Is Yoga Hinduism?


#1261

By the way needed to correct:

Heidigger, a student of Husserl objected to Husserl to not remaining true to his original project and created his own phenomenology. Again there was a dharmic influence on Heidigger, he was heavily inspired by the Kyoto school of philosophy, but again he did not acknowledge his sources.

While im at it I will say a few words on supermacy. I am getting criticised on this forum by many members both Indian and Western(less Indian, more Western) for saying Hinduism/dharmic culture is superior? But the supremacy of Western culture and philosophy is taken for granted by everybody. Even Yogimat earlier tried to force us to comply by the null hypothesis assuming its superiorty and the null hypothesis comes from where? Western culture. It is automatically assumed that Western democracy, Western science, Western technology is modernism, advancement and progress. What is this, if not the assertion of Western superiority?

When I say the following words in the West: Hinduism, caste system, India, Bollywood. I immediately get the following definitions from people Hinduism = a religion where they have millions of gods, like monkey gods, elephant gods, rat gods; caste system = a really evil and oppressive system where people are forced into work based on their birth and where there are untouchables; india = poor, illiterate third world country and land of call centers Bollywood = The movies of India where they break out into song and dance every 5 min, are all stories about people getting married, and they are melodramatic and unrealistic. I have heard these stereotypes from even educated Western people. Now, here is what is surprising: when I tell them that these are just streotypes and proceed to give the right information, they respond that I am biassed, Indian nationalist, romantic, revisionist. Thus they automatically assume their Western version is true and ours is false. The same happened during colonial times in India, everything we had to say about our history, culture, philosophy and religion was false - and whatever the West said about us was true.

I mean look at this thread alone a few people have posted here saying don’t say Yoga is Hinduism because Hinduism is about caste system, cows and worship of monkeys and elephants and Yoga is a science of spirituality. If we correct these stereotypes, we are told we are Indian nationalists. So as a Hindu I should not be expected to have more knowledge on Hinduism than some ignorant Westerner whose not even read the Gita? What is this if not Western supremacy?

And then if I do the unthinkable and say that actually it is not the West that is superior, but it is the other way around, the Hindus are superior. Then I become a demon? An extremist? A fundamentalist? My Indian friends and well wishers, see through the propoganda you get fed in the West. Recognise the Western supermacy you get indoctrinated with - and reject it. I will repeat: Hindu culture is more superior than the West. Everything we have is of a superior quality.


#1262

if you had any idea how deeply ingrained anti-Hinduism and western supremacy is in even in academic institutions in the West you would pause for concern.

I faced it when studying philosophy at university and daring to challenge the misrepresentations which almost got me kicked out of university. I came very close to it. We were told this as if it was a fact: West = democratic, truth-loving, rational and scientific East = irrational, mystical and authoritarian. I complained about this to somebody at the Hindu society who is a researcher and philosopher. He put me in touch with a teacher of Indian philosophy at Kingston college, who is white and he told me how much prejudice he faced within his own staff against Indian philosophy.

It is not just an isolated problem, it is an institutional problem that has its roots in anti-Hinduism going back to the 19th century. Hegel, Marx made outright chauvanistic statements about India and its culture, and these are some of the most widely read and respected Western intellectuals. Heidigger, Hegel, Husserl were all Western supremists and each wrote on how Western civilisation was the pinnacle of civilisation and history and needed to dominate the entire world.

A film like “Slumdog millionaire” and “Water” gets the highest accloades and praises in the Western media, and yet both represent their culture in the worst light possible. SM shows unrelenting negative images about India, that were so offensive even my mother turned it off when she got 20 min into the film. Water begins by saying “scripture says a woman should burn on the pyre with her dead husband” and this films gets huge acclam, despite being a really slow, repetitive and shallow film - why? Because it portrays Hinduism in a horrible light.

Imagine if Bollywood made a film on the ghettos in America or WACO or the Seattle riots, or the chav and ASBO’s in Britain - you can be rest assured it would not win any awards or acclaim - and get universal condemnation. Why, because West assumes its own superiorty and thus it is OK for it to criticise other cultures, but it is not ok for others cultures to criticise it.

The trouble with this world is not enough of us criticise the West.


#1263

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57206]if you had any idea how deeply ingrained anti-Hinduism and western supremacy is in even in academic institutions in the West you would pause for concern.

