Meditation For Individual And Social Transformation

Mindfulness Meditation
#61

Surya,

“Can you give an actual example of a lie Yogananda told”

I have.

“Yogananda’s classic autobiography is full of stories of siddhis he personally encountered and experieced himself - are you claiming his entire life story is a lie?”

No, it is not a lie. But one will have to understand that the work of a master is somewhat difficult. Not only does he have the impossible task of expressing what is inexpressible, but he also has to deal with all of the social and psychological conditionings of man which are largely his own dreams and imagination. He has to work with those standards in order to transmit his message. That is why Gautama Buddha had several times said things which were contradictory to one another, he would bend his language according to the kind of people to whom he was speaking. When he was speaking to Hindus, he used to speak of the Atman, the Self. And part of his teaching was the opposite, Anatman, no-self. Even Jesus was using his own approach, trying to pass himself off as the long-awaited messiah of the Jews. Many of the people whom he was speaking to thought that he was going to take them to some “Kingdom of God” far away in a distant paradise, but he used the same language and said, “The Kingdom of God is within you”. Like this, there are many different methods to try and make the message more accessible to others. Because the real message is not something that can be transmitted through words, and it is not the intention of a master to transmit words, but in transmitting something else which is far more fundamental which cannot be contained through words, which can only be realized through one’s own transformation. But if one is receptive enough, without saying anything, without doing anything, it strikes as a flash of lightning to the very heart. Because such a level of receptivity has not yet been awakened, now something has to be said about it, or some method is needed to bring about a certain inner atmosphere which is prepared for transformation.

Parahamsa Yogananda used many different ways to try and transmit his message. Like many others before him, he has had to used already existing terminology and traditions as a means, as well as invent some of his own devices. That is why in many of his writings, he has spoken much of Christianity, and tried to draw many parrallels between Babaji and Jesus Christ saying that “Babaji is in constant communion with Christ, and together they sound out vibrations”. This was just to make his teaching more accessible to a Western audience, his writings were created for a Western audience. Even the figure of Babaji, whom Sri Yukteswar, Lahiri Mahasaya, and Parahamsa Yogananda were speaking of, was likely just a tool for teaching invented originally by Lahiri Mahasaya to give credibility for the teachings. The same method had been used by the Theosophical Society, Madame Blavatsky, who has been declaring that she had ancient teachings transmitted to her from discarnate adepts called the “Mahatmas”. To support her claim, she provided what is known as the Mahatma Letters which were written on paper through occult means, and would appear suddenly out of thin air in handwriting. But it was not something magical, it was something which was arranged by her and others. There was a Shrine in the “Occult Room” which was connected with Blavatsky’s bedroom through a sliding panel, and it was a simple matter of depositing the letters in the panel.

She would use these kinds of tricks on several occasions to strengthen the faith of her followers, particularly in “seances” where her disciples would come together to communicate with the dead - and objects would materialize out of nothing. And the Theosophical Society was trying to use the same method on Jiddu Krishnamurti, they were trying to pass him off as the long awaited “World Teacher” which would liberate humanity from the age of it’s darkness.

So like this, there have been many occasions were certain things have simply been invented as devices to try and transmit the teachings. Parahamsa Yogananda found his own way, through the myth of Babaji and presenting Kriya Yoga in a way which would appeal to the Western mind.

#62

Surya,

“and here you are clinging onto a belief in a physical world with physical laws. Didn’t anybody tell you the latest news? There is no such thing as a physical world”

What is “real” or “unreal”, that is not my concern. What is “real” or “unreal” are just one’s own relative ideas and concepts, those words will mean whatever one wants them to mean. And the mind is such, that it can only see everything through the one-sided lenses of it’s subjectivity. Out of this, a thousand and one different philosophies and religions have been created, all with their own ideas as to what is “real” and “unreal”, and all convinced that they have come to the Truth. The fact is, regardless of what is real or unreal, that you still have to breathe through your nostrils, see through your eyes, and hear through your ears. Outside of this moment to moment awareness, there is nothing else. Life is not something that is to be thought about or philosophized, but it is to be lived. And so is Truth. It is not something intellectual, it has not to do with knowledge but with being. Once one’s consciousness is integrated with existence from moment to moment, then, setting aside all of one’s beliefs, philosophies, and ideas - you yourself are the living truth.

