[QUOTE=thomas;46612]Six million women burned at the stake?
That’s a good one, and totally false.
But did you know that Christians were made into human torches in the arenas in Rome?
And thank you for the compliment, but I do not consider myself to be a “good Christian,” but one barely hanging in there. There are many good Christians, though.[/QUOTE]
Just ask him for a real historical citation. I dare ya 
[QUOTE=theseeker;46555]I include both news and entertainment into the category of “mainstream media”. Sorry for the confusion. My position in the matter still stand though.
And yes, capitalism [B]is[/B] a particular kind of division of labor. Historically though, capitalism has not promoted the “rights of the individual” but rather the rights of [B]some[/B] individuals, i.e., capitalists. Be sure, that capitalism collapses without the production of surplus value, and as we all know, surplus value presupposes exploitation of labor power. When Marx wrote [I]Das Kapital[/I], the exploitation was local, today it is global (thai kids are making your shoes mate). Furthermore, an entire strand of philosophers - the critical theorists - have since the beginning of the last century argued for the “false consciousncess” and the illusion of freedom inherent in the system of capitalism. So basically, I’m not convinced that capitalism promotes the true freedom of the indivdual. The caste system is another type of division of labor, and in this context it seems to me that a well functioning caste system seem to better promote indivdual freedom and spiritual growth.[/QUOTE]
how can a caste system with no mobility (as per scriptural decree) promote individual freedom?
I wonder if there were six million people alive when that supposedly happened.
And I wonder which saint “ordained” someone to be burned at the stake.
List of Peolpe burned as heretics
Victims of the Christian Faith
[QUOTE=Indra Deva;46615]how can a caste system with no mobility (as per scriptural decree) promote individual freedom?[/QUOTE]Correction: I said a “well functioning caste system”
It appears the death toll in the witch trials has been exaggerated by early scholars:
http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/remembrance/_remembrance/00000082.htm
Nonetheless, the death toll reported is stil significantly high up to 100,000 people killed, out of which 75% overall were women. This happened throughout Europe and was offictionally conducted by the Church and ordered by the pope.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;46638]This happened throughout Europe and was offictionally conducted by the Church and ordered by the pope.[/QUOTE]
Recently?
This article seems to provide a good detailed analysis of the witch trials and the death toll:
http://www.gendercide.org/case_witchhunts.html
The most dramatic [recent] changes in our vision of the Great Hunt [have] centered on the death toll," notes Jenny Gibbons. She points out that estimates made prior to the mid-1970s, when detailed research into trial records began, “were almost 100% pure speculation.” (Gibbons, Recent Developments.) “On the wilder shores of the feminist and witch-cult movements,” writes Robin Briggs, “a potent myth has become established, to the effect that 9 million women were burned as witches in Europe; gendercide rather than genocide. [See, e.g., the witch-hunt documentary “The Burning Times”.] This is an overestimate by a factor of up to 200, for the most reasonable modern estimates suggest perhaps 100,000 trials between 1450 and 1750, with something between 40,000 and 50,000 executions, of which 20 to 25 per cent were men.” Briggs adds that “these figures are chilling enough, but they have to be set in the context of what was probably the harshest period of capital punishments in European history.” (Briggs, Witches & Neighbours, p. 8.)
Brian Levack’s book The Witch-Hunt in Early Modern Europe arrives at roughly similar conclusions. Levack “surveyed regional studies and found that there were approximately 110,000 witch trials. Levack focused on recorded trials, not executions, because in many cases we have evidence that a trial occurred but no indication of its outcomes. On average, 48% of trials ended in an execution, [and] therefore he estimated 60,000 witches died. This is slightly higher than 48% to reflect the fact that Germany, the center of the persecution, killed more than 48% of its witches.” (Gibbons, Recent Developments.)
Nonetheless, in the view of Gendercide Watch, even such a reduced and diffused death-toll should be considered “gendercidal,” in that it inflicted mass gender-selective killing on European women. Such killing does not need to be totalizing, either in its ambitions or its impact, to meet the definitions of gendercide and genocide that we use. Indeed, it is arguable that at no other time in European history have adult women been targeted selectively, on such a scale, for torture and annihilation.
