Mental Development from Yoga(ish) practice

I’ve got some questions, ones that I doubt will be answered satisfactorily for me (no insult intended, simply a comment about where I’m at so far) but perhaps someone here can enlighten me on this stuff.

I’m not a yogi… but my method exercise is perhaps a cousin of yoga. Yoga isn’t for me, we all have our paths to walk and yoga isn’t part of mine.
But I’ve always linked my physical exercise closely with mental development, which has always been far more important to me than the physical side. Turning exercise into a kind of meditation. But not yogi meditation… closer to Zen.

Perhaps I’m posting in the wrong place, but there are few if any correct places, so you guys and girls have to endure my out of place post.

Anyway, over the years a lot of people have preached with absolute confidence of the things that can be achieved through focussing the mind. There’s always someone who will claim anything can be achieved. I’ve never been one who has been eager to admit that anything can’t be achieved, so I’ve given it all a fair go. I’ve delved deap into the development of the mind.

As far as I can tell, all of the mysticism is a load of bs.
The mind can be trained to have great (I would even consider it possible to achieve limitless) discipline.
You can learn to be calm and focussed regardless of your surroundings.
You can possibly maintain a truly tranquil state, permanently, if you could let go of some things that I cannot.
Beyond that, which is considerable, the rest seems fictional at best.

Something tells me that I need to give examples of what I think can’t be achieved, or at least, that which I’ve not seen so much as a glimpse of. There are people who will say that you can achieve great physical feats (beyond your natural capabilities). Then you’ve got the yogi claims, healing energies and more. [U]Basically, anything that’s not already present, cannot be manufactured. Some would argue that it’s all present but dormant, but have no scientific evidence.[/U]

I wish to cause no offence in posting this, although I’m sure it will cause some offence. I’m not trying to discredit anything, I could well be wrong about a lot of things, I’m just stating barriers that I’ve come across that given the amount of effort I’ve put into unsuccesfully getting past them, have made me doubt.

I guess that’s really the question there, all of this post is as summarised as I should make that question. But although it doesn’t do it justice, I’ll summarise further: I have spent many years pursuing further development and understanding of my mind, can anyone tell me if these obstacles I have met are exagerated claims that can’t be realised, or truths that require a different approach to understanding, or simply require more time?

I expect no answer to this. But perhaps throwing the question out there will generate one.

Dear Aaron,
No offence taken here.
You want scientific evidence then? Is empirical evidence for over 3000 years significant proof for you? No? You want to find out for your self?
There simply can not be any understanding with the mind of things that are beyond the understanding. The instrument mind can only explore what it can explore. You cannot see with your ears can you? There are some things that can be explored with the heart.
What generated this answer?
Sending you love and light
Louise Molenkamp

Louise molenkamp,
Thankyou for your reply.

What you have said is possibly where I have gone off track. Heart in my opinion is another word for feelings, which are easily swayed making the opinions generated on these foundations always biased.
I’ll put some more thought into it. But I suspect that at least for now, my opinion about this wont change.

[quote=Aaron;12504]Louise molenkamp,
Thankyou for your reply.

What you have said is possibly where I have gone off track. Heart in my opinion is another word for feelings, which are easily swayed making the opinions generated on these foundations always biased.
I’ll put some more thought into it. But I suspect that at least for now, my opinion about this wont change.[/quote]

Yes there are feelings and there is more to explore with the heart than that. If you allow yourself to go off track - for a period -you might discover another road that leads to answers you want. You always have your discernment to know the difference. Or is it that you only want to explore with your mind? Heart is a nice place, find it out.
Louise

I only trust the mind. I’d be very happy to explore the “heart”, but I know from experiance it can play havoc with your life.
I hope you’re right, but basing my thoughts and consequently my actions on something that’s biased?.. Not today, but someday I’ll give it another try.

in science there is one thing and one thing only that can throw off all “evidence” and that is the unknown variable. People go to the quantam level and still recognize the unknown variable as a block to deepen their “evidence” How does anything/God/US, etc… exist? Because of the unkonwn variable. Science can explain what happened after existence existed but they cannot explain how existence came to be. So if you want to look for evidence of facts. The fact is there is no evidence except existence. The Unknown varible reigns supreme over scientific “evidence” If you can accept that then you may be able to get past the blocks of your mind.
thanks for posting
Neil

Some people are mind people and some people are heart people and the bridge that spans that great divide is only one thing: the breath.

