Dear all,
I subscribed to this Yoga forum and watched the debate in the mental development in Yogic practice.
I have written a book on it:“achieving yogamental power” which is available in Amazon.com
I have described how intricate muscle contractility requires the mind concentration and achieving a difficult stance in Yogic posture involves a great deal of neural path engagement like reticular formation, cerebellar connection and thalamo-cerebral projection to premotor and prefrontal cerebral cortex.
The whole yogic exercise needs the reticular formation to be switched on to perform and achieve expertise and continuing the exercise for long automatically sharpen the neural path which are integral path of mind power formation.
When somebody is faced with challenged in exam hall or to any mental problem he can discover to his surprise that his muscles are in contracted state. This is an evolutional response. When humans were challenged in stone age by beasts they had to face them by their muscles and mental challenge is reflected on muscles since then. Even though in modern life there is hardly any situation when muscles need to be contracted to solve the problem in exam hall or law court but the evolutional response persisted. That is why it needs to cool down and ease off . What we learn from this experience that mind tension is reflected on muscles. This is a great discovery which was made by Indian Rishis thousand of years ago.
As an intelligent move, they thought if you go in reverse direction by exploiting the muscles we can reach the training of mind to our suitability. That is the message in Yoga.
In my book I never dwealt anything supernatural or hazy way of explanation. What I have talked is everything written in the text books of ANATOMY and NEUROSCIENCE.It is scientific and with a scientic mind you can get the message behind all yogic postures.
Certain yogic postures are meant for regional specialisations but if good number of postures are practiced I hope after a course of time period an appreciable amount of mind alertness can be achieved.
So far as the discussion on HEART linking with mind, I am little hazy in understanding but there is a definite link I hope. The heart is not a separate organ , it has to withstand the load in any heavy physical exercise. If heart is ok then only the whole yogic venture can be successful.
I have discussed the relation of respiration with heart. Sometimes heart race up and down when somebody is faced with real challenge. There I have shown that respiration and heart is an integral system and intimately dependent to each other. But heart is not within our volitional control while respiration does. We can control our respiration at will. This was another discovery by Indian Yogis. The axis: mind turmoil leads to pacing up of heart beats which is reflected in respiration simultaneously. Out of those three you have the control on respiration. So the ancient Rishis devised exercises basing on respiration. Those exercises are described on PRANAYAM. here they simulate the turmoil by stopping breath for long. At first there is hopoxia–then anoxia and a self imposed dangerous situation is created when mind paces up and down in search of rescue. It may be noted that simple day to day happenings are exploited by channelising in reverse direction by those yogic postures and man is trained to face them in real life more effectively. There is nothing supernatural in it.
I dont know whether you understand my explanation but I think I have seen the Yoga in this scientific way.
Looking forward to more discussion.
Dr Atindra Datta, MBBS, MS
Professor: www.mua.edu
[quote=atindra;13513]Dear all,
I subscribed to this Yoga forum and watched the debate in the mental development in Yogic practice.
I have written a book on it:“achieving yogamental power” which is available in Amazon.com
I have described how intricate muscle contractility requires the mind concentration and achieving a difficult stance in Yogic posture involves a great deal of neural path engagement like reticular formation, cerebellar connection and thalamo-cerebral projection to premotor and prefrontal cerebral cortex.
The whole yogic exercise needs the reticular formation to be switched on to perform and achieve expertise and continuing the exercise for long automatically sharpen the neural path which are integral path of mind power formation.
When somebody is faced with challenged in exam hall or to any mental problem he can discover to his surprise that his muscles are in contracted state. This is an evolutional response. When humans were challenged in stone age by beasts they had to face them by their muscles and mental challenge is reflected on muscles since then. Even though in modern life there is hardly any situation when muscles need to be contracted to solve the problem in exam hall or law court but the evolutional response persisted. That is why it needs to cool down and ease off . What we learn from this experience that mind tension is reflected on muscles. This is a great discovery which was made by Indian Rishis thousand of years ago.
As an intelligent move, they thought if you go in reverse direction by exploiting the muscles we can reach the training of mind to our suitability. That is the message in Yoga.
I think you are mistaken and that is not what the sages thought who offered the blessings of yoga instruction
The message in yoga is about a spiritual practice for transformation and a method of awakening and expierencing your own true self. It is a spiritual science. Yoga is experienced in that mind that has ceased to identify itself with its vacillating waves of perception
In my book I never dwealt anything supernatural or hazy way of explanation. What I have talked is everything written in the text books of ANATOMY and NEUROSCIENCE.It is scientific and with a scientic mind you can get the message behind all yogic postures.
