I see your prides getting puffed up.
EXCELLENT!
Question?
Who (the people) was in india before the vedic people settled? What were they called. You know the natives? How bout them?
and who before them?
History is nice - I look at it to learn from - to gather useful bits for life right now.
Nobody. Do you know the history of human migrations on this planet? It was only about 10,000 years ago that humans settlements first started to appear. The oldest settlements we know of is in Jericho. There are parallel settlements in the Indian subcontinent. The first being the Mehgarh phase, early food producing society. Prior to 10,000 years ago there was an ice age on this planet. Around 11-12,000 years ago the ice sheets melted on this planet, causing sea levels to rise significantly(perhaps explaining flood myths) but allowing human habitation of lands to take place. Prior to that most of the world was inhabitable and this is why we don’t see any signs of civilisation.
A fascinating rendition of ancient Indian history SD- but I am afraid it misses the real crux of the problem by quite some margin I am afraid.
Again, if you read my responses I do not equivocate on ancient Indian history as, from my point of view it misses the underlying problem which is this:-
Unless we can DEFINE what we mean by “Hinduism” and “yoga” we cannot make any convinving statements as to whether or not they are equivalent.
Of course, there is always the opportunity to do that, but this can (and does) cause problems - judging by the length of this thread alone!!
Here, you are wanting to define Hinduism (and by relation) yoga with reference to a method known as chronological seriation - fair enough and it is perfectly reasonable to do that.
However, we must not ignore the meaning or power of the words we are using - and their ability to obfuscate truth.
As we agreed, Hinduism is actually a “eurocentric” concept itself - and so this fact (you like facts - right?) instantly unsettles your claim that Hinduism is equivalent to yoga since yoga is a more ancient word, the word predates Hinduism.
So, the real issue from my point of view is not whether or not yoga is Hinduism - and/or visa versa but the philosophical instability of making such a claim.
Consider this lovely snippet of Indian philosophy for your delictation, I am sure we are getting somewhere nearer to the truth of the matter now.
praj?apti (Sanskrit: “designation by provisional naming”). Praj?apti is seen as a fictitious construction unrelated to ultimate reality, or nipprapa?ca (“what is devoid of verbal manifoldness”).
… the highest reality is nondifferential, beyond word and thought. Whatever is differentiated by praj?apti is regarded as only nominally existent. Since words denote no reality, empirical knowledge regarding worldly phenomena cannot be held as true in itself. This assertion results from the (Madhyamaka) school’s analysis of the process of cognition. When a person sees an object, there is only an immediate awareness that is yet undifferentiated into conceptions of perceptual judgment expressed in statements such as “This is that.” There occurs no analysis of the awareness into subject and object or subject and predicate. Such an analysis is brought about by a conceptual construction, which associates a thing with a name of a conception. This is the cause of illusion, since verbal designation is denied reality, and all empirical knowledge is composed of such judgment.
Thanks for keeping up.
[QUOTE=Yogi Mat;56342]A fascinating rendition of ancient Indian history SD- but I am afraid it misses the real crux of the problem by quite some margin I am afraid.
Again, if you read my responses I do not equivocate on ancient Indian history as, from my point of view it misses the underlying problem which is this:-
Unless we can DEFINE what we mean by “Hinduism” and “yoga” we cannot make any convinving statements as to whether or not they are equivalent.
Of course, there is always the opportunity to do that, but this can (and does) cause problems - judging by the length of this thread alone!!
Here, you are wanting to define Hinduism (and by relation) yoga with reference to a method known as chronological seriation - fair enough and it is perfectly reasonable to do that.
However, we must not ignore the meaning or power of the words we are using - and their ability to obfuscate truth.
As we agreed, Hinduism is actually a “eurocentric” concept itself - and so this fact (you like facts - right?) instantly unsettles your claim that Hinduism is equivalent to yoga since yoga is a more ancient word, the word predates Hinduism.
So, the real issue from my point of view is not whether or not yoga is Hinduism - and/or visa versa but the philosophical instability of making such a claim.
Consider this lovely snippet of Indian philosophy for your delictation, I am sure we are getting somewhere nearer to the truth of the matter now.
Thanks for keeping up.[/QUOTE]
wuts yor problem buddy?
cant define yoga and hinduism?