“Everything you have said in your videos so far is regurgitated from other teachers from past and present, who you claim to not have read. You are clearly an imposter.”

If you like.

#63

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;52793]Surya,

“and here you are clinging onto a belief in a physical world with physical laws. Didn’t anybody tell you the latest news? There is no such thing as a physical world”

What is “real” or “unreal”, that is not my concern. What is “real” or “unreal” are just one’s own relative ideas and concepts, those words will mean whatever one wants them to mean.

No, respond to what has been said and not what you think has been said. I said there is no such thing as a physical world with physical laws according to modern physics. We knew this a long time back, ever since we split up the atom and found that 99.9% of the universe is empty space, and the 0.01% consisting of particles, was later to be found to be just waves of possibility and all manifest possibilities are possiblities which we become aware of. So there is nothing physical there, sir.

It only seems physical for a reason that you reveal yourself: the mind and the senses interpreting it as something physical. You claimed to be enlightened, and you don’t even know this?

And the mind is such, that it can only see everything through the one-sided lenses of it’s subjectivity.

Not the irony in what you say, you accuse the mind of being one sided and subjective, then my friend you too have a mind, so are you not one sided and subjective the same? I find it hilarious how you accuse everybody else of making assumptions and being subjective, but you are completely free of them because you are enlightened and awakened :smiley: Listen to yourself speak.

For somebody who claims to be awakened you don’t understand the very basic axiom taught in spirituality since time immemorial: all is mind. This entire world that we perceive is a creation of the mind. Your senses first artifically split up reality into 5 major categories giving the perception of forms and colours, feelings, sounds, tastes, smells. This then get processed in your brain and organized and personalized - and hey presto you found yourself in a “physical world” interacting with “physical objects” Then, when you enter into an altered state of awareness, hey presto - you found yourself in a “dream world” interacting with “dream objects” It is even possible to trick the brain so that you find yourself in a “virtual world” interacting with “virtual objects”

There is nothing physical about the reality you perceive. It is all constructed in the mind, including your perception of your body. This notion of “physical” is nothing more than an assumption you make. What we call physical is just the waking level of awareness.

Out of this, a thousand and one different philosophies and religions have been created, all with their own ideas as to what is “real” and “unreal”, and all convinced that they have come to the Truth. The fact is, regardless of what is real or unreal, that you still have to breathe through your nostrils, see through your eyes, and hear through your ears. Outside of this moment to moment awareness, there is nothing else.

I can categorically say you are not enlightened now. All other spiritual masters have said that the sensory world we see is fake and that we need to use faculties other than our senses to go beyond the fake representation and apprehend the original. If you rely on your eyes, ears, nose etc to know what reality is, then you are no different to any other sensual people, or rather the masses and thus as just as ignorant as they are. You are definitely not an awakened person, you are fast asleep.

We have faculties beyond our senses. There is the faculty of the intellect via which we can ascertain conclusions not available to the senses. There is the faculty of intuition via which we can ascertain conclusions not available to the senses or the intellect. The very fact that you don’t know of these faculities and pay them no attention, simply shouts out that you are a complete and utter fake spiritual teacher.

I question now whether you have reached any level of spiritual attainment at all.

#64

No, it is not a lie. But one will have to understand that the work of a master is somewhat difficult.

Errr no, sorry mate you just accused Swami Yogananda Paramhansa, one of the most respected spiritual masters of all time, coming from one of the most highly esteemed spiritual traditions of all time, of lying so that he could get disciples. His classic international bestseller, “Autobiography of a yogi” is full of his life experiences. You are pretty much saying to me here he lied about all his life experiences so he get get more disciples.

I am sorry, but who are you again?

I have decided to stop reading everything you write now.

#65

Surya,

“No, respond to what has been said and not what you think has been said. I said there is no such thing as a physical world with physical laws according to modern physics.”

There is and there is not. Existence is multidimensional. And depending on where you look, you are going to find a different face.