Asana is only one of 8 parts of yogascience. You are not your body
Certain yogic postures are meant for regional specialisations but if good number of postures are practiced I hope after a course of time period an appreciable amount of mind alertness can be achieved.
So far as the discussion on HEART linking with mind, I am little hazy in understanding but there is a definite link I hope. The heart is not a separate organ , it has to withstand the load in any heavy physical exercise. If heart is ok then only the whole yogic venture can be successful.
i guess you mean asana again?
health in Sanskriet is SVASTHA wich means firmly established in your own True self.
So for yogi’s true health is coming home to your Self ( quoting Mukunda)
The body is only for a short period.
I have discussed the relation of respiration with heart. Sometimes heart race up and down when somebody is faced with real challenge. There I have shown that respiration and heart is an integral system and intimately dependent to each other. But heart is not within our volitional control while respiration does.
There are yogi’s that can control both
Can you stop your breath?
Can you stop your heart?
Can you stop your mind from thinking?
We can control our respiration at will. This was another discovery by Indian Yogis. The axis: mind turmoil leads to pacing up of heart beats which is reflected in respiration simultaneously. Out of those three you have the control on respiration. So the ancient Rishis devised exercises basing on respiration. Those exercises are described on PRANAYAM.
Pranayama exercise only uses the breath but it is realy control of and directing life energy. Prana is not the same as breath
here they simulate the turmoil by stopping breath for long. At first there is hopoxia–then anoxia and a self imposed dangerous situation is created when mind paces up and down in search of rescue. It may be noted that simple day to day happenings are exploited by channelising in reverse direction by those yogic postures and man is trained to face them in real life more effectively. There is nothing supernatural in it.
I dont know whether you understand my explanation but I think I have seen the Yoga in this scientific way.
Looking forward to more discussion.
Dr Atindra Datta, MBBS, MS
Professor: www.mua.edu[/quote]
When you speak of yoga you mean asana only?
I think you are using the wrong instruments to explain yoga and only a little part of yoga. Yoga can be expierenced in that mind which has ceased to identify itself with its vaccilating waves of perception .You are trying to measure gravity with a thermomether. There are things beyond the mind. Things the mind does not know.
Just adding some thought for the discussion, but i guess we can not proof yoga with any discussion. Are we trying to proof yoga?
The truth needs no proof, we will know when its there.
with love from louise
Dear Dr,
Thank you for adding to this discussion, interesting points you have made and it is good to know there are people out there who want to scientifically proof yoga to the world as I belief there are a lot of people who need that scientific proof and who cannot just accept the Truth without proof. I always think scientific proof just confirms what the ancient rishis knew as the Truth without any proof.
About the heart: to think of the physical heart only is limiting just as it is limiting to think in terms of just the physical mind/brain. In yoga philosophy much of this is not on the physical level but on the more subtle levels of your existence. When you are on your yoga path for a while it starts to dawn upon you that you are more than just the physical aspects of your body, in fact you ARE NOT! Can you grasp this and understand the Truth behind this? This is the key to understanding yoga and your place in this vast ocean of unseen consciousness to which you will return one day. The heart is the gateway to this consciousness and it needs the mind to cultivate the awareness of this consciousness. The two are interdependent meaning the one cannot without the other.
I trust this clears this aspect about the heart a little more.
[quote=Pandara;13524]Dear Dr,
I always think scientific proof just confirms what the ancient rishis knew as the Truth without any proof.
The heart is the gateway to this consciousness and it needs the mind to cultivate the awareness of this consciousness. The two are interdependent meaning the one cannot without the other.
I trust this clears this aspect about the heart a little more.[/quote]
Namaste Pandara,
thank you for those words clarifying a lot
you have such a nice way of explaining things in a concise way
When union between the pranic and mental forces takes place the awakening of higher consiousness is there.
Those energies ( prana shakti and manas shakti) interacting that is what hatha yoga is all about
That also explains the breath as a bridge
with love and light Louise
A sceptic. Best start, in my opinion.
But you are not a beginner.
To doubt something, one needs to believe in that thing in the first place. Otherwise doubt has no meaning.