Here ya go! From my dictionary
[B]yoga[/B] |ˈyōgə|
noun
a Hindu spiritual and ascetic discipline, a part of which, including breath control, simple meditation, and the adoption of specific bodily postures, is widely practiced for health and relaxation.
The yoga widely known in the West is based on hatha yoga, which forms one aspect of the ancient Hindu system of religious and ascetic observance and meditation, the highest form of which is raja yoga and the ultimate aim of which is spiritual purification and self-understanding leading to samadhi or union with the divine.
now here’s your hinduism!
[B]Hinduism[/B] |ˈhindoōˌizəm|
noun
a major religious and cultural tradition of the Indian subcontinent, developed from Vedic religion.
Hinduism is practiced primarily in India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and Nepal. It is a diverse family of devotional and ascetic cults and philosophical schools, all sharing a belief in reincarnation and involving the worship of one or more of a large pantheon of gods and goddesses, including Shiva and Vishnu (incarnate as Rama and Krishna), Kali, Durga, Parvati, and Ganesh. Hindu society was traditionally based on a caste system.
Glad I could be of service!
*Tips cap
Thanks for that Scales, BUT I did not say Hinduim CANNOT be defined - I am discussing HOW we might define it - the problem is not a LACJK of DEFINITION but the multiplicity of definitions. There only seems to be a consenseus of definition if we are to accept Indology - which is undertaken by academics - and this is SD’s point - that current interpretations are unstable, and SD wants to argue that many are biased towards a westernised mindset - and he could be right. This is not MY problem - this is a problem for everyone it would seem?
Well done The Scales.
We do have definitions for both Hinduism and Yoga.
Yogi Mat is just deliberately overcomplicating the matter with all this talk of semantics. His point is that these words mean different things to different people. But that is true of any word. Everybody uses a word differently. But words do actually have objective and denotational meanings as well - otherwise we would not have dictionaries 
I know what the word Hinduism means and what the word Yoga means. To add to the definitions you cited
Hinduism: Refers to the Vedic tradition which begins in 7000BCE in the Indian subcontinent
Yoga: Refers to the system of religious and ascestic practices the Vedic people practiced, consisting of physical austerities, breath control, meditation. In 3000BCE Patanjali systematizes these practices to create Raja Yoga or classical Yoga.
Why overcomplicate it any further?
Why overcomplicate it any further?
I agree - lets just say the world is flat - it is much SIMPLER that way.
BTW: Also, the world was created in seven days by the Triune (Christian) God, the Big Bang Theory is just a conspiracy against Christians based on all those rascist physicists at CERN. lol
Yeah, dude, lets just say the world is flat. Will you go away then?
Lets be serious what is your problem? Why don’t you want Yoga and Hinduism to mean what they are accepted to mean? What are the alternative meanings?
You still have not made a point in this thread. What is your case? What are you arguing? What do you want want Yoga and Hinduism to mean?
Say something substantial so we can talk or go away.
SD: If you want to accept Scales definition for Hinduism then fine - but how will you then explain the inconsistency between those definitions? (for example) why there is no caste system in yoga texts? - careful now - I will warn you that this is a bit of a Red Herring - because the caste system (as commonly known today) is not the caste system of the original Hindu doctrine - but as a Hindu expert, and an expert in anthropology, epistemology and archaeology (all from your extensive research on Wikipedia) I am sure you know that already? lol
I have not made you look like a fool - you have done that all by yourself.
I told you you were using adhominems. At least you are being open about it now
There is caste system in Yoga texts. Rig Veda is a Yoga text. It describes caste system
Bhagvad Gita is a Yoga text. It describes caste system.
My studies in Hinduism have been ongoing for 10 years. I read about 100 scholarly books on Hinduism and I have been practicing Hinduism.
What is the point you are trying to make. I still don’t know what your case is.
Your assertion was that YOGA IS HINDUISM and your arguments are not convincing. You ignore some very important aspects of the discussion and MOST SIGNIFICANTLY you are latterly prepared to accept TWO definitions - one for each - and ignore how this contradicts your claim.
