Misconceptions and Misinformation

Well this is the first thread I have created on these forums. Quite simply, its purpose is this:

If you feel your religion has been misunderstood or certain misinterpretations have abounded, post it here, talk about it, and, most importantly, debate about it.

Too many threads on this forum have deviated from the general topic of discussion into smaller sub-discussion on the more subtle aspects of certain religions, of which I played no small part. :smiley:

Additionally, the most controversial threads on this forum have been in the format where an assertion is given, an argument formulated to support it, and a debate is commenced against those who disagree. I feel that this way, where the discussion is not about a general assertion/question, but something abstract and not given (but provided by voluntary input), there will be a less of a tendency for the thread to regress into less relevant and less civil discussions.

I, for one, would like to clear up a few things.

Caste System - This system is more of a societal system. Yes it is ordained in the scriptures, but as a method of organizing society and not as a method of oppression.

AIT (Aryan Invasion Theory) - This theory was created by dishonest Christians with the agenda of dividing Indians and making Hinduism largely seem the product of foreign invasions and input. If you want to see the proof against, please do some research. How does this pertain to our religion? The timeline set for the AIT has been used to date our scriptures, often without proper regard to their linguistics, the fact that oral teachings and can never have a definite date set to it, and the traditional Indian view on recording history (doesn’t need to be recorded; small passages of time are nothing compared to the grand scheme of things). So be mindful when you want to start setting dates to our scriptures based on Eurocentric dogma.

Sexism - Authoritative Hindu scriptures, which are largely set in the Vedic times, do not indicate the lack of privileges for women. It has been proven that in ancient India, women were treated equally and were even allowed to read scriptures. They were highly regarded. Any developments to the contrary are the result of advancing civilization (with brings with it social stratification).

I might have forgot a few things, but that’s that. Does this mean I expect you to agree with this? Of course not. That’s the reality of a forum for religion.

Let the trash talking commence. :smiley:

Good thread Nietzsche.

If somebody feels that misconceptions and misinformation has been spread about their religions in this religon forum. This is the best place to clear it up. However, evidence has to be provided to prove ones position.

I think Hinduism is cool. I’m not looking for any dirt, and if I happened to find any, would go to a Hindu first, and in good faith ask for an explaination.

So many misconceptions about my own faith have been posted, that I wouldn’t know where to begin. The only thing I will say for now is that I believe as I do in good faith, as do most of the others in my faith. The purpose of our beliefs is to be the best people we can be to others, and to find eternal life.

I don’t have the time or the energy or the skills to refute every accusation that comes along.

And I don’t understand the mindset of those who continually look for the bad, and why they don’t instead look for the positive, and look at those who have done the best and the most with the faith they profess.

I’d rather talk about Hindu saints than the occasional Hindu Swami who seduced his followers. Likewise I would rather talk about Catholic saints and those who have lived heroic and sacrificial lives for the good of others. If I want to see a bad Catholic, I don’t have to go further than a mirror. My own sins and flaws are what concern me, not those of others, regardless of their faith. But I would be a worse person, were I not a Catholic, and I think that goes for all other practicing Catholics.

pssst.

Shhhh.

Come here. I wanna tell you a secret . . .

They are [I]all[/I] relatively similar.

The only misconceptions and misinterpretations I see are:

a. Non-Hindus who think they understand Hinduism and Hindus if they practice yoga and have read the Vedas, Mahabharata, Sutras etc and then commented on these aspects, and
b. Non-Christians who think they understand Christianity and Christians if they have read the Bible and the dogmas of chrisitanity and then commented on these aspects.

No, you should find dirt. If we can explain it, we will. I am certainly not going to apologise for it or rationalize it. I hold my religion to the same standards as I hold yours.

So many misconceptions about my own faith have been posted, that I wouldn’t know where to begin. The only thing I will say for now is that I believe as I do in good faith, as do most of the others in my faith. The purpose of our beliefs is to be the best people we can be to others, and to find eternal life.

