Media, Political Correctness and Religious Debate

Namaste,

Surya Deva has on several occasions stated that we “cannot afford to be politically correct” when it comes to debates on religion and spirituality (SD: correct me if I’m wrong). Within the scientific community, a bad paradigm is replaced by a new and better one. At this point in time, in line with what SD and others (Nietzsche for one) holds, I feel this should also be the case for religion and spirituality. This brings me to the topic of this thread:

Today I listened to a radio programme broadcasted on the Swedish equivalent of the BBC. The essence of the programme is that ordinary people can call in to discuss any topic of choice. Since the suicide bombing in Stockholm a few weeks ago (luckily no one died except the bomber), the issue of religious fanaticism has been actualized in the media and public spheres alike, however seemingly within the paradigm of being “politically correct”.

In this particular show there was a man calling in to argue why the Quran is a text in which fanatics can find support for horrible actions, especially against Jews and Christians. In order to argue for his position, the man calling in wanted to cite directly from the Quran. However, the host prevented him from doing so, claiming that “this is not the place” to do so.

My questions are:

  • Where is the place, then, to discuss these issues? Do we have to keep these debates on anonymous Internet forums in front of a limited audience (like this place)?
  • Why can’t we cite religious text to show their inadequacies, and irrationalities in public contexts?
  • Why do the media, political representatives and people in general feel a need to equate all religions?
  • Public service media strive for objectivity, then why didn’t the host allow the man to cite the Quran?

:confused:

Wowowoowowowoww. Finally someone that sees sense!! Omg!!! I…i…i can’t believe this!

To answer your questions

  1. That is the one problem with society today. We are so buried under false hopes and PC that we don’t know what we really want to do. We just keep putting the problem aside and hoping that it solves itself. These issues need to be addressed NOW and ameliorated NOW before it overtakes us all and causes more harm than good.

  2. Sigh* Because people like to live under the fantasy of religious equality, toleration, and Universalism when the reality is far from otherwise (especially in the West, where white hyporcrites go around claiming equality and toleration when they themselves are Western supremacists and Christianized bigots. cough Indra cough* deva cogh flexpengcoughuin).

  3. Do they equate? Really? Most of the time, they are saving their own skins from being pursued by religious fanatics and in the West, most media indirectly claims the superiority of Christian values and religion.

  4. They strive for objectivity. HAHAHHAAHHAAH. Giggles* Probably because he didn’t want his house to get bombed that night (or probably because he might lose popularity).

Namaste Seeker,

I am glad you brought up the comparison I gave between religion and science. The history of science is the history of theories rising and falling. A theory is developed, it remains for a while, then it gets falsified eventually and replaced by a new theory. The new theory is a development over the older one and hence we accept it. This is true in all sciences, whether they be the hard empirical sciences or the soft social sciences. Through science our knowledge in all areas of research has developed(physics, biology, chemistry, geology, psychology, sociology etc) and so has our technology. It cannot be denied that we are far more scientifically and technologically developed than the ancient Greeks, Arabs and Romans.

But for some reason religion is granted immunity from having to face the same tests and trials that science does. It is justified simply on the basis of faith. But is that really a justification? Can I simply say anything I want and justify it by appealing to the argument from faith. No, of course not. Still every claim I make is subject to being tested and can be falsified. Many statements made in Abrahamic religious scriptures already stand falsified today. In which case it stands to reason that these scriptures are not inerrant, but on the contrary the early speculations of primitive people from a time and place that today is just distant history. Since then, humanity has developed considerably and made remarkable progress. Therefore the Abrahamic religion is not at all relevant to the world of today. It is a vestige of a primitive past.

However, there are vested political interests in maintaining the Abrahamic religion and its ideology. Still the world today is seen through the historical and cultural prism of the Abrahamic religions. Most people believe in the Abrahamic ideology which legitimates such institutions such as oligarchies(the few controlling the many), beliefs like man has is born condemned/greedy/evil and the promotion of conflict/competition between chosen ones and non-chosen ones. In modern times these ideologies manifest in the form of capitalism, the belief that man is a consumer and the promotion of competition and survival.

This is why it is necessary to criticise the Abrahamic religion and not just sit idle and allow it to continue to perpetuate. We must get rid of this outdated system of civilisation and replace it with a modern and scientific system of civilisation if we want to progress. As long as we have one foot in the past and one foot in the present, we will not be able to march into the future.