What you did, you transceeded your unrealistic expectations about these things. (mind control, focusing, concentration)
Your mindset is still: I do this, and I get that. This is good in the physical world, using the tools we have (the parts of our being subject to our will - as we are partly in control, I think you admit this) but it is not enough when we need to transcend this world.
That’s why christianity for example, talks about faith. Faith is simply, to believe that some wonder can happen, regardless of our better knowledge. Admitting, that we do not know ourselves and the world enough, to make a sound judgement about what can, and what cannot happen.
There are many things we do not know, but we accept it. How could we live if we’d always doubted everything ? But we also must realize that we accept so many thiings for the sake of our comfort, that we really are not able or entitled to judge what the world is, when we do not know a lot about ourselves.
Can you stop your heart to beat ? Can you direct your own digestion ? Could you live without air, or the earth to walk on ? What if there would not be plants, animals tp provide food ? What are you ? Who are you ?
Isn’t this total humiliation, to be born, and be under the power of so many things beyond your control ?
We, in our pride and the comfort of our artifcial physical and mental environment (materialist one) we think we have everything figured out. We don’t know crap, my friend. Tell, me, what is life ?
What makes a seed explode into a flower wearing plant, a cell divide, a bird sing ? You may come with a evolutionary theory, and you can dwell into great depths of physics, biology, aso, yet, up to this day, I have not heard anyone defining life. If we would know that, we could create life, yet, we cannot. Realizing this, is the first step. We have no clue about what moves the world around us … and yet we try to judge it.
Materialist science is nothing but an honest reaction to religion’s blind faith, built on authority. Science needs to pass this state of reaction, this state of excluding soul and spirit from the realm of existence, than it can really become science.
PS. The things you miss, are real. I have expereinced them. So, it is my word against yours, at worst, but I say, you can expereince them too, if you are willing to bear for them, wait for them, be open for them. You do not want these, though, you want comfort, you want safety. You are afraid to give up the confines of your mind. Be brave. Be a spiritual warrior … enlist to the battle you cannot win. 
[quote=atindra;13513]
Looking forward to more discussion.
Dr Atindra Datta, MBBS, MS
Professor: www.mua.edu[/quote]
Your treatise is built entirely on materialist world view charactersitic to our age.
This might suit an intellectual approach, yet, what yoga is really about is using the whole human being as a tool, not juts it’s physical body.
Materialist science is at difficulty accepting the reality of “higher” bodies, other koshas than the manomaya kosha.
A person I know, a really scientific mind, working in IT, had this idea of creating a thinking machine. So he ventured into psichology, psychiatry, biology, physiology and he was shocked by how there is really so little we actually know about ourselves. I mean, yes, there are great discoveries, and we witness in greater and greater details what complex processes, synergies, are there present in our physical body, yet the main questions are still answered by hypotetycal scenarios. Evolutionary theory is one such thing. It is mereley hypotetical, even if it seems to fit best what we see happen in the physical realm.
When I see the beastman example I smile. It is really don’t know how it did happen … of course, you might ask me, what do I think than, and I must say, I am not sure, yet now I am more and more aware of the gaps and baseless presumptions of so called science of today. In it’s efforts to remain objective, scientist refuse to see that knowledge is subjective, and cannot be separated from their own personal life. To be true, if a materialist scientis would be honest, he/she would have to come to the conclusion that thinking is futile, prone to mistakes, and suspend, not trust the whole process alltogheter.
Dear Mr Pandara,
thanks for your understanding of the form of HEART you mean. I get it now. However, my students are all in modern medicine and they ask always the physical form of heart. We have to explain in terms of physiology the experiences of heart to undergo in times of crisis. I understand the dealing of Yoga involves a great deal of realising the supernatural mental state and imagining a metaphysical thought. Now I do get it. But at the same time there are many who like to know the yogic implications by modern medicine path. It has definite benevolent path and that can be established by careful study and scientific reasoning. Attempts to cloud the reasoning by baseless thoughts as you can see in the replies of this thread is to perpetuate hazy picture to linger on . This is the hiccup in the journey to better understanding of solid scientific basis.
with regards
Dr Datta
If you could read this, perhaps you’d come to a better understanding of what I was trying to say in a much clumsier and perhaps biased way.
All my respect for your approach. I like scientific rigour and discipline, but it needs to be applied on a greater scale.