“It only seems physical for a reason that you reveal yourself: the mind and the senses interpreting it as something physical. You claimed to be enlightened, and you don’t even know this?”

Moving beyond the physical, and the dragon rears it’s head. Moving beyond the idea of the “spiritual”, and the dragon pierces through the highest heaven. When the Truth is inexpressible, keep the stream of awareness moving without abiding anywhere.

“For somebody who claims to be awakened you don’t understand the very basic axiom taught in spirituality since time immemorial: all is mind.”

I cannot agree.

"This entire world that we perceive is a creation of the mind. "

Desiring the see one’s own reflection, one leaps into the water. It is the case, but only as far as your own experience is concerned.

In Zen, it is common for wandering disciples to seek shelter in the home of a master or a monestary before continuing on their journey. One day, three disciples happened to pass by the home of a master. They knocked on the door, and the master welcomed them.

Later on, the master overheard the disciples quarelling over subjectivity and objectivity. The master pointed to a stone and said, “There is a stone. Do you consider it to be inside your mind or outside of your mind?”

The disciple said, “In the school to which I belong, we consider everything to be an objectification of the mind. So I would say that the stone is inside my mind”.

The master laughed and said, “Your head must be feeling pretty heavy to be carrying around a stone like that”.

"It is even possible to trick the brain so that you find yourself in a “virtual world” interacting with “virtual objects”

When it has been said that the mind can only offer an interpretation of existence through the senses, that does not mean that the so called “outer” world is not there - it simply means that you are not experiencing things as they are - most of one’s experience is largely just a psychological projection. Once one’s psychological projections dissolve, everything which one has so far been considering as true will immediately shatter to it’s very foundation, one’s whole accumulation of knowledge will be found to be irrelevant. And it is not that it is going to be replaced with something else, it is just that what has always been there reveals itself to the clear-eyed.

“All other spiritual masters have said that the sensory world we see is fake and that we need to use faculties other than our senses to go beyond the fake representation and apprehend the original.”

They have offered words and descriptions just as useful devices for you to come to your own enlightenment. Otherwise, every master, if he has truly come to his awakening, has known of the sheer impossibility of transmitting the Truth through words. Truth is inexpressible, it cannot be transmitted through any of our words, descriptions, ideas, beliefs, or philosophies. But - if you remain silent about the matter, you may be doing an even greater disservice. Something must be said, only that they are all just arrows pointing towards something else entirely, they are just intended to give you a sense of the fragrance of the lotus. And the experience of the lotus flower is an entirely different thing than all of one’s words and descriptions about it. Otherwise, when one has come to a space which is not of the mind, then all of our relative ideas of the mind, of “true” and “false”, “real” and “unreal”, “eternal” and “non-eternal”, simply dissolve. This is how the mind functions - putting everything into polar opposites, but always missing the essential matter.

Seeing beyond the veil, what is left ? There is not even a particle which you can grasp into your fist.

“We have faculties beyond our senses. There is the faculty of the intellect via which we can ascertain conclusions not available to the senses. There is the faculty of intuition via which we can ascertain conclusions not available to the senses or the intellect. The very fact that you don’t know of these faculities and pay them no attention, simply shouts out that you are a complete and utter fake spiritual teacher.”

Yes, there are. But coming to one’s awakening is not a matter of coming to any conclusions. Truth is like space, so vast, boundless and immeasurable, that it cannot be forced into the boundaries of one’s knowledge. You can become the living truth as a living experience, but if you were to come to a conclusion about it, that would be to impose a limitation upon it.

#66

Surya,

“Errr no, sorry mate you just accused Swami Yogananda Paramhansa, one of the most respected spiritual masters of all time, coming from one of the most highly esteemed spiritual traditions of all time, of lying so that he could get disciples.”

If he has made use of a few useful strategies so that he could gather more disciples, such as drawing parrallels between Babaji and Jesus Christ, or speaking in a way which would appeal to Christians or members of other religions, then if he is really awakened, then there is no problem in it. He should use every means possible to spread the message of enlightenment. All too often, so many streams of enormous value have simply died out because the master could not find a suitable way to preserve the teachings, and the lineage had died with the master. What could have been a tree, blossoming with all of it’s leaves and branches, simply became a grave. In this world, which is in and has remained in a state of great darkness of unconsciousness, where suffering seems to be the only way to live, unless there are more trees and less graves, I do not see that there is going to be much hope left for man.

