Meditation For Individual And Social Transformation

Mindfulness Meditation
#81

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;53088]Scales,

“and you call mukunda a liar!”

“Yes it is possible to have your ‘physical body’ float around as in LEVITATION.”

[B]Whatever has yet to enter into one’s own direct experience should not be believed, regardless of who says it. But even if one accepts that “levitation” of the human body through the mind is possible, I do not see what you are going to do with such a useless thing, or how it is going to bring you to a direct insight into the root causes of one’s sufferings. It has no relevance at all, unless one is suffering from a certain lust for power. And whether one is lusting after things in the outer world, or lusting after things in the inner world, it makes no difference at all. The reason why one is clinging to such ideas is simply because life as it is, with all of it’s ordinaryness, has become so empty and hollow - that one needs to seek some kind of dream as a substitute, as an escape from reality. [/B]

Once, a Zen master was speaking to an assembly. In the assembly, was a disciple who had been trained by another master of the Tendai school. The master was speaking in such a way, that the disciple became jealous and made a noise.

The master said, “Who has made that noise?”

The disciple said, “I have. And I have listened to what you have been saying. I come from a school in which my master was able to stand on one sit of the river bank, and on the other side a disciple held up a paper, onto which my master signed the name of Amida Buddha. Can you do such a thing? What is your miracle ?”

The master said, “That may be a miracle for the fox which you are familair with. My miracle is, when I am hungry, I eat. When I am tired, I sleep.”

“These things are mentioned within pretty much every spiritual or religious system in the world not just yoga sutras”

It does not matter what other religions or traditions have said. One has been far too dependent upon borrowed knowledge rather than functioning out of one’s own intelligence, in fact there is not even a single thought or emotion which is your own. Everything that has entered into one’s mind has been gathered from the outside, but only very rarely does one ever come to an insight which arises from one’s innermost being. When one is speaking, one rarely speaks with one’s own voice.

Enter into your own depths upon depths and ignite your own eye on the forehead.[/QUOTE]

The point wasn’t whether its useless or of use, or irrelevant, or you need to come to awakening first or whatever other one note dribble you take your precious time to write up.

The point is - holm skillet. The point is I know it’s possible.
Do I need to do it. No. But I KNOW it can be done.

Thats the point.

#82

I couldn’t resist after seeing the emboldened text.

High Wolf asked him a few posts back whether it his direct experience that Patanjali’s siddhis are fake or made up. And now he says this:

Whatever has yet to enter into one’s own direct experience should not be believed, regardless of who says it.

So how the hell did he have a direct experience of Patanjali making the siddhis up? Did he go back in time and see Patanjali laughing out loud on how many people he is going to fool.
How the hell did he have a direct experience that Yogananda, Ramakrishna, Mukutunda was lying?

There should be a spiritual fraud team to root out these imposters.

#83

Surya,

"So how the hell did he have a direct experience of Patanjali making the siddhis up? Did he go back in time and see Patanjali laughing out loud on how many people he is going to fool.
How the hell did he have a direct experience that Yogananda, Ramakrishna, Mukutunda was lying? "

You should be clear about what it is you are condemning. I have never rejected the existence of siddhis, but have only said that there are a category of siddhis which simply do not exist. And the fact is that you cannot prove or disprove something which does not exist. There has never been a human being who has walked on water, changed water into wine, walked through walls, flied in the sky, or has reduced the physical body to the size of an atom. The physical body must operate in accordance with the laws of nature. A human being was not made to fly into the sky, nature has not given him the necessary instruments for that, neither has the physical body evolved for such a thing. And no amount of mental concentration is going to make your body fly in the sky. If you insist that such things are literal, then you are simply being foolish.

#84

Scales,

“The point is I know it’s possible.
Do I need to do it. No. But I KNOW it can be done”

You do not know it’s possible either, because you have accepted it on the basis of belief. Existence does not have any obligation to fulfill your beliefs, or to fit into your own view as to how things should be. Millions of people are in great misery because of this, because they are living life with this attitude that unless the universe fits into one’s own view, with one’s own expectations as to how things should be, one is unwilling to be contented with life - they have created far too many conditions for their own happiness.