Then prove that this is a misconception. The material posted in the OT thread is from an expert secular religious web site that is peer reviewed. Are you saying they are all deluded? It is easy to prove for anybody who has a bible that this material is in the bible. It is easy to prove for anybody who takes a course in history that Christianity has caused massive amount of destruction.

And I don’t understand the mindset of those who continually look for the bad, and why they don’t instead look for the positive, and look at those who have done the best and the most with the faith they profess.

That is a false accusation. I am have repeatedly praised the NT, the character of Jesus and good Christians and Christian saints. In the same vain I have condemened the common barbarism and savagry in the OT.

I am an honest individual who rewards merit and condemns demerit. I hold my own religion to the same standards. I assure you if in my religions scripture it said kill and rape 32,000 women, I would drop it in a heart beat. I wouldn’t even go through the motions of trying to find an apology for it.

If I was you but had my honesty I would drop the OT in a heart beat as soon as I came to learn that it contained such savagry and barbarism.

I think honest people get persecuted in this world today. Sad indeed.

[quote=the scales;46266]pssst.

Shhhh.

Come here. I wanna tell you a secret . . .

They are all relatively similar.[/quote]

bingo!!!

There’s nothing in my religion telling me to kill anyone.

[QUOTE=thomas;46293]There’s nothing in my religion telling me to kill anyone.[/QUOTE]

Then again, there is certainly [B]nothing to stop[/B] those who wish to kill a pagan.

Thomas, there is no point in posts containing vague assertions like these. The whole point of this thread is to talk about the misconceptions and prove that they are such. For example, why don’t you talk about your interpretation of those verses that clearly contain such violence, intolerance, and so forth? That would be a much better start to this thread. If you maintain your peace, you are only helping those you believe are spreading falsehood.

[QUOTE=Pandara;46272]The only misconceptions and misinterpretations I see are:

a. Non-Hindus who think they understand Hinduism and Hindus if they practice yoga and have read the Vedas, Mahabharata, Sutras etc and then commented on these aspects, and
b. Non-Christians who think they understand Christianity and Christians if they have read the Bible and the dogmas of chrisitanity and then commented on these aspects.[/QUOTE]

Then if believing in the fundamental aspects of Hinduism reading Hindu scriptures, and formulating your beliefs accordingly is not being an Hindu, what qualifies as such, if I may ask? “Tolerance” is most definitely not a requirement, insofar as “critical thought with respect to any belief system” is concerned.

Same goes for your second definition.

It seems clear that you are defining Hindu and Christian based on the fantasized notions people in the West often have of these two groups; Hindus being tolerance and peace-loving and Christians preaching love and brotherhood.

Sorry, but the reality is quite different. MUCH different, in fact.

Rather than cut and paste ideas and claim them as my own, I would like to share this article and ask how anyone from the lowest caste cannot view their situation as oppressive and spiritually violent -
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_caste.asp

I would prefer to hear from someone who is a member of this caste, but would be amused at your justification.

[QUOTE=thomas;46262]I think Hinduism is cool. I’m not looking for any dirt, and if I happened to find any, would go to a Hindu first, and in good faith ask for an explaination.

So many misconceptions about my own faith have been posted, that I wouldn’t know where to begin. The only thing I will say for now is that I believe as I do in good faith, as do most of the others in my faith. The purpose of our beliefs is to be the best people we can be to others, and to find eternal life.

I don’t have the time or the energy or the skills to refute every accusation that comes along.

And I don’t understand the mindset of those who continually look for the bad, and why they don’t instead look for the positive, and look at those who have done the best and the most with the faith they profess.

I’d rather talk about Hindu saints than the occasional Hindu Swami who seduced his followers. Likewise I would rather talk about Catholic saints and those who have lived heroic and sacrificial lives for the good of others. If I want to see a bad Catholic, I don’t have to go further than a mirror. My own sins and flaws are what concern me, not those of others, regardless of their faith. But I would be a worse person, were I not a Catholic, and I think that goes for all other practicing Catholics.[/QUOTE]

No. As SD said, always find dirt. Always look at things with a critical eye. Never accept things blindly. Then inquire about it. Finding dirt is a good way to better one’s understanding of their religion or other’s religions.

