Hi, everyone.
I don’t know if you guys discuss “Kundalini yoga” here by Yogi Bhajan. It doesn’t really resemble traditional yoga, it seems more like calisthenics so I don’t know why it’s called yoga. Anyway, I have a problem.
I was doing “frog pose” where we start squatting down and then lift our hips into the air repeatedly. After doing this I felt sorness in my knees. It hurts just under my kneecap and at the top of my shin. It has been in pain ever since my last kundalini class, which was about 6 months ago. I have not done much yoga since, just a few classes and mostly on my own. I’m worried that I injured myself. It seems like it put a lot of stress on my knee. Is this posture safe? I am starting to have grave doubts about kundalini yoga. Has anyone heard of something similar or know what may have happened?
I’m very familiar with Kundalini by Yogi Bhajan. And I know Frogs all too well! If your hamstrings, quads and calves are not warmed up and stretched, it can be easy to hurt your knees.
Any previous injury to knee? If not, it could be Patella Tendonitis. The Quads muscle and tendons allow the knee to straighten. If they are not properly warmed up or overused, the tendons become inflamed. Best treatment is rest and ice. Anti-inflammatory if desired. It is very important to do proper warm up before doing frogs or any other poses. Gentle stretches of the quads, hams and calves in particular.
Did you discuss this with your teacher? Does he/she allow for proper warmups?
Frogs is safe, if:
- You have no prior injury to knee
- Allow for proper warm up
Try not to judge Kundalini by what happened during Frogs. It’s a wonderfully invigorating and challenging practice. Kundalini was not taught in the west until Yogi Bhajan brought it here in 1969. It is the yoga of awareness and deeply spiritual. Poses and sequences are designed to open the chakras and tap into the energy to allow for awakening. Not to be rushed though!
Hope this helps you!
Shanti
I took up yoga about a year ago to help alleviate a bad back, as I am a landscape gardener. I went to a proper class so I was supposedly doing things in the correct manner. However in the 4th week I was doing the pough or plow position and something at the back of my neck went, I mean it was like a really bad muscle spasm and I had to get up and my neck was still in this really bad spasm. The worst thing was that when I moved my neck to the left there was this aweful grinding, crackling noise that hadn’t been there before. I was so concerned I went to the doctors and he decided to send me for an x-ray just to make sure everything was where it should be, the x-ray result was ok but the crackling and grinding was still there and there was a strange lump that had appeared at the base of my neck, the doctor said it could be a muscle knot but he wasn’t certain. Anyway to cut a long story short its nearly a year later and I still have this awful grinding sound when i turn my head to the left and back, but hardly any at all when I turn it to the right and the small springy lump type thing is still there. I havn’t or never had any pain in my neck but it feels alot tighter than it did before. I wish I had never started yoga as I am worse than I was in the first place.
Several points here, some which pertain to the OP and some which may pertain to both injury posts above.
The first things is that Yoga teaches us personal responsibility for all of our choices. That is a pretty tough row to hoe as our society tends to teach us to blame someone else, ANYONE else; for our job, being late, not having enough, being ill, etcetera. So it’s really warming to see both practitioners here taking responsibility for their choices. And while we are accepting that we chose this teacher, this style, those qualifications, and the doing of these things (along with the residue of them) it is also important not to punish or whip ourselves into a “state”.
A kundalini practice is not an alignment-based practice. And from what I’ve seen of teacher training manuals they do not emphasize safety in the physical practice, perhaps being of the belief that it is all safe to begin with. In reflecting back on my practice I did not see the foundational elements necessary for the physical practice though much of the physical practice was barely physical at all.
When there is an injury it is far more important to know what the person is actually DOING about it since it is completely inappropriate to diagnose as a teacher of yoga and an assessment over the internet is near impossible. No, it’s possible however the accuracy of it is highly questionable.
If the injury prevents the student from calming the mind and increases worry that defeats the healing process. In that instance it is often advisable to see a healthcare practitioner of one’s choosing. I prefer a holistic approach while acknowledging that others prefer pharmaceuticals and surgery. To each their own but no worrying about the injury. Get that handled.
A beginning student in their 4th class should never be moved into Halasana (or plough pose). It is not only inappropriate but also dangerous. And it should not be moved into without the same prop setup as Sarvangasana - which I’ve mentioned should not be done flat on the floor. The student who has three classes under their belt and no previous experience with asana practice has no business doing this pose when safety is paramount as their body could not possibly be “ready”.