#67

There is and there is not. Existence is multidimensional. And depending on where you look, you are going to find a different face.

No it is not, this is like saying the mirage and the lake it is a reflection of are both two dimensions in existence. No, one is unreal and the other is real. If I look at the world through rose coloured glasses and see everything in the hue of red, does this mean there is only one hue of red or a dimension that exists where everything is red? No, it means that my perception of the world has been distorted by the rose coloured glasses. Any distortion in our sensory equipment will give us a distorted image of reality. The defect in our eye does not allow us to see into outer space, but rather produces an illusion of a sky. If I put on glasses not right not for my eyes I will give a distorted view of reality. Similarly, the mind also distorts reality.

Reality passes through 3 major filters before it gets to us: the senses, the mind and language. At any point if you affect the functioning, you get a different perception of reality. Now, what we know from science is that there is no such thing as physical and hard matter or even particles, it is just waves of possibility. Therefore, this clearly means that our view of reality is distorted. We are seeing reality through distorted equipment and because of this distorted equipment we believe we are living in a physical world of time and space, when there is no such thing really. We receive sense signals from reality, these signals are organized by the brain into spatial and temporal categories, creating the illusion of depth, space, size, length, mass, dimensions. In actual fact the sun is not 91 million miles away, it is superimposed with what is 5 inches away from you and what is 5 nanometres away from you, but it is your brain that reorganizes that to create this illusion of distance.

The very fact that I am having to tell you something which is spirituality 101 betrays the fact that you are no more awakened and enlightened than your average joe. And you talk about direct experience right? I have directly experienced objects on the molecular and atomic scale. For a while my vision had become as powerful as a microscope to see the molecular and atomic level of all objects I looked at.

Listen to me and you will learn something :wink:

#68

In Zen, it is common for wandering disciples to seek shelter in the home of a master or a monestary before continuing on their journey. One day, three disciples happened to pass by the home of a master. They knocked on the door, and the master welcomed them.

Later on, the master overheard the disciples quarelling over subjectivity and objectivity. The master pointed to a stone and said, “There is a stone. Do you consider it to be inside your mind or outside of your mind?”

This is a false question setting up a false dichotomy. When you ask somebody about their mind, you assume that they are separate from their mind. Of course they are not. It the same when you ask somebody about their ego, you assume that they are separate from their ego. I was always have to laugh to myself when somebody refers to their ego in the third person. If the ego is something other than them, then what are they? In a dream, if the Zen master asked the student the question about whether the rock was in the mind or outside the mind, the dream body would have to assume that it is outside of their mind. The truth is the entire dream world, the dream rock and the dream body are all in the mind. Similarly, the entire waking world, the waking rock and the waking body are all in the mind.

What the real question should have been is not whether the rock was in the mind or outside the mind, but rather whether the rock was inside the self or outside the self. Then the answer could have been given. Both the world, the rock, the body and the mind are all inside the Self. This includes the waking world, waking rock and waking body, dream, world, dream, rock and dream body, causal world, causal rock and causal body.

Your self is not inside the body, because if you look closely you will find not only is your self aware of the world and the rock, but it is aware of your body too. In other words, the entire world and the body is within your self.

Did your awakening not reveal this to you :wink:

Edit: Hey now, I may not be much of a Raja Yogi, but as a Jnana Yogi I I trump you. I get it loud and clear.

#69

Surya, : )

There is much truth to what you have said, I can agree with much of it.

The problem is that all too often, one drifts either to one extreme or another extreme.
There are those who clinging to the world of relativity, with all of it’s shapes and forms, and fall into error. There are those who, seeing beyond this, drift to the other extreme and cling to “Oneness”.