Nothing of this sort ever took place in the dharmic world. Even the remotest similarity I can think of is the practice of sati that took place, but this was a rare practice and no evidence of it has been found prior to the Muslim invasion of India. The dharmic world has a history which seems to be infinitely more peaceful and civilised than the savage and barbaric history of the Abrahamic world.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;46638]It appears the death toll in the witch trials has been exaggerated by early scholars:
http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/remembrance/_remembrance/00000082.htm
Nonetheless, the death toll reported is stil significantly high up to 100,000 people killed, out of which 75% overall were women. This happened throughout Europe and was offictionally conducted by the Church and ordered by the pope.[/QUOTE]
“scholars” HA HA
What does “up to” 100,000 mean, btw? 10 or 1 would qualify, wouldn’t it? I have “up to” a million dollars in my wallet right now, don’t I?
But this “witch hunting” had nothing to do with the Catholic Church.
75,000 women vs 6 million. That’s only an exaggeration of EIGHTY TIMES, but who cares when you’re bashing the evil Christians?
But what about those “up to” 75,000. How do we know this happened and how do we know this too has not been “exaggerated” (LIED ABOUT)?
This happened throughout Europe and was offictionally conducted by the Church and ordered by the pope.
Which pope? You don’t have a copy of the alleged order you could post, do you? Surely you would not make such a serious accusation unless you had bona fide proof, and would not base it on some internet “scholar.”
Thomas, please restore my faith in Christians by being honest
Do you really turn a blind eye to the murder of tens of thousands of women in Europe by burning them at the stake or hanging them? As you do to the 32,000 men, women and children that are ordered to be murdered brutally by Moses in the OT(one of many genocides recorded in the OT)
Coming back to the original topic: Your religion stands falsified. It is evident to all rational and honest people that Christianity is a religion of immense savagary and barbarism and therefore it is not the religion of god, but the religion of men from a primitive time and place. This religion is not the religion for a 21st century progressive world. The dharmic religion is
The pope did it? or possibly the butler… Damn…where is Hercule Poirot when you need him:D
[QUOTE=thomas;46655]Which pope? You don’t have a copy of the alleged order you could post, do you? Surely you would not make such a serious accusation unless you had bona fide proof, and would not base it on some internet “scholar.”[/QUOTE]
For once Yulaw has done a good thing and brought in accurate information into a thread:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/salem/witchhistory.html
Witch killing and trials go back to the OT in Christian history. Here are excerpts from the above article:
Exodus and Leviticus, two Old Testament books that make up part of the “Law of Moses” and the primary history of the Jewish people, were written in the sixth century B. C by a Jewish writer—whose name we do not know. The books, which include the passages quoted above that assume the existence of witches and urge that they be killed, were most likely written in what is present-day Iraq during the reign of Evil Merodach, a dark time of Jewish exile, around 560 B.C. The author was most likely a priest, and might have been assisted in his work by other priests and scribes.
Circa 400 AD:
Saint Augustine of Hippo, an influential theologian in the early Christian Church, argued in the early 400s that God alone could suspend the normal laws of the universe. In his view, neither Satan nor witches had supernatural powers or were capable of effectively invoking magic of any sort. It was the “error of the pagans” to believe in “some other divine power than the one God.” Of course, if witches are indeed powerless, the Church need not overly concern itself with their spells or other attempts at mischief.
The late medieval Church accepted St. Augustine’s view, and hence felt little need to bother itself with tracking down witches or investigating allegations of witchcraft.
1208AD
Satan becomes sinister following
Pope Innocent III’s attack on Cathar heretics.
Pope Innocent III
In 1208, Pope Innocent III opened an attack on Cathar heretics who believed in a world in which God and Satan, both having supernatural powers, were at war. The Church attempted to discredit the Cathar belief by spreading stories that the heretics actually worshiped their evil deity in person. Propagandists for the Church depicted Cathars kissing the anus of Satan in a ceremonial show of loyalty to him. As a result of the Church’s sustained attacks, the public’s understanding of Satan moved from that of a mischievous spoiler to a deeply sinister force.
Mid 1400’s AD:
Many adherents of Catharism, fleeing a papal inquisition launched against their alleged heresies, had migrated into Germany and the Savoy. Torture inflicted on heretics suspected of magical pacts or demon-driven sexual misconduct led to alarming confessions. Defendants admitted to flying on poles and animals to attend assemblies presided over by Satan appearing in the form of a goat or other animal. Some defendants told investigators that they repeatedly kissed Satan’s anus as a display of their loyalty. Others admitted to casting spells on neighbors, having sex with animals, or causing storms. The distinctive crime of witchcraft began to take shape.
