I like the argumentative part of your post. There is good thinking there. I cannot say that about the links you give, because the name of the site is provocative, but also, selective. A lot of people will avoid it only because it’s name, than, how can be an unbiased place ?
[QUOTE=Hubert;15173]When we think high of ourselves, than pride, and the feeling of being someone follows, and with that, suffering knocks on our door.[/QUOTE]
Finding God is as easy or as difficult as you make it. (thanx Alix)
I am God is not the same as I AM BRUCE ALMIGHTY.
Keep searching.
[QUOTE=Hubert;15183]I like the argumentative part of your post. There is good thinking there. I cannot say that about the links you give, because the name of the site is provocative, but also, selective. A lot of people will avoid it only because it’s name, than, how can be an unbiased place ?[/QUOTE]
Well, that Jesus site is the [B]ONLY[/B] one that never banned me. So that was where my posts end up for the links. But don’t get caught up in who says what - look at what is said if you wish to be truth based
Let me give you a little more background about myself and online censorship.
Out of the 300+ forums I have been on, I have been banned from about 70% of them due to prejudice. The vast majority of these forums have been dedicated to personal improvement as well as spiritual studies. Yet I have never had one fight or was abusive with anyone.
What was my crime?
Searching for truth.
Now with Christian forums it is 100% ban rate and Buddhist forums is 95% ban and atheist forums it is about 95% ban.
But this ignorance is universal ‘human’ in nature.
Psychologist William James once said, “A great many people believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.”
Let me give you an example that has happened to me in the past.
In the bible it says “Test everything; hold fast to what is good; abstain from every form of evil,” (1 Thess. 5:21)
Taking from Christian, Buddhist and most other religions of the world I discuss such tools in my posts no matter their source. When I talked about this ‘concept of testing’ and related it to the Buddha’s tool of testing doctrine, but included this bible quote above, I was banned by the Buddhists. Yet the Buddha also encouraged testing of his teachings before adopting those teachings.
At a Christian forum, when I brought up the Buddha encourages testing just as it was said in the bible, the Christian forums banned me.
Then at the atheist forums when I mention the Bible and the Buddha both offered the tools of testing to help determine truth, the atheist sites ban me.
Yet, all three groups like the idea of testing for truth, as long as this idea comes from them and not from anyone else…many people believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.
Alan Watts use to say we define ourselves by our enemies. We define ourselves by what we are not. He used the example of ‘Beatniks and Squares’ which were the in fad opposites back in his day.
So of course it is natural for these groups to view themselves as polar opposites and enemies of sorts. Same as the ‘left and right’ does in American politics.
We should always be interested in finding truth and peace. If our way is not working then some other way may help. It is good to test and see the results and not get caught up in prejudice blocking the way.
For with such tests, ‘the proof of the pudding will be in the eating’ and decisions on how to live will not be left only to your ego, but will be grounded in peace.
The three unwholesome roots of delusions, greed and hate are very basic to a a Buddhist practice. Out of these three, delusion is the foundational root, for without seeing delusions for what they are, you cannot distinguish the other two unwholesome roots of greed and hate.
People suffer from delusions in all form and not just deity worship. Atheism, while freeing ones mind to think, but it does not guarantee one thinks right and acts right. This is the importance of replacing wrong religious beliefs with right thinking and right living.
For instance, I was banned from many ‘so called’ Buddhist sites such as Esangha, Tricycle, Shambhala, Buddha Chat, 12 step Buddhists, Sangha-Pauahtun, eBuddhism, etc even though I have a keen interest in Buddhism.
Some people claiming to be Buddhist think all they have to is shave their heads, adopt a silly name, be a vegetarians and burn incense to be a Buddhists…all the while they are doing great harm to others, Which is how it is with many Buddhist forums that are ‘for profit’ and run by ‘spiritually sick’ individuals. Currently, it is a sad state of affairs with such online Buddhist groups.
I’ve been on dozens of Christian forums and I have perfect record at the Christian forums…100% banned…and I was a Christian myself at that time I tried to join them years ago.