[quote=atindra;13549]to perpetuate hazy picture to linger on . This is the hiccup in the journey to better understanding of solid scientific basis.
with regards
Dr Datta[/quote]
Dear dr. datta,
there have been many scientist thinking they found solid proof,
but do we still believe the world is flat?
there is proof for things now people could not have imagened long time ago.
science also accepts proof from many experiences based on empiric proof. Why is it not so with yoga?
Same as if you try to explain love with reason you will never see the point.
what is it you are looking for in yoga?
namaste louise
Namaste Dr Datta,
What matters for me now is that there are people like you who train and teach these students of the future, your awareness will somehow manifest itself and i take great comfort in this as your awareness will affect those who come into contact with you.
[quote=louise molenkamp;13664]Dear dr. datta,
there have been many scientist thinking they found solid proof,
but do we still believe the world is flat?
there is proof for things now people could not have imagened long time ago.
science also accepts proof from many experiences based on empiric proof. Why is it not so with yoga?
Same as if you try to explain love with reason you will never see the point.
what is it you are looking for in yoga?
namaste louise[/quote]
Dear Louise,
thanks for your comments which are always negative. I have seen your utmost attempt to discredit the scientific endeavour in the journey of Yoga understanding. Being in the forum with a negative setup of mind does not augur well with the discussion atmosphere. This blogs are places where everybody will have some educative approach, learn something positive, not the untiring railing. This is absolutely UNYOGIC when students look for better educational environment. Please try to be sober and quote books or literature than your own mind.
with sincere regards
Datta
Dear Mr Pandara,
thanks for your good words.
Yesterday I was reading the translations of GITA by Eknath Easwaran where there is a good discussion on UPANISHAD in the initial pages. Actually Shri Krishna presented the Upanishad so fruitfully in Gita that we donot have to go through whole courses of Upanishad and in Upanishad has the discussions of your thoughts and approach of Yoga. Sankhya— is the place where Eknath found the modern Physics analogical views corroborated thousands of years away. This is really fantastic. They had approach similar long back. However we have to work more to unravel the truth behind and teach students in the line of modern language.
Thanks for your holding the cudgels of yoga untiringly
with kind regards
Datta
Most of this thread has degraded into debating science and claiming baseless belief as fact. Both I think can be misleading.
The absence of proof of everything else, does not confirm the improbable. And feelings, however overpowering they are can easily be manipulated (intentionally or otherwise). People have a way of seeing what they want to see, hearing what they want to hear, I suggest you all make every effort to be unbiased.
Whilst similarly, there is plenty that none of us can understand, and in everything we do we deal with incomplete information, no science is certain, much of it will continue to be re-written.
Although I must say that there have been a couple of helpful and insightful posts which are very much appreciated. Thank you.
Namate Aaron,
This is the nature of a Forum and posts like these on the net, they have a life of their own and may take any route. I think it is for the participants as well as for the originator of such a thread important to recognise this and remain unbiased in evaluating the life that the post has taken.
So may it be science or baseless belief, it doesn’t matter, somewhere out there somebody might have benefited from the content of this post and who are we then to pass an evaluation on that?
It is silly to think that there can be no agression, negativism, or critcism in debates on yoga. If I learnt something, that is the need for people to be shaken.
The natural tendency of anyone is to avoid distress, to create stability and safety. Yet this artificial safety is an illusion. We are not safe… We are not free. We are not happy. Happiness is not the balance of many illusions, but the experience of the reality behind those illusions. And because we are conditioned, and fond of our illusions (what, for us are real forces shaping our destiny), getting rid of these “illusions” is never pleasant.
It takes great honesty, and courage, and uncompromising love of truth to arrive to Reality. The Word is a double edged sword. Swords cut, and hurt.
It is the resposnabilty of the Master to know when the disciple is ready to be cut open. Otherwise it is pointless cruelty, what throws the disciple back, instead of helping him move forward. That’s why real masters are not seen. Few can bear their sight, their presence, so they are hiding. Those who are on the Way, are invisible to those who are not, simply because the latter lack the ability to asess real merit. They seek illusions, fame, power, excitement, achievement. The Way is not any of these.
PS. What yoga does is it stills all aspects of our being so through that tranquil state, Reality can make it’s appearance. Siddhis, or perfections of the mind, are still maya. We can study maya to great extents, but the ultimate goal it is it’s dissolution.
Brother aaron,
i went back and reread your original post to me this quote stood out the most.