The reality is, Christians have shown no improvement as a whole. Most, unlike you, go around defaming other religions, spreading lies, converting, spreading hate speech and derogatory remarks, and ignorance in general. Therefore, we have to look at their religion and scriptures and find out what justification they derive for such heinous deeds. The reality is, scriptures contain more “dirt” than others. This is why we must always look for the bad, especially when the bad FAR outweighs the good on a large scale.

As for the rest, if the majority of Christians had your mindset and were only concerned with themselves…the world would have been a much better place. Unfortunately, that hasn’t been the case.

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;46297]Rather than cut and paste ideas and claim them as my own, I would like to share this article and ask how anyone from the lowest caste cannot view their situation as oppressive and spiritually violent -
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_caste.asp

I would prefer to hear from someone who is a member of this caste, but would be amused at your justification.[/QUOTE]

Bump

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;46297]Rather than cut and paste ideas and claim them as my own, I would like to share this article and ask how anyone from the lowest caste cannot view their situation as oppressive and spiritually violent -
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_caste.asp

I would prefer to hear from someone who is a member of this caste, but would be amused at your justification.[/QUOTE]

I have many Hindu friends who are MEMBERS OF THE LOWEST CASTE! GASP THE END OF THE WORLD!!! I know their opinions on this matter very well.

No one ever said their situation ISN’T, or should I say, WASN’T oppressive or spiritually violent. We said that the caste system evolved to be a rigid societal system due to the “advancement” of civilization, meaning the development of a stratified society. This sort of development has happened EVERYWHERE. Perhaps, I should have been more clear about this matter. No, this doesn’t excuse their suffering and yes, the fault lies within partly within Hinduism for proposing such an easily corrupted system without tying in the lose ends and partly within our society for letting societal dogma influence any further unsatisfactory developments. The matter becomes especially worse when such a system is proposed by a belief system instead of developing through natural processes.

If you know anything about Indian history and Hindu scriptures, the Vedas, for one, mention almost nothing on caste system or the need to oppress people because of their caste. Other Hindu scriptures contain verses on caste-caste discrimination right alongside others that talk about inter-caste egalitarianism. Most of those are artificial insertions. Kings back then were of all sorts of origins and no one really cared. Throughout Indian history, prior to foreign rule (during which caste system became vastly more rigid), mobility between castes was not uncommon (though technically, considering the doctrines of reincarnation, there would have been no meaning). Caste discrimination was highly dependent on the particular rural area or region in question.

However, all this doesn’t get any mention in Western textbooks. They don’t even mention the 1 and 1/2 millennia between Gupta and Mughal rule and they mention the Mughal rule itself by only focusing on Akbar and the Taj Mahal. If it was mentioned, they would have no choice but to include all those attempted reforms of the Varna system, influenced mostly by Hinduism itself, especially the Bhakti movement. But Westerners need to make Hinduism seem like an inferior religion and to give off the impression that present-day reforms of Hinduism are the product of Western ideals.

If there was any group of people that were discriminated against, it would be the people that were not part of the caste system at all; the untouchables. I think these are the people whom you are referring to. If so, then yes, these people were historically discriminated against (but various widespread reforms, mentioned above did improve their conditions). However, during the British rule, this discrimination (even within castes) was even more rampant than in times of Hindu and Mughal rule. It was the British who codified it to suit their own agendas, and poisoned the minds of Indians by reinstating this system that was beginning to hold less importance in Indian society. Once again, does this get any mention in Western textbooks?

The fault however, somewhat lies with us for not realizing otherwise well after the British rule ended. Then again, it is hard to move past such things when your country has been raped of its wealth, resources, and identity, and the memory of 4 millennia old system has been reinforced with great rigor. We Indians have made much progress regarding this matter, but there is still quite a ways to go.