The neck injury can likely be healed but again what is being done, how, and by whom are the question.
I have researched many things connected with neck injuries on the net and have come to some conclusions of what may have happened with my neck. Apparently when certain muscles are brought into spasm, there is some muscle damage caused, this then causes the ligaments in the neck to overcompensate for this muscle trauma by tightening up around the vertebral column. This tightening then causes friction between the ligaments and the bones of the neck vertebrae and that is causing the crackling/grinding I’m hearing. It’s very easy to think that this is bone agaist bone due to the almost crunching sound that is made when my neck is turned. To help relax the ligaments it is adviseable to do neck strenghtening exercises to strengthen the muscles and so reduce ligament tightness around the vertbrae. The past 4 weeks or so I have also developed a cracking sound at the back of my neck, similar to the sound you get when you crack your finger joints. This happens usually when I tilt my head back then when I move it forward again it cracks, it is also making my sleeping worse as i awake often to this crack sound at the back of my neck which can be abit disturbing. Having also researched this I have come to believe that the crack sound is a gas that fills the spaces in between joints, ligaments etc and when put under force the pressure causes the gas to ‘pop’ and this is what happens when you crack your finger joints. But why this has suddenly started happening in my neck i am not sure? I am a second degree reiki healer so I try to heal things on my own if I can but I realise that the neck is a very important area that can’t be neglected. As have mentioned earlier there is no pain but the area around the back of my neck has been quite tight and tensed up for sometime now, but I am hopeing in time that it will heal itself.
Google then go see Drew Stallcop. He is the only 2,000-hour certified Purna Yoga™ teacher in the UK.
[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;38830]Several points here, some which pertain to the OP and some which may pertain to both injury posts above.
The first things is that Yoga teaches us personal responsibility for all of our choices. That is a pretty tough row to hoe as our society tends to teach us to blame someone else, ANYONE else; for our job, being late, not having enough, being ill, etcetera. So it’s really warming to see both practitioners here taking responsibility for their choices. And while we are accepting that we chose this teacher, this style, those qualifications, and the doing of these things (along with the residue of them) it is also important not to punish or whip ourselves into a “state”.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not really sure what the point of this statement was. If a particular pose is unsafe then it is the responsibility of the instructor to not teach it. Right?
Doesn’t this seem like a big problem to you? Perhaps they don’t see safety knowledge as a problem since the practice was so standardized when it was first invented.
In any case, I went to see a doctor and they said it was reasonably likely that the exercises I described caused the pain that came afterwards and that I should see a physio therapist.
Lotusgirl: My joints are not swelling, apparently.
I wasn’t asking for an online diagnosis per se but was more curious if anyone had heard of this injury before, esp. from Kundalini. I also am pretty skeptical of Kundalini in general. Descriptions of it as “deeply spiritual” and “designed to awaken your chakras” sound like fluff to me. Kundalini resembles instead to me a calisthenics workout someone invented who didn’t really know what they were doing.
Hi PsyDev,
Sorry to hear you hurt yourself.
From my own experience taking the 3HO Kundalini Yoga TT and teaching for a number of years, I can confirm that Innerathlete is right when we writes that:
A kundalini practice is not an alignment-based practice. And from what I’ve seen of teacher training manuals they do not emphasize safety in the physical practice, perhaps being of the belief that it is all safe to begin with.
The “sets” (series/sequences) as they are taught by Kundalini Yoga teachers are taught exactly as they are instructed to be taught by the training manuals, with no possibilty whatsoever for deviation (other than perhaps shortening the duration of poses or movements). The safety and harmlessness of these kinds of prolonged movements is always only assumed.
You write that you are
also (…) pretty skeptical of Kundalini in general. Descriptions of it as “deeply spiritual” and “designed to awaken your chakras” sound like fluff to me.
Without meaning to discredit the entirety of the “Kundalini Yoga” system created by Yogi Bhajan, which has some authentic aspects to it, I think there are a number of issues everyone considering to involve themselves with these techniques and the international organisation behind it all should be aware of.
I’m not yet able to post URLs here, but check out the Ross Institute (rickross.com) and search for “3HO” to find a list of articles about this organisation and the techniques they teach. Then make up your own mind.
Kundalini resembles instead to me a calisthenics workout someone invented who didn’t really know what they were doing.
Based on my own experience in this group and intensively practicing and teaching their methods, I’ve come to the conclusion that the above statement is only half true: the one who invented this workout knew exactly what he was doing and I have some serious doubts about the benevolence of the motives behind this system.