I faced it when studying philosophy at university and daring to challenge the misrepresentations which almost got me kicked out of university. I came very close to it. We were told this as if it was a fact: West = democratic, truth-loving, rational and scientific East = irrational, mystical and authoritarian. I complained about this to somebody at the Hindu society who is a researcher and philosopher. He put me in touch with a teacher of Indian philosophy at Kingston college, who is white and he told me how much prejudice he faced within his own staff against Indian philosophy.

It is not just an isolated problem, it is an institutional problem that has its roots in anti-Hinduism going back to the 19th century. Hegel, Marx made outright chauvanistic statements about India and its culture, and these are some of the most widely read and respected Western intellectuals. Heidigger, Hegel, Husserl were all Western supremists and each wrote on how Western civilisation was the pinnacle of civilisation and history and needed to dominate the entire world.

A film like “Slumdog millionaire” and “Water” gets the highest accloades and praises in the Western media, and yet both represent their culture in the worst light possible. SM shows unrelenting negative images about India, that were so offensive even my mother turned it off when she got 20 min into the film. Water begins by saying “scripture says a woman should burn on the pyre with her dead husband” and this films gets huge acclam, despite being a really slow, repetitive and shallow film - why? Because it portrays Hinduism in a horrible light.

Imagine if Bollywood made a film on the ghettos in America or WACO or the Seattle riots, or the chav and ASBO’s in Britain - you can be rest assured it would not win any awards or acclaim - and get universal condemnation. Why, because West assumes its own superiorty and thus it is OK for it to criticise other cultures, but it is not ok for others cultures to criticise it.

The trouble with this world is not enough of us criticise the West.[/QUOTE]

Our refutations and criticisms of Western civilization will land upon deaf ears. Why? Because the West, in its present state, is superior. They care not for the barbarity characterizing their civilizations 1000, 2000, 3000, or 4000 years ago. What matters to them is that they are superior and the rest of the world is inferior. Ignore the colonialism, imperialism, and the rape of “inferior” races and cultures! Instead, lets shit on the “backwards” societal systems in different nations, discarding the fact that EVERY civilization in its nadir develops some sort of abominable or wretched practice (lets have a wonderful discussion about slavery in America, shall we?).

This is precisely why I dislike the West so much. Instead of expressing remorse for their imperialist, mercantile, and colonialist history, Westerners continue to assert and JUSTIFY their “superiority”. Instead of HELPING other nations develop INDEPENDENTLY, free from the clutches of oil-hungry Western capitalist corporations and Western gambits for power, they continue to try to “Westernize” and “globalize” (meaning develop but under the foot of the West) the rest of the world.

Is this what you call a superior civilization? Is a superior civilization one that produces materialistic, arrogant, supremacist, and hypocritical people? Does a superior civilization denounce “inferior” civilizations and yet run to those civilizations to gain spirituality?

This is why I repeatedly assert that Westerners, especially the kind most prevalent on this forum, can never break free from maya or samsara. This [B]isn’t[/B] a matter of racism but rather one of CULTURE and SOCIETY. Westerners have had quite a history with racism, conquest, violence, war, and so forth and I am afraid to say that such notions of superiority have been so ingrained in Western SOCIETY, that Westerners take their supremacy for granted. It takes CONSIDERABLE amount of work to break free from such willful ignorance.

The West is materially superior; I will grant it that. Even I have great gratitude to the West for enabling us “inferior” and “backwards” peoples to educate and enrich ourselves through immigration and meritocratic systems. But that is where my appreciation ends for I can never find peace in such an incongruous society.

India may be a shithole or a toilet but its where I am the happiest and at one with myself. Even with all its poverty and dirtiness, I can still say this: the harder the path, the greater the triumph. If we Indians keep persevering, keep campaigning for reform, change and the discovery of our roots, I can guarantee that India will once again become the nation it once was.


#1264

[QUOTE=The Scales;57161]Has anybody won yet?:cool:[/QUOTE]

SO - yoga is all about winning is it?

BTW: Have you manged to get your time down to under 5 minutes in meditation yet Scales ? [IGNORE]


#1265

@Nietzsche

This message is hidden because Nietzsche is on your ignore list.
What now ? I can’t hear you - you will have to SPEAK UP


#1266

Dear Friends and SD,

You may be pleased to hear that I am now leaving this forum!!

I feel well and truly beaten down and tea-bagged by the veracity of SD’s prejudice, irrationality and information dumps in particular.

