I was wondering on the siddhis that it say knowledge like samyama on the internal sun you will gain knowledge on the universe. Well i was wondering is this some knowledge that science has not found out or would it be the same stuff that one can look up in a text book?
Thanks
mewtwo,
Whenever one does Samyama on a particular object of concentration, whether it be a chakra center, a mantra, or one’s own breath, it is like a sharp blade which cuts things into smaller and smaller pieces. And like a microscope, you can look closer and find out what are it’s constituents. Because once you start focusing the mind on a particular object, what you are doing is allowing your awareness to become more sensitive as to it’s nature. What you are focusing on is the gross form, but that is just an outward appearance. Just like a rock can appear to be a rock on the outside, but if you look closer you will find it is made of atoms, and those atoms made of subatomic particles and so on, the same is the case with any other object. It is made of several constituents, and what you are seeing from the outside is just the outermost layer. So if you concentrate, for example, upon the breath - if you continue with this for some time it is not just the breath that you are aware of, you start becoming aware of the subtle energies which make the breath. This is how in yoga it was discovered that the breath is not simply a breath, it is like a doorway to prana, the life force energy. In fact, it is possible that just through the breath alone, you can come to a direct experience of the very source of existence, and there are methods where just concentration upon the breath is used as a means towards one’s enlightenment. Similarly, you can sharpen your awareness, make it more sensitive, by focusing on different objects. If you perform Samyama on the moon, for example, it can activate something in your intuition which can make you aware of other things, like the arrangements of stars and so on. Or, if you focus upon the throat, you can become sensitive to the point of entering into the realm of “infinite space”, because the energy of the throat is directly linked to the element “akasa”. All of the chakras correspond to different states of matter and energy, they are not just certain places along the spinal cord. They are like keys or gates to something else entirely.
very very interesting Amirmourad…
[QUOTE=mewtwo;49950]I was wondering on the siddhis that it say knowledge like samyama on the internal sun you will gain knowledge on the universe. Well i was wondering is this some knowledge that science has not found out or would it be the same stuff that one can look up in a text book?
Thanks[/QUOTE]
I THINK (actually pretty dang sure) the knowledge would include the Subtle constituents of the universe. I don’t know of any western scientific texts on astronomy or cosmology that relay such information.
mewtwo,
To add to what Amir has nicely put, it may be misleading to believe that science has answers to all the questions and that it is nicely laid out in the text books. The frontiers of science at all times have been shifting and looking at the scientific journals one sees more questions remaining unanswered for every question solved. This is not at all to belittle scientific enquiry.
By nature, scientific enquiry looks at pieces and parts and strands and tries to put them together to experiment with a thoery. The premises of Yoga of Yogasutras are holistic, they start as cohesive one and drill down into parts and sub-parts. In this, the parts maintain uniformity with the whole, but at each point it becomes a challenge to separate the philosophy from practice.
That challenge is resolved by realizing the truth through ‘direct perception’ that is first-hand. Then, concepts like nano-second do not remain ‘out there’ in the textbook but becomes a reality ‘in here’ within our very own inner domain. The universe as per Patanjali’s yoga is largely subtle which acts as causes for what happens in the physical world. Today’s science confines itself to the physical and tries to speculate the behind-the-scene forces of the subtle world. Sanyama brings us face-to-face with these forces leaving no need for any speculation.
[QUOTE=mewtwo;49950]I was wondering on the siddhis that it say knowledge like samyama on the internal sun you will gain knowledge on the universe. Well i was wondering is this some knowledge that science has not found out or would it be the same stuff that one can look up in a text book?
Thanks[/QUOTE]
I think you need to b careful reading any Sanskrit text. You seem to be referring to sutra 3.26. The word used there is [I]surya[/I] which has the literal meaning of “sun”. I don’t really see any justification for interpreting it as the “internal sun”, because the next two sutras refer to samyama on the moon and the pole star. So clearly Patanjali is talking about observing the night skies, and acquiring a certain type of knowledge as a result.