#85

“How the hell did he have a direct experience that Yogananda, Ramakrishna, Mukutunda was lying?”

That is not needed. If you come to know yourself, through and through - then you are face to face with Yogananda, Ramakrishna, Muktunda, Ramana Maharishi, Gautama Buddha, Bodhidharma, Lao Tzu, and countless Buddhas. And these are all ordinary human beings.

I am not sure what siddhis Ramarishna has spoken of, but if he has spoken of the kind of siddhis which I have addressed, then he is simply, out of compassion, putting some bait so that you may become caught in it’s hook. If this can assist you towards your liberation, it is fine, such strategies may be needed in the beginning. In the Pure Land school of the Buddhists- they all believe that by chanting the name of Amitabha Buddha, that when the time of death arrives they will enter directly into the paradise of Amitabha Buddha. It is not different than the Christians who believe that by believing in Jesus, they will enter into the “Kingdom of God”. But neither Jesus, nor Amitabha Buddha exist, nor is there any paradise under their name - but such methods of devotion can be used as a skillful means towards one’s transformation. What is important is not whether something is “true” or not, but whether it can be useful. It is just like a placebo pill, the pill does not matter, what matters is the energy and the attitude that it triggers within oneself.

For most, unless something miraculous and otherworldly is presented, one is not going to be interested in the matter of enlightenment at all. It takes a being of tremendous awareness and intelligence to be contented with the ordinariness of things as they are, where the sun rises in the morning, sets in the evening, dogs bark, and grass grows in the spring. If the sages were absolutely truthful with you - you would not have been interested in what they had to say at all. In fact, it would have been found to be bitter, one would have rejected it at all costs. That is why Gautama Buddha has said that Truth is bitter in the beginning, but sweet in the end - and that which is a lie is sweet in the beginning, but will be found to be bitter in the end. Truth, if you are not ready for it, is certain to hurt because it contradicts everything that one has assumed about existence up till now.

Otherwise everything is always brighter on the other side. It does not matter which side you are standing on, but always brighter on the other side. And like a tomorrow which never arrives, the other side never arrives. And it cannot be proved or disproved, because it does not exist.

There are certain dimensions of existence which ordinarily remain outside of one’s awareness, which could be called “mystical”, but it has very little to do with the kinds of things one may be entertaining oneself with. And rather than some impossible pipe dream, they can be investigated and explored - although again, there is nothing otherworldly about it.

#86

That is not needed. If you come to know yourself, through and through - then you are face to face with Yogananda, Ramakrishna, Muktunda, Ramana Maharishi, Gautama Buddha, Bodhidharma, Lao Tzu, and countless Buddhas. And these are all ordinary human beings.

Wow, now you are putting yourself in their category. I have no more words :lol:
You have not achieived even the dirt on their feet.

I am sorry, but who are you again?

Definitely end of discussion.

#87

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;53139]Scales,

“The point is I know it’s possible.
Do I need to do it. No. But I KNOW it can be done”

[I][B]You do not know it’s possible either, because you have accepted it on the basis of belief.[/B][/I] Existence does not have any obligation to fulfill your beliefs, or to fit into your own view as to how things should be. Millions of people are in great misery because of this, because they are living life with this attitude that unless the universe fits into one’s own view, with one’s own expectations as to how things should be, one is unwilling to be contented with life - they have created far too many conditions for their own happiness.[/QUOTE]

Wrong again.

[B]I KNOW it’s possible.[/B]

I don’t know how I can make it any clearer to you.

This belief of yours, along with all the other garbage you type on here are just[I] some[/I] of the reasons I know you are a complete and utter pretender.

#88

[QUOTE=The Scales;53174]Wrong again.