Many statements made in Abrahamic religious scriptures already stand falsified today.

There is a huge difference between Islam and Christianity.

Give an example of a statement that is “falsified.”

One must only get rid of an old system of thought if they have a new one to replace it. This is the classical argument against the revolution concept in marxism. Although it is true that capitalism is a highly unfair, exploitative and dehumanizing system which has its own seeds of destruction inherent within it, it is still the best system we have today and until we do not have a replacement we cannot be rid of it. Similarly, we need a replacement of an old system of civilisation with a new system of civilisation that ensues progress. But there is absolutely no need to reinvent the wheel when the wheel already exists. Such a system already exists and it is the dharmic system of India.

It is easy to see for any honest historian and rationalist that the dharmic system of India has produced remarkable levels of prosperity. India had an approx 33% share of the GDP of the world from the year 1AD to 10AD, the highest that any country has had in history. It had huge industy(in ancient times Indian goods were exported all over the world and enjoyed legendary status for their high quality) in shipbuilding, textiles, spices, steel, diamonds and gems etc. It had a highly vibrant academic and litrary culture, which had universities, schools, colleges, hospitals. The contributions this culture made to shaping science, technology, art, philosophy, mathematics is immense.

It thus stands to reason that the dharmic religion is already consistent with science and technology. It is not at odds with it as the Abrahamic religion is. It is evidently a system that leads to high civilisation and progress. Now the next question that we need to ask is simply how high is that civilisation and how progressed. Evidently, if our civilisation today is ahead of the dharmic civilisation of the past, then we have nothing to learn from it.
But on the contrary we find that everything that comes down to us from the dharmic civilisation is of a superior standard:

The medical and healthcare systems are superior. Yoga and Ayurveda are highly sought after in the world for the great benefits they produce, which have been scientifically verified through several clinical studies. The methods used in Yoga are being adopted in our most cutting edge phenomenological sciences and leading scientists themselves are praising the systems. Ayurveda has also undergone many clinical trials in its effiacy in fighting diseases that modern medicine stuggles with, such as arthiritis, diabetes, heart diease and evidence shows Ayurveda has a higher effiacy. It has also been used in fatal diseases like cancer and aids.

The scientific methodology and scientific theories are superior. The pramana scientific method of perception, inference and phenomenological research where perception is used only to collect initial data and thereafter only pure scientific reasoning is far superior to the hypothetica-deductive method of modern science. While, modern scientific theories are constantly getting falsified, Hindu scientific theories are constantly getting verified. Whenever modern science discovers something new, it turns out it was already known to the Hindus(atoms, quantum fields, observer effects, mind and matter interactions, AI, other dimensions, OBES, past life memories)

To date the best texts written on psychology is Patanjali’s Yogasutras.
To date the best text written on physics is Kapila’s Samkhya sutras
To date best text written on linguistics is Panini’s Asthayadhi
To date the best text written on prosody is Pingalas Chandashastra
To date the best text written on medicine is the Charaka Samhita

These are the views of experts in these respective fields who are familiar with their works. Thus it stands to reason these are not the works of a primitive people, but the works of a highly advanced scientific people. The dharmic religion is the religion of a highly advanced scientific people, and therefore it should be religion of the scientific world of today.

I have never heard of “THE Abrahamic religion.” There are three religions that I know of called “Abrahamic,” and they are very different.

To date the best texts written on psychology is Patanjali’s Yogasutras.
To date the best text written on physics is Kapila’s Samkhya sutras
To date best text written on linguistics is Panini’s Asthayadhi
To date the best text written on prosody is Pingalas Chandashastra
To date the best text written on medicine is the Charaka Samhita

These are indisputable facts, or the opinions of an internet poster?

These are indisputable facts. The most thorough analysis of the mind, its structure and contents and dynamics has been done by Patanjali. He foreshadows many concepts in modern pschology such as psychodynamic, learning, cognitive and transpersonal psychology.

Similarly, the other names I mentioned are unparalleled. Kapila analyses the entire nature of matter from the most apparent level of the continuum of physical matter to mental matter into 49 levels of matter(modern physics is still only at the level of physical matter and has no concept of mental matter) He is able to explain the dynamics of the causal relationship between matter and mind and how matter evolves. Kapila foreshadows many in modern physics such as quantum fields, virtual particles, observer effect and cybernetics and AI.

