Making a Christian a better Christian

I think it was Swami Vivekananda that once said that nobody needs to convert to Hinduism, but rather one should remain within their own religion and just become a better member of their religion. Swami Ramakrishna, Vivekananandas guru, said he tried both the Christian and Muslim religon and he had proven they were valid paths to god.(Of course he was not really practicing Christianity and Islam as they are prescribed, but by his own interpretation)

This is in contrast to the what Vedas say though, “Make the whole world Aryan” It is contrast to the traditional intellectual tradition of Hinduism as well where massive debates were held between parties from different religons in order to prove one of them wrong. Certainly, Adisankarcharya, did not go about trying to make Buddhists better Buddhists!

Yet for some reason the great Hindu minds of the 20th century adopted a religious pluralist approach and made no attempt to win converts to Hinduism, but rather instead repackaged Hindusim as Yoga/Vedanta/Ayurveda as a science or a technology to be used by everybody. It is due to them in fact that we today have Christians doing Christian Yoga and Christian meditation. It is due to them that so many Christian people are reinterpreting their bible to find within it karma, reincarnation, yoga. Let us take this to its natural conclusion: If by the end of the century Christianity accepts karma, reincarnation and yoga, then what difference will remain between Christianity and Hinduism?

Do you think this is the strategy Hindu gurus to the West have adopted? The great deception to make the West Hindu without them realising it is happening? Indeed, many Christian intellectuals are now beginning to suspect some kind of Hindu conspiracy to replace Christianity with Hinduism.

Now lets suppose it is true that the Hindu gurus really are conspiring to replace Christianity with Hinduism and by the end of the century Christianity will be completely Hinduized, does the end justify the means? It will get rid of the biggest Abrahamic religions on this planet by stealth and the future Christians will be a lot more spiritually fulfilled.

This is a dilemma that keeps playing on my consciousness: should we be trying to convert non-Hindus to Hindus or make them better people of their religion?

Who wants to make Christians, Muslims, and Jews better bigots?

And who wants to convert like a Christian? I personally would never stoop so low. If Hindus start proselytizing, we will become exactly the same as the people we criticize.

This isn’t the strategy that Hindu gurus had in mind. Rather, its largely the strategy Western bigots have in mind to make Christianity, Islam, and Judaism seem just as viable, if not more viable, than Dharmic religions. Next thing you know, they will be running all around India, telling innocent Hindus they should convert because their religions are “similar” but “superior.”

Ridding the world of these ideologies is enough. These people have accumulated enough Karma to plague them for several millennia, provided they don’t realize the error of their ways.

With just the right push and effort (intellectual awareness and combat) by Hindus and other oppressed religious groups, these ideologies will forever be discredited and destroyed. Nothing more or nothing less needs to be done.

It is not often that easy to change religions especially after a certain age. There are some deep cultural and religious samskaras in the mind, even many people who become atheists after having deconverted from Christianity are often completely imbibed to a point that they could be qualified as Abrahamic atheists. Moreover it can be quite unbalancing for some people so I understand such statements. And what to think of people changing so easily of religions ? It can be a sign of a strong and free mind but one could argue that it can reveal a sign of temporary infatuation and taste for exoticism. One could argue that it has to pass the test of time. I do think that people like Swami Vivekananda were honest while claiming such statements and it was not politics “We are more tolerant, therefore we are superior”.

Moreover there is something very cultural in Hinduism, it is more difficult for Westerners to grasp than Buddhism which looks more structured despite the diversity. Of course at the core, it is universal but practically there are many cultural traditions, it is a jungle.

I understand the statement that one has to be born a Hindu, while it is wrong for the main part, the essence, it makes sense culturally in many cases for the external part.

Indians often told me that I understood Hinduism better than most of Hindus, or that I was more Indian, more Hindu aso. I have even been given a gotra for practical reasons and gone along well with Brahmins. But actually I know that I am culturally of mixed influence, I am mainly a Westerner culturally in this life, many Hindu traditions are quite alien to my outer personality.

Hinduism is not just Vedanta, Samkhya, Yoga. It is also samskaras (marriage, funerals…), festivals, worshipping, temples, pilgrimages, pujas, Vedic culture aso…

Philippe

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;61500]This is a dilemma that keeps playing on my consciousness: should we be trying to convert non-Hindus to Hindus or make them better people of their religion?[/QUOTE]Both are not our sva-dharma, but para-dharma. Svadharma of ours is to keep our own tradition alive and pure. I have not much against people following other religions, only that they try to misrepresent yoga and other practices from India. My only concern is for Bharata Dharma and the alduteration its facing from gurus who want to gain western disciples, from new agers or from some asana instructor with a 200-500 hour certification.

