No informed person would endeavor to maintain that the churchmen were always in the right, but by the same token no one can deny that they were generally on the side of the angels in their treatment of the Indians. It was the outraged voice of the friar, Bartolom? de las Casas, which first made Europe aware of the fate that had befallen thousands of the natives in enslavement by the Spanish conquerors. As it was the agitation aroused by Las Casas and his kind that prompted Pope Paul III in 1537 to issue the bull Sublimis Deus in which he declared: “The said Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians, are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ.” (American Catholicism, 5)
What about the good things many Catholics do because of their faith?
Jesus said to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. And many Catholics do just that through various charitible organizations and services.
Or would the assertion be that people are hungry and naked in the first place because of the evil Catholic presence?
Thomas, there is no point in posts containing vague assertions like these. The whole point of this thread is to talk about the misconceptions and prove that they are such. For example, why don’t you talk about your interpretation of those verses that clearly contain such violence, intolerance, and so forth? That would be a much better start to this thread. If you maintain your peace, you are only helping those you believe are spreading falsehood.
There are only so many hours in a day…
I understand there are some violent stories in the OT. But they are taken out of context, and with no explaination about the purpose, the audience, the time, the culture, etc.
There is nothing in Christianity telling us to do likewise, and nothing in the OT, either, telling anyone to do what was recorded.
This is about as far as I can go with this, without doing research that I don’t have the time or inclination to pursue.
If you want to really understand what the Church admonishes Catholics to do and believe, then please read the Catholic Catechism.
[QUOTE=thomas;46329]What leads you to believe this is in Catholic doctrine?[/QUOTE]
No no no silly Thomas. I was referring to the general Catholic/Christian doctrine of wiping out a pagan practice wherever they see it.
[QUOTE=thomas;46336]No informed person would endeavor to maintain that the churchmen were always in the right, but by the same token no one can deny that they were generally on the side of the angels in their treatment of the Indians. It was the outraged voice of the friar, Bartolom? de las Casas, which first made Europe aware of the fate that had befallen thousands of the natives in enslavement by the Spanish conquerors. As it was the agitation aroused by Las Casas and his kind that prompted Pope Paul III in 1537 to issue the bull Sublimis Deus in which he declared: “The said Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians, are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ.” (American Catholicism, 5)
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2009/0904fea2.asp[/QUOTE]
Nice declaration, never reinforced, and never could be while Christians in foreign lands had their own ideas, reinforced by the ones present in the Bible. This is evidenced by the rape of colonized countries and attempted conversions (whether indirect, through the manipulation of texts in India’s case, or forcefully).
Look at French Indochina (or what WAS French Indochina). Look at Vietnam. Now their predominant faith/ideology is Buddhism but they deeply mistrust Christianity since at one point, Catholic missionaries conspired with French officials to take over Vietnam and install a Catholic emperor. Do you call that respect ofthe liberty and property of those whose faith is outside Jesus Christ?
[QUOTE=thomas;46337]What about the good things many Catholics do because of their faith?
Jesus said to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. And many Catholics do just that through various charitible organizations and services.
Or would the assertion be that people are hungry and naked in the first place because of the evil Catholic presence?[/QUOTE]
Charitable organizations? These “charitable” organizations almost ALWAYS are not altruistic and almost ALWAYS have an ulterior motive; conversion through putting up a show of good works being the main one. Take Teresa for example. Tell me Thomas, why didn’t she situate the main body of her organization in Africa? Why India? Why Calcutta? Why in a place that was far better off than Africa and why in a place with a religion that is the antipode of Abrahamic religions (with idol worship and polytheism)?
And yes, people ARE hungry and naked in the first place due to “evil Christian presence.”
Now, I appreciate what they have done. What I don’t appreciate is the ulterior motive to convert people. What I don’t appreciate is the way the deceitfully attempt to subvert other cultures by making a show of how good Christianity is because of what they’re doing and how inferior their religion is because of the state their country is in. What I don’t appreciate is the way they try to hide it and make it look benevolent, when in reality, it is just the opposite. What I don’t appreciate is the attention they get in the West, even though there are charitable Indian organizations that do a far greater job.
Thomas, I have lived in India. I have seen this exact same thing with my [B]very own eyes.[/B] I have seen how a “charitable organization” expanded into creating schools preaching Christian ideology and dogma (and how it eventually dominated where I lived. I had to go to a Catholic public school, Thomas). I had observed how I lost many friends to that black hole, when they attempted to convert me and started to degrade India and Hinduism (and guess what? They were CATHOLIC). I had observed how our anti-Hindu government taxed the wealth flowing into a Hindu temple to create more Mosques and Churches, offensively close to a Hindu temple. I had observed how they stopped glorifying one of our greatest scientists and icons when they figured out he was Brahmin. I notice how they always say “Congress making progress with terrorism” when it isn’t the Islamic radicals involved but Hindu radicals (even in my city, where the population was predominantly Muslim, and where MANY MANY MANY anti-Hindu acts were carried out).
