Knowing the Knower

Spirituality
#1

Hey Hubert,

I just wanted to say this but I did not want to take over Pawel’s thread:

That’s because it is [I]not[/I] an experience. It is [I]that[/I] which sees every experience. It is [I]that[/I] in which experience arises. You are there always for experiences to be experienced by/known by. So in that sense, you have already arrived, or you could say, you have never arrived, for you are always the knower of experience, regardless what experiences you experience, you are there as the knower of that experience.

So it is not an experience nor it it theoretical really. It’s a simple acknowledgment of the fact that you exist. Basically every single experience, moment by moment simply does one thing and one thing only: It confirms your existence as awareness. It confirms that you [I]know[/I] the experience. All phenomena simply confirm the perceiver. How else could phenomena be known? How could you react to them, analyze them, experience them?

It is this perceiver in which all things arise and from this knowing who you are again and again no matter what the experience feels like or tells you, all the ‘spiritual’ promised experience comes from that self-knowing, self recognition, but you’ll be free as the knower even of these experiences that follow.

Hope this helps,
Bentinho.

#2

If it counts, I am aware of the human condition. But as far as I know, it cannot be equaled with existence. I have shown that in sleep, this awarness of our own existence is lacking. I do not remember my former lives so I can only say the same about death. I do not know if I was existing before my birth* or, if I will exist after the time of my death. I just believe it, but that’s another story, and we can leave that alone for now.

Because of this, I must say: my current ability to realize my existence is not enough to cross the river Acheron. Now, I know better than to reject abilities others might have and I have not, so I will not deny that what you say is possible or true. It is only inapplicable for me. I am not satisfied with the “ordinary” ability to asess my own presence and existence. Why ? Because I see it’s limits. These limits are fact. Not thinking of them will not make them non-existant. Rather, I need quidance in how, if possible at all, can I extend or transcend these limits.

  • and because I do not even remember my birth, or my early days, months, years, I must say, that the ordinary ability to realize my own existence depends entirely on the power of my memory. So the way I seek is one that makes me able to realize my continuity of being on a larger scale. First, I would like to extend my awareness to the expereince of my own existence during sleep. Why ? Let’s turn the famous yoga teaching. I exist now. I did exist yesterday. I must have been existing during sleep - yet I am not aware of it. What did happen to my self awareness in that time ? Where did it go ? Why ? Why do I not remember ? Than, maybe if I could arrive to the clarification of these strange things, than I might give a try to the question of death.

You are right. No theory or religion can answer these questions for me. I must answer them myself, not with speculative thinking, but by experimental knowledge.

This is what I know, and can say with all honesty. If I said otherwise, I would be lying, or expressing believes I can’t prove by self expereince.

What I believe, because people who had the same issues, answered them and has made us known, say it; and it kind of makes sense, too, although one cannot cannot be sure, until one has the same expereince, again, what I believe, is that by exerting our awareness, and our faculties like memory, focus, ability to form an maintain mental representations, one can strenghten them to the level where they become able to transcend these limits I have spoken of. I believe that one realizes in this process that the forces and activities of one’s mind are actually just as real (if not more) than the so called outer, sensorial reality.

Because I am aware of my own limits in so many areas supposedly necessary for this more than ordinary “existence” to enfold, I seek ways to eliminate/extend them. In this, your always assuring statements has been helpful because they made me realize my own limits more clearly. I am not sure that was your intention, though.

Actually, you are being of great help. You make me to get serious. :slight_smile:

#3

Hey Hubert,

Great respons. I understand your reasoning and it is very logical and natural. You are a very sane person in that respect, not easily moved to something other than what you already know. Which is both good as well as limiting I guess.