There really is nothing super special about this. In my view Patanjali is showing how samyama can be employed for practical purposes, and also illustrating in general how the process works and what types of results can be expected. There is a difference in the knowledge gained from samyama as opposed to knowledge gained from books or from teachers. In the latter, the knowledge that you learn is of a general nature only, while in samyama, you gain knowledge of particulars of objects. It’s a lot like the difference between book knowledge and practical experience.
In my view, it is legitimate to apply samyama for practical purposes. It’s not so much about what knowledge you learn, but about the technique or process that you use to acquire it. The technique has universal application, from the plumber, to the surgeon, to the seeker of spiritual truths.
At that advanced level, Patanjali writes in a cryptic manner. My view of the relevant sutras:
SŪTRA III.26
Through sanyama upon the sun, will come a consciousness (or knowledge) of the seven worlds. A reference to ?sun? here is to swādhisthāna. Here, both mūladhāra and swādhisthāna centers are involved. There is a rotation-cum-circulation movement between the two.
The natural circulation of prāṇa between these two chakras (mūladhāra and swādhisthānaa) begins at birth (i.e. the first breath) and continues throughout life. But in our adult life, it is not proper and rhythmic, and needs correction just as the breathing apparatus does. There is a certain method for this circulation, and on this circulation depends the continuous production of
? the energies of life and awareness
? the energy of the essence of consciousness
? the will.
With this accomplished, a mahayogī can see all the seven sub-stages of Bhūh, the physical universe, and know and understand them.
SŪTRA III.27
Knowledge of all lunar forms arises through focused meditation on the moon.
SŪTRA III.29
By concentrated meditation upon the solar plexus, comes perfect knowledge as to the condition of the body.
These two Sūtras need to be taken together. The moon has totally negative vibrations. It corresponds with the totally negative solar plexus (maṇipūra chakra) in the physical and the parallel primary body. Right from our most primitive days on this planet, this area has been a repository and guiding factor of animal instincts. Fear and doubt have ruled supreme here.
Solar plexus is thus a massive area full of animal memory and memory of bitter events. It needs cleansing. It is in the nature of the moon, as perceived, to be negative and constantly changing. It is thought that on the upward arc of evolution present-day humanity is at the middle sub-stage of awareness of the physical world, Bhūh. In the earlier sub-stages and during the involution, humanity has survived mainly on animal instincts. Now, the hostile conditions of living are fast evaporating, yet the legacy of the animal instincts persists. It is reflected in today?s aggressive life-styles of individuals, communities, and nations. The veiled ferociousness in political, religious, and other devisive stances is entirely irrelevant now, but it erupts from the dreadful memory stored in the solar plexus region.
For an individual, fear is very clearly expressed here (not in the heart or the brain). If not cleansed properly, it will continue time and again to distract attention during every type of practice. Only when totally cleansed can physical, psychic (emotional) and causal health be experienced. Again, by focused meditation, a mahayogī can know the status of another individual?s fears and doubts, so that he can help and guide them. Here, too, the process is the same?location of prāṇa energy through concentrated meditation and then rotation of prāṇa in a certain manner.
SŪTRA III.28
Concentration upon the Pole Star will give knowledge of the orbits of the planets and the stars.
SŪTRA III.34
Understanding of the mind-awareness comes from focused meditation upon the heart center.
Again, III.28 and III.34 to be taken together. The pole star is a very important landmark in the cosmos due to its very stable position. But Sage Pata?jali uses the word ?Dhruva? as a symbol of a great saint who by his great devotion was able to perform many miracles. Devotion arises in the heart (anāhata chakra).
So, focused concentration on anāhata chakra is directed to regenerate it. Ordinarily, it has positive and negative half-centers that are corrected by rotating prāṇa in a certain manner, making it one positive center.
@ Amir
I really don’t have much to quarrel with except the statement about concentration on the breath as the sole means to enlightenment. I’m familiar with some practices where pranayama can be used to get you all the way to the promised land, but there’s a little more involved than just concentrating on the breath. From the descriptions in the sutras under discussion, one would not expect complete enlightenment as a result just from samyama on the breath.