Whether it is the source of existence or it’s various expressions, everything in existence is of the same energy manifesting itself in various differnet ways. Outside of the ordinary, there is nothing beyond. Outside of the beyond, there is nothing ordinary. In all directions- the serpent swallows it’s own tail - there is nothing in existence which is not divine. This is why it had been said in various religions that “God” is omnipresent. This is why for the Hindus, although there are millions of “gods” and “godesses”, they are all none other than expressions of one “Brahman”. All that they are saying is that whether it is of the source of existence, or arising out of the source of existence, everything is of the same energy manifesting in different forms.

If you seek the “divine” as something separate from that which is in front of your own eyes in this very moment, then one continues seeing and yet remaining absolutely blind, hearing yet remaining absolutely deaf. Seeing the fullness and wholeness of things, there can be no dividing line in the sand between this shore and the other shore.

I am not in favor of these words, but the “relative” is the “absolute”, the “absolute” is the “relative”. But even to continue thinking of it in terms of “relative” and “absolute” - is to continue setting everything apart as though one can escape from the inescapable.

#70

“In other words, the entire world and the body is within your self”

It may be useful to see it that way, although it can also be misleading. When time and space have dissapeared, when the thousand and one things merge into one original nature - where can you put what is “within” and where can you put what is “without” ?

It is neither within, nor without, nor here nor there. There is a wonderful expression for it in jnana yoga which you have heard before - neti, neti. Thinking of things in this way may have been useful for our day to day living in the world. But our relative concepts do not apply here.

#71

There is much truth to what you have said, and I can agree with much of it.

In that case do you now concede we do not live in a physical world with physical laws of time and space and therefore siddhis whose effects go beyond the physical boundaries, such as action at a distance are in fact possible?

There are those who clinging to the world of relativity, with all of it’s shapes and forms, and fall into error. There are those who, seeing beyond this, drift to the other extreme and cling to “Oneness”.

But you still are clingnig to relativity. If you continue to maintain there is a physical dimension with physical laws of time and space you are adhering to something which does not exist, rather than accepting the truth that the only reason it appears physical is because our distorted sense equipment. It is like maintaining the mirage is real caused by an optical illusion, or the red world seen through red-glasses is real. No, these are not real, but all the results of sensory distortion. Similarly, the physical world is no more real, it is the result of sensory distortion.

The reason I could see the molecular and atomic level was simply because my my brain had tempoarily lost the distance illusion. So I could see things that were very near, one of the siddhis Patanjali mentions. So how do you explain my direct experience of this siddhi?

#72

Surya,

“beyond the physical boundaries, such as action at a distance are in fact possible”

That which is beyond the “physical” is not separate from the physical. The very word “physical” does not mean anything in itself - it is just a word. And scientists have been using the word matter with all kinds of fixed ideas without knowing what matter is, even though Einstein had only re-discovered what had been known for centuries, that time and space have no absolute existence, they are relative. And if time and space are relative, then what we are calling “matter” is also relative. And what may be “material” on one level of existence, may be something else entirely on another level. This is also why the laws of general relativity and quantum physics are diametrically opposite to one another, and yet part of the same universe, and yet the same thing manifeting in different ways.

So if you are going to speak of the “physical” and “matter”, one should be careful to use these words with any kind of fixed ideas. When I speak of the physical, I am using it as a convenient word to refer to that part of the energy of existence which is gross.

That matter is relative should not be used as an excuse however to believe all kinds of nonsense. Because with enough desire to believe, one can believe just about anything at all. If you want, you can use this as an excuse the believe that there is some God in heaven who is watching over your actions, who has sent down his only begotten Son to save humanity from it’s sins, and that there is a rebellion that has happened between Satan and God because Adam the first man, from which Eve had been created out of his rib, had eaten from a forbidden tree after being tempted by a snake which was Satan in disguise. Or, if you want, you can believe that Shiva wears a necklace of skulls and has three eyes, or that ancient belief that the whole universe revolves around the Earth.

You may cultivate millions of siddhis, but try as one may, the Earth is always going to revolve around the sun, and men are always going to be born from the womb of women. In this sense, in the world of the physical, you have to live according to it’s “laws” - whether they are “real” or not. My understanding of this is very practical and down to Earth.