A lot of Christians do not truly understand Christianity, if they did they would not be Christian. Christianity is already a declining religion in the west. Reinterpretating Hinduism in Christian terms will only revive Christianity. Just like cancer, we do not want to feed Christianity. We only have to expose the cancer, but people are free to live with cancer if they don’t want treatment.

It is not often that easy to change religions especially after a certain age. There are some deep cultural and religious samskaras in the mind, even many people who become atheists after having deconverted from Christianity are often completely imbibed to a point that they could be qualified as Abrahamic atheists.
This is a very insightful comment. I have talked to western converts who have always been atheists, but they can still be spotted with an Abrahamic mindset. Some life long atheists even start getting interest in the Bible and Jesus after becomming Hindus. It is indeed very hard to break ties with past sanskaras.

Hinduism is not just Vedanta, Samkhya, Yoga. It is also samskaras (marriage, funerals…), festivals, worshipping, temples, pilgrimages, pujas, Vedic culture aso…
Yes vedanta, sankhya and yoga are philosophical siddhantas, but they are expressed through many religious and cultural practices of Bharata Dharma.

Who wants to make Christians, Muslims, and Jews better bigots?

And who wants to convert like a Christian? I personally would never stoop so low. If Hindus start proselytizing, we will become exactly the same as the people we criticize.

This isn’t the strategy that Hindu gurus had in mind. Rather, its largely the strategy Western bigots have in mind to make Christianity, Islam, and Judaism seem just as viable, if not more viable, than Dharmic religions. Next thing you know, they will be running all around India, telling innocent Hindus they should convert because their religions are “similar” but “superior.”

Do you not agree that although different religions disagree on all doctrines, that the universals are the same? If you talk to a good human being from any religion, be it Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Druidism, Judaism, they will share certain universals:

  1. Morality - they all are trying to become better human beings, to be more loving, compassionate, wise and devoted to the sacred. They all agree on what vice is.
  2. Ideal - they are all trying to attain liberation from the non-ideal world and attain to the ideal world(kingdom of heaven, brahman, nirvana)
  3. Soul - they all ask questions about life and purpose, identity and reality
  4. Practice - they all practice certain practices to spiritually transform

This means there is something objective here and as it is objective it enters the domain of science. It means we can study morality, ideals, soul and practice scientifically and from this science we can develop greater understanding of what they are. This is what Vedic dharma is all about. Vedic dharma does not seek to replace ones religion, but rather to make ones religion better - but not better on their own terms - but better scientifically, bringing them closer to the universal goals they are trying to reach. Indeed, is it not true that all religions today accept the authority of science?

Hence when the Vedas say, “Make the whole world Aryan” They are not converting them to the religion of Vedic dharma - but rather to make them noble human beings: noble Christians, noble Muslims etc. Even a Christian and a Muslim can follow Vedic dharma, provided they can reconcile their religions with science.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;61535]

  1. Morality - they all are trying to become better human beings, to be more loving, compassionate, wise and devoted to the sacred. They all agree on what vice is.[/quote]
    Take a better look at the Bible or the Koran to understand their perverted sense of morality.
  1. Ideal - they are all trying to attain liberation from the non-ideal world and attain to the ideal world(kingdom of heaven, brahman, nirvana)
    Then there’s also the ideal of eternal damnation for those who don’t follow their religion.
  1. Soul - they all ask questions about life and purpose, identity and reality

Soul in Christianity is not similar to Hinduism. In Christianity animals do not have souls, women only were given souls after they Chrsitians decided so in some conference. The soul in Christianity is something different from atma. It’s a seperate entity that has been given to you by God. It can also be destroyed by God. This is not compatible with Hinduism.

  1. Practice - they all practice certain practices to spiritually transform
    Practice in abrahamic religions are not nearly as advance as in Hinduism.

I think you missed the point of what I said.

I agree with you the particulars are different, but the universals are the same. Every religion has the universal of morality, but different particulars of what morality is; ditto ideals, soul and practice.

The fact is human psychology has certain universal categories which every different human group has different particular versions of. Vedic dharma is about the universal and not the particular. This is why in Vedic dharma you can have any particular ishata devta you want. This is why different sects in Hinduism agree on different morals and different practices.

Have you read this article, already?
http://www.vmission.org.in/files/pdf/radical-universalism.pdf

A truly objective look will show that abrahamic religions are not based on humanistic morals, but violently opposed to them.

Reincarnation was a common belief in the christian world until a Byzantine emperor banned it.

The gnostic christian cosmology holds several common points with Hinduism.

It is even said that Jesus himself lived in India, and studied with buddhist monks and hindu yogis.

More about this in:

“Jesus Lived in India” - Holger Kersten
"The Yoga of Jesus" - Paramahamsa Yogananda

[QUOTE=panoramix;61564]Reincarnation was a common belief in the christian world until a Byzantine emperor banned it.