Lotusgirl:
Kundalini was not taught in the west until Yogi Bhajan brought it here in 1969.
True, it was not thaught in the west, because it did not exist until then. The " Kundalini Yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan" ™ was his personal creation and does not represent an ‘authentic’ lineage within the yoga tradition. It should be considered an eclectic mix of hatha yoga practices, calisthenics, NLP, (self-)hypnosis and Sikh doctrines, topped off with a rich sauce of New Age terminology and ideology.
(Which doesn’t mean it doesn’t [I]“work”[/I]. The question should be: “what does it work towards?”)
Lotusgirl:
Quote:
Kundalini was not taught in the west until Yogi Bhajan brought it here in 1969.
True, it was not thaught in the west, because it did not exist until then. The " Kundalini Yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan" ™ was his personal creation and does not represent an ‘authentic’ lineage within the yoga tradition. It should be considered an eclectic mix of hatha yoga practices, calisthenics, NLP, (self-)hypnosis and Sikh doctrines, topped off with a rich sauce of New Age terminology and ideology.
(Which doesn’t mean it doesn’t “work”. The question should be: “what does it work towards?”)
Could you please explain? Kundalini was actually the first yoga mentioned in the ancient scriptures. And from what I’ve learned over the years in my practice of Kundalini is that Bhajan was a yoga master at age 16 and also a Hatha master. Kundalini had never been taught openly and was only passed from teacher to student. Bhajan felt that all should be able to enjoy Kundalini and thus brought it to the west. He did so to actually help those in the 60’s who were using drugs. I don’t think he could actually call it Kundalini if it was not true to the original style. It is considered the most powerful out of all the styles of yoga. What does it work towards? Awakening and enlightenment of course! It just gets you there faster.
So if you know something that I don’t, please share! Thanks!!!
Could you please explain? Kundalini was actually the first yoga mentioned in the ancient scriptures. And from what I’ve learned over the years in my practice of Kundalini is that Bhajan was a yoga master at age 16 and also a Hatha master. Kundalini had never been taught openly and was only passed from teacher to student. Bhajan felt that all should be able to enjoy Kundalini and thus brought it to the west. He did so to actually help those in the 60’s who were using drugs.
I am very familiar with everything you write here- this is word-for-word the version of history as taught in the 3HO system of “Kundalini Yoga”. There is actually no evidence for any of this whatsoever other than the fact that it is mentioned as such in the 3HO Kundalini Yoga Teacher Training Manual. The only “evidence” I’ve found so far of Yogi Bhajan’s supposed mastery of yoga are some black-and-white photos of him in basic asanas. What we do know is that before emigrating to the US in 1968, YB was working as a customs officer in New Dehli. There is no authentic lineage, no actual “golden chain” of teachers (as it is popular to say in 3HO). All this is bogus, downright deception and the sad thing is that most “Kundalini Yoga” teachers are not even aware of this.
It does not take a lot of time to find out these things, all it takes is a willingness to consider, for a moment, that perhaps all is not as it seems with Yogi Bhajan and his yoga style. For example, check out the book “Stipping the Gurus” by Geoffrey Falk, Chapter 15 (might be available online).
Yes, the notions of “Kundalini” and “Kundalini Yoga” far predate the 1960’s, but the kriyas, meditations and mantras taught in the YB style are in no way authentic- they cannot be traced back to any historical source other than the idiosyncratic mind of Harbhajan Singh Khalsa himself, which is fine in itself, but quite contrary to some of the claims that were made by YB himself and now his worldwide following.
Two wonderful, thoroughly researched books I can highly recommend is “The History of Modern Yoga” by Elizabeth DeMichelis as well as “The Yoga Tradition” by Georg Feuerstein (the first is written by a proper historian, the second by an scholarly practicioner).
I believe that YBs yoga should be considered a highly eclectic and [I] thoroughly modern[/I] mix, as I said, of a number of traditional yogic excercises, NLP, self-(hypnosis), Sikhism and a fundamentally New Age cosmology and ideology. There is a lot of research that could still be done on the actual historical sources of the 3HO yoga style.
Also, the version of Sikhism as it is taught in 3HO has been criticized by Sikh authorities on a number of occassions- it even contradicts traditional Sikh doctrine in a number of fundamental ways. Moreover, as you are no doubt aware, Yogi Bhajan claimed for many decades to have been awarded the title “Siri Singh Sahib” and appointed the Administrative Authority for Sikhs in the Western Hemisphere. This claim has also been refuted time and time again by officials.