If you claim to be a yogi, and you live in the UK - or travel to the UK to teach and wish to employ your intellectual capabilities in a more meaningful way I would suggest you cease bad-mouthing your fellow yogis in this forum and instead write to Sport England with your concerns:-

New Controversy Hits Yoga in the UK
http://yogawiki.co/AYogaBook/UKYogaDemographics

Thankyou for your participation in what has been both a lively and inspirational discussion inasmuch it has inspired me to move on to other things!!

I hope you can too

God Bless You All!


#1267

I anticipated Yogi mat would say this(I am rarely ever wrong about things, it is almost psychic :wink: ) This is because he now realises he is talking to far more educated people and intelligent people than him. Dwai introduced the very crucial importance of the categorical framework, which I really thank Dwai for, because it has proved to be a great asset in this discussion. I then expanded on the categorical framework and showed the differences between Western and dharmic categorical frameworks, and how they are incommensurable with one another. Thus to establish position that Yoga can only be properly understood and practiced if one has the dharmic categorical framework, as it comes from dharmic culture.

Yogi Mat’s only argument was that words have diverse meanings, therefore we cannot say what Yoga means. But the absurdity of this argument was demonstrated by me where I destroyed his argument a few posts ago by showing that if that was true even a single post by him would not make sense, every word can have multiple meanings. Now he has nothing left to contribute to this discussion and feels exposed, so he’s decided to leave the forum. I wish him luck in his life.

By the way here is another difference between our categorical frameworks. Yogi mat calls knowledge information dumps; we call knowledge saraswati;)


#1268

goodbye yogimat it was good to have you around you bought wisdom and new perspective this place will be poorer without you.


#1269

ummm

wut


#1270

[QUOTE=Yogi Mat;57229]SO - yoga is all about winning is it?

BTW: Have you manged to get your time down to under 5 minutes in meditation yet Scales ? [IGNORE][/QUOTE]

What isn’t down to winning? Last night, at my level II ashtanga class, I came in second. So close, but got overtaken down the stretch in savasana.


#1271

[QUOTE=charliedharma;57241]goodbye yogimat it was good to have you around you bought wisdom and new perspective this place will be poorer without you.[/QUOTE]

It is always regretful when someone comes on the forum and willingly elects to play with the pet trolls, then, despite many warnings against it, choose to hand feed them and are surprised when bitten and spat at with toxic malice. Why not join the warm conversation inside the cozy house and share experiences instead?


#1272

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57202]By the way needed to correct:

While im at it I will say a few words on supermacy. I am getting criticised on this forum by many members both Indian and Western(less Indian, more Western) for saying Hinduism/dharmic culture is superior? But the supremacy of Western culture and philosophy is taken for granted by everybody. Even Yogimat earlier tried to force us to comply by the null hypothesis assuming its superiorty and the null hypothesis comes from where? Western culture. It is automatically assumed that Western democracy, Western science, Western technology is modernism, advancement and progress. What is this, if not the assertion of Western superiority?

When I say the following words in the West: Hinduism, caste system, India, Bollywood. I immediately get the following definitions from people Hinduism = a religion where they have millions of gods, like monkey gods, elephant gods, rat gods; caste system = a really evil and oppressive system where people are forced into work based on their birth and where there are untouchables; india = poor, illiterate third world country and land of call centers Bollywood = The movies of India where they break out into song and dance every 5 min, are all stories about people getting married, and they are melodramatic and unrealistic. I have heard these stereotypes from even educated Western people. Now, here is what is surprising: when I tell them that these are just streotypes and proceed to give the right information, they respond that I am biassed, Indian nationalist, romantic, revisionist. Thus they automatically assume their Western version is true and ours is false. The same happened during colonial times in India, everything we had to say about our history, culture, philosophy and religion was false - and whatever the West said about us was true.

I mean look at this thread alone a few people have posted here saying don’t say Yoga is Hinduism because Hinduism is about caste system, cows and worship of monkeys and elephants and Yoga is a science of spirituality. If we correct these stereotypes, we are told we are Indian nationalists. So as a Hindu I should not be expected to have more knowledge on Hinduism than some ignorant Westerner whose not even read the Gita? What is this if not Western supremacy?