Wow, the evidence AGIAINST Christianity is overwhelming.
I think it is safe to say Thomas is a minority viewpoint in his religon.
[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;46297]Rather than cut and paste ideas and claim them as my own, I would like to share this article and ask how anyone from the lowest caste cannot view their situation as oppressive and spiritually violent -
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_caste.asp
I would prefer to hear from someone who is a member of this caste, but would be amused at your justification.[/QUOTE]
Bump x2
[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;46365]Bump x2[/QUOTE]
It is obvious you seek someone who wants to degrade Hinduism, so you can appease your Christianized Western bigotry. Since it is also obvious that your prejudice has effected your mental faculties, I might as well break the news to you: there aren’t any people from that caste on this forum (if you are referring to untouchables, then they technically don’t have a caste. I have several friends who are Hindu Shudras, the lowest caste, and their views are the same as the ones I have already provided). But don’t worry, there’s a solution to all this; an invention called Google. I can instruct you in the nuances of it if you want me to.
By the way, there’s a new edition to my recounting of Francisco Pizarro’s pirac - I mean, glorious, Holy, conquest. In it, is the detailed story of what happened to all the gold/silver, a story which I forgot to mention in the previous edition. Since you all are my most ardent fans, I will summarize it for you: the gold was shipped to Spain. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the true conclusion of the story of the noble Catholic who attempted to convert heathens, the devout follower of Jesus Christ, FRANCISCO PIZARRO!
- El fin
[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;46365]Bump x2[/QUOTE]
"This is a good start Surya. I’ll contact A R Rahman so he can compose an upbeat score. You and Friedrich practice your dance routines (who’s the stright guy?). Leave everything to me and I’ll have you guys prancing down the red carpet come Oscar season.
May have to change the old testament theme thing a bit. Violence is good, but can you find some sexy bits? Just try to resist casting any girls under 16. I’ve read about old Hindu men’s preference for marrying the young ones. Won’t go over well out here. Round up some lower caste filthy untouchable bastards to haul the equipment around on the cheap, and we’re set." - Flex Penguin
[QUOTE=Nietzsche;46367]It is obvious you seek someone who wants to degrade Hinduism, so you can appease your Christianized Western bigotry. Since it is also obvious that your prejudice has effected your mental faculties, I might as well break the news to you: there aren’t any people from that caste on this forum (if you are referring to untouchables, then they technically don’t have a caste. I have several friends who are Hindu Shudras, the lowest caste, and their views are the same as the ones I have already provided). But don’t worry, there’s a solution to all this; an invention called Google. I can instruct you in the nuances of it if you want me to.
[/QUOTE]
OK. It’s too damn cold out to go skiing, so I’ll play.
Bollywood - here we come! I see you have been rehearsing, which is fantastic! What a show this is going to be. 4 hours long, minimum, with 2 intervals.
Here’s the synopsis:
The Hero: Surya Deva, he’s a rich boy, a spoiled brat. His mother has died and his mean father has remarried a Chritian woman. Surya often sees his mother in his dreams where she begs him to find a nice girl and settle down. When we first meet our hero he’s surrounded by scantily clad girls prancing around him in their vast garden, while white and lilac petals fall from the sky. They sing:
[I]Surya
Surya
Surya Deva
Āpa kē li’ē hamārā pyāra pīlē bukhāra kī taraha jalatā hai.
(Our love for you
Burns like yellow fever!)[/I]
Our hero has charms to distract the girls while dancing - singing of his dream girl.
[I]She comes to me
Like biscuit from the cupboard
So dry at first
But dunked in milk
So white to see[/I]
The Heroine: Fraulein Freidrich (funny name for a hindu girl, but we can make it work). She is the epitome of today’s generation. Fraulein Freidrich is poor outcast from a small village, but her jewelry is designed by Tanishq. Our heroine is having a bath in the local canal when our hero sees her. Their eyes meet, heartbeats stop, music happens, everyone around them begins the choreographed dancing rountine, the camera pans a wide panoramic shot of the scene, and love is in the air!
Fraulein Freidrich sings the main theme tune:
[I]Surya
Surya
Surya Deva
My love for you
Lifts me up like a lever![/I]
The Villain: (TBA) Surya’s father and his Christian wife, always spying on them from behind the doors or the trees. They sing as well:
[I]Surya
Surya
Surya Deva
If you marry her
We will carve you with a cleaver![/I]
Meanwhile, one lonely night our hero is alone, looking out into the Ganges, when his ghostly mother appears to him:
[I]Surya
Surya
Surya Deva
Fraulein Freidrich is too brown
Why don’t you leave her?[/I]
SD:
[I]Mām̐, maiṁ apanā dūdha liyā hai,
lēkina ēka chōṭī sī mēka’apa
Fraulein Freidrich pārita kara sakatē haiṁ wih.