Try to just breathe for a change in your life, you have been there before, you have just forget and needs a reminder. :slight_smile:

[quote=Aaron;12506]I only trust the mind. I’d be very happy to explore the “heart”, but I know from experiance it can play havoc with your life.
I hope you’re right, but basing my thoughts and consequently my actions on something that’s biased?.. Not today, but someday I’ll give it another try.[/quote]

Dear Aaron,
And so another day came and i realy wish all getting clear for all of us. I like the bridge thought.
I do not want you to get hurt, just to be happy and find the answers you need. The things you want to find out are not in the mind. But that is only my opinion.
What Pandara said about mind people and heart people make sense to me; so lets meet on the bridge. I like to consider both sides so i guess there are also bridge people?
The only thing i cannot get clear yet is; will someone start walking over a bridge if they dont like what is on the other side. if you consider only hurt is there and things not to be trusted? Is it not necessary to open up a bit first? Exploring the Heart is good for mind peolple as well.
Just open up a little bit for your own sake. You dont have to give away the keys or invite everybody in. Just look what you find there. I realy wish your mind can help you learn to trust again. I know some are hurt so much that they close up entirely. Find trust is important and there are some things that the mind just can not do.
Wishing you find what you need.
Just persist is the search and i am sure answers will come.
with Love from Louise

I have written a book which is available in Amazon.com and the title is:"achieving yoga mind power"
Kindly read and if possible put question to this forum

[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial]It sounds like my mind (and heart) are closer to where yours might be. I?m much more comfortable in my head and so exploring my heart is sort of a new and strange thing for me. I?ve found that if you?re a science-based, realistic thinker, or maybe agnostic or atheistic - yoga might present a different type of challenge for you. It does for me. Whether or not what you read here or are learning about yoga are ?exaggerated claims that can’t be realized? or that these [I][I]?truths [/I][/I]require a different approach to understanding or more time?..I would answer ?yes, no, maybe.? Some claims ARE exaggerated, some truths for some people CAN?T be realized for a variety of different reasons, and some truths DO require that you devote more time and understanding in order to get at them. I don?t know this for sure, but it seems logical. And logic to some ?mind people? IS truth. So maybe (being all logical here), a good place to start would be with your definition of ?truth?? [/COLOR][/FONT]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial] [/COLOR][/FONT]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial]I loved what Pandara said (and I have to say I always love what Pandara says) - that the bridge between the mind and the heart is the breath. Maybe this (our breath) is where we are, and what we are, and this is the best place to begin to find truth. That sentence even sounds too esoteric and mystical to me, but I?m a beginner to yoga so I?m not really sure I KNOW anything, but I?m old enough to know I know SOMETHING. Yes, yoga can spin you around and turn you inside out but the discoveries (aha!) are always personally very interesting. Sort of a like a scientific discovery…of the soul.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial] [/COLOR][/FONT]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial]Good luck with YOUR discovery.[/COLOR][/FONT]