“Action at a distance” is possible, but if one is interested in investigating into this area, one will have to do certain sadhana to find out how it is possible and in what way.

“But you still are clingnig to relativity. If you continue to maintain there is a physical dimension with physical laws of time and space you are adhering to something which does not exist,”

I am simply saying that whether it does or does not exist, you still have to walk on your feet. If you are really living from moment to moment, you will not be bothering yourself with these ideas of what is “relative” and what is “absolute” - you should leave that work to philosophers who can continue chasing their own tails.

#73

“The reason I could see the molecular and atomic level was simply because my my brain had tempoarily lost the distance illusion. So I could see things that were very near, one of the siddhis Patanjali mentions. So how do you explain my direct experience of this siddhi?”

If everything in nature arises out of one true nature - then why should it not be possible ?
The only problem is being able to tell the difference between what is a “siddhi”, and what is just one’s own imagination. There are ways to set them apart.

If your awareness is sensitive enough, you can hear things which may even be happening galaxies away. Everything in existence is interconnected in such a way, that even a single thought of yours may have an influence on stars and planets light years away. Just as there are so many forces influencing your being, your being also has an influence on so many forces. So to me, these siddhis may appear miraculous if you do not understand them. Otherwise, they become scientific. But even in the spiritual sciences it has always been said, for practical reasons, that even these siddhis are “illusory”, that if you cling to them as though they are eternal, one is falling into delusion. Because these siddhis are as fleeting and momentary as everything else.

#74

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;52901]
If your awareness is sensitive enough, you can hear things which may even be happening galaxies away. Everything in existence is interconnected in such a way, that even a single thought of yours may have an influence on stars and planets light years away. Just as there are so many forces influencing your being, your being also has an influence on so many forces. So to me, these siddhis may appear miraculous if you do not understand them. Otherwise, they become scientific. But even in the spiritual sciences it has always been said, for practical reasons, that even these siddhis are “illusory”, that if you cling to them as though they are eternal, one is falling into delusion. Because these siddhis are as fleeting and momentary as everything else.[/QUOTE]

I have a question for you Amir: Did you phenomenologically confirm that the Siddhis implied by Patanjali, such as walking on the water, levitation and telepathy are actually false or made-up? Or there are techniques that substantiate the anticipation of these Siddhis, making them actual skills?

#75

Well, my point is more or less what you are saying Amir. I don’t think siddhis are miracles, I think they are purely scientific phenomena based on an understanding of reality which modern science does not yet understand. Vedic science evolved like modern science is now evolving from the following stages: mechnical and relativistic(Vaiseshika), quantum(prana vidya) and mental(atma vidya/brahma vidya/yoga). The first phase of mechanical and relativistic has a realist ontology, that is a worldview that there is a physical world out there, with definite laws of time, space and causality. The second phase of quantum has a dualist ontology, that is worldview that does not consider a physical world to exist, but rather the physical woud is the result of the interaction between consciousness and original matter. The final phase of mental has an idealist ontology, that is a worldview that considers not only the physical world, but consciousness and matter to be simply part of a cosmic intelligence substance, and tapping this cosmic intelligence enables one to play with matter through purely the power of intention.

Modern science was in a mechanistic phase in 1600-1800, relativistic phase in 1800-1900, quantum phase in 1900 to today. Right now, modern science is in the infancy of the quantum phase. Now, you maintain that we still use relativity to work with macro objects and quantum physics to work with micro objects, and therefore these are two complimentary dimensions. This is wrong, and it is nothing more than propoganda by materialists and atheist scientists who still have not accepted quantum physics completely. Quantum physics goes against every fundamental assumption made in classical physics, including relativity and has experimentally falsified its predicates. Locality, reality and separabiliy are fundamental assumptions in relativity. Quantum physics has disproven every single one. Ironically, how this happened was when Einstein and his associates set up the EPR problem to challenge quantum physics. They set up a theoretical experiment to test quantum physics, and proved that quantum physics proved an absurd conclusion. That if you took two entangled pairs of particles, separared one by an exteme distance, if you affected one the other one would be affected instantaneously. This would result in information transfer faster than the speed of light and a total violation of relativity. It would also lead to the absurd result of affecting one, and affecting one that is not being acted on.