(Mother, I’ve had your milk, but wih a little makeup Fraulein Freidrich can pass.)[/I]
This goes on for a couple of hours, then our villains kidnap Fraulein Freidrich and take her to a palace that has a pool filled with pink acid. Much singing and dancing there. But, our hero’s best friend urges Surya Deva to rescue the Fraulein.
[I]Surya
Surya
Surya Deva
If you let this happen
You will surely bereave her![/I]
So, off they prance - the scantliy clad girls in tow - to rescue the Fraulein Freidrich from the clutches of the evil father and Christian stepmother. When the arrive, a great fight ensues with a cast of thousands. Carefully choreographed, the villains and heroes battle for another hour or so. Finally, Surya Deva rescues his Fraulein Freidrich, but as they sing to each other, they realize they cannot remain on Earth together, so they decide to jump into the pool of pink acid. As they sink, to their knees, then their waist, then their shoulders, the camera zooms into a close up and our lovers kiss passionately. The fighting stops and sun is blacked out by a swarm of parrots, their droppings falling on the villains.
But wait! It’s not over! Our lovers emerge in heaven, hand in hand (the scantily clad girls are there to meet them) and they are shown to a table full of great food by our hero’s mother. At the table are many guests, including Siva, Jesus, Allah, and the prophet MHd (have to careful there. Don’t want to make the same mistake as the Danes). Everyone is happy to see them, and the final song echoes with Rahman’s signature beat, while white and lilac petals fall from the sky.
[I]Surya
Surya
Surya Deva
Now you have the chance
To show her your pecker![/I]
([I]note: the preceding is a parody. Any resemblance to any person or culture, living or dead, is purely coincidental. Your humble narrator’s personal views are not in any way reflected here [/I]:-P)
What about your film industry, with its glorification of sex, drugs, violence, gangs, incest, infidelity, and so forth?
Other that that, I know what you mean. Bollywood fails. I hate the songs, the LOVE theme…annoys me so…sooo…SOOOOOOO…MUCH!!!
Anyway nice script. It had me laughing all throughout, with its baseless synopsis (same with Bollywood movies, so I agree with it), awkward Hindi, hilarious songs, and Indian stereotypes created by low IQ Westerners. And nice Westerner attempt to avoid any liability through your screwed up laws.
One problem with the Hindi is that you seem to be inserting too many “a’s” when it isn’t necessary.
Overall rating: 0/5 stars. Pretty good attempt for a white man with inferior intellect!
Wait a sec. I liked your first response post better than this revised one. It was a rave review. What happened? It’s a tiny mind that can be flipped so easily. Anyway fr?ulein, get back to practicing your routine. Shooting starts at dawn.
[QUOTE=Nietzsche;46376]What about your film industry, with its glorification of sex, drugs, violence, gangs, incest, infidelity, and so forth?
Other that that, I know what you mean. Bollywood fails. I hate the songs, the LOVE theme…annoys me so…sooo…SOOOOOOO…MUCH!!!
Anyway nice script. It had me laughing all throughout, with its baseless synopsis (same with Bollywood movies, so I agree with it), awkward Hindi, hilarious songs, and Indian stereotypes created by low IQ Westerners. And nice Westerner attempt to avoid any liability through your screwed up laws.
One problem with the Hindi is that you seem to be inserting too many “a’s” when it isn’t necessary.
Overall rating: 0/5 stars. Pretty good attempt for a white man with inferior intellect![/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;46381]Wait a sec. I liked your first response post better than this revised one. It was a rave review. What happened? It’s a tiny mind that can be flipped so easily. Anyway fr?ulein, get back to practicing your routine. Shooting starts at dawn.[/QUOTE]
Well, lets just say I realized that there was no point in enumerating such things, like the flawed Hindi, to a confirmed anti-Hindu/Indian. A white man’s mind so hell-bent on defaming other races, instead of on negative aspects of their cultures and beliefs, will never develop!
[QUOTE=Nietzsche;46385]Well, lets just say I realized that there was no point in enumerating such things, like the flawed Hindi, to a confirmed anti-Hindu/Indian. A white man’s mind so hell-bent on defaming other races, instead of on negative aspects of their cultures and beliefs, will never develop![/QUOTE]
Excellent! You’re getting the part down pat. Now, get that head moving from side to side while you say those lines.
Yawn* I have had enough fun scorning you. I will leave you to degrade yourself with these comments. You sure do have a lot to learn on the path to spirituality!
[QUOTE=Nietzsche;46339]No no no silly Thomas. I was referring to the general Catholic/Christian doctrine of wiping out a pagan practice wherever they see it.[/QUOTE]
Another misconception. There is no such doctrine.
[QUOTE=thomas;46398]Another misconception. There is no such doctrine.[/QUOTE]
Not even in the general sense, even the impressions you get from reading the OT (and some parts of the NT)?
Then why were such practices sanctioned (destroying of aboriginal cultures and the natives themselves)?