Dear all,
I subscribed to this Yoga forum and watched the debate in the mental development in Yogic practice.
I have written a book on it:“achieving yogamental power” which is available in Amazon.com
I have described how intricate muscle contractility requires the mind concentration and achieving a difficult stance in Yogic posture involves a great deal of neural path engagement like reticular formation, cerebellar connection and thalamo-cerebral projection to premotor and prefrontal cerebral cortex.
The whole yogic exercise needs the reticular formation to be switched on to perform and achieve expertise and continuing the exercise for long automatically sharpen the neural path which are integral path of mind power formation.
When somebody is faced with challenged in exam hall or to any mental problem he can discover to his surprise that his muscles are in contracted state. This is an evolutional response. When humans were challenged in stone age by beasts they had to face them by their muscles and mental challenge is reflected on muscles since then. Even though in modern life there is hardly any situation when muscles need to be contracted to solve the problem in exam hall or law court but the evolutional response persisted. That is why it needs to cool down and ease off . What we learn from this experience that mind tension is reflected on muscles. This is a great discovery which was made by Indian Rishis thousand of years ago.
As an intelligent move, they thought if you go in reverse direction by exploiting the muscles we can reach the training of mind to our suitability. That is the message in Yoga.
In my book I never dwealt anything supernatural or hazy way of explanation. What I have talked is everything written in the text books of ANATOMY and NEUROSCIENCE.It is scientific and with a scientic mind you can get the message behind all yogic postures.
Certain yogic postures are meant for regional specialisations but if good number of postures are practiced I hope after a course of time period an appreciable amount of mind alertness can be achieved.
So far as the discussion on HEART linking with mind, I am little hazy in understanding but there is a definite link I hope. The heart is not a separate organ , it has to withstand the load in any heavy physical exercise. If heart is ok then only the whole yogic venture can be successful.
I have discussed the relation of respiration with heart. Sometimes heart race up and down when somebody is faced with real challenge. There I have shown that respiration and heart is an integral system and intimately dependent to each other. But heart is not within our volitional control while respiration does. We can control our respiration at will. This was another discovery by Indian Yogis. The axis: mind turmoil leads to pacing up of heart beats which is reflected in respiration simultaneously. Out of those three you have the control on respiration. So the ancient Rishis devised exercises basing on respiration. Those exercises are described on PRANAYAM. here they simulate the turmoil by stopping breath for long. At first there is hopoxia–then anoxia and a self imposed dangerous situation is created when mind paces up and down in search of rescue. It may be noted that simple day to day happenings are exploited by channelising in reverse direction by those yogic postures and man is trained to face them in real life more effectively. There is nothing supernatural in it.
I dont know whether you understand my explanation but I think I have seen the Yoga in this scientific way.
Looking forward to more discussion.
Dr Atindra Datta, MBBS, MS
Professor: www.mua.edu

[quote=atindra;13513]Dear all,
I subscribed to this Yoga forum and watched the debate in the mental development in Yogic practice.
I have written a book on it:“achieving yogamental power” which is available in Amazon.com
I have described how intricate muscle contractility requires the mind concentration and achieving a difficult stance in Yogic posture involves a great deal of neural path engagement like reticular formation, cerebellar connection and thalamo-cerebral projection to premotor and prefrontal cerebral cortex.
The whole yogic exercise needs the reticular formation to be switched on to perform and achieve expertise and continuing the exercise for long automatically sharpen the neural path which are integral path of mind power formation.
When somebody is faced with challenged in exam hall or to any mental problem he can discover to his surprise that his muscles are in contracted state. This is an evolutional response. When humans were challenged in stone age by beasts they had to face them by their muscles and mental challenge is reflected on muscles since then. Even though in modern life there is hardly any situation when muscles need to be contracted to solve the problem in exam hall or law court but the evolutional response persisted. That is why it needs to cool down and ease off . What we learn from this experience that mind tension is reflected on muscles. This is a great discovery which was made by Indian Rishis thousand of years ago.
As an intelligent move, they thought if you go in reverse direction by exploiting the muscles we can reach the training of mind to our suitability. That is the message in Yoga.

I think you are mistaken and that is not what the sages thought who offered the blessings of yoga instruction
The message in yoga is about a spiritual practice for transformation and a method of awakening and expierencing your own true self. It is a spiritual science. Yoga is experienced in that mind that has ceased to identify itself with its vacillating waves of perception

In my book I never dwealt anything supernatural or hazy way of explanation. What I have talked is everything written in the text books of ANATOMY and NEUROSCIENCE.It is scientific and with a scientic mind you can get the message behind all yogic postures.

Asana is only one of 8 parts of yogascience. You are not your body

Certain yogic postures are meant for regional specialisations but if good number of postures are practiced I hope after a course of time period an appreciable amount of mind alertness can be achieved.
So far as the discussion on HEART linking with mind, I am little hazy in understanding but there is a definite link I hope. The heart is not a separate organ , it has to withstand the load in any heavy physical exercise. If heart is ok then only the whole yogic venture can be successful.

i guess you mean asana again?
health in Sanskriet is SVASTHA wich means firmly established in your own True self.
So for yogi’s true health is coming home to your Self ( quoting Mukunda)
The body is only for a short period.