Speaking of limits, you emphasize how you are well aware of your limits. I wish to comment on this. Also I wish to include another sentence of yours in my comment, because both, however true they may seem, are those kind of thoughts which are the only limiting factor really.
[U]
So you say:[/U]

  1. I am well aware of my limits.
  2. Not thinking of them will not make them non-existant.

Two very reasonable explanations of your situation. However, I think you should take another look at these before you assume that they are the way you say they are and continue with faith in these two statements. That might make you miss a lot of possibilities.

Could it be that you are not well aware of your limits, but that you are well aware of your thoughts that refer to your self-imposed limits? Let’s not enter into the realm of: “But I cannot fly right now and make mountains disappear.” I am not talking about these kind of limits. I am simply referring to the limits you point at that deal with your ability to recognize your true nature. Because maybe the limits you are well aware of, are only your thoughts of limits and not actual limits. In fact, you can try it. Go and get a limit for me and bring it here. Show yourself a limit. Touch it, see it. Is it there? or is it only a thought of limits?.. This does not mean that you should suddenly see the light, but at least it can make you see that limits exist pretty much only in our minds/thoughts.

Then you say that by not thinking of them will not make them non-existent. But I invite you not to prove their non-existence, rather, proof that they existed in the first place. Because they do not become non-existent when not thinking about it, you’ll just come to see, in time and with first hand experience of the timeless which is actually quite simply right here now, that there never were any limits but in your thinking about them.

[U]So basically this is an invitation[/U] to recognize that which is aware of your thoughts and reasoning right now. Even as you are thinking about limitations and even as you feel bothered, suffocated by them even, just acknowledge that there is something which is aware of that experience as a whole right now.

From this comes direct recognition of what is timelessly here. And from that the implication of your thoughts and the contents they seem to point at, gradually lose more power and real-ness, or value.

[U]So then suddenly one day you’ll see:[/U] [I]“Well what do you know! I was thinking a few months ago how there were all these limitations to my ability to recognize my buddha-nature, but now I can recognize That which is beyond all experience, yet is simply right here as my present witnessing, whenever I want to, and from here I can look at these tiny little thoughts over there which are trying to tell me something that seems very significant to them, but I simply cannot believe in their stories anymore, even if I wanted too!”[/I]

Then you will see how these thoughts never really had any value in the first place. So the limits they were pointing at, were simply their own story. It is like each thought has a little world of its own with its own set of rules and conditions. We can see those worlds and yet not believe in them even if they appear to be as real as everything else we can sense.

So basically what happens when we are in a discussion, and for example you have been contemplating this topic for a day or two and suddenly a thought arises which connects all loose-ends together, and you got yourself a new theory and everything seems to fit right in and be true. We all know this experience right? What do you do with such an appearance normally?

You belief in it and engage automatically by identifying with it, right? this happens naturally because our newly found world-view is all that we see and recognize. Which is fine, but we forget to acknowledge that there’s actually someone watching this concept as it comes along. We forget to acknowledge our own presence in the face of our world-views.

Well, try to notice such instances when the intellect sucks you into identifying it because the concept/world-view seems so very very real and authentic. Even than, awareness is right there knowing that conceptual construct. Even the sensation and identification process, when fully ongoing, is experienced and known by that which is aware of it.

So where are the limits but in believing in our own conceptual constructs? I invite you to try this acknowledgment of the Seer’s presence for a little longer. Give the following question some more time to take you in; [I]“What is it that knows this situation? What sees the experience?”[/I] And does that knower that’s there in every situation, waiting for us to acknowledge its presence, limited by any of that which it knows? Is it limited to our world views, or is the knower just being there no matter what appears, free as being the knower, not an experience of sensations, but just being the stainless knower?

Love,
Bentinho.

#4

Bentinho, you are clearly not able to depart from seeing the whole of human condition in theoretical terms. And you are sick of it, because you realize their relative nature.