“I have spent many years pursuing further development and understanding of my mind, can anyone tell me if these obstacles I have met are exagerated claims that can’t be realised, or truths that require a different approach to understanding, or simply require more time?”
in my life i have searched to understand the mind as well. i have gone many different paths, religion, eating, expercise, study of psychology, etc… the reason i like yoga, is with proper instruction one looks at all aspects of life.
the obsticle of us understanding the mind is that we are trying to understand what is, imho, way beyond our ability to understand in our current level of understanding. if you find a way to quiet down the mind it may end up being revealed to you. So how do you find a way to calm the mind? use your logic, find the way that seems to call you to it, and then once you choose a way let go of analyzing and questioning. Then after sincere mindless/mindful effort if it does not work, choose another path and then try to become mindless again.
the crazy thing about understanding is it only seems to come after experience, not before. Teachers say do this, this, and this and student says “i dont understand” then teacher says “stop focusing on what you dont understand and focus on what i am telling you to do” Then all the sudden, somehting clicks and student does it right and says “oh, i understand now” So how do we focus without tension? we may understand the mind once we transcend it, but i dont think we could before we transcend it.
I can appreciate it is not always an easy path. i wish you the best on yours.
we are love, we are joy, we are peace,
whether we understand it or not
brother neil
This reminds me of the parable of the man shot by an arrow and demanding to know who shot him before they took it out.
I agree with Aaron. I only trust the mind. The heart can lead me into situations that are not in my best interest. I was told to keep intellect over emotion.
[QUOTE=Aaron;12500]…
Anyway, over the years a lot of people have preached with absolute confidence of the things that can be achieved through focussing the mind.
… There are people who will say that you can achieve great physical feats (beyond your natural capabilities). Then you’ve got the yogi claims, healing energies and more.
… can anyone tell me if these obstacles I have met are exagerated claims that can’t be realised, or truths that require a different approach to understanding, or simply require more time?
[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure if Aaron is still watching his thread, so I’ll address my comments to readers in general.
Aaron seems to be trying to obtain yogic results without studying yoga. If he were to study yoga, Aaron might realize that, although the ability to focus the mind is a prerequisite, one does not achieve results in yoga simply by focusing the mind. One has to learn to work with the breath, with subtle energies, and with levels of consciousness that transcend the mind.
Aaron is also a little hazy about what it is he wants to accomplish. The yoga sutras contain many examples of results that can be obtained through the practice of samyama (I think that’s what its called). Anyway, some of the siddhis are more fantastic than others. One has to choose where he wants to focus his energy. And one has to be properly prepared in order to receive some of the more advanced teachings.
I personally was drawn to yoga after hearing about a heart surgeon who was known for performing multiple marathon surgeries on very little sleep. His secret? Yoga. So yes, I would say that yoga can be effective in producing what might be considered super-normal results.
Aaron needs to lose his aversion for yoga first of all.
Aaron,
“I’ve delved deap into the development of the mind.”
In coming to the Way, it is not a matter of developing the mind, but in moving beyond mind. But even if limited to the development of the mind, that was ones first mistake - to assume that one has delved deep into it when it is far more likely that one has just scratched the surface.
" Yoga isn’t for me, we all have our paths to walk and yoga isn’t part of mine."
As any method whatsoever which leads you towards your awakening is a method towards Yoga, that is an impossibility.
“Turning exercise into a kind of meditation. But not yogi meditation… closer to Zen.”
Zen too is a kind of yoga. The approach of Zen is to use meditation as a means towards enlightenment. It is fundamentally a kind of Raja Yoga. Any method which uses meditation as the method for the expansion of consciousness can be called Raja Yoga.
“As far as I can tell, all of the mysticism is a load of bs.”
I would like you to be aware that “mysticism” has little to do with beliefs or philosophy, it simply refers to a method for the expansion of consciousness towards a direct realization of Truth. Like yoga, any method towards this can be called mysticism. One who practices such methods is called a mystic.
“tell me if these obstacles I have met are exagerated claims that can’t be realised, or truths that require a different approach to understanding, or simply require more time?”
Exaggerated or not, as far as ones own path is concerned, these obstacles may be very real. But one should be clear - that identifying obstacles is not an analytical process. Because through analysis - all that you will have is an interpretation of the mind. What is needed is not analysis - but observation. To observe means to see things in the moment, as they are, without judgement, without forming an attachment to whatever may arise in your experience. If you observe the workings of your mind, only then can you truly detect these obstacles. They are to be recognized in daily living itself, and outside of this - all else is just pure speculation, even though some of ones speculations may have fragments of truth to it.