I don’t think he could actually call it Kundalini if it was not true to the original style.
I’m afraid he could and did.
It is considered the most powerful out of all the styles of yoga. What does it work towards? Awakening and enlightenment of course! It just gets you there faster.
Again, what evidence is there to back this up- other than the purely anecdotal? Yes, I know from my own experience that this style of yoga is powerful in the sense that it can rapidly produce some dramatic effects, altered states of consciousness, bliss etc., but I think that anyone involved in this style of practise and/or teaching should do some basic research into sources that are not created within the 3HO framework. They will tell a fundamentally different story.
But don’t take my work for it- all is out in the open now and has been for quite some time. (Really, check out the site I mentioned in my first post, rickross.com and search for “3HO”. They have an entire page devoted to this yoga style and the organisation behind it. There’s a lot of stuff to go through- but I believe it will be worth it. It will teach you a lot that no 3HO teacher trainer will have ever mentioned).
I don’t have any hidden agenda with this- I’ve been through the 3HO teacher training, gave classes for a number of years, made some dramatic lifestyle changes etc., but came to the personal conclusion that there is something fundamentally flawed, even “unhealthy” in this system- the hurt knee is unfortunate, but will probably heal- but 3HO can do other types of damage to you that will not heal so easily…
love,
NK
@NK
Thank you for the above information. I find it very interesting to say the least. I went to the website you recommended and was horrified to hear some of things people shared. Some very disappointing info about Bhajan and his ‘excesses’ and mistresses. But I do try to look at both sides and there are many honest, devoted kundalini practitioners and teachers out there. But the above info is very upsetting and of concern.
With that being said, I think one can practice Kundalini, either in its original Hindu form (Kundalini Tantra) or its branded form, Kundalini as taught by Yogi Bhajan in a relatively safe manner. I’ve never been a follower of Bhajan and really know little about him, other than what I have read. In its original form, Kundalini has very few postures. Mainly they are seated postures. It is suggested, in its original form, to have practiced Hatha yoga for several years as a means of preparing the body. So going into Kundalini such as Yogi Bhajan’s without proper study and practice of Hatha can and is likely to be injurious. I totally agree.
I incorporate specific asana’s into my vinyasa practice that are aimed at opening the chakras, etc. Some are Bhajan based, some are not. In addition, I use BOF, meditation, mudras, bandhas and chants. I always make sure I am adequately warmed up before beginning.
Once again, thank you for bringing up this darker side of what should be a wonderful practice. Appreciated.
@psyDev: sorry for hijacking your thread. How’s your knee doing?
It makes sense to take a balanced approach to these things, and I think you’re absolutely right that there are plenty of wonderful KY teachers and practicioners out there. That’s been my experience as well.
Unfortunately, it’s also my experience that critical, independent thinking and research is not at all appreciated nor encouraged within this organization and that we’re basically told to accept their views and versions as truth.
For example, when inquiring into certain matters by asking questions that (however remotely) might have appeared to be critical of doctrine, I was told, on several occasions “not to think too much” or that “these are questions of the mind, they cannot be truly answered” etc.
Of course, this is somewhat inherent to these types of organizations. My main problem with, and my main reason for distancing myself from this practice is the fact that there is quite a bit of deception at the heart of it. No matter how well-intentioned, warm and friendly these people may be- the fact remains at at the centre of this fruit, there is poison, as a lot of different sources have conclusively shown, I believe.
The fact, for example, that you are using YB techniques in your personal practice and mixing it with techniques from other traditions, would absolutely horrify a lot of KY teachers. One of my teacher trainers told me in no uncertain terms that if I would do this, I would not only “destroy the purity of the teachings”, but become “very sick” as well. I could tell that she was not kidding.
My apologies also. Hope your knee is doing better. Let us know what you decide with regards to Kundalini. And in answer to your original question, yes, injuries like that can occur, especially in the knee area due to over use, improper warm up and perhaps an undiagnosed injury you weren’t aware of.
@ Zebedy
I too am a level 2 Reiki Healer. Have you had much success with helping people through pain and stress? You can private message me so we don’t continue to hijack this thread.
@ NK
You can also PM me if you’d like to discuss this further. Your insight fascinates me with Kundalini and I’d like to hear more. Thanks.