[B]I KNOW it’s possible.[/B]

I don’t know how I can make it any clearer to you.

This belief of yours, along with all the other garbage you type on here are just[I] some[/I] of the reasons I know you are a complete and utter pretender.[/QUOTE]

Can you share how you know with us? The only ‘evidence’ I’ve seen is a video of a guy bouncing around on his ass claiming he was levitating.

#89

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;53175]Can you share how you know with us? The only ‘evidence’ I’ve seen is a video of a guy bouncing around on his ass claiming he was levitating.[/QUOTE]

You wouldn’t believe me.

I could also tell you how to do it - But I’m not allowed.

Rather - “they” would rather i don’t, and I understand why - so I won’t.

You also wouldn’t believe me if I told you who ‘they’ were so I won’t explain that either.

These things are kept secret for a reason. It wouldn’t take long to sit down and figure out why these things are kept secret.

No master. No real master is going to put themselves on the You Tube or any other video for that matter and show off his mad skillz.

The only people who would attempt such stupidity are posers, pretenders, or those who want attention, followers, and fame or any combination thereoff.

Every religious system. Not just one, or two, but all of them mention these ‘miraculous feats’

All the fantastical stuff people read about and scoff at.

It’s all very possible.

#90

Surya,

“You have not achieived even the dirt on their feet”

As unconscious as you are, you still see it to be a matter of acheivement.

“I am sorry, but who are you again?”

I am simply myself.

#91

Scales,

I do not know what you mean by miraculous, but if you are speaking of things which are as impossible in nature as a man not being born from the womb of a woman, or transforming a mountain into a loaf of bread, then such things are certainly miraculous because they do not exist.

Otherwise, there are things which may appear to be a “miracle” simply because it extends beyond the boundaries of one’s present understanding. Thousands of years ago, it may have been supernatural for one to see a flash of lightning in the sky, it was the work of gods. Today we know very well that it is not the work of gods or some otherworldly phenomenon, it is something absolutely scientific. And even today, things which expand beyond the boundaries of what is “scientific” is bound to be seen as miraculous. But for one who has a penetrating vision into the matter, it is still scientific and in tune with nature. To me, being able to create certain changes in the outer world simply as a by product of imagination and concentration, is as ordinary as anything else. If one wants, one can just through a single word, or just through a single gesture, or even without saying or doing anything, spell a disaster or a blessing. And it is not based on belief, there are methods to explore into these dimensions. But they have almost nothing to do with the work of liberation. And most people who tamper with something beyond one’s control are bound to become entangled in the process, unless one is totally aware, it only leads towards a deeper and deeper unconsciousness. Nature is not something that can be controlled, it is like a wild spirit which you cannot grasp into your fist. And to have absolute control over nature is just like an ant trying to conquer the force of the whole ocean. And if one has come to a certain wisdom, in the first place one is not going to be interested in meddling with such things. The reality is that those who are clinging to the idea of developing siddhis are simply like children seeking entertainment.

“Every religious system. Not just one, or two, but all of them mention these 'miraculous feats”

That does not mean they are correct. Truth is not a matter of strength in numbers. If that is the case, then the whole humanity is awakened.

#92

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;53189]Surya,

“You have not achieived even the dirt on their feet”

As unconscious as you are, you still see it to be a matter of acheivement.

“I am sorry, but who are you again?”

I am simply myself.[/QUOTE]

“They” are recognized for their spiritual position and work. This is what he meant - but you already knew that.

If you didn’t want to be recognized for whatever it is you pretend you are - you wouldn’t put yourself on the you tube blithering on there or here - about something you read - but i already knew that.

Also. zen masta

Everyone is conscious.

DER.

To say someone is unconscious, especially if your are having a conversation with them is . . .

Really.

Really.

Dumb.

:???:

#93

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;53190]Scales,

I do not know what you mean by miraculous, but if you are speaking of things which are as impossible in nature as a man not being born from the womb of a woman, or transforming a mountain into a loaf of bread, then such things are certainly miraculous because they do not exist.