Each of these works I have described are par excellence. In the case of Panini You will not meet a linguist worthy of being called so, who has not heard of Panini. Panini foreshadows everything about modern linguistics and modern linguistics is heavily based on rehashing of his work.

I think what is unfortunate about you is that you are only aware of what the Abrahamic world has produced. I am both aware of what Abrahamic world and the dhamric have produced. I do not have a myopic view of human civilisation. I have been fortunate enough to have learned about both systems of thought and appreciate the differences, similarities and the merits and demerits.

Did I say you were wrong? I just would like to know how you are certain, and if there are authorities who would agree.

And the “Abrahamic world” is not one world. Islam and Christianity are worlds apart.

[QUOTE=thomas;46514]These are indisputable facts, or the opinions of an internet poster?[/QUOTE]

This is just more Hindu fundamentalist VHP extremist crap. Ignore him.
(he thinks he’s a “free thinker” but he’s just another Hindutva ideologue wacko.)
& don’t worry if he denies it, just read his posts, you’ll see Hindutva dogma through & through :smiley:
Nietzsche is much the same

You are correct. Although Western mainstream media might think they strive for objectivity, I also believe they are indeed promoting Christian values most of the time. In fact, as a Westerner, I experience that most Western people (including outspoken atheists) live their lives according to Christian believes. It certainly seems as if Christianity is not only the dominant religion in the West, but also the dominant culture in the West. And, to stay on topic for this discussion, the media does not seem to question this apparent state of irrational normality.

I somewhat agree here. It is very, very interesting how well Christianity fit into the system of capitalism. This is well argued for by both Weber and Marx (although in completely different ways and with opposing predispositions). It is equally interesting how bad Buddhism and Hinduism fits with the capitalist mode of thinking (see e.g. the twin verses in [I]The Dhammapada[/I] or most passages in [I]The Bhagavad Gita[/I]).

[QUOTE=thomas;46511]There is a huge difference between Islam and Christianity.

Give an example of a statement that is “falsified.”[/QUOTE]Namaste Thomas,

I cannot speak for SD, but I believe he means that some of the fundamental beliefs within the Abrahamic religions have been scientifically falsified (such as geocentricism) whereas Eastern religions have by historical fact been proven to be more consistent with science (e.g. the current paradigm within physics). And also that some of the Abrahamic values and ‘ways of life’ have been considered obsolete by the human community itself (including Christians) (e.g. questions regarding homosexuality, paganism etc).

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;46512]To date the best texts written on psychology is Patanjali’s Yogasutras.
To date the best text written on physics is Kapila’s Samkhya sutras
To date best text written on linguistics is Panini’s Asthayadhi
To date the best text written on prosody is Pingalas Chandashastra
To date the best text written on medicine is the Charaka Samhita[/QUOTE]

Thanks for reminding me of why I don’t come here anymore. Complete and utter gobbledygook on a stupendously grand scale.

What Christian values does the “Western mainstream media” promote? A few examples?"

I somewhat agree here. It is very, very interesting how well Christianity fit into the system of capitalism. This is well argued for by both Weber and Marx (although in completely different ways and with opposing predispositions). It is equally interesting how bad Buddhism and Hinduism fits with the capitalist mode of thinking (see e.g. the twin verses in [I]The Dhammapada[/I] or most passages in [I]The Bhagavad Gita[/I]).

I don’t see how Hinduism couldn’t mesh with a capitalist mindset. Does not a man deserve the fruit of his labors, whether they be for good or ill?
(& renunciation shouldn’t be forced upon anyone, it has to be voluntary)
Besides the fact that Varna is supported by many core Hindu holy texts from the Vedas down to the Bhagavad-Gita and is in complete support of division of labor, as it’s reinforced not only socio-politically but also scripturally.
& as far as I know, at least Indian Buddhism never disputed the Varna system in & of itself.

[QUOTE=Indra Deva;46546]What Christian values does the “Western mainstream media” promote? A few examples?"