Whatever one might bring to your table, they are just thoughts, concepts, and theories, world-views for you. You simply cannot imagine that any real “knowledge”, or expereince can be had, other than your own presence, existence, and self awareness.
And you might be right, but you must realize that a discussion cannot be had with one, whose every answer is just: those are just unreal thoughts. Simply, one can’t have a converastion with you, because that requires sharing each other’s believes, or opinions to certain level, in order to have a common ground. For you there is no ground at all, the result being the impossibility to have a meaningful discussion with you. You might say, that you are beyond discussion - but than why are you still trying ? I for one, will not continue, because my attempts to create such commond ground has been unfruitful because of your inability to give credit to anything other’s might say. (The attitude that thoughts are not real does not absolve one from having a sound thinking, especially if one has to use it in discussion) And it’s not that I do not agree to a level, or what you say is wrong: it simply is not enough for me, does not work for me, or perhaps I am utterly unable to realize it’s wisdom. Do not take this last statement as an invitation to explain. If through so many posts, I do not see, there must be something wrong either with me, or with you. I am no longer concerned about this, though.

#5

Yes that’s basically the case. So regular discussion is going to be hard because I have no particular standpoint to choose and I will be coming back again and again to this recognition of who we are in every situation and discussion. General discussion kind of lost its power because I don’t see it going anywhere. Although I am not saying experience is unreal, I am saying that in order to fully understand life and enjoy it in the most carefree and beneficial way possible, we must not forget who is doing the experiencing even when in the face of intense experience.

[U]I just read your post-edit:[/U] So basically what is the case is that you recognize the truth in it, but the habit and desire to the fulfillment that you gain through regular discussion is stronger at this point than your willingness to kind of go beyond it? Perhaps you still see value in regular discussion, in that case it is understandable that you find our talks meaningless discussions. No offense meant and no offense taken.

But I am not advising you to stop general discussion, I only invite you to keep doing whatever it is you are doing in your life, you don’t need to change a single habit, I just invite you to [I]See[/I] for short moments regularly. Just remind yourself of who is present as the knower of the experience?

There is no discussion in this I agree, just an invitation to implement this remembering in whatever it is you are already doing. Nothing needs to change. This recognition of the knower will change naturally whatever you wish to change at that point.

Love,
B.

#6

Well, in this remembrence, you have been surely helpful. How could I forget ? :slight_smile:

#7

Oh and one more thing my friend, I saw you re-re-edited your post haha, and at the end you say something that is crucial:

If through so many posts, I do not see, there must be something wrong either with me, or with you. I am no longer concerned about this, though.
Perhaps it is that you [I]expect[/I] a certain set of experiences that together match your idea of how it would be like to see what I am pointing at? Try to ponder over this one if you still care a little bit :).

Because often when we hear about our already present nature, we try hard to see it, but in doing so we (subconsciously) expect a certain experience to be the case. But I am telling your right now that what I am pointing at, is already right here in this mundane experience. Try to really see for yourself, regardless of the experience, how this set of feelings and thoughts which you are having right now, can actually already be free? Let this question take you to the recognition and acknowledgment of the presence of the knower whom is knowing this experience. What is this freedom that I am referring to that’s right here already, and has no experience of its own, rather it is there throughout all experience? What sees all experience? What sees even the experience of enlightenment?

So I just wanted to share that often people are looking for some kind of experience, or a set of feelings that will indicate: [I]“Ah, now I got it!”[/I] This is not true necessarily. Rather it is that which knows that you are feeling the way you are feeling right now. And every experience emanates from that experience-less knower.

So when you say that after so many posts you are still not seeing it, I say that you are constantly seeing it (how else could you see that you are not seeing it?) but you search for something other than what is here right now. If you were not looking for some other experience to indicate what I am referring to, you would recognize the simple fact that you were not able to think and see, and respond and discuss with me if you were not right there seeing everything in every second of your life.

So my friend, you are already seeing it, even if thoughts arise that say you do not. It is that which knows even these thoughts. And no matter how hard they deny that you already see it, it is about that which sees them also.

Love,
B.

#8

well true…its sounds really helpful…