The gnostic christian cosmology holds several common points with Hinduism.

It is even said that Jesus himself lived in India, and studied with buddhist monks and hindu yogis.
[/QUOTE]
http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f16/truth-about-yoga-a-article-for-discussion-724-4.html#post59377

There are no proofs but many evidences.
And as you might know, all myths portray historical facts and enclose deep truths in a symbolical fashion.

[QUOTE=panoramix;61575]There are no proofs but many evidences.
And as you might know, all myths portray historical facts and enclose deep truths in a symbolical fashion.[/QUOTE]

There are many proofs and a plethora of evidence.

As you might know, all myths have little to no basis in historical fact and largely enclose deep truths in a symbolic fashion. That, of course, is exactly the point of a myth.

Jesus, as portrayed in the Bible, never existed and never went to India.

What if Jesus was a Horus?

[QUOTE=panoramix;61575]There are no proofs but many evidences.
And as you might know, all myths portray historical facts and enclose deep truths in a symbolical fashion.[/QUOTE]

There is proof at all Jesus even existed, let alone him travelling to India.

[QUOTE=Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā;61539]Have you read this article, already?
http://www.vmission.org.in/files/pdf/radical-universalism.pdf

A truly objective look will show that abrahamic religions are not based on humanistic morals, but violently opposed to them.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for that, and as a dharmin of Vedic dharma, I follow the Vedic ethic of properly understandingly the purva paksha(the other side) So I read most of work you linked. It was well written and argued, but from the very start I noticed that Hinduism as a religion in contrast to other religions is made as an assumption and then the author with this as their main assumption proceeds to argue how radical universalism is not tenable because each differs from one another.

He says that neo-Hinduism has succubmed to the pressures of Western modernity and remoulded itself to be more acceptable in the modern world and Western rationality and skepticism. Even sincere Hindus like Swami Vivekananda have succumbled to this, though they maintained Hindism was the pinnacle of religon, they still said all religions were equal.

But has the author not himself succumbed to Western rationality and skepticism by uncritically accepting Hinduism is a religion? This concept of religion is a Western categorical concept. The author has rightly said that in India prior to neo-Hinduism in the 19th century, nobody in Vedic dharma said all viewspoints were equal and there was a lot of healthy intellectual debate between different viewpoints. It is obviously self-defeating to undermine your own viewpoint by saying it has equal veracity as another. But nobody had a categorical concept of religion either. It is equally undermining to force Vedic dharma to fit into the Western category.

The closest we have is darshana or dharma. There is Jain dharma, Buddha dharma, Charvaka dharma(I will not consider Sikhs as a separate dharma to Vedic dharma, because the differences are not significant enough) Each of these dharma are build on an epistemology(pramana) and everyone one of then accepts perception as their foundation.

Charvaka dharma accepts only perception of your 5 senses, therefore if one is charvakin one is forced to accept only materials exist and life is about feeding the body because your only valid means of knowledge is perception. Actually, it is not true Charvaka rejects inference completely, but it accepts inference only to do with what is known - it makes no inference of unknowns, including atoms.
It is very similar to modern atheism and materialism.

Buddha dharma accepts only perception of experience and only inferences to do with experience. It evaluates life in terms of desires, attachments, personality, ego and stays very clear of metaphysics. Again, if one accepts only experiece as their valid means of knowledge, one is forced to conclude that all is void, dependently-arising, all desire is suffering, there is no self.

Jain dharma accepts perception and logic, but a special kind of relativist logic where no position is absolutely true, because every position is just one angle or perspective on reality. However, this does not mean you can have an illogical position. One is bound by the conditions of their own position and thus must remain consistent.

Vedic dharma accepts perception and inference, but its main emphasis is on causal logic, to adduce the hidden cause of something based on the manifest effect. If you accept causal logic that every effect must necessarily have a cause then you are forced to conclude all the metaphysics Vedic dharma declares: karma and samsara, atman and brahman, samkhya and yoga.

No matter how much you disagree with a worldview, what one cannot deny that each of these worldviews is a systematic, self-consistent and logically constructed based on real empirical facts. This is the opposite of religion where there are no such self-consistent empirical and logical worldview, but rather opinions, untested claims and tradition. It is far closer to science, where every worldview is built up on assumptions based on empirical facts.

Christianity, Judaism and Islam are not dharmas or darshanas - they are opinion, speculation, untested claims, mythology, not a self-consistent, empirical and logical worldview. The word used in the Indian tradition for them is: mat(opinion) They are not even considered worthy of any kind of rational consideration. Many rational people feel the same now days, and would only discuss them as matters of faith and religion.

Just as Christianity, Judaism and Islam, Vedic dharma is not a religion. The closest Western concept is science to Vedic dharma, not religion. This is why Vedic dharma is universal - because science is universal.