1484 AD
Pope Innocent VIII and Malleus Maleficarum
Pope Innocent announced that satanists in Germany were meeting with demons, casting spells that destroyed crops, and aborting infants. The pope asked two friars, Heinrich Kramer (a papal inquisitor of sorcerers from Innsbruck) and Jacob Sprenger, to publish a full report on the suspected witchcraft. Two years later, the friars published Malleus maleficarum (“Hammer of Witches”) which put to rest the old orthodoxy that witches were powerless in the face of God to a new orthodoxy that held Christians had an obligation to hunt down and kill them. The Malleus told frightening tales of women who would have sex with any convenient demon, kill babies, and even steal penises. (The friars asked, “What is to be thought of those witches who collect…as many as twenty or thirty members together, and put them in a bird’s nest or shut them up in a box, where they move themselves like living members and eat oats and corn?”) Over the next forty years, the Malleus would be reprinted thirteen times and come to help define the crime of witchcraft. Much of the book offered hints to judges and prosecutors, such as the authors’ suggestion to strip each suspect completely and inspect the body to see whether a mole was present that might be a telltale sign of consort with demons, and to have the defendants brought into court backwards to minimize their opportunities to cast dangerous spells on officials.
It is blatantly clear the witch trials were done on the orders of the Church and ordained directly by the popes.
How do you plead Thomas
Another except from the article:
early to mid-1500s:
The Reformation sends kill rates up
Outbreaks of witchcraft hysteria, with subsequent mass executions, began to appear in the early 1500s. Authorities in Geneva, Switzerland burned 500 acccused witches at the stake in 1515. Nine years later in Como, Italy, a spreading spiral of witchcraft charges led to as many as 1000 executions.
The Reformation divided Europe between Protestant regions and those loyal to the Pope, but Protestants took the crime of witchcraft no less seriously–and arguably even more so–than Catholics. Germany, rife with sectarian strife, saw Europe’s greatest execution rates of witches–higher than those in the rest of the Continent combined. Witch hysteria swept France in 1571 after Trois-Echelles, a defendant accused of witchcraft from the court of Charles IX, announced to the court that he had over 100,000 fellow witches roaming the country. Judges responding to the ensuing panic by eliminating for those accused of witchcraft most of the protections that other defendants enjoyed. Jean Bodin in his 1580 book, On the Demon-Mania of Sorcerers, opened the door to use of testimony by children against parents, entrapment, and instruments of torture.
Over the 160 years from 1500 to 1660, Europe saw between 50,000 and 80,000 suspected witches executed. About 80% of those killed were women. Execution rates varied greatly by country, from a high of about 26,000 in Germany to about 10,000 in France, 1,000 in England, and only four in Ireland. The lower death tolls in England and Ireland owe in part to better procedural safeguards in those countries for defendants.
It is evident here that witch trials were conducted by both Catholic and Protestant denominations of Christianity. It is already evident it was recognised as an official crime by the pope itself and it was the Catholic church that first ordered it. It is clear from looking at the Christian history from the OT to the first witch trials that witch hunting and the ordainance to find them and kill them was present within Christian theology from the beginning itself and had sanction from scriptures.
[QUOTE=thomas;46585]Is this Islam? It’s not Christianity, for sure. You keep lumping these two diverse religions and cultures together.
And for the record, in my limited life experience in the evil Christian west, I have rarely seen a household where the woman did not rule the roost.[/QUOTE]
You are confusing secular/humanistic/democratic ideals with the dominant religion of the West. These ideas are not of Christianity no matter how ignoramuses tell you otherwise. The feminist movement in America, for example, arose more from political and societal issues than from Christian “values.” This lumping of ideologies can cause great confusion in American society today. Most foolish Americans I know (hey, guess what. They’re CHRISTIAN), for example, believe that America was founded on Christian ideals. Then I proceed to laugh at them and say, “America was founded on Enlightenment, Secular, and Humanistic ideals. These ideas were antithetical to Christianity when they were developed and are antithetical to Christianity if you recognize your religion for what it truly is. Our Founding Fathers were Deistic and not Christian. They advocated separation of Church and State. When Thomas Jefferson, the key proponent of this secularism, was elected for president, many Christians in America actually buried their Bibles or stored them away.”
[QUOTE=Yulaw;46604]Did anybody mention to you I don’t care.
I just posted applicable links bubba that is all[/QUOTE]
Applicable = anti-Hindu in your mind. Do not post spurious material that isn’t recognized by unbiased historians. The extent to which ignorant people go to these days to denounce religions they hate…witch burning in India is definitely a first for me. Perhaps its because I look at reputable sources - I don’t know for sure though…
Hey, Thomas, remember that primary document from the soldier in Pizarro’s army? Did you actually read it?