I don’t see how Hinduism couldn’t mesh with a capitalist mindset. Does not a man deserve the fruit of his labors, whether they be for good or ill?
(& renunciation shouldn’t be forced upon anyone, it has to be voluntary)
Besides the fact that Varna is supported by many core Hindu holy texts from the Vedas down to the Bhagavad-Gita and is in complete support of division of labor, as it’s reinforced not only socio-politically but also scripturally.
& as far as I know, at least Indian Buddhism never disputed the Varna system in & of itself.[/QUOTE]Namaste Indra Deva,

On your first remark I believe one of the most obvious examples is heterosexual monogamy as it is one of the single most common themes in Hollywood movies for example. Marriage, patriarchalism, sin, the family-institution and “being a decent Christian” seem to be hegemonies (for good or for bad) promoted by Western mainstream media in general, and conservative American media in particular. Although it should be noted that this is my subjective interpretation, not based on systematic analysis.

On your second remark: yes I was thinking about the disconnection from the fruits of labour and selfless action promoted by Eastern religions (as capitalism requires quite the opposite mindset from these main values in Hinduism and Buddhism). And I had in mind Weber’s [I]The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism[/I] and also the passage on religion in Marx’s [I]Das Capital[/I] (the chapter on Commodity Fetishism if I’m not mistaken) when thinking about how Christianity and capitalism seem to fit very well.

Note also that the promotion of division of labour and capitalism is not the same thing.

[QUOTE=theseeker;46550]Namaste Indra Deva,

On your first remark I believe one of the most obvious examples is heterosexual monogamy as it is one of the single most common themes in Hollywood movies for example. Marriage, patriarchalism, sin, the family-institution and “being a decent Christian” seem to be hegemonies (for good or for bad) promoted by Western mainstream media in general, and conservative American media in particular. Although it should be noted that this is my subjective interpretation, not based on systematic analysis.[/quote]

Wait, are you including entertainment with news media? What definition of “media” are you using?

On your second remark: yes I was thinking about the disconnection from the fruits of labour and selfless action promoted by Eastern religions (as capitalism requires quite the opposite mindset from these main values in Hinduism and Buddhism). And I had in mind Weber’s [I]The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism[/I] and also the passage on religion in Marx’s [I]Das Capital[/I] (the chapter on Commodity Fetishism if I’m not mistaken) when thinking about how Christianity and capitalism seem to fit very well.

Note also that the promotion of division of labour and capitalism is not the same thing.

Yes, but you must admit that division of labor, which Hinduism fully supports, is a vital component of Capitalism, correct? As is the rights of the Individual? (that an individual cannot be a means to an end? but is an end in & of himself?) and that while selfless action is praised in Hinduism, the accumulation and enjoyment of wealth, even great wealth, is also supported?

[QUOTE=Indra Deva;46554]Wait, are you including entertainment with news media? What definition of “media” are you using?

Yes, but you must admit that division of labor, which Hinduism fully supports, is a vital component of Capitalism, correct? As is the rights of the Individual? (that an individual cannot be a means to an end? but is an end in & of himself?) and that while selfless action is praised in Hinduism, the accumulation and enjoyment of wealth, even great wealth, is also supported?[/QUOTE]I include both news and entertainment into the category of “mainstream media”. Sorry for the confusion. My position in the matter still stand though.

And yes, capitalism [B]is[/B] a particular kind of division of labor. Historically though, capitalism has not promoted the “rights of the individual” but rather the rights of [B]some[/B] individuals, i.e., capitalists. Be sure, that capitalism collapses without the production of surplus value, and as we all know, surplus value presupposes exploitation of labor power. When Marx wrote [I]Das Kapital[/I], the exploitation was local, today it is global (thai kids are making your shoes mate). Furthermore, an entire strand of philosophers - the critical theorists - have since the beginning of the last century argued for the “false consciousncess” and the illusion of freedom inherent in the system of capitalism. So basically, I’m not convinced that capitalism promotes the true freedom of the indivdual. The caste system is another type of division of labor, and in this context it seems to me that a well functioning caste system seem to better promote indivdual freedom and spiritual growth.

[QUOTE=thomas;46514]These are indisputable facts, or the opinions of an internet poster?[/QUOTE]

Answer

[B]OPINION[/B]

I somewhat agree here. It is very, very interesting how well Christianity fit into the system of capitalism. This is well argued for by both Weber and Marx (although in completely different ways and with opposing predispositions). It is equally interesting how bad Buddhism and Hinduism fits with the capitalist mode of thinking (see e.g. the twin verses in [I]The Dhammapada[/I] or most passages in [I]The Bhagavad Gita[/I]).