I was able to finagle my way back into one Christian forum though:
http://www.christianforums.com/index.php
But I could only stay if I claimed to be an atheist…and I do not post much and keep my mouth shut…and if I do post it has to be something non consequential. Also I am not allowed to post with the Christians. I can only post to the atheists.
I like that forum as it reminds me of the ‘sickness of attachment,’ so that is why I put up with all the prejudice. At that forum you can ‘buy your armor’ to outfit your avatar to shield you from evil and ‘trade blessings’ with each other…well you can see how much I like avatars.
The Billy Graham and Catholic forums banned me after my first posts…then they solicit me for months on end asking for money. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry?
Charity? Humility? Reciprocity? Freedom of Faith? Truth? And of course…Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself???
I’m afraid Christians don’t practice what they preach…at least at their forums. (Even the Buddhist whose mantra is ‘Do No Harm’ ban me 95% of the time at their forums, so they are only a little better than the Christians.)
Atheist forums are not much better at freethinking. Been banned at evil bible dot com, ethical atheist, Internet infidels, X-Christians and others.
How do I find peace with all this prejudice?
By knowing
“With the same material one man builds a palace and another only a hovel.” Russell Cromwell.
And accepting people are not perfect, nor am I perfect which is just as the Taoists tell us: “fleas come with the dog.”
Always remember…the difference between an authority and an authoritarian is this.
An authority speaks from a place of truth and such speaks as an authority. Whereas an authoritarian rules by fear and not by truth.
For the truth stands on it own and the authoritarian stands on their ego.
I am retired from such writings now. Too busy with health and survival issues. We are entering a new phase of life as we can see our world decompose around us. I did forgot one thing though, that is apropos for this thread…
It seems the vast majority of humans need to worship some sort of God to keep them inline. Religion is just a prepackaged set of morals so the best thing to do is to just pick one and get to work with your spiritual studies.
For as an old Hindu wise man once told me…“Just as water floes downhill without effort but requires outside forces and energy to make it move uphill. So the human consciousness falls to its lowest levels of the senses without effort and energies to make our consciousness gravitate to more than our base desires.”
I spent some time with yogatattwa upanishad last night.
Let me make this quote:
[I]3. The Grandfather (Brahma) having saluted the Lord of the universe (Vishnu) and having paid Him due respects, asked Him (thus): “Pray, explain to us the truth of Yoga which includes in it the eight subservients.”[/I]
[I]4. To which Hrisikesha (the Lord of the senses or Vishnu) replied thus: “Listen. I shall explain its truth. All souls are immersed in happiness and sorrow through the snare of Maya.[/I]
[I]5-6. Kaivalya, the supreme seat, is the path which gives them emancipation, which rends asunder the snare of Maya, which is the destroyer of birth, old age and disease and which enables one to overcome death. There are no other paths to salvation. Those who go round the net of Shastras are deluded by that knowledge.[/I]
[I]7. It is impossible even for the Devas to describe that indescribable state. How can that which is self-shining be illuminated by the Shastras ?[/I]
[I]8. That only which is without parts and stains and which is quiescent beyond all and free from decay becomes the Jiva (self) on account of the results of past virtues and sins.[/I]
[I]9. How did that which is the seat of Paramatman, is eternal and above the state of all existing things and is of the form of wisdom and without stains attain the state of Jiva ?[/I]
[I]10. A bubble arose in it as in water and in this (bubble) arose Ahankara. To it arose a ball (of body) made of the five (elements) and bound by Dhatus.[/I]
[I]11. Know that to be Jiva which is associated with happiness and misery and hence is the term Jiva applied to Paramatman which is pure.[/I]
[I]12-13. That Jiva is considered to be the Kevala (alone) which is freed from the stains of passion, anger, fear, delusion, greed, pride, lust, birth, death, miserliness, swoon, giddiness, hunger, thirst, ambition, shame, fright, heart-burning, grief and gladness.[/I]
[I]14. So I shall tell you the means of destroying (these) sins.[B] How could Jnana capable of giving Moksha arise certainly without Yoga ?[/B][/I]
[I][B]15. And even Yoga becomes powerless in (securing) Moksha when it is devoid of Jnana. So the aspirant after emancipation should practise (firmly) both Yoga and Jnana.[/B][/I]
[B][/B]
Jnana is right knowledge, but not the ultimate knowledge of God, because that is Moksha. Jnana here stands only for having the right ideas about the highest truths, and the way towards them. Because of this, talking about divinity, and the path towards divinity is not useless. Comprehension, using even the limited tool of worldly language, is important. If it wasn’t there would be no vedas, scriptures, at all.
[quote=PatR;15199]Finding God is as easy or as difficult as you make it. (thanx Alix)
I am God is not the same as I AM BRUCE ALMIGHTY.
Keep searching.[/quote]
Alix meant that well, but as you put it, it belittles the greatness of the path of yoga. If it that easy, than why do we need yoga at all ? Why do we need yama, niyama, asana, pranayama, pratyahara, dhyana ?
[quote=PatR;15170]An organ taken out of a body is alive just like the body, what keeps this organ alive ? probabably the cells that make it up, a cell is said to carry out life on its own, so does that mean a cell has a individual soul or that organ has an individual soul ? the answer is no, coz every individual soul comes with the package of karma, sins, heaven, hell etc. That would simply increase the burden for God. So what is keeping the cell or that organ alive ? Miracles ? I don’t believe in miracles. It is the very same thing that is keeping us alive & that is keeping that organ or that cell alive as well & it is nothing but our individual ego (ahamkara) & not the individual soul (jivataman or miracles). The cell is alive so it is conscious but it doesn’t have the required consciousness level to realise the ego that is keeping it alive, but we humans can. It is our ego that makes us think I am kindness, I am love, I am peace, I am body, I am here, I am mind, I am soul.
The thought of Saguna Brahman has vanished from my mind coz I have no reasons to believe that I have a soul that is keeping me alive. It is just my ego that tells me what I think I am. If Saguna Brahman doesn’t exist for me than where does that leave me ? But pretty soon i’ll get hungry & i’ll do the dualistic activity of eating or i’ll get tired & i’ll do the dualistic activity of sleeping with that i have slipped to the grossest level of consciousness , annamaya kosha, so obviously I can’t say I’m God. It is only in the nirvikalpa samadhi that i can make such claims, but still I have problems believing in a jivataman or an individual soul or the saguna brahman.
I think the only logical option left for me is Karma Yoga.[/quote]
I am at difficulty following you. At a first read, this post seemed quite a good one. But I still am at diffculty following the logic what leaves you only the option of karma yoga.
Your view of cells making the organ alive, is an unrealized materialist imagination. The cells are alive, yes. But what made them form an organ ? What makes them specialize into cells of particular qualities from the original stem cells ? What is the wisdom governing the processes of a single cell, where molecules of proteins consisting of hundreds and thousands of aminoacids work in ways that are not comprehended by the brightest minds of today ? It is a superficial illusion, wishful thinking of materialist scientists that the living body is like a machine, a very complex one, but still a machine, where everything what happnes is result of complex interactions based on the laws of of organic chemistry and physics. In all it’s manifastetion, even the smallest living creature, a solitary cell, shows such wisdom in activity and design that the best thing an honest scientist can say is the following: WE DON’T KNOW. This is the truth. They do not know it. The theories about world evolution and life, are just as silly as the imaginations of earlier ages where they thought the Earth to be flat.
Science sees the surface. There is order in that surface. Surley, whatever governs life, it does using the laws of the material environment. There are no miracles. But life itself, is a miracle. Let’s analyze a living cell, and the next moment, when the same cell is dead. What is the difference ? Scientist say, there appaered an error in it’s functioning, and the whole, very complex process had to stop. The clockwork has been broken … but than, why can’t we fix it ? Ever heard a of a cell being reanimated, after it has been dead ? If there is but a stopping of it’s function, why it is decaying ? Oh, they will say, it is a chain reaction, and it is unstoppable. It just crumbles like a card castle. But the truth is, that from a dead cell, prana (life enegy, of what’s existence is unrecognized by science) has been withdrawn. Prana is what governs the delicate processes of life, through the 72000 nadis of the life body (pranamaya kosha). The existence of prana is not a miracle, It is a fact for advanced yogis.