I have discussed the relation of respiration with heart. Sometimes heart race up and down when somebody is faced with real challenge. There I have shown that respiration and heart is an integral system and intimately dependent to each other. But heart is not within our volitional control while respiration does.

There are yogi’s that can control both
Can you stop your breath?
Can you stop your heart?
Can you stop your mind from thinking?

We can control our respiration at will. This was another discovery by Indian Yogis. The axis: mind turmoil leads to pacing up of heart beats which is reflected in respiration simultaneously. Out of those three you have the control on respiration. So the ancient Rishis devised exercises basing on respiration. Those exercises are described on PRANAYAM.

Pranayama exercise only uses the breath but it is realy control of and directing life energy. Prana is not the same as breath

here they simulate the turmoil by stopping breath for long. At first there is hopoxia–then anoxia and a self imposed dangerous situation is created when mind paces up and down in search of rescue. It may be noted that simple day to day happenings are exploited by channelising in reverse direction by those yogic postures and man is trained to face them in real life more effectively. There is nothing supernatural in it.
I dont know whether you understand my explanation but I think I have seen the Yoga in this scientific way.
Looking forward to more discussion.
Dr Atindra Datta, MBBS, MS
Professor: www.mua.edu[/quote]

When you speak of yoga you mean asana only?
I think you are using the wrong instruments to explain yoga and only a little part of yoga. Yoga can be expierenced in that mind which has ceased to identify itself with its vaccilating waves of perception .You are trying to measure gravity with a thermomether. There are things beyond the mind. Things the mind does not know.
Just adding some thought for the discussion, but i guess we can not proof yoga with any discussion. Are we trying to proof yoga?
The truth needs no proof, we will know when its there.

with love from louise

Dear Dr,

Thank you for adding to this discussion, interesting points you have made and it is good to know there are people out there who want to scientifically proof yoga to the world as I belief there are a lot of people who need that scientific proof and who cannot just accept the Truth without proof. I always think scientific proof just confirms what the ancient rishis knew as the Truth without any proof.

About the heart: to think of the physical heart only is limiting just as it is limiting to think in terms of just the physical mind/brain. In yoga philosophy much of this is not on the physical level but on the more subtle levels of your existence. When you are on your yoga path for a while it starts to dawn upon you that you are more than just the physical aspects of your body, in fact you ARE NOT! Can you grasp this and understand the Truth behind this? This is the key to understanding yoga and your place in this vast ocean of unseen consciousness to which you will return one day. The heart is the gateway to this consciousness and it needs the mind to cultivate the awareness of this consciousness. The two are interdependent meaning the one cannot without the other.

I trust this clears this aspect about the heart a little more.

[quote=Pandara;13524]Dear Dr,

I always think scientific proof just confirms what the ancient rishis knew as the Truth without any proof.

The heart is the gateway to this consciousness and it needs the mind to cultivate the awareness of this consciousness. The two are interdependent meaning the one cannot without the other.

I trust this clears this aspect about the heart a little more.[/quote]

Namaste Pandara,
thank you for those words clarifying a lot
you have such a nice way of explaining things in a concise way

When union between the pranic and mental forces takes place the awakening of higher consiousness is there.
Those energies ( prana shakti and manas shakti) interacting that is what hatha yoga is all about
That also explains the breath as a bridge
with love and light Louise

A sceptic. Best start, in my opinion.
But you are not a beginner.

To doubt something, one needs to believe in that thing in the first place. Otherwise doubt has no meaning.
What you did, you transceeded your unrealistic expectations about these things. (mind control, focusing, concentration)

Your mindset is still: I do this, and I get that. This is good in the physical world, using the tools we have (the parts of our being subject to our will - as we are partly in control, I think you admit this) but it is not enough when we need to transcend this world.

That’s why christianity for example, talks about faith. Faith is simply, to believe that some wonder can happen, regardless of our better knowledge. Admitting, that we do not know ourselves and the world enough, to make a sound judgement about what can, and what cannot happen.

There are many things we do not know, but we accept it. How could we live if we’d always doubted everything ? But we also must realize that we accept so many thiings for the sake of our comfort, that we really are not able or entitled to judge what the world is, when we do not know a lot about ourselves.