Astute observation.

I think the best way to literally see the difference between Abrahamic world and dharmic world is to compare the Sumerian civilisation with the Indus valley civilisation. It will be noted that while the Sumerian civilisation have a system of society where power is centralized to the few, in this case the priest that enforce their rule of law on the masses and justify it through religious ideology created by the priest themselves. The priests both own the means of production and the capital and exploit the masses. The masses own nothing and live in poverty as slaves for the ruling class. The ruling class of the priests have themselves glorified by having huge palaces and monuments built in their honour.

In contrast, the Indus valley civilisation have a system of society where power is decentralized and distributed across society. It is found in the Indus valley that almost everybody has the same amentities, they live in standardized houses, with toilets, plumbing, drinking well, kitchens with ovens and a courtyard, very similar to middle class society of today. It is found that there are complex divisions of labour, but rather than this being divided alongside relationships of a ruling class and ruled class, it is divided according to functional needs of society, with each person contributing to the functioning of society. No monuments have been found(such maybe have been considered unnecessary use of capital)

It is easy to see how well capitalism fits into the Sumerian civilisation and how badly it fits into the Indus valley civilisation. The differences become very clear if we compare the religious scriptures of these respective civilisations, which you have noted yourself. The old Jewish religion forms in the Sumerian civilisation, and it is found in the OT that tribalism is the main theme of Sumerian civilisation. It consists of groups and individuals constantly competing for power. These different groups and individuals worship different gods and have different languages, but through a gradual process of war and conquest, a dominant group emerges and their god and language becomes dominant. This dominant group then imposes its rule of law on the others and all institutions in their world promote this rule of law. Even at the level of ordinary social interaction.

The Hindu religion forms in the Indus valley civilisation and it is found in Hindu scriptures that dharma is the main theme of Indian society. Dharma is the notion that there is an intrinsic and natural order to the being of something which defines its function. As a functional society, there is no dominant class per se, but rather all individuals and groups in society serve a function to maintain dharma. Therefore, rather than competition, it is cooperation that is the main value of this society. Each individual and group accepts their function as their duty and their work then becomes an extension of their being. There is no individual doership in this society as each individual sees their work as necessary to maintain dharma and thus one is detached from the fruit of labour.

There is a dharma for everything in this society. The dharma of a physician is to treat and cure his/her patients, to be well versed in the science of medicine, biology and chemistry and to have compassion towards their patients. The dharma of a husband is to earn a living for his family, to look after his wife and children and keep them happy. The dharma of a wife is to manage the home, to nuture both her children and her husband. The dharma of a child is to respect his/her parents and look after them in their old age. The dharma of a student is to study, to be keen and observant and to obey his/her treacher. The dharma of a teacher is to impart education, to test the student, to have compassion for the well being of the student. These dharmas are still widely influencial today and are considered ideals in Indian society.

There is ultimately a dharma all humans share which is human dharma. That is to think rationally, to be loving and compassionate and to aspire towards the divine. Interestingly, human dharma is indeed defined as divine. The true nature of all human beings is godly.

It is easy to see how badly capitalism fits into the dharmic world. Hence, why in the Western world the dharmic world gets villified. In almost all sociology and religion courses in Western education the horrors of the caste system are bespoken, as if it is required reading. The truth is that by demonizing the “other” one attempts to legitimate their own system. Why would the Western Abrahamic capitalist world want to villify the Eastern Dharmic world?

Correct me if I’m wrong here. I know you as quite an idealist Surya Deva. But here you are basically saying that the mode of production, the material organization of a society would create what Durkheim called “organic solidarity” (everyone realizing their duty and staying loyal to society for the benefit of a greater community: a bus driver being happy with his job because he is transporting other people to their jobs and thus contributing to society). In short, you seem to argue for the position that ideas (the things of heaven) are secondary to the material (earthly matters). Are you a materialist SD!? :stuck_out_tongue:

To me, some of these dharmas go hand in hand with core Christian values: e.g. family, the role of the genders. As the “seeker” I am, please enlighten me into the grade to which Hindu scriptures actually promote these values. I’m very curious of the matter.