Is prana, God ? Yes and no. Prana is just another, more subtle level of existence. The vital body, pranamaya kosha, is kept alive through currents of the world’s prana. It happens only in the mineral world that we are bound by our bodies, and these bodies are built and sustained by universal currents of prana, through a local prana formation. Surely there is a pranamaya kosha of our own … but that is absorbed back to the universal ocean of prana, three days after our death.
So pranamaya kosha just like the mineral body, is a manifestation of God, and not yet God. Or, it is God like my hand is also me, without me being a hand.
Hubert, why do we need yoga
Imagine a seed, a seed sprouts from the inside
we use yoga to thin the veil of the outside. We find what we are not, and then hopefully this in turn helps us to find what we are. The thinned shell of the seed may be easier to crack. As the mind stills it becomes easier to see things for what they are. The true essence of the seed is never lost, we only believe it is. Yoga is not the only path to this understanding. Jesus did not teach the 8 limbs unless I am mistaken. Many enlightened people do not teach the 8 limbs, Eckhart tolle does not. I know I am of the divine and I know the divine is within me. Now being at peace with that, I guess that is the true union.
my best to you brother
Neil
[QUOTE=Hubert;15223]I am at difficulty following you. At a first read, this post seemed quite a good one. But I still am at diffculty following the logic what leaves you only the option of karma yoga.
Your view of cells making the organ alive, is an unrealized materialist imagination. The cells are alive, yes. But what made them form an organ ? What makes them specialize into cells of particular qualities from the original stem cells ? What is the wisdom governing the processes of a single cell, where molecules of proteins consisting of hundreds and thousands of aminoacids work in ways that are not comprehended by the brightest minds of today ? It is a superficial illusion, wishful thinking of materialist scientists that the living body is like a machine, a very complex one, but still a machine, where everything what happnes is result of complex interactions based on the laws of of organic chemistry and physics. In all it’s manifastetion, even the smallest living creature, a solitary cell, shows such wisdom in activity and design that the best thing an honest scientist can say is the following: WE DON’T KNOW. This is the truth. They do not know it. The theories about world evolution and life, are just as silly as the imaginations of earlier ages where they thought the Earth to be flat.
Science sees the surface. There is order in that surface. Surley, whatever governs life, it does using the laws of the material environment. There are no miracles. But life itself, is a miracle. Let’s analyze a living cell, and the next moment, when the same cell is dead. What is the difference ? Scientist say, there appaered an error in it’s functioning, and the whole, very complex process had to stop. The clockwork has been broken … but than, why can’t we fix it ? Ever heard a of a cell being reanimated, after it has been dead ? If there is but a stopping of it’s function, why it is decaying ? Oh, they will say, it is a chain reaction, and it is unstoppable. It just crumbles like a card castle. But the truth is, that from a dead cell, prana (life enegy, of what’s existence is unrecognized by science) has been withdrawn. Prana is what governs the delicate processes of life, through the 72000 nadis of the life body (pranamaya kosha). The existence of prana is not a miracle, It is a fact for advanced yogis.
Is prana, God ? Yes and no. Prana is just another, more subtle level of existence. The vital body, pranamaya kosha, is kept alive through currents of the world’s prana. It happens only in the mineral world that we are bound by our bodies, and these bodies are built and sustained by universal currents of prana, through a local prana formation. Surely there is a pranamaya kosha of our own … but that is absorbed back to the universal ocean of prana, three days after our death.
So pranamaya kosha just like the mineral body, is a manifestation of God, and not yet God. Or, it is God like my hand is also me, without me being a hand.[/QUOTE]
An excellent explanation Hubert, but sorry you didn’t get my point.
It is really funny how some people believe the Upanishads when they say that it is the Prana that keeps the body alive, but when the same Upanishads say that your body or all the 5 Koshas, our ideas, dreams, intellect, the soul or our friends, family, the entire world around you, are nothing but just objects that you see on the screen of your mind & the mind itself is nothing but a stream of thoughts don’t exist, when the Upanishads say it is just Maya and nothing exists in reality but God, people don’t believe it.
This is selectivity at it’s best.
I can get as close as possible to God by going to Holy Communion.
[quote=PatR;15234]An excellent explanation Hubert, but sorry you didn’t get my point.
It is really funny how some people believe the Upanishads when they say that it is the Prana that keeps the body alive, but when the same Upanishads say that your body or [B]all the 5 Koshas[/B], our ideas, dreams, intellect, the soul or our friends, family, the entire world around you, are nothing but just objects that you see on the screen of your mind & the mind itself is nothing but a stream of thoughts don’t exist, when the Upanishads say it is just Maya and nothing exists in reality but God, people don’t believe it.
This is selectivity at it’s best.[/quote]
No, I just stopped before going further to the higher sheets. It does not matter if what you say it’s true if it is required to be accepted blindly. The usefulness of such a thought is minimal. Go and tell a person who lives his earthly life, and isn’t particularly concerned by spiritual things, that all his/her life is just maya, illusion. By bluntly stating this truth, what do you aquire ? You’ll just alienate him/her from everything that has the God stamp on it. The highest truths are not for everyone, just as the theory of relativity is not for a first grader. This does not mean to keep these truth hidden, but they cannot be enforced by any outer authority. Isn’t this why many decent people are alianeted from organized religions ?
So, I believe what it is said about maya, while also knowing that this knowledge for me is not factual, not first hand expereince as it is not for the majority of people living today. It is misleading to say that even higher stages of existance, the subtler bodies, are also maya, while the road is clearly their personal realization ! What use to mentally know they are maya when one did not expereince them at all ? Aquiring, realizing, transcending by letting them go, this is yoga (at least hatha, or the eightfold path), and not letting go everything from the start. The latter might work for very few people whose karma made them ready for such an approach. But for most, the karmic baggages need being dealt with first, and that’s what happens through sadhana. So while you and me are right when talking about these things we are also wrong, because we did not REALIZE this truth, but we just accepted it mentally based on our studies. (well, I can’t talk on your behalf, I am just assuming here that your are still not enlightened, realized either, otherwise we would not be having this discussion)
The danger of knowing and accepting even mentally such truth ( maya ) is that it will make most people lose their aim. Why do you think western culture got ahead of the eastern one ? Because only biased persons will not accept the fact that it is so, and this does not mean western culture is totally superior … rather with it’s more worldly oriented nature, it created the possibiliy of a better life here on this planet, for all humankind. But what we gained in this world, we lost it in the spiritual worlds and now the danger of becoming entrapped into a superficial materialist belief system is greater than in any age. Thankfully, we have guides, as contray to human thinking, we are not the ones who govern the world. (Also we have adversaries, what’s worse … what can be more dangerous than an unkown enemy ?)
What we govern (or should govern) is our own choices, hopefuly more and more conscious ones. But the wordl being governed by ourselves is an illusion. We have the freedom of choice, but very few things we have power upon.
This discussion kind of reminds me the song about Reverend Lee. It is allright to think we have correct mental imaginations about God … but this won’t be enough when we actually meet the devil. That’s why I am quite sceptical but concerned in the same time when people talk about God or Brahman, or realization at leasure. Fact is everyone behaves, is polite, but when dealing with your own devils, call them vasana, but that just makes them seem less dangerous - in fact the best way to imagine the obstacles in yoga if we personalize them, as adversaries much more powerful than us … as they cen never be defeated or eliminated. They just can be realized, and than, with superhuman will, courage, and serenity, they can be transcended. Politeness, talking, mental conditionings, imaginations will not help one transcend them. Not even God, or any of His helpers. There are guides in both directions, and we must chose. The “tempters” are there for a reason, so we can face them, be tested by them, become strenghtened by the trial, and move on. I see them acting in all people around me, and in myself. It is a battlefield, where we fight not with our minds, but our whole being. Conservatorism, laziness, sensuality, superficiality, following unrealized conditionings, these are the enemies. We need to be totally objective and unbiased towards our personal lives, so we can realize the obstacles. In our own lives, our own everyday actions, words, thoughts. Every hour, every minute, every second. Now.
So blindly believing in ?Christ is the only way? is allowed & who has experienced the Holy Father ?
When we discuss anything on a forum like this, the discussion is based on our understanding of a philosophy & not our personal experiences. The Upanishads have already done the realisation for us, if you don?t want to believe it blindly, fine, you want to have a first hand experience you can choose the path of Jnana, like Buddha but can/will you realise anything more than Sat-Chit-Ananda (Brahman) ? ( the Buddhists call it Dharmakaya) & even after personally testing & verifying the truth, i.e if you do return from the nirvikalpa (the point of no return) what would you do ? would you still believe in Jiva atman, heaven & hell ? Would you still believe in Christ ?
Life is made up of Karmas, moments of activity & moments of inactivity. Can I be inactive ? No, coz I have some Niyamit Karmas (obligatory Karmas) like my responsibility towards my family & society etc. So I have to perform the niyamit karmas, if I don?t I?m gaining vasanas, so we cannot escape from our duty. Even when performing this niyamit karmas I can gain vasanas, if I do this with wrong attitude. This wrong attitude leads to Kaamya Karmas (or the devils you are talking about) that is karmas that are prompted by ego-centric desires (nothing but vasanas). Some such desires can be eliminated by simple analysis, but some desires can be really dangerous, they can cause problems for us as well the people around us. There is no limit to what one can desire for. So this Kaamya Karmas can lead to Nisidha Karmas. To deal with such Karma we need to believe in Maya. As B.G. says ?an action is to be evaluated not merely on its face value but after a sincere consideration of the motive working behind it?. So the best way to deal with such karmas is to give up the doership or kartritva bhaava ( I think you know what?s bhaava).
[i]?The world is composed of differances, from our point of view. How shall we able to get over these differences and comprehend the One Essence of all things??
Ramana Maharishi: The differances are the result of the sense of doership (kartritva). The fruits will be destroyed if the root is destroyed. So relinquish the sense of doership; the differances will vanish and the essential reality will reveal itself. In order to give up the sense of doership one must seek to find out who the doer is. Enquire within; the sense of doership will vanish. Vichara (enquiry) is the method.[/i]
-Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi.
Had the European conquerors or the present day Jihadis believed in Maya, so many people would not have lost their lives.
For people who don?t understand God it would be better that they don?t believe in any God.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24797483-421,00.html
understanding maya:
Just a quick reminder to all that this is a subject fraught with emotion and to please be gentle in dealing with others. Some of these posts sound far more aggressive than one would expect to see here.
Perhaps a good rule of thumb would be that if you are feeling very passionate, hurt, incensed (choose your own adjective please) about what someone has said, then you should wait 24 hours before posting a reply to give yourself time to really think about what has made you feel so strongly.
I’m done, please continue your discussion.
what must one do?
Don’t ignore it or push it away.
or, more pedantically, do not by an act of your will evade, deny, or subvert it.
God is an ardent lover, and continually calls you by name.
Thank you for this quote. It explains why I prefer to see God as not me, and even the Self, as not me, but represented by Christ, Cosmic Consciousness. This way there is no room to identify my little self, ego, as a doer, rather as a reciever.
As about other parts of your posts, I have realized that the discussion we had does not surve the purpose of this thread anymore, so I will refrain from further comments. If you’d like, and still interested, we can continue through private messages.
[QUOTE=justwannabe;13987]sometimes letting go is letting go of perceived knowledge? some people experience God, then write about it, we then read it and perceive God to be the interpretation of what we have read So in this system of yoga, what do we really know and what do we think we know?
Jesus said to the lady who touched his coatail, “go thy way thy faith hath made thee whole” well what if you dont have faith? Jesus said “ask and it shall be given, seek and yee shall find” so if faith makes one whole and faith will be given when asked, maybe it is good if we just go with that? I understand to each their own, this is just from my eyes.
blessings to myself and my brothers and sisters
brother neil[/QUOTE]
Faith
The Apostles failed to cure a sick man. Jesus Christ chastised them
"if you had faith as much a as a seed of mustard you could have done it"
(loose quote).
Now a question: faith in WHAT ? They were apostles, they had faith in God, they had faith in Jesus Christ, their teacher.
The great point here: they did not have faith in THEMSELVES. And I think that is essential: to realize that faith in yourself actually means to have faith in Jesus Christ,
From the letter of Saint Paul to Colossians:
…God’s plan is this: to make known his secret to his people, the rich and glorious secret which he has for all people. And the secret is this: CHRIST IS IN YOU !
To my modesat understanding, the Western psychology grasped this concept. They discovered the subconscious, they use it for healing, even for remote healing. Read the works of Dr. Joseh Murphy.
It looks like the subconcious is sort of of a computer, through which God keeps track of your every move, physical or mind moves.
[QUOTE=Hubert;15505]Thank you for this quote. It explains why I prefer to see God as not me, and even the Self, as not me, but represented by Christ, Cosmic Consciousness. This way there is no room to identify my little self, ego, as a doer, rather as a reciever.
[/QUOTE]
A possibility, The Ego may be the one who sees it this way, why would the ego do that? So it can claim it is humble. You are the smallest thing in existence, a lowly speck of dust, you are the largest thing in existence, the cosmos and beyond. as the coin shows heads and tails, you are both. The coin is balanced when it can stand up and show both sides, for all coins have three sides. I do not speak this only to you, I speak this to myself.
we are one in the same
brother Neil
I am not prefering this approach to appear or become humble. This distance makes love possible, as I already explained. I think human beings are selfish enough by nature, and what you say it is true, there is countless room for self deception. Any spiritual interest grows from the personal desire for emancipation, and freedom, thus is not free of selfishness. I am not pretending that by this approach the lower self is eliminated, but on the contray it is realized as something passing, something what we have, of what we can’t escape easily, something what needs to be tamed, transcended by real humility, self knowledge (here I talk about the self knowledge of the little self and it’s operating methods). The yogi needs to realize the true nature of all constituents of human life, than transcend them. It is of little use to say, they are maya, if this is just a thought. Realization of anything is not a thought, it is direct knowledge. How exactly are they maya ? This needs to be realized, and it is only possible if we totally comprehend every human phenomenon. I mean, every one of them. It is funny if someone says he knows what God is while the same person can’t see how his/her digestion works. Here, I mean again real knowledge of the involved pranic and higher processes, not the extract of a biology lesson. Some saints shared that at certain point they “see” how their bodies are built, how it operates, like it was of glass. I bring this example, because I am certain that without passing through these phases, there can be no real knowledge of God. It is also brought the argument that siddhis are not the main goal. But some are necessary, as phases of the journey. Direct knowledge and wisdom, clairvoyance, knowledge of former lives, knowledge of human and world evolution and again, not by accepting any thought system, or tradition but through direct, intimate knowledge, something what is more close to imagination and intuition than the talkings we have here, these are part of the process towards godliness. By these are measured both the truth of the chosen path, and one’s advancement on it.
I am realized, a certain part of self will not accept that. As a realized being my gift is the gift of words that heal. My gift is not that of understading how digestion works, nor is it understanding of how math works. I have a friend who is realized, but a certain part of his self does not accept that, his gift is numbers. I have another friend who is realized, but a certain part of her self will not accept that. Her gift is art. A realized being is not perfect, a realized being is part of a whole, each with individual gifts, and the whole as well. So, to realize that part of self that will not accept is only a liar and limitation that is not real, that is self realization.
Just my belief, does not have to be yours
with love my brother, I love you very much for you are me, I am your cheerleader 
Neil
Surley you and your friends are realized, but not fully.
Now, it is great to think positive, and cherish what we have, but it is also great to aim for more, and try to become better, more fully realized.
I am such a naysayer, am I not ? Guess I am gonna cut it now.
[QUOTE=Hubert;15576]Surley you and your friends are realized, but not fully.
Now, it is great to think positive, and cherish what we have, but it is also great to aim for more, and try to become better, more fully realized.
I am such a naysayer, am I not ? Guess I am gonna cut it now.[/QUOTE]
You a naysayer, no you are not. There is a part of you that is a naysayer, but YOU are not a naysayer. A part of you identifies with that label, but that is not what you are.
a child walks around and asks everyone he meets, “am i alive” everyone tells him yes but there is a doubt inside. The child continues to seek. One day the child realizes he is alive, now from there he goes and strenghtens his gifts. levels of realization, either you realize you are or your not? You either exist or you dont, you are either from “the One” and part of “the one” or your not. Not much middle ground?
just thoughts brother
neil