Can you stop your heart to beat ? Can you direct your own digestion ? Could you live without air, or the earth to walk on ? What if there would not be plants, animals tp provide food ? What are you ? Who are you ?
Isn’t this total humiliation, to be born, and be under the power of so many things beyond your control ?

We, in our pride and the comfort of our artifcial physical and mental environment (materialist one) we think we have everything figured out. We don’t know crap, my friend. Tell, me, what is life ?
What makes a seed explode into a flower wearing plant, a cell divide, a bird sing ? You may come with a evolutionary theory, and you can dwell into great depths of physics, biology, aso, yet, up to this day, I have not heard anyone defining life. If we would know that, we could create life, yet, we cannot. Realizing this, is the first step. We have no clue about what moves the world around us … and yet we try to judge it.

Materialist science is nothing but an honest reaction to religion’s blind faith, built on authority. Science needs to pass this state of reaction, this state of excluding soul and spirit from the realm of existence, than it can really become science.

PS. The things you miss, are real. I have expereinced them. So, it is my word against yours, at worst, but I say, you can expereince them too, if you are willing to bear for them, wait for them, be open for them. You do not want these, though, you want comfort, you want safety. You are afraid to give up the confines of your mind. Be brave. Be a spiritual warrior … enlist to the battle you cannot win. :slight_smile:

[quote=atindra;13513]

Looking forward to more discussion.
Dr Atindra Datta, MBBS, MS
Professor: www.mua.edu[/quote]

Your treatise is built entirely on materialist world view charactersitic to our age.
This might suit an intellectual approach, yet, what yoga is really about is using the whole human being as a tool, not juts it’s physical body.

Materialist science is at difficulty accepting the reality of “higher” bodies, other koshas than the manomaya kosha.

A person I know, a really scientific mind, working in IT, had this idea of creating a thinking machine. So he ventured into psichology, psychiatry, biology, physiology and he was shocked by how there is really so little we actually know about ourselves. I mean, yes, there are great discoveries, and we witness in greater and greater details what complex processes, synergies, are there present in our physical body, yet the main questions are still answered by hypotetycal scenarios. Evolutionary theory is one such thing. It is mereley hypotetical, even if it seems to fit best what we see happen in the physical realm.

When I see the beastman example I smile. It is really don’t know how it did happen … of course, you might ask me, what do I think than, and I must say, I am not sure, yet now I am more and more aware of the gaps and baseless presumptions of so called science of today. In it’s efforts to remain objective, scientist refuse to see that knowledge is subjective, and cannot be separated from their own personal life. To be true, if a materialist scientis would be honest, he/she would have to come to the conclusion that thinking is futile, prone to mistakes, and suspend, not trust the whole process alltogheter.

Dear Mr Pandara,
thanks for your understanding of the form of HEART you mean. I get it now. However, my students are all in modern medicine and they ask always the physical form of heart. We have to explain in terms of physiology the experiences of heart to undergo in times of crisis. I understand the dealing of Yoga involves a great deal of realising the supernatural mental state and imagining a metaphysical thought. Now I do get it. But at the same time there are many who like to know the yogic implications by modern medicine path. It has definite benevolent path and that can be established by careful study and scientific reasoning. Attempts to cloud the reasoning by baseless thoughts as you can see in the replies of this thread is to perpetuate hazy picture to linger on . This is the hiccup in the journey to better understanding of solid scientific basis.
with regards
Dr Datta

If you could read this, perhaps you’d come to a better understanding of what I was trying to say in a much clumsier and perhaps biased way. :slight_smile:

All my respect for your approach. I like scientific rigour and discipline, but it needs to be applied on a greater scale.

[quote=atindra;13549]to perpetuate hazy picture to linger on . This is the hiccup in the journey to better understanding of solid scientific basis.
with regards
Dr Datta[/quote]

Dear dr. datta,
there have been many scientist thinking they found solid proof,
but do we still believe the world is flat?
there is proof for things now people could not have imagened long time ago.
science also accepts proof from many experiences based on empiric proof. Why is it not so with yoga?
Same as if you try to explain love with reason you will never see the point.
what is it you are looking for in yoga?
namaste louise

Namaste Dr Datta,

What matters for me now is that there are people like you who train and teach these students of the future, your awareness will somehow manifest itself and i take great comfort in this as your awareness will affect those who come into contact with you. :slight_smile: