Monk and Murder Discussion

it is due to?

It is due to Free Awareness. It is due to seing how everything is already perfect and that pure awareness is always present and completely free.

Realizing that nothing that I can ever do, think, learn, feel as this fictitious personal identity will ever change or achieve the ultimate freedom that is already here. It is completely unaffected by anything we do or think about it.

When I realized this, I saw that nothing needed to be done and that it is an illusion to think that we need to create or go through any sort of state in order to ‘reach’ the ultimate. The ultimate has already always been with us. In fact, it is what we are. This what we call ‘us’ is simply a point of reference, an elaborated thought form that comes and goes equally as any other form within the pure space of awareness.

Seeing this clearly for oneself, one will drop all seeking naturally because what is there to find? Everything cou wish is right here under our nose, it is what we are already. We need not to [purify any thought or emotion about ourselves, because they just appear and disappear in this openness of being that we are.

We can never attain the ultimate. It is no achievement. It can never be reached through meditation or any other practice that is about achieving something, because that which is right there with you when feeling unaware and disturbed by the mind, that which knows that is the pure awareness in which all of life unfolds itself. Seeing this again and again is all we need to do to shift our experience from the personal identity to being complete pure freedom.

If we just relax our focus on all the contents of our mind, let them be completely as if they have no meaning of themselves (which they don’t) then you’ll be resting as you are, again and again. This will make you see in all situations that what you are trying to reach is that which is trying to reach it. You are already perfect and free. You’ve never not been free!

Love,
Bentinho

[QUOTE=Bentinho Massaro;22496]
…I saw that nothing needed to be done and that it is an illusion to think that we need to create or go through any sort of state in order to ‘reach’ the ultimate. …We need not to [purify any thought or emotion about ourselves, because they just appear and disappear in this openness of being that we are.[/QUOTE]

Enlightened one, please tell us what is the difference between a murderer and a monk?

[QUOTE=Bentinho Massaro;22496]
We can never attain the ultimate. It is no achievement. It can never be reached through meditation or any other practice that is about achieving something, [/QUOTE]

So then, should we abandon our yoga and meditation? If not, why not?

[QUOTE=Bentinho Massaro;22496]
You are already perfect and free. You’ve never not been free!
[/QUOTE]

What is freedom?

tell us what is the difference between a murderer and a monk?

There is none. Only the difference you appoint to them by the means of labels. But these labels too are just empty of substance. That does not mean we should all become murderers because “it doesn’t matter anyway.” It’s just that we don’t have to be anything in particular. All our actions currently come forth from a constant state of becoming. When we shift that state to a state of being, our actions will reflect our peace and balanced overview.

So then, should we abandon our yoga and meditation? If not, why not?

Whether you abondon it or not does not make a difference. That’s my ‘point’, it just does not matter what it is you are doing or what circumstances you are in. As long as we see a difference in value of every single situation, they will all look like individual, separate situations and actions to us. We will not see them for what they truly are, we will see them as the labels we appoint them. Thus they have power over us, or so it seems in our experience.

If you wish to shift your awareness beyond that of being dependent on circumstance, doing, differences, separation and labels, you only need to relax all these points of references you have made for yourself. All these thoughts only need to be left alone as they are. Don’t try to rid yourself of them, for that would be another action coming from a state of becoming someone better. Instead, just let them be as they are without any interference. Let the crazy monkey mind run wild, give it free rein and see that it has nothing to do with you and that each thought has no individual value or identity. In simply facing eveyr situation and thought/emotion as it is, will make you see that it has no power over us in any way possible. Even if you feel completely enraged with anger till the very bones of your body, that still is just a coming and going of pure empty freedom. It has never been anything in itself.

When you see this you realize that you don’t need to change anything and you don’t need not change anything either, it simply doesn’t make a difference to awareness and your state of being. From this state of knowing what you are and knowing what everything is, naturally comes the change that is most beneficial to everything, even though it does not matter ultimately. You just become a part of nature’s innate intelligence.

Much like animals and plants are simply being at ease as they are, so will you flow along with the way of things, but(!) with great power, potential and utter clarity that goes hand in hand with clear insight into the nature of reality.

What is freedom?

You tell me? There has never not been freedom. Freedom is all there is. To say it is something, to define it as something would imply that we see it as a state onto itself, separate from something else or separate from reality. But it is not that at all. Everything as it is is pure freedom, we just need to see it. It is nothing in particular, no description fits it for it does not stand apart from any of these descriptions nor from anything else. It’s simply everything. Everything you say to me everything you think about anything, that’s all freedom.

Love,
Bentinho.

Thanks, Bentinho

Yes, thank you, Bentinho. There really is no point in trying to reason with someone who would say that there’s no difference between a murderer and a monk. Of course the differences are many and obvious, but we know that, to you, that’s all just illusion. Or is it [I]de[/I]lusion? A word to the wise. Peace.

Dear Asuri,

Then please try to explain to me the difference between a murderer and a monk without using any mental label, without using any judgment…
For only that could proof that there is an [I]actual[/I] difference between them beyond the realm of your thoughts about them.

Imagine you have a murderer on your left and a monk on your right. What is the existential difference between these two human forms, right here and now as they stand here? - And remember, without mental descriptions, because that’s just what we [I]think[/I] about them.

You are welcome Kizen.

Love,
B.

Bentinho,

I’m afraid I have to reject your premise, because it is absurd to think that anyone could explain anything without using mental labels or judgement. Language itself consists of mental labels, and what communication can occur without the use of judgement? Not only that, there is no need for proof, because by their very definitions, there are huge differences between a murderer and a monk. These differences are not only obvious, these are real, and if you choose to ignore reality, you do so at your own peril.

I’m sure it’s true that, on the level of the purusa, there is no difference between the murderer and the monk. But this discussion is really about something you wrote earlier:

it is an illusion to think that we need to create or go through any sort of state in order to ‘reach’ the ultimate

I think that most people would agree that the murderer and the monk are quite different in their abiity to realize the “ultimate”, and that the murderer will have to pass through many “states” in order to reach the level of the monk. And furthermore that the monk’s proximity to the “ultimate” is due to the mental and other disciplines that he practices, i.e. yoga.

what happens if the murderer and the monk are the same person

Well Prasad, that’s not even far from the truth as I see it.

I think that most people would agree that the murderer and the monk are quite different in their ability to realize the “ultimate”, and that the murderer will have to pass through many “states” in order to reach the level of the monk. And furthermore that the monk’s proximity to the “ultimate” is due to the mental and other disciplines that he practices, i.e. yoga.
Yes most people would agree with that because they blind themselves believing it is arduous and difficult to recognize awareness. It is very very simple.

You see, when you were looking in the mirror at the age of 7, 14 and today, what’s the real difference? Sure your body has changed, surely the labels of people’s opinions about you have changed, but that very something which sees itself in the mirror, which is aware of himself standing there. Has that feeling, that something aged? Has it changed along with your body and labels? It might seem that way if you do not dare to look deeper simply because of a stupid example between a murderer and a monk.

I am not denying that their actions and way of acting are different, I am simply saying that if you look at them without judgment, without fear of being a murderer yourself and without the desire to be saintly in your thoughts and actions yourself, if you can let go of what society has created taught you, you will see from clarity and love that both the murderer and the monk are very much alike. In fact, they are equal in their presence. How else could you ever “love your neighbor like thyself” if you do not take the courage to see beyond your own fears and mental judgments about what is right and what is wrong?
[U]
But to return to your statement that they both have to go through very different stages and why that is simply not the case:[/U]
Surely that will be the case if they start to study yoga and take the path itself and every single description very seriously. In such a case the murderer would have to start purifying his actions and thought and emotions before he would belief to be able to see anything. But that is not necessary my friend. It is a mis-assumption to belief that we need to change ourselves in any sort of way in order to recognize awareness. That ability is equally present in anyone.


So if I would ask the murderer and the monk the following, they would both be able to equally recognize awareness immediately:

"Dear Mr. Monk and Mr. Murderer,
We have gathered here today to recognize awareness and see whether your past actions and the definitions people give you in their heads are any sort of help or obstruction to being able to recognize/identify awareness.

So here is a question to you both: What is it that right now knows you exist? By what is it you know you are here listening to me, right now?

Now, this sense of being aware, this ability to recognize awareness, try to apply it when you are killing someone mr. murderer, so next time you are killing someone and all these states of mind and emotions are rushing through you, just stop to notice, if even for just a second, what it is that is knowing this situation. Ask yourself again: by what do I know I am here doing this? By what force do I know that I even have emotions, thoughts and states of mind?

As for you mr. Monk: Next time you go off to safe flies from the pond or meditate on bliss and love, whenever you are in that state of bliss and love, ask yourself this: What is is that knows that I am right here right now feeling blissful? By what do I know I am here doing meditation feeling so fulfilled?

Then dear mr. murderer and mr. monk, you will decisively see that it is not the states and the feelings that define what you are, but that awareness which is aware of every single state. And it is just as present in you little devil as it is in you little saint!"


Really Asuri, what state is there to describe and go to? All states are simply appearing and disappearing in awareness. We can all recognize awareness because it is what we are and it is beyond all the states you can cultivate by means of meditation or being a monk, or following yoga or any other system of states. All can equally realize awareness in every situation simply because awareness is beyond both and it is everyones nature equally without devision.

The only one seeing a division between them is you Asuri. And everybody else who is relying on their conventional judgments. Awareness is completely unaffected by that difference, it’s eye remains motionless in the face of your fear, desire and system of values. It sees everything as a single equal expression of itself, it knows no judgments. Truth remains truth regardless of your discrimination of murderers as opposed to saints.

There simply is no fundamental difference between anyone. All is an expression of awareness and in itself every form is empty of value or of an independent nature outside awareness. The only value that thoughts, emotions and actions wear, is those you appoint to them by believing in their descriptions/labels.

Now, I understand that it is somewhat frightful to let go of your beliefs about good and bad, because what values are left then? Should I just become a murderer because it is all equal?? Of course not, you will instead be naturally peaceful and beneficial to everyone. You will find if you go this way there is only one value and it rules everything: Unconditional Self Love. I say self love but by that I mean love for everything, since all is Self.

Love,
Bentinho.

Really now, Bentinho, please do not patronize me. You act as if you are the only one who has ever heard of these things. This advaita happy talk is really old news, you’ve just re-branded it. It’s full of nice words and pretty thoughts, but for practical purposes, these things don’t have much value, because they ignore reality. Take for example this bit of imagination:

Now, this sense of being aware, this ability to recognize awareness, try to apply it when you are killing someone mr. murderer, so next time you are killing someone and all these states of mind and emotions are rushing through you, just stop to notice, if even for just a second, what it is that is knowing this situation. Ask yourself again: by what do I know I am here doing this? By what force do I know that I even have emotions, thoughts and states of mind?

The reality it that such a person completely identifies with his thoughts and emotions, is completely caught up in them, and will never stop to notice “awareness”. He is in a much different state than the monk who is in control of his thoughts and emotions, and the ability of the two to discriminate true reality is much different. If you think about it, it’s the murderer who needs this sort of thing more than the monk, because any monk worth his salt has already heard some version of it.

Why not take the example a step further. What’s the difference between and man and say, a buffalo or a scorpion? Under your theory, none. The purusa is the same for all embodied beings. But are they all equal in their ability to recognize what you call awareness? I don’t think so. The soul has to pass through different stages of evolution in order to come to that realization.

What I’m really curious about, is why do you post here on this forum, when you continually denigrate yoga practices and preach things that are diametrically opposed to the teaching of yoga? Aren’t you really just fishing for customers for your own website?

Hello Asuri,

I am sorry if I have offended you, that was not my intention.

About the practicality of it: it can be very practical what I say, if you start applying it and seeing it in your own experience. But before that can happen you will probably need to acknowledge it as a possible truth, even if it is just for a little bit. If you are very resistant to what I say, than you won’t be able to see past that resistance if you do not recognize truth in what I say. Then what I say simply is not for you, maybe at some other time, maybe not. :slight_smile:

About the example: you are getting hung up on details and you are missing the point. I was simply illustrating how both CAN in fact recognize their awareness. I am not saying that every murderer once they hear me talk will bow at my feet and say: “Yes you are right from now onb I will recognize my awareness!”

I was simply saying that everyones ability to do so is equal. Now whether or not to do it is their choice of course and yes a monk is more likely to accept it because it is of his interest. But belief me, many many monks identify just as much with their identity as the murderer. Sometimes even more in my opinion. I was only trying to point out that whatever your identity is, you are only free when you are free and that time comes when you start to be as you are, without concepts of any kind, including differences and different states of evolution, looking important to you.

For example, in your own case, do you not feel the intensity of your belief in all these things? Do you see how someone like me can make you feel anger or frustration when I am saying something that is not in line with the evolution yoga has described in so much detail?

I am not against yoga. I must admit I have had my period in which I did need to take my distance from it and if in that process I have offended anyone I am honestly sorry. But at this point I have no resistance against yoga. I do see it’s flaw’s in the way it is being used by many people today though.

I do see many weak spots, many things of which I would not have taught because it is misleading and it will make people go and take a detour of many many years to find what they already had all along. And why do they take this detour? Solely for one reason: They have chosen and/or are taught to belief in concepts about who we they are and what they need to be in order to arrive at themselves. Isn’t that just contradicting? They say yes you are non-dual and free, but first do this and this and this. While I see in my own experience and in that of many others with whom I talk to, that it need not be like that. If you can just let go of all you have been taught for a moment or two, repeatedly throughout the day, you will access a field beyond all concepts and beliefs. A presence that is never affected by belief in cause and effect, in evolution, or by any other belief. Just start seeing that as much as you can instead of following after beliefs about who you are, for beliefs are always flawed. Truth is not experienced due to believing in beliefs.

My message is simply this: You don’t have to take on any belief, nor get rid of any one, in order to know yourself as you are now. Which is already perfect and enlightened. Enlightenment is not something you do or create. It is simply seeing what has always already been here.

Do you think when Buddha got enlightened, that he created some state that wasn’t there before? That would be silly. What he was looking for was already there all along, but he simply sat down, completely tired of all his years of intense practice, and all his beliefs and thoughts and emotions and fears and desires came up (described by Buddhists as the demons) but he had no longer any interest to mingle with them. He saw no value, no power, no individual importance in them any more. He simply rested as he was. Doing this he realized the awareness that was unaffected by anything whatsoever, had already been there all along. He simply could not see it because he believed in all the states and points of view that came up. Even the spiritual ones, or maybe especially the spiritual beliefs and points of view are those blinding us most, for they are the ones we most intensely belief in as a person.

So as for your last question, why am I here? I just go with the tide. I feel there may be a few individuals who actually benefit from what I am sharing. That is enough of a reason to keep on posting whenever I feel to do so.

Now if any member of the yogaforums.com staff feels I am denigrating this forum or yoga in particular, they are free to say so. It will not offend me and I will simply stop posting. It’s as simple as that. Either I am here, or I am not. Either you are here, or you are not :). there’s nothing to decide mentally, it just comes as it comes.

Love,
B.

But belief me, many many monks identify just as much with their identity as the murderer. Sometimes even more in my opinion.

How many monks do you you know?

I have met my share. :slight_smile:

The problem for you, Bentinho, is not that I don’t see the truth of what you say, it is that I also see the lie.

Hey Asuri,

Well as interesting and nicely put as that sentence sounds, there is no problem for me Asuri, lies or no lies. If you are bothered by whatever it is you think to be a lie, then that is all there is to it. But feel free to elaborate, question or expose. I have nothing to hide or defend. The way I see it there never has been anything to defend nor anything to defend against. That’s all just a part of the Big Joke.

Love,
B.

This thread is amusing. What great a difference can be being in a fight, and watching it form the outside ! Which explains the relativity of our perception.

It was fun to see Asuri making a stand - watching myself form the outside.
Both of them are right.

Bentinho’s position, while true, it is totally useless. In the same time, it is the only useful thing.

Asuri’s position, it is also true, and it is very useful. In the same time, it is ultimately useless.

Perhaps both of them think what I say, is just playing with words. But no. Words can be only used this way, in a desperate attempt to describe the whole. Read between the lines, between the words.

In the mean time, I chose the second position, even if it is of relative truth, it is closer to me. Bentinho has made his choice, because that’s closer to him. He is blessed, but without learning the usefulness of useless things, he will not become a good teacher.

Ha. This was good yoga ! (Puts himself to rest)

Bentinho has made his choice, because that’s closer to him. He is blessed, but without learning the usefulness of useless things, he will not become a good teacher.
Haha nice one. However Hubert, I would not have been blessed by my own choice if I would not have experienced the usefulness of uselessness. Which remains useless in the end really. Be careful making presumptions about someone Hubert. It is only because I got absolutely tired and depressed of suffering from the useless that I gave up seeking after it. It is not like I got blessed from above without having experienced anything. I have made a choice, that’s all there is to being blessed.

Being a good teacher depends more on the student than on the teacher. Usually to those who are open and ready to receive a teaching, the teacher is judged as a good one, and by those who are not ready or do not suit that teaching at that time, judge the teacher as incapable. To the handful of people who are already listening to me it seems to work quite well and amazingly immediate. Which is great. I will continue to learn and develop my ways of expressing what I know. Thanks for your opinion about me as a teacher though haha. You are honest :).

Much of love,
B.

I can make any presumption. The worst thing to happen is that I am wrong. One who is not prepared to be wrong, cannot ever learn anything because the new knowledge always discards some of the old.

I did not want to say that you got what you got without effort, but I realize it appears that I did. Yet, you expect us to easily and effortlessly end up where you are, after getting absolutley tired and depressed of the useless you finally gave up seeking after. Perhaps, we are not yet absolutely tired and depressed yet. And if this is the case, your very own example shows that you should let us get tired and depressed so we can finally arrive to a better state. And how do we become tired and depressed ? By seeking the useless things … which is exactly what we are doing. I say, we are perfectly fine … at least based on this reasoning. :slight_smile:

As about your teacher skills and my student skills (supposed relationship) - they do not matter while we both do our best.

Perhaps, we are not yet absolutely tired and depressed yet. And if this is the case, your very own example shows that you should let us get tired and depressed so we can finally arrive to a better state. And how do we become tired and depressed ? By seeking the useless things … which is exactly what we are doing. I say, we are perfectly fine … at least based on this reasoning.
Haha you have a good and funny intellect Hubert. In many ways it is very similar to my own I must say.

What you stated above is very true, yet it is a mind-game to keep you occupied, to push the acquiring of truth further away into some projected future. It is the classic example of the intellect applying a principle of truth to a situation in which it seems to ‘fit’ or apply to perfectly, yet it’s true meaning is misused since it is not captured or understood by thought. Allow me to explain.

A phrase or principle of truth that has been (mis)used many times before by the intellect, is: “Everything is perfect as it is.” or : “accept everything.”

These phrases indicate a principle of truth, a characteristic of truth if you will, yet it cannot be applied in the way the intellect likes to apply things. This is the exact same process by which religions are formed and at some point inevitable escalate into extremism and provocative systems of belief.

[U]So let’s take the principle or characteristic of truth, of a seeker seeking after the useless stuff in order to reach a state of being tired with the useless:[/U]

What you say is true: You are all perfectly fine, I am fine, you are fine, everybody is fine. But does that change anything? Is that what you wish for deep down? Perhaps it is because you are not presented the option to expand your experience big time right in front of you as we speak, that you feel fine with the way things are now. But whether it is true in relation to our situation or not; it remains plain reasoning.

Yes you do arrive at being tired of the useless stuff by looking after the useless stuff. But here follows both the catch and your opportunity to take that leap: We need the light of awareness in order to get fed up with the useless. If we do not learn to see things as they are already along the way, then we will never get tired and fed up with the useless.

You see, I would still be intensely indulging myself in the useless if I did not use the light of awareness while still being engaged with the useless. It is not merely by being engaged with the useless that we become tired of it, it need to be coupled with seeing how things truly [I]are[/I] useless while still indulging in and after the useless. So it is not enough to be in the process, [I]we also need to see this process of following after the useless, as actually being useless, while still being in the process.[/I]

[U]So while the intellect can justify itself by saying:[/U] [I]“we must get fed up with the useless by chasing after the useless, so what to do, we are doing just fine”[/I], while true in relation to its own level of occurrence and experience, this will only keep open perception at a, for the intellect comfortable, distance. Constantly pushing the experience of liberation further down the fictitious line of ‘time’.

Now, I am not suggesting you are blinding yourself to the above degree, but it is something to look out for. It is what we say to ourselves internally to justify our behavior, that overlooks and keeps us missing the openness of perception that is right here, free from belief.

[B]We can choose not to believe in what we say to ourselves internally[/B]! Let is just all play out. let the monkey mind play its games, we do not have to change or alter any of it, for that would only give it illusory power of being something real or important. Instead we leave it alone altogether. We do not suppress it either because that would again indicate that the monkey-mind has power or substance of its own, but it has none. It has no importance or value, so we can just be at rest with whatever arises as thought, speech and emotion. We do not have to act, react or conclude anything based on the arising and dissolving stream of thoughts. We can just rest as we are, even while the stream is active. This is done simply by not believing in anything that arises. Remaining perceptually open like this will introduce and familiarize us with who we truly are underneath and throughout every experience.

Thinking about spiritual truths and sentences and applying them to our lives mentally, justifying or condemning things as they appear either internally or externally, will keep us running around in circles even if it makes us appear more spiritual on the level of experiences (states of mind, meditation, etc.).

So I would kindly suggest you to observe whatever your mind has to say that excuses itself from being free. [I]Often remarks that belong to this category are those that include a certain sense of time-span.[/I] For example, we can justify or condemn our existence by applying the thought: “Oh this is all my personal karma, I just need to take it, someday I will be free, but only when my wheel has stopped and all is purified.”

[B]But really [U]any sort of thought[/U] that justifies you not opening up completely to what’s here right now…,[/B] [I]even when presented to you by someone in a very obvious and practical way[/I] (not necessarily referring to myself), [B]…should not be believed in.[/B]

The behavior of putting things off, keeping them at bay using a belief in time and space, will only deny your birthright to experience the most simple and natural experience there is: being yourself, exactly as you are, without believing in thoughts of condemnation or justification of any kind.

Whenever you recognize truth as truth, whether read, spoken by someone, or experienced for yourself, in that moment accept it fully and be the openness of that present moment. Just fully accept that truth without hesitation and consideration. Consideration is intellect and intellect is time. And time, as you may know by now, is illusion; blinding.

[I]You may start to notice from now on,[/I] [I]that whenever you recognize something as truth, the mind or the intellect will immediately have something to say about it[/I], or about how or when to apply it for yourself, or why you should or should not do so and why it is or is not right to do so at this time. We have trained ourselves so well in studying spirituality, that even when in the face of plain and simple truth about our true nature, we will immediately try to explain that openness to truth to the structural reference points of our concepts of spirituality. We will say: Ah yes, I recognize that as the truth, however, according to this and such, it belongs in this place and comes only after this state of mind, so I am not here yet.

… How can you ever not be here already?

Everything that indicates a strong or dependent sense of being time-bound belongs to the intellect and could be seen as false or empty of truth/nature/benefit. So while these justifications and condemnations are not good or bad, there can be the choice not to belief in them even as they appear.

Love,
Bentinho