I once recall you saying that you slept through your history classes. Ahh, the irony. Perhaps if you had read up on your World/U.S History material, you wouldn’t be caught up in such a dilemma, denying unquestionable history and all.
Regarding the discussion of the so-called caste system(varna-ashrama dharma) the following article explains very accurately what the true and original form of this religion was. The article is by Gavin flood, professor of Hinduism at the Oxford Centre for Hindu studies and a prolific academic writer on Hinduism:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/concepts/concepts_1.shtml
Read the dharma, varna and purushartha section
[QUOTE=theseeker;46636]Correction: I said a “well functioning caste system” ;)[/QUOTE]
So, there’s free upward mobility in your “well functioning caste system”? and where (or in what fantasy) does it exist?
Personally, to me the varna-ashrama dharma system makes the most logical sense for how society should be organized, and I am not alone in the appreciation of this system. This system has been apprecated by many Western intellectuals. In fact part of the reason why so much propoganda was fabricated against the varna-ashrama dharma system and its carticaturization in the Abrahamic world was how many people were seeing sense in it.
It is a basic truth that the human being has many basic needs, which we all resonate with. They are the needs for wealth, knowledge, pleasure and relationships and meaning and spirituality. It then makes logical sense that the human being should be born in a society that caters to fulfilling the needs of the human being. The varna-ashrama system fulfills that by dividing life into four stages corresponding to the stages of the development of each human being. The first stage of life is education and lasts from the age of 5 to 25 (brahmacharya) where the human beings faculities are cultivated(physical strength, intellectual strength, spiritual strength) and they are instructed in the sciences(grammar, philosophy, arts etc) and later they specialise in the area that they have special aptitude for(brahmins go onto specialise in Vedic studies, kshatriyas go onto learn martial arts and administration and shudras go onto learn a vocational skill).
This education stage is important in fulfilling the basic needs for knowledge and developing character to enter the next stage of life: wordly life(grithista), which lasts from the age of 25 to 50. At this stage in life one enters an occupation that one has mastered in their education stage(brahmins enter higher Vedic studies to go onto become gurus/acharyas; ksatriyas enter the army and positions of office and shudras enter into vocations). In this phase of life one also get married and has children(except for Brahmins who maintain celibaby) in order to set up the next generation of society.
The wordly stage is important in fulfilling the basic needs for wealth, fame and pleasure. It is for this stage that the kamasutra was written, to be practiced between married couples for enjoyment. The third stage of retirements(vanaprashta) lasts from the age of 50 to 75 and is entered into when one has completed their wordly responsiblities and one can retire either into a hermitage or to live with ones grown up children and grandsons and relax. It is during this phase that one can pursue their creative side with poetry, art, music etc
The last stage of life of renunication(sanyasa) and starts from the age of 75 to 100. Then, the human being is nearing the point where at some point they will leave their body and therefore this is the stage where they must become prepared to renounce the life that they had and focus on pure spiritual development, the actual goal of their soul. They do this by retiring away from the world and going into the wilderness to be initiated into a spiritual tradition and practice for the rest of their life so they can leave their body content. The spiritual stage is fulfilling the most important need of all human beings and that is their yearning for true happiness, peace and wisdom. This is the only stage which one can enter into whenever they feel ready for it.
Now compare and contrast with our current capitalist system of society. The first stage of life education is spent with sex, drugs and rock and roll. As early as preschool our children are being exposed to this. In our schools we have to cram in vocational knowledge, but do not develop our faculties and character. We learn wrong history, wrong science and wrong everything and end up graduating from school full of wrong ideas. After that we enter into jobs we are not even suited to, we enter these jobs simply because we want to make money so we can buy things to make us happy and pay our bills and we change our jobs over and over again in search of our calling. Similarly, we change our partner over and over again in search of somebody who will make us happy, on the way creating many dysfunctional families for our future generations.
Parents and children are often end up hating each other and living separately, in later on in life become lonely and go into old age homes or sit at home watching television, waiting for it all to end. Then when death finally does come we leave this body full of regrets.
This indeed is, what High Wolf said earlier, a blasthemey! It is a completely messed up society and it no suprise that our current human condition is so depraved. We live in what from a Hindu point of view is an adharmic society(the opposite of dharma: chaos and disorder) and it reflects in everyone of our institutions.