Do I have any animosity towards the untouchables? No. Do I pity their plight? Yes. Do I wish to make it up to them? Yes. Do I have any hatred towards those of them who are spreading anti-Hindu propaganda and dividing India with their cultivation of antagonisms? No, because I understand that their hatred of Hinduism is the same as mine towards certain aspects of Christianity and Islam. Does this mean I agree with their actions? No. They are simply churning the cycle of oppression.

I have already read portions of that article various times in the past. What specific point are you trying to make? Speak your mind and we will discuss this matter more, unless if you simply want to degrade Hinduism more to slake your Christianized Western ego.

If there’s anything worse than this (fast declining) caste oppression, it is Westerners like you. You Westerners love to ridicule to poverty and ignorance in other countries instead of helping alleviate it. You only look at the present conditions of other countries and not who caused (Westerners) it. You people do not realize that similar forms of social oppression were even rampant in the “civilized” West (women’s rights for one); your colonialism and imperialism prevented similar notions from being developed in the countries you ruled, who would have otherwise developed them anyway. You use our current state to exploit us further. You develop notions such as social Darwinism and AIT to justify your conquering of other countries, the propaganda created to make the “natives” look like barbarians, and the superiority of the West. “The West can do whatever it wants, whenever it wants.” (Indra Deva’s words). I could go on and on but I am making myself feel nauseated by typing all of this.

And you wonder why SD and I are so “intolerant”?

Then again, there is certainly nothing to stop those who wish to kill a pagan.

The religion itself forbids it, and such a killer could end up in hell, and the law prohibits it, and could result in life imprisonment or execution, so there is a great disincentive to be a pagan-killer.

[QUOTE=thomas;46303]The religion itself forbids it, and such a killer could end up in hell, and the law prohibits it, and could result in life imprisonment or execution, so there is a great disincentive to be a pagan-killer.[/QUOTE]

But that didn’t [B]stop[/B] or [B]prevent[/B] the wanton conquering of other civilizations (and their subsequent elimination), the subjugation of other races, witch burnings, burning of people at the stake, and other things SD and I mention. That doesn’t [B]stop[/B] or [B]prevent[/B] the anti-Hindu violence/actions done by Christians in India/rest of the world who justify their actions by citing verses from the Bible depicting the similar elimination of pagans. That doesn’t [B]prevent[/B] feelings of Christian/Western supremacy from being cultivated, feelings that ultimately lead to such violence. Other people on thus forum were proven to have such feelings.

"This is a good start Surya. I’ll contact A R Rahman so he can compose an upbeat score. You and Friedrich practice your dance routines [B](who’s the stright guy?).[/B] Leave everything to me and I’ll have you guys [B]prancing down the red carpet come Oscar season.[/B]

May have to change the old testament theme thing a bit. [B]Violence is good, but can you find some sexy bits? Just try to resist casting any girls under 16. I’ve read about old Hindu men’s preference for marrying the young ones. Won’t go over well out here. Round up some lower caste filthy untouchable bastards to haul the equipment around on the cheap, and we’re set."[/B] - Flex Penguin

"Actually, when we get down to brass tacks, [B]the “Evil West” is going to do whatever it wants. Why? Because we deserve it, considering the $Trillions$ & $Trillions$ of dollars that we’ve sent India to drag it out & keep it out of the gutter.[/B] Now that India is internationally recognized as a “developing country”, you’re all "Now get out! & completely change while you’re at it!“
Sorry, the real world doesn’t work like that. It never has. You like all the money we give you but you don’t like having us around? [B]Pssht, grow the hell up.[/B]
Asians can look at the plethora of religions, philosophies, and belief systems available to them and they pick & choose like a salad bar. [B]As Western countries have global social & financial influence, we will pick and choose from what religions or philosophies we like, when we like. We have the money, the power, and the authority, & we’ll do what we like. You can whine about it all you want but it’s a waste of time. Grow up & get with the real world.” [/B]- Indra Deva

By the way Thomas, here is a PRIMARY DOCUMENT, an excerpt from a Spanish soldier (Spaniards were Catholic by the way) who was with the “army” of Francisco Pizarro when they conquered the Incans, a Native American civilization that lived in the Andes Mountains portion of South America (especially in Peru). The excerpt was taken from the book, Guns, Germs, and Steel, a fascinating book that attempts to explain the question. “Why did civilizations develop the way they did.” It is quite a lot, so I will highlight the juicy bits.

"The [B]prudence, fortitude, military discipline, labors, perilous
navigations, and battles of the Spaniards—vassals of the most invincible
Emperor of the Roman Catholic Empire, our natural King and Lord—will
cause joy to the faithful and terror to the infidels[/B]. For this reason, and for
the glory of God our Lord and for the service of the Catholic Imperial
Majesty, it has seemed good to me to write this narrative, and to send it to
Your Majesty, that all may have a knowledge of what is here related. [B]It will
be to the glory of God, because they have conquered and brought to our holy
Catholic Faith so vast a number of heathens, aided by His holy guidance.[/B]
It will be to the honor of our Emperor because, by reason of his great power
and good fortune, such events happened in his time. It will give joy to the
faithful that such battles have been won, such provinces discovered and
conquered, such riches brought home for the King and for themselves; [B]and
that such terror has been spread among the infidels, such admiration excited
in all mankind.[/B]

"For when, either in ancient or modern times, have such great exploits
been achieved by so few against so many, over so many climes, across so
many seas, over such distances by land, [B]to subdue the unseen and
unknown? Whose deeds can be compared with those of Spain? Our
Spaniards, being few in number, never having more than 200 or 300 men
together, and sometimes only 100 and even fewer, have, in our times,
conquered more territory than has ever been known before, or than all the
faithful and infidel princess possess.[/B] I will only write, at present, of what
befell in the conquest, and I will not write much, in order to avoid prolixity.

"[B]Governor Pizarro wished to obtain intelligence from some Indians
who had come from Cajamarca, so he had them tortured.[/B] They confessed
that they had heard that Atahuallpa was waiting for the Governor at
Cajamarca. The Governor then ordered us to advance. On reaching the
entrance to Cajamarca, we saw the camp of Atahuallpa at a distance of a
league, in the skirts of the mountains. [B]The Indians’ camp looked like a
very beautiful city. They had so many tents that we were all filled with
great apprehension. Until then, we had never seen anything like this in the
Indies.[/B] It filled all our Spaniards with fear and confusion. But we could
not show any fear or turn back, for if the Indians had sensed any weakness m
us, even the Indians that we were bringing with us as guides would have
killed us. [B]So we made a show of good spirits,[/B] and after carefully
observing the town and the tents, we descended into the valley and
entered Cajamarca.

""We talked a lot among ourselves about what to do. All of us were full
of fear, because we were so few in number and we had penetrated so far
into a land where we could not hope to receive reinforcements. We all met
with the Governor to debate what we should undertake the next day. Few of
us slept that night, and we kept watch in the square of Cajamarca,
looking at the campfires of the Indian army. It was a frightening sight.
Most of the campfires were on a hillside and so close to each other that it
looked like the sky brightly studded with stars. There was no distinction
that night between the mighty and the lowly, or between foot soldiers and
horsemen. Everyone carried out sentry duty fully armed. So too did the
good old Governor, who went about encouraging his men. The Governor’s
brother Hernando Pizarro estimated the number of Indian soldiers there at
40,000, but he was telling a lie just to encourage us, for there were
actually more than 80,000 Indians.

"On the next morning a messenger from Atahuallpa arrived, and the
Governor said to him, [B]‘Tell your lord to come when and how he pleases,
and that, in what way soever he may come I will receive him as a friend
and brother. I pray that he may come quickly, for I desire to see him. No
harm or insult will befall him.’[/B]

"The Governor concealed his troops around the square at Cajamarca,
dividing the cavalry into two portions of which he gave the command of
one to his brother Hernando Pizarro and the command of the other to
Hernando de Soto. In like manner he divided the infantry, he himself taking
one part and giving the other to his brother Juan Pizarro. At the same time,
he ordered Pedro de Candia with two or three infantrymen to go with
trumpets to a small fort in the plaza and to station themselves there with a
small piece of artillery. When all the Indians, and Atahuallpa with them,
had entered the Plaza, the G[B]overnor would give a signal to Candia and his
men, after which they should start firing the gun, and the trumpets should
sound, and at the sound of the trumpets the cavalry should dash out of the
large court where they were waiting hidden in readiness.[/B]

"At noon Atahuallpa began to draw up his men and to approach. Soon
we saw the entire plain full of Indians, halting periodically to wait for
more Indians who kept filing out of the camp behind them. They kept
filling out in separate detachments into the afternoon.
The front detachments were now close to our camp, and still more troops kept issuing
from the camp of the Indians. In front of Atahuallpa went 2,000 Indians
who swept the road ahead of him, and these were followed by the
warriors, half of whom were marching in the fields on one side of him and
half on the other side.

"[B]First came a squadron of Indians dressed in clothes of different colors,
like a chessboard. They advanced, removing the straws from the ground
and sweeping the road. Next came three squadrons in different dresses,
dancing and singing. Then came a number of men with armor, large metal
plates, and crowns of gold and silver. So great was the amount of furniture of
gold and silver which they bore, that it was a marvel to observe how the
sun glinted upon it. Among them came the figure of Atahuallpa in a very
fine litter with the ends of its timbers covered in silver. Eighty lords carried
him on their shoulders, all wearing a very rich blue livery. Atahuallpa
himself was very richly dressed, with his crown on his head and a collar of
large emeralds around his neck. He sat on a small stool with a rich saddle
cushion resting on his litter. The litter was lined with parrot feathers of
many colors and decorated with plates of gold and silver.
"Behind Atahuallpa came two other litters and two hammocks, in
which were some high chiefs, then several squadrons of Indians with
crowns of gold and silver. These Indian squadrons began to enter the plaza to
the accompaniment of great songs, and thus entering they occupied every
part of the plaza.[/B] In the meantime all of us Spaniards were waiting ready,
hidden in a courtyard, full of fear. Many of us urinated without noticing
it, out of sheer terror. On reaching the center of the plaza, Atahuallpa
remained in his litter on high, while his troops continued to file in behind
him.

"[B]Governor Pizarro now sent Friar Vicente de Valverde to go speak to
Atahuallpa, and to require Atahuallpa in the name of God and of the King
of Spain that Atahuallpa subject himself to the law of our Lord Jesus
Christ and to the service of His Majesty the King of Spain. Advancing with a
cross in one hand and the Bible in the other hand, and going among the
Indian troops up to the place where Atahuallpa was, the Friar thus
addressed him: ‘I am a Priest of God, and I teach Christians the things of
God, and in like manner I come to teach you. What I teach is that which
God says to us in this Book. Therefore, on the part of God and of the
Christians, I beseech you to be their friend, for such is God’s will, and it
will be for your good.’[/B]

[B]"Atahuallpa asked for the Book, that he might look at it, and the Friar
gave it to him closed. Atahuallpa did not know how to open the Book,
and the Friar was extending his arm to do so, when Atahuallpa, in great
anger, gave him a blow on the arm, not wishing that it should be opened.
Then he opened it himself, and, without any astonishment at the letters
and paper he threw it away from him five or six paces, his face a deep
crimson.[/B]

[B]"The Friar returned to Pizarro, shouting, ‘Come out! Come out,
Christians! Come at these enemy dogs who reject the things of God. That
tyrant has thrown my book of holy law to the ground! Did you not see
what happened? Why remain polite and servile toward this over-proud
dog when the plains are full of Indians? March out against him, for I
absolve you!’[/B]

"The governor then gave the signal to Candia, who began to fire off the
guns. At the same time the trumpets were sounded, and the armored Spanish
troops, both cavalry and infantry, sallied forth out of their hiding places
straight into the mass of unarmed Indians crowding the square, giving
the Spanish battle cry, ‘Santiago!’ [B]We had placed rattles on the horses to
terrify the Indians. The booming of the guns, the blowing of the trumpets,
and the rattles on the horses threw the Indians into panicked confusion.
The Spaniards fell upon them and began to cut them to pieces[/B].
The Indians were so filled with fear that they climbed on top of one another,
formed mounds, and suffocated each other. [B]Since they were unarmed,
they were attacked without danger to any Christian.[/B]
The cavalry rode them down, killing and wounding, and following in pursuit. The infantry made
so good an assault on those that remained that in a short time most of them
were put to the sword.

"The Governor himself took his sword and dagger, entered the thick of
the Indians with the Spaniards who were with him, and with great bravery
reached Atahuallpa’s litter. He fearlessly grabbed Atahuallpa’s left arm
and shouted ‘Santiago!,’ but he could not pull Atahuallpa out of his litter
because it was held up high. Although we killed the Indians who held the
litter, others at once took their places and held it aloft, and in this manner
we spent a long time in overcoming and killing Indians. Finally seven or
eight Spaniards on horseback spurred on their horses, rushed upon the
litter from one side, and with great effort they heaved it over on its side. In
that way Atahuallpa was captured, and the Governor took Atahuallpa
to his lodging. The Indians carrying the litter, and those escorting
Ata-huallpa, never abandoned him: all died around him.

[B]"The panic-stricken Indians remaining in the square, terrified at the
firing of the guns and at the horses—something they had never seen—tried
to flee from the square by knocking down a stretch of wall and running
out onto the plain outside. Our cavalry jumped the broken wall and
charged into the plain, shouting, ‘Chase those with the fancy clothes!
Don’t let any escape! Spear them!’[/B] All of the other Indian soldiers whom
Atahuallpa had brought were a mile from Cajamarca ready for battle, but
not one made a move, and during all this not one Indian raised a weapon
against a Spaniard. When the squadrons of Indians who had remained in
the plain outside the town saw the other Indians fleeing and shouting, most of
them too panicked and fled. It was an astonishing sight, for the whole
valley for 15 or 20 miles was completely filled with Indians. [B]Night had
already fallen, and our cavalry were continuing to spear Indians in the
fields, when we heard a trumpet calling for us to reassemble at camp.[/B]

"If night had not come on, few out of the more than 40,000 Indian
troops would have been left alive. Six or seven thousand Indians lay dead,
and many more had their arms cut off and other wounds. Atahuallpa himself
admitted that we had killed 7,000 of his men in that battle. The man killed
in one of the litters was his minister, the lord of Chincha, of whom he was
very fond. All those Indians who bore Atahuallpa’s litter appeared to be high
chiefs and councillors. They were all killed, as well as those Indians who
were carried in the other litters and hammocks. The lord of Cajamarca was
also killed, and others, but their numbers were so great that they could not
be counted, for all who came in attendance on Atahuallpa were great
lords. It was extraordinary to see so powerful a ruler captured in so short a
time, when he had come with such a mighty army. [B]Truly, it was not
accomplished by our own forces, for there were so few of us. It was by the
grace of God, which is great.[/B]

"Atahuallpa’s robes had been torn off when the Spaniards pulled him
out of his litter. The Governor ordered clothes to be brought to him, and
when Atahuallpa was dressed, the Governor ordered Atahuallpa to sit
near him and soothed his rage and agitation at finding himself so quickly
fallen from his high estate. [B]The Governor said to Atahuallpa, ‘Do not take it
as an insult that you have been defeated and taken prisoner, for with the
Christians who come with me, though so few in number, I have conquered
greater kingdoms than yours, and have defeated other more
powerful lords than you, imposing upon them the dominion of the Emperor,
whose vassal I am, and who is King of Spain and of the universal world. We
come to conquer this land by his command, that all may come to a
knowledge of God and of His Holy Catholic Faith; and by reason of our
good mission, God, the Creator of heaven and earth and of all things in
them, permits this, in order that you may know Him and come out from the
bestial and diabolical life that you lead. It is for this reason that we, being so
few in number, subjugate that vast host. When you have seen the errors
in which you live, you will understand the good that we have done you by
coming to your land by order of his Majesty the King of Spain. Our Lord
permitted that your pride should be brought low and that no Indian
should be able to offend a Christian.’ " [/B]

From this enriching excerpt, we can truly see the barbarian nature of these Spaniards who loved to conquer and plunder the wondrous civilizations of these Native Americans. The Incas, in case you may start to justify this, did not practice human sacrifice. They were the only other major civilization to believe in reincarnation. The Incas were considered one of the wealthiest civilizations in history, owing to the great mineral wealth of the region they occupied. Astonishingly, they had no written language but used a knotted rope system to keep track of census records and economic subtleties. They even had a form of socialism and their government regulated crop production. Although they conquered other cultures, they treated them humanely and those they conquered quickly assimilated to the Incan Empire. The Incans even practiced mummification and kept the mummified bodies of their former kings and nobles in the palace. The Catholic Church however, was suspicious of this and ordered the destruction of these mummies, as PER CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

And look at how these Spaniards, without any provocation of any sort, came with the intent of conquering these people who would otherwise have been happy to receive them as friends. Sure, the Emperor threw the Bible away. But who wouldn’t when you receive a guest with pomp and festivities and the first thing they tell you is, “You should convert. It is for your own good, even though you have us surrounded by 80,000 more people and you are the man in charge here.” So the priest gets irrationally angry and tells the Spaniards to kill the Indians for understandably rejecting their “gift.” They are even absolved, according to the priest, for any killing they commit.

After the battle ended, Pizarro tells the Emperor: “Oh its ok you got owned by our band of a few hundred troops even though you weren’t expecting war and came unarmed. God allowed this to happen. He wanted you to come out from the bestial and diabolical life you lead (even though the Incans were more advanced than the Europeans of that age, except in weapons). You deserved this and now you have no choice but to do our bidding.”

Let me tell you the Epilogue, shall I? A ransom was offered by the Emperor for his freedom (though some say it was just so the Spanish wouldn’t kill him). He would fill a large room (I forget the exact dimensions, but it was actually quite large) full of gold for the freedom of the Emperor. When the Spaniards didn’t believe him, the designated room was indeed filled with gold, and thus this ransom became known as the largest one in history. But how did the Holy Catholic Spaniards repay this? This is what they did:

After a while, the Spaniards decided the Emperor wasn’t worth the trouble. So they decided to burn him at the stake after a “trial” in which one of the rulings against him was practicing heretical beliefs. Atahualpa wasn’t too happy since Incans believed that when the body was burned, the person wouldn’t go on to the afterlife. But the priest (the same idiot who offered him the Bible) said he wouldn’t be burned if he converted. So he did, and was instead strangled to death. How humane and Catholic.

And what happened to our dear Pizarro? He was brutally murdered by some conspirators in Peru. Good riddance. But of course, according to Catholic beliefs in that time (perhaps even today), he would have gone to heaven for being a Christian and conquering and attempting to convert many heathens, “for their own good.” He even cried for Christ moments before he died, the poor, good Catholic…

What do you say to this Thomas? I know this was a thing of the past but beliefs and biases like the Catholic soldier’s are still part of most Christian’s mindsets who go around converting other people in other countries and those who spread supremacist beliefs.

As I said, if only more Christians were and are like you…

Edit: I did some research. The room was 22 feet by 17 feet by approx 8 feet. And the Emperor actually offered to fill the room with gold once, and silver twice. Triple the shame on Pizarro and his Spanish horde.

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I don’t have time to research this and sort it out.

There was a time when the civil authority and Church were very integrated, and I don’t think that was a good thing. If injustices were done, it was in spite of and not because of the Catholic faith.

The Incans even practiced mummification and kept the mummified bodies of their former kings and nobles in the palace. The Catholic Church however, was suspicious of this and ordered the destruction of these mummies, as PER CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

What leads you to believe this is in Catholic doctrine?

So as far as I’m concerned, new ground has been broken in the misinformation and/or misconception category regarding Catholicism, that Catholic doctrine says that mummies must be destroyed…

That’s a new one for me, and tops by far the one about Catholics worshiping statues.