Otherwise, there are things which may appear to be a “miracle” simply because it extends beyond the boundaries of one’s present understanding. Thousands of years ago, it may have been supernatural for one to see a flash of lightning in the sky, it was the work of gods. Today we know very well that it is not the work of gods or some otherworldly phenomenon, it is something absolutely scientific.

“Every religious system. Not just one, or two, but all of them mention these 'miraculous feats”

That does not mean they are correct. Truth is not a matter of strength in numbers. If that is the case, then the whole humanity is awakened.[/QUOTE]

I’ve already explained myself.

If you can’t understand then thats your problem.

Perhaps your too ‘unconscious’ to figure it out?

#94

Scales,

One is simply interested in argument for the sake of argument. Your desire is not sincere, along with your attention seeking tendencies. If at a later time a fire in the belly has been awakened, then perhaps we shall speak.

#95

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;53195]Scales,

One is simply interested in argument for the sake of argument. Your desire is not sincere, along with your attention seeking tendencies. If at a later time a fire in the belly has been awakened, then perhaps we shall speak.[/QUOTE]

There is far too much comedy in these short sentences for me to bear.

LOL Thats exactly what I was thinking. Or rather what I wrote without writing which you subconsciously picked up on and projected back to me because those are precisely some of your problems. In addition to the fact that your a pretender and colossal charlatan in the making.

You see part of what the Scales does so well is to help people through their issues. I do it without really trying so hard.
You may see that upon reflection.

I enjoy how your try to turn it back on me. But those who will read the thread and possess an ounce of discrimination will see whats what.

You can not ‘beat’ me. There is no argument you can make that will stand - because I speak true words.

The Scales may seem mean and nasty some times.

You may not like to hear what he says. But he says it only for the benefit of others. yes even you.

#96

There is far too much comedy in these short sentences for me to bear.

I think that is the best way to approach Amir. He is our Yoga forum resident comedian, whose comedy sketch is him pretending to be a spiritual master to advise all of us :smiley:

Some running gags

“All must be known through direct experience, but seeing as you are not awakened like I am, your direct experience is fake” :smiley:

“Some things I know not through direct experience, but simply because I am awakened. I know for example Patanjali deliberately made up some of the siddhis to inspire the gullible seekers. I know Yogananda lied in his autobiography about all the siddhis he saw, to inspire the gullble seekers. Despite the fact that they are all dead and I was not around then, I know it 100%, because I am awakened”

“I do not believe in achivement, but I record myself making discourses, giving second hand information from books I have read which I try to make look like its all come from my direct experience, and then I go onto various forums online and post links to them to advertise my awakened self ;)”

“I believe everything is interconnected and thoughts, stars, planets etc are all connected, but I believe nothing can break the great laws of classical physics” (Subtext: Actually, I am scientifically illiterate, and do not realise that as per classical physics, it is impossible for everything to be interconnected, much less thoughts, and nor do I know quantum physics has long disproven classical physics"

Trust me, you will save yourself a lot of frustration if you just see him as a joker.

#97

The way Amir writes reminds me the people who follow Rinzai school of Zen. They are very strict in their practices, which is understandable, but what I have come to see in all Buddhist traditions is that the people who take these paths are having an ‘anticipatory spirituality,’ rather than directly experiencing it. Thus I call Buddhists indirect spiritual followers. Yes, it has benefits, but this is like allowing children to make contact with animals in zoos, rather than allowing them to make an ‘embodied’ contact with animals out in wilderness. It doesn’t surprise me why in countries like Tibet and Japan, they continue with hundreds of years of tradition, but not even one produced an enlightened Buddha so far. Clearly, something ain’t right with their tradition :rolleyes:

Even Douglas Peacock (a.k.a [I]Gruizzly Man[/I]) and Chief Seattle have a lot more spiritual quality than a Zen Buddhist self-worshipper - this is ‘you’ Amir, for I realised that you engage all the points made by Surya and Scales, save for my question I asked you several posts ago.

You are currently in anticipation of spirituality. Direct experience would stab you in the heart… go out and stand in the presence of a hungry mountain lion :wink:

#98

Surya,

“He is our Yoga forum resident comedian, whose comedy sketch is him pretending to be a spiritual master to advise all of us”

Depending on your own prejudices, you may see whatever you want to see. And witnessing your tendencies, it is my own understanding that you are far too egoistic to learn from one who has far more experience than yourself.

"All must be known through direct experience, but seeing as you are not awakened like I am, your direct experience is fake

If I have come to my awakening, it is not because I am special or unique in any way. It is simply because I have done the necessary work to come to a direct perception of one’s original nature. And tremendous effort and energy is needed to come to a transformation, it is not a sit and do nothing phenomenon. As man is, his whole system is determined to prevent such a thing from arising. It took me six years of intense asceticism, investigating into as many different methods and approaches as possible, before coming to a communion with the Way. And my work is still not complete - just as there are various depths and intensities of meditation, similarly there are various depths and intensities of so called “enlightenment”, it is an ongoing process. It is not different than a thousand petaled lotus, which continues blossoming once the season has arrived.

Somewhere in one’s mind, one has created this idea that to be awakened is somehow superior to being asleep, or that to be asleep is inferior to being awake. And what is “superior” and what is “inferior” are simply projections of one’s own mind. Depending on one’s own identifications, likes and dislikes, and innermost beliefs, one is going to have different standards as to what is “superior” or “inferior”. If you are at all interested in your own liberation, drop all this egotism and start doing the necessary work that is needed to come to your awakening. It is the function of the clear eyed to discriminate between snakes pretending to be dragons, and dragons pretending to be snakes. In the Way, whether a beggar or an emperor, jewels or dung, I make no discrimination. Whether one has ignited the first flame, whether one is just on the boundary line to the breakthrough, or whether one has already come to the space - I recognize him immediately. You are far too focused upon a million and one other things, one’s attention scattered outwardly in all directions, rather than channeling one’s attention and energy to come to to know oneself, through and through.

#99

High Wolf,

I do not follow any particular tradition or approach, Zen, Buddhism, Advaita, Samkhya, or any other stream. As far as the path is concerned, there are a million and one different skillful means in coming to one’s transformation. My approach happened to be through a combination of Tantra, Raja Yoga, and Zen.

“They are very strict in their practices, which is understandable”

While the means may be different, there is something common which is present throughout, regardless of the approach. A certain intensity and one-pointedness is needed, whether it is intensity in will or intense relaxation. This is simply because man’s programming is so rigid and stubborn, that it is not interested in anything else except working according to it’s conditioning.

“It doesn’t surprise me why in countries like Tibet and Japan, they continue with hundreds of years of tradition, but not even one produced an enlightened Buddha so far. Clearly, something ain’t right with their tradition”

There is some element of truth to it, because the moment one becomes far too entangled in a discipline, it in fact only helps to create more walls and barriers to one’s awakening, one may complicate the situation a million times fold if one is not being alert. What is needed is not simply to practice a method mechanically, as though by performing certain actions that certain results will follow, but with a certain spirit which is flowing through the discipline - which cannot be learned but only discovered. Limited to the techniques themselves, they are simply mechanical processes. And you can sit in meditation for years upon years, and remain just as unconscious and asleep as one has always been. It is not something unique to the Buddhists. In general it has always been very rare that one comes to one’s Buddhahood, it is just like finding a pearl in the desert.

If something is not working - it ordinarily has very little to do with the method itself, the hindrances do not lie in the methods, but in the disciple himself. Most of the limitations are entirely self-imposed limitations - and what we are calling a “path” is just any method which can dissolve the psychological hindrances which are preventing one’s awakening.

#100

I think Amir is not preaching, he’s just sharing his experiences… what’s wrong in that?