-
You have a complaint that ancient Indian history has been misinterpreted - which I UPHOLD- but you IGNORE the weaknesses in your own interpretation
-
You accuse Indologists of being racist - and I am open to that possibility although it is irrelevant to your primary claim
As I said before - you are the one making the assertion “YOGA IS HINDUISM” - so the burden of proof is with you - and although you may have convinced yourself and a few others that this is THE ONE TRUE ANSWER - this is the NIRVANA FALLACY.
There is often more than one answer to the problem and you want to decry other answers, which you have not done to my satisfaction due to your rhetorical mode of expression.
There is sufficient uncertainty in the evidence you have given for me to both accept and reject your claim.
-
I accept Yoga is Hinduism but only with some a severely truncated notion of what each represents
-
I reject Yoga is Hinduism if taking into consideration the multiplicity of perspectives on both subjects
Thank you for your participation _ I value your contribution on what is a very difficult field of study.
I will take what you have said into consideration in my research.
If there is nothing else you wish to say to me then I will take my leave.
if you have any further questions I will answer them as best I can
With best wishes
Ad hom is an attack on the person _ i have not attacked you - I have given you alternative opinions - my opinion is that you have made yourself look like a fool - that is not to say that you are one
I have not said that the caste system does not appear in yogic texts, but if it is fundamental to yoga then we might expect it to appear in EVERY canonical yogic text - and yet it does not, and you cannot explain why we have TWO definitions for both words that contain different concepts.
I am NOT arguing your belief - to do so would be futile. I am questioning your analysis, interpretation, your logic (or more specifically the lack of it) and conclusions.
If this helps at all I have been practicing yoga since 1969 and have been studying the literature since about 1990, (about 20 years).
This is not to say that I am claiming superiority - only that it might help you to direct your responses more efficiently - for example it might be safe to assume that I have a reasonable grasp of the subject matter and that I am capable of maintaining an intelligent and useful discussion on the subject.
If you think otherwise then I suggest you cease responding to save us both some time?
You have a complaint that ancient Indian history has been misinterpreted - which I UPHOLD- but you IGNORE the weaknesses in your own interpretation
No, we know Indian history has been falsified by early indologists. If you want I can even quote early indologists and how they actually said that wanted to destroy and uproot Vedic civilisation. Max Muller revealed in a letter to his wife the only reason he was doing a translation of the Rig Veda was to destroy Vedic civilisation. He was the one that proposed the 1500BCE date for the beginning of Indian history.
- You accuse Indologists of being racist - and I am open to that possibility although it is irrelevant to your primary claim
They were racist, you freak 
I could give you quote after quote from their own mouth revealing their racism.
As I said before - you are the one making the assertion “YOGA IS HINDUISM” - so the burden of proof is with you - and although you may have convinced yourself and a few others that this is THE ONE TRUE ANSWER - this is the NIRVANA FALLACY.
I have already proven this assertion. It has been proven over and over again throughout this 1000+ thread 
Review it and see all the evidence we have presented.
Yoga is both a philosophy and a practice and this philosophy and practice is what Hinduism reaches. I already told you every Hindu scripture teaches Yoga. This makes them identical.
The teachings, tenets and techniques of Hinduism are Yoga. It’s a religion of Yoga.
Have you actually read the following Hindu scriptures:
Yoga Sutras
Yoga Vasistha
Bhagvad Gita
Hatha Yoga Pradipaka
Shiva Samhita
Yoga Upanishad
They all teach Yoga you freak
Or are you now going to claim they are not Hindu scriptures
Thanks for sharing your views, if you have no further questions or comments for my attention I will now take this opportunity to leave.
Haha, this thread was never about you. Answering your questions or giving you help You are the one that popped up out of nowhere contesting Yoga and Hinduism. Ended up not saying anything of substance at all. And now are leaving. Good riddance
The argument for substance trumping essence is something that many people do not fully understand.
Good luck with your study, you seem to be on the right track - but don’t let those big feet trip you up!
[QUOTE=The Scales;56314]I see your prides getting puffed up.
EXCELLENT!
Question?
Who (the people) was in india before the vedic people settled? What were they called. You know the natives? How bout them?
and who before them?
History is nice - I look at it to learn from - to gather useful bits for life right now.[/QUOTE]
History is not nice when it is false.