And then if I do the unthinkable and say that actually it is not the West that is superior, but it is the other way around, the Hindus are superior. Then I become a demon? An extremist? A fundamentalist? My Indian friends and well wishers, see through the propoganda you get fed in the West. Recognise the Western supermacy you get indoctrinated with - and reject it. I will repeat: Hindu culture is more superior than the West. Everything we have is of a superior quality.[/QUOTE]

Hi sd,

I understand and share some of your frustrations, but experience has shown me that taking on an oncoming force head-on with resistance is sooner or later going to overwhelm us. It is better to be like A matador and defeat that force with skill and by redirecting the force. I have been interacting with very accomplished individuals of the indic intelligentsia since the past 8-9 years. You have already read some of their works…via establishments such as the Infinity Foundation. I would recommend taking these as our role model since they are working with composure and generating high quality academic work sans the rhetoric and polemics to help people like you and me make sound arguments sans the emotive aspect and ad hominems to defuse opposition and pressures that try and disenfranchise us (the heirs to our ancetors’ legacy) from what should be our natural right…to represent ourselves and our own culture without the interference of biased and negative anthropological paradigms.

Best,

Dwai


#1273

It is better to be like A matador and defeat that force with skill and by redirecting the force. I have been interacting with very accomplished individuals of the indic intelligentsia since the past 8-9 years.

Fantastic, I would love to talk to them and get their insights. I am a simple soul rooted strongly in dharma, so I find it hard to do rheotric and politics, because for me satya is supreme. I say exactly what I think. I am an open book with nothing to hide. My argumentative style also works in a dialectical manner. I respond in kind. Harsh words get repaid by harshness. Our niti says that when dealing with harsh people, we should be equally harsh.

I am glad you joined Dwai. It is nice to have another educated member on this this forum :slight_smile:


#1274

"SO - yoga is all about winning is it? "

No. If one is entering into the matter with any idea of gaining anything, one is bound to be disappointed. And whatever can be gained, is certain to be lost sooner or later.


#1275

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;57278]"SO - yoga is all about winning is it? "

No. If one is entering into the matter with any idea of gaining anything, one is bound to be disappointed. And whatever can be gained, is certain to be lost sooner or later.[/QUOTE]

I have GAINED so much more than you can imagine from ‘the yoga.’

idiot.

Listen. I know your a fraud. You know your a fraud. WHy keep playing?

Oh I know.

This is what children do.


#1276

[QUOTE=The Scales;57253]ummm

wut[/QUOTE]

maybe his last post to you was lacking in something


#1277

What wisdom and perspective charlie? Ever since he got here he has been rude and patronizing to us, especially to me and even told me I was lying about my education. All this time he only had one argument or perspective to offer and that was Yoga has diverse meanings in the dictionary, therefore we could not define it. Geez :wink:


#1278

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57288]What wisdom and perspective charlie? Ever since he got here he has been rude and patronizing to us, especially to me and even told me I was lying about my education. All this time he only had one argument or perspective to offer and that was Yoga has diverse meanings in the dictionary, therefore we could not define it. Geez ;)[/QUOTE]

Maybe im wrong , but I felt he/she did present a good debate , a different way of putting things , a new voice if you like , I felt he added to the discussion and was looking forward to seeing how his discussion developed , I was probably being a bit naughty too:roll:
He/she was robust but others are as robust , no ? I hear you about your degree , it was not necessary for him to bang on about it.


#1279

If there was one thing that has been proven on this thread, it is that “The Scales” is an awesome guy.

I have GAINED so much more than you can imagine from ‘the yoga.’

idiot.

Listen. I know your a fraud. You know your a fraud. WHy keep playing?

Oh I know.

This is what children do.


#1280

[QUOTE=Dwai;57266]Hi sd,

I understand and share some of your frustrations, but experience has shown me that taking on an oncoming force head-on with resistance is sooner or later going to overwhelm us. It is better to be like A matador and defeat that force with skill and by redirecting the force. I have been interacting with very accomplished individuals of the indic intelligentsia since the past 8-9 years. You have already read some of their works…via establishments such as the Infinity Foundation. I would recommend taking these as our role model since they are working with composure and generating high quality academic work sans the rhetoric and polemics to help people like you and me make sound arguments sans the emotive aspect and ad hominems to defuse opposition and pressures that try and disenfranchise us (the heirs to our ancetors’ legacy) from what should be our natural right…to represent ourselves and our own culture without the interference of biased and negative anthropological paradigms.

Best,

Dwai[/QUOTE]

Fantastic Dwai! I would love to be able to correspond with such individuals if I were a bit older! Why don’t you invite them to this forum so they can discuss Indian history with the rest of us?