You see in the classical universe in modern science action at a distance only takes place by obeying the law of the inverse square law. That is that if you increase the distance between two objects, the strength of that force diminishes inversely by the square of that distance. This makes it impossible in the classical universe for any force to have such a magnitude that it would affect anything from millions of light years. However, this so-called absurd happening predicted by relativity was indeed shown to be real by Bell and Aspect(Bell devised the experiment to test the EPR problem, and Aspect conducted it) and the result when one particle of an entangled pair of particles was affected, the other was affected instantaneously. The following were the conclusions of the experiment:

  1. Space and time(locality or separability) do not exist(sending relativity to the dustbin)
    2 And maybe reality also does not exist without an observer(reality) (sending all of materialism to the dustbin)

In 2000’s, new experiments were devised to test for the reality part, which the Bell test did not test for specifically, but did hint at. The results came about the same: reality was experimentally disproven.

The result is the end of classical physics. The shock that has come to materialism from the last few decades is immense. It is now a dying ontology. Let it die and move on with the times to the next phase of modern science. We have now disproven the existence of a physical universe with space, time and physical laws. The new model of the universe is an infinite cosmic or information field(very similar to Vedic prakriti) from which things beginning only as pure potentiality issue forth from. Max Plank called it the matrix. Incidentally, the Gita also calls it the field. How this universal cosmic field works is the work of the scientists of the 21st century.

In Vedic terms this universal cosmic information field is called akasha(many scientists have noted the quantum field is identical to the akasha in description) and this is the key to all the siddhis Patanjali describes and all the metaphysical entities described in Yoga(subtle channels or nadis, subtle transformers or chakras, subtle forces or prana) As stated in Vedic terms this entire science is known as prana vidya(the science of subtle field) As I have pointed out to you before, we already can create the siddhis Patanjali describes using technology. We can teleport objects from one place to another using the field; we can levitate objects using the field and generate energy from it. In fact, we can also cause solid objects to pass through solid obstacles using quantum tunneling, where a physical object momentarily collapses into pure information and jumps past an object(known as quantum leaps)

So as per our current and new understanding of the universe Patanjali’s siddhis are indeed achievable by using technology at least.

#76

everything in nature arises out of one true nature - then why should it not be possible ?
The only problem is being able to tell the difference between what is a “siddhi”, and what is just one’s own imagination. There are ways to set them apart.

I tested the siddhi myself when it took place to see whether it was really happening or whether it was my imagination. I noted I could zoom my vision in and out of the objects I was seeing. I zoomed out and I could see it normal, I zoomed in a bit more, and it magnified by perhaps factor of 10. I zoomed in and it magnified by a factor of 100. The crispness and sharpness was acute. I could see every detail. I zoomed in more and I was able to see into the molecules.

Another siddhis I once accidentally experienced was when I had a brief moment of telepathy from an unknown source during a meditation. Behind my closed eyes, the colours began to change and it started to form the static you see on television, I could both hear and see it. It was very much like tuning into a channel. Then all of a sudden, I had tuned into something and I received a signal back, but it was so faint, it was as if was coming from an extreme distance. I could not control this ability, so I lost it within a few seconds of it taking place. I think I jarred the connection with my emotional reaction to what was going on.

If your awareness is sensitive enough, you can hear things which may even be happening galaxies away.

Not according to relativity you will. If something is taking place in a galaxy 100 million light years away, it will take 100 million years for me to be able to catch that signal with an artificial instrument(there is nothing in classical physics that allows for the human ear to hear certain frequenecies radiation, so even if I was around for 100 million years to hear the event, I still would not hear it(All that waiting for nothing!)

Everything in existence is interconnected in such a way, that even a single thought of yours may have an influence on stars and planets light years away. Just as there are so many forces influencing your being, your being also has an influence on so many forces. So to me, these siddhis may appear miraculous if you do not understand them.

