally right in front of your face in this forum and it is entirely your fault for not still refusing to educate yourself on these matters. I suggest that next time you wish to discuss these matters, please read up. We will be glad to clear up any misconceptions.

#1015

It looks like yoga has its origin in shamanism. This can can be traced to the Stone Age:

http://www.abc-of-yoga.com/beginnersguide/yogahistory.asp

(reposted again)

There are yoga scholars who show the shamanic roots of Hindu religious practices:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=8JdYQdukyd0C&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=does+shamanism+precede+yoga&source=bl&ots=DHtcqXbVdt&sig=0Ks-6T4RDu8vpi237M6zYvllHB0&hl=en&ei=COldTczxDcH_lgea8MHjCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CC8Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

#1016

Oak, I think you should read the links you post, because they don’t say what you think they are saying. First of all, lets begin, with link 1. Link 1 says that it is claimed that Yoga is as old as civilisation, but there is no evidence for that. The evidence instead shows the origins of Yoga in the Vedic period.

Link 2 says that Yoga is similar to shamanism and may have evolved out of shamanic practices? Do you know what shamanism is? It is not actually a religion, but a term given to aboriginal and tribal religious practices that incorporates ritual, magic, charms, spells, drugs, witchcraft, drumming, chanting etc. This is thought to be the first primitive religion on this planet and we can find evidence for it going back thousands of years. To say Yoga evolved from this, is like saying the steam engine evolved from the first cavemen who created fire by rubbing stones.

Just as the steam engine marks a huge shift in the evolution of humanity over fire, similarly Yoga marks a huge shift in the evolution of humanity over shamanism. Where did it first happen according to evidence? In India during the Vedic period(Your first link says the same)

#1017

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51871]Oak, I think you should read the links you post, because they don’t say what you think they are saying. First of all, lets begin, with link 1. Link 1 says that it is claimed that Yoga is as old as civilisation, but there is no evidence for that. The evidence instead shows the origins of Yoga in the Vedic period.

Link 2 says that Yoga is similar to shamanism and may have evolved out of shamanic practices? Do you know what shamanism is? It is not actually a religion, but a term given to aboriginal and tribal religious practices that incorporates ritual, magic, charms, spells, drugs, witchcraft, drumming, chanting etc. This is thought to be the first primitive religion on this planet and we can find evidence for it going back thousands of years. To say Yoga evolved from this, is like saying the steam engine evolved from the first cavemen who created fire by rubbing stones.

Just as the steam engine marks a huge shift in the evolution of humanity over fire, similarly Yoga marks a huge shift in the evolution of humanity over shamanism. Where did it first happen according to evidence? In India during the Vedic period(Your first link says the same)[/QUOTE]

Oak is just another Christian creationist. Ignore him SD. Lets argue with each other instead. :smiley:

#1018

To be honest, there were a discussions on Hinduism on this forum before I even joined. It is pretty natural for Hinduism to be discussed on a Yoga forum. As natural as it is for Taoism to be talked about on a Qigong forum.

#1019

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51154]This is a respectable view. Many Hindus agree with you, that we are distinct from the creator/super soul. Even I am closer to you on that one. This is why Yoga means connect and not merge.[/QUOTE]

There are many rungs to the ladder…
At the top is brahman. Yoga means union…neither connect nor merge

True there are varyingly duslistic and nondual interpretations of the upanishads aka vedanta
But yoga leads to union…of what? Experience…at the absolute pinnacle of samadhi lies the dissolution of duality…no form no name

Interesting, albeit highly charged thread (oft repeated in many other fora)

#1020

[QUOTE=thomas;51236]You make some false presumptions. You don’t allow for a creator endowing humans with a free will.

You presume a God who permits evil would be “perverse,” but are not seeing it from the perspective of a God who sees the eternal soul of the person doing the suffering. Besides, if you or another yogi have attained oneness with the godhead, why aren’t you ending the suffering?

I don’t presume to know the mind of God, or to understand how an infinite mind thinks, when mine is puny and finite, though my common sense tells me an infinite God does not have the “trouble” of creating anything, and it would be entirely effortless.

I think God has given human beings the gift of free will–to be able to choose to love and serve Him, and live happily ever after, or to be able to reject and spurn Him, and live in the eternal Hell which they prefer.[/QUOTE]
and how exactly is this “free” will??? sounds pretty conditional to me (and i grew up christian). even beyond this, how does one go about “choosing” to love and serve? one cannot “choose” to love or believe whatever they believe for that matter. something either resonates within you as truth or it doesn’t; you really can’t control that.