@Suhas Tambe
There’s a lot of interpretation going on here. Based on the text, I don’t really see the justification.
bhuvana-j?ānaṃ sūrye saṃyamāt
[ul]
[li]bhuvana - the world[/li][li]-j?ānaṃ - knowledge[/li][li] sūrye - on the sun[/li][li] saṃyamāt from samyama[/li][/ul]
From samyama on a leaking pipe, one can acquire knowledge of how to fix it.
Asuri,
“about concentration on the breath as the sole means to enlightenment”
I had not said that it is a sole means to enlightenment, or that there is such a thing as a sole means to enlightenment. But you are right, what I have said can be misleading. As far as meditation is concerned, meditation is not something that can arise as an effort of the mind, nor is it a particular technique. But a technique can be used as a means to enter into meditation. One such means is concentration upon the breath.
Whether concentration upon a chakra center, the breath, a mantra, a yantra, it makes very little difference. All are just different starting points that come to the same space. And regardless of the method, every method follows more or less the same process, to dissolve into the methodless. If you were concentrating upon the mantra, there comes a point when the mantra disappears. If you were concentrating upon the chakra, there comes a point when the chakra disappears. If you were concentrating upon the breath, there comes a point when the breath disappears. And you are simply in meditation, without any object of focus. That is when the mind becomes more still, more silent, until eventually there is not even a single ripple on the lake, and it is possible to have a direct glimpse into an intelligence which is not of the mind, but is the essential nature of mind.
I agree with Asuri, to read the Yogasutras interpretively, you will simply read into it whatever you want. An honest reading of the text should only look at the denotative meaning. If it says sun, it means the sun, not inner sun. In fact there are instruction in the samadhi pada(first chapter) on using an inner luminosity as a possible object for meditation. The samyama described is the actual sun and inner luminosity is a sort of inner-sun.
I really understood what samyama was all about when I first took mushrooms. I noticed how the mushrooms had produced an enhanced state of consciousness. I found that whatever object I moved my concentration on, I got a much more clearer and crisp view of that object that I never had before. I played around with different objects: looking at things in front of me, meditating on silence, OM mantra, listening to sound, watching video clips, Qigong and noticed each one had its own distinct effect. I then remembered samyama and instantly understood that what I experiencing was a grade of samyama(but not actual samyama)
All objects you do samyama will produce a different effect in sabija samadhi(samadhi with seed) It will unleash a different power. So samyama on the sun will reveal the entire mechanics of the universe. Samyama on the polar star will reveal the map of all of space with its stars, planets, moons. Samyama on a memory will reveal the entire chain of memories from the past, including all past lives etc. However, no matter what object you choose nirbija samadhi(samadhi without seed) will be the same.
Yoga is the best method for doing any research. Rather than going out there doing painstreaking experiments to find imperfect knowledge which you will most certainly have to rise later on, perfect knowledge comes to you.
[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;50002]At that advanced level, Patanjali writes in a cryptic manner. My view of the relevant sutras:
SŪTRA III.26
Through sanyama upon the sun, will come a consciousness (or knowledge) of the seven worlds. A reference to ?sun? here is to swādhisthāna. Here, both mūladhāra and swādhisthāna centers are involved. There is a rotation-cum-circulation movement between the two.
The natural circulation of prāṇa between these two chakras (mūladhāra and swādhisthānaa) begins at birth (i.e. the first breath) and continues throughout life. But in our adult life, it is not proper and rhythmic, and needs correction just as the breathing apparatus does. There is a certain method for this circulation, and on this circulation depends the continuous production of
? the energies of life and awareness
? the energy of the essence of consciousness
? the will.
With this accomplished, a mahayogī can see all the seven sub-stages of Bhūh, the physical universe, and know and understand them.
SŪTRA III.27
Knowledge of all lunar forms arises through focused meditation on the moon