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;61595]

Jesus never existed.[/QUOTE]

Incorrect YOUNG SIR!

I think what Neitzsche meant Scales, was that the biblical Jesus never existed. I don’t think he was denying the existence of the historical Jesus. This is a common viewpoint in theology as well.

Reinterpretating Hinduism in Christian terms will only revive Christianity. Just like cancer, we do not want to feed Christianity. We only have to expose the cancer, but people are free to live with cancer if they don’t want treatment.

But will it revive the traditional Christianity, or rather create a Hindu christianity? What would you prefer, the old dogmatic and intolerant Christians that said god created this earth, adam and eve 6000 years ago, and Jesus died for our sins and we accept his as the way, life and truth to gain entry to the kingdom of god in heaven to be saved, and if we don’t we sinners and condemned to eternal damnation - or the Christians who say this universe is eternally created and destroyed, that god is the pure consciousness within and we are all divine, Jesus was an avatar of Chirst consciousness, and we must all return to god the source to end the cycle of reincarnation by contacting the Christ within?

Unfortunately, we cannot stop Christians from co-opting Hindu doctrines and making them their own, because there is no such thing as copyright on beliefs, philosophies and idea. You can argue with a new-age Christian till you go blue in the face, but that is not going to stop them from insisting karma, reincarnation, yoga are are also there in the bible hidden as metaphor. The Muslims could not stop the Sufis from co-opting Islam or the modern day Bahai’s. The various new age groups that formed can also not be stopped. The various spin offs of Yoga: Iyengar Yoga, Vinyasa yoga, Power Yoga, Hot Yoga can also not be stopped.

The human world is as such that things get shared and modified along the way. The zero, trigonometry, algerba went from India to Europe; and from Europe came steam engines, computers, electronics to India. Europe could not claim ownership of steam engines; just as India cannot claim ownership of Vedic dharma. Whether we like it or not, Vedic dharma is going to be co-opted by the West. Just as we have co-opted many Western things. We are after all living in a global world today.

So our party-line should NOT be that Vedic dharma is India’s religion - but rather that Vedic dharma should be promoted in the world as the better alternative global culture to the 21st century. A global spiritual culture of yoga, meditation, ayurveda. The techniques of Yoga should be promoted as technologies and not religious techniques; the varna-ashrama dharma system should be promoted as a better system of economics and not a religious caste system; vedanta should be promoted as a spiritual worldview and not as a mysticism; Ayurveda should be promoted as a complete system of health management and not as a complimentary medicine.

My vision is a total replacement of the global Western categorical framework with a Vedic one.

.

[B]Buddha dharma accepts only perception of experience and only inferences to do with experience. It evaluates life in terms of desires, attachments, personality, ego and stays very clear of metaphysics. Again, if one accepts only experiece as their valid means of knowledge, one is forced to conclude that all is void, dependently-arising, all desire is suffering, there is no self.[/B]

How can it be anything other than experience which gives knowledge?
Tthe Buddha to be knower of the Vedas. And what if all is void but not like you think? Dependent originaitn is valid. All desire is suffering and this teaching of no self did not come from the lips of the Buddha. Buddha syustem is upanishad.

Vedic dharma accepts perception and inference, but its main emphasis is on causal logic, to adduce the hidden cause of something based on the manifest effect. [B]If you accept causal logic that every effect must necessarily have a cause then you are forced to conclude all the metaphysics Vedic dharma declares: karma and samsara, atman and brahman, samkhya and yoga.[/B]

What are you doing?

No matter how much you disagree with a worldview, what one cannot deny that each of these worldviews is a systematic, self-consistent and logically constructed based on real empirical facts. This is the opposite of religion where there are no such self-consistent empirical and logical worldview, but rather opinions, untested claims and tradition. It is far closer to science, where every worldview is built up on assumptions based on empirical facts.

[B]Christianity, Judaism and Islam[/B] are not dharmas or darshanas - they are opinion, speculation, untested claims, mythology, not a self-consistent, empirical and logical worldview. The word used in the Indian tradition for them is: mat(opinion) They are not even considered worthy of any kind of rational consideration. Many rational people feel the same now days, and would only discuss them as matters of faith and religion.

They are an upanishad.

Just as Christianity, Judaism and Islam, Vedic dharma is not a religion. The closest Western concept is science to Vedic dharma, not religion. This is why Vedic dharma is universal - because science is universal.

[B]The Dharma the subject.
Yoga is THE swiss army knife - your too.:l;!:. -/*\USHULD NO ALL Yor Tulz
Scientific is the [I]Aperoach.[/I]
Scriptures 4or hewlpful reminders for guideants on the trip
off you go slow carefull like the turlte or sleaping moth[/B]