Exactly, now you are talking. The entire universe is interconnected by a quantum field which is a massive matrix of subtle forces which operate in complete tandem. Such that it is possible for not just a signal coming from 100 million light years to be instantaneously received, but even me to hear it if I could tune in. Hence, the science of astrology where the movements of planets, solar cycles, moon cycles, galactic cycles all affect our behaviour and thoughts. Now what baffles me, now that you admit that this is possible, why do you have a problem with Patanjali’s siddhis? You admit thought does affect matter and Patanajali siddhis are simply to use the power of intention, or concentrated thought, to play around with matter.

#77

Surya,

“Now what baffles me, now that you admit that this is possible, why do you have a problem with Patanjali’s siddhis? You admit thought does affect matter and Patanajali siddhis are simply to use the power of intention, or concentrated thought, to play around with matter.”

I do not know what you mean by Patanjali’s siddhis, as I do not remember all of the siddhis he was speaking of. The mind does have an influence on the outer world, just as the outer world has an influence upon the mind. In fact, the same forces which are working everywhere in the universe are also working through man’s system - and through knowing how to access certain dimensions within which correspond to the outer world, it is possible to bring about changes in the universe, although this belongs more to occult sciences than what it is we have been speaking about.

The siddhis which have been described come from a culture which is highly imaginative, and has used imagination as a way to express certain things which would not otherwise be accessible to the intellect. It should not be assumed that all of the siddhis which are spoken of are literal - that depends upon the intention of the author rather than the reality. And if you go deep enough into your own sadhana, you will be able to discriminate which one’s are literal, and which one’s are not.

#78

Yes it is possible to have your ‘physical body’ float around as in LEVITATION. and all the other abilities are also true. These things are mentioned within pretty much every spiritual or religious system in the world not just yoga sutras.

sheesh.

But please go on thinking what ever you want this is your freedom to dig your hole. You poor devil.

and you call mukunda a liar!

funny.

SO sad.

#79

Scales,

“and you call mukunda a liar!”

“Yes it is possible to have your ‘physical body’ float around as in LEVITATION.”

Whatever has yet to enter into one’s own direct experience should not be believed, regardless of who says it. But even if one accepts that “levitation” of the human body through the mind is possible, I do not see what you are going to do with such a useless thing, or how it is going to bring you to a direct insight into the root causes of one’s sufferings. It has no relevance at all, unless one is suffering from a certain lust for power. And whether one is lusting after things in the outer world, or lusting after things in the inner world, it makes no difference at all. The reason why one is clinging to such ideas is simply because life as it is, with all of it’s ordinaryness, has become so empty and hollow - that one needs to seek some kind of dream as a substitute, as an escape from reality.

Once, a Zen master was speaking to an assembly. In the assembly, was a disciple who had been trained by another master of the Tendai school. The master was speaking in such a way, that the disciple became jealous and made a noise.

The master said, “Who has made that noise?”

The disciple said, “I have. And I have listened to what you have been saying. I come from a school in which my master was able to stand on one sit of the river bank, and on the other side a disciple held up a paper, onto which my master signed the name of Amida Buddha. Can you do such a thing? What is your miracle ?”

The master said, “That may be a miracle for the fox which you are familair with. My miracle is, when I am hungry, I eat. When I am tired, I sleep.”

“These things are mentioned within pretty much every spiritual or religious system in the world not just yoga sutras”

It does not matter what other religions or traditions have said. One has been far too dependent upon borrowed knowledge rather than functioning out of one’s own intelligence, in fact there is not even a single thought or emotion which is your own. Everything that has entered into one’s mind has been gathered from the outside, but only very rarely does one ever come to an insight which arises from one’s innermost being. When one is speaking, one rarely speaks with one’s own voice.

Enter into your own depths upon depths and ignite your own eye on the forehead.

#80

I give up Amir.

Now you are accusing yet another well established spiritual master of being a liar, because they have reported these siddhis, which you have not experienced. You are telling me I am lying about the siddhis I have directly experienced, and yet you keep talking about how the best knowledge is by direct experience.

Basically your direct experience is real, everybody else’s is fake. There is a word for people like you in spiritual traditions, and I am too polite to say it. But here is a clue: It’s one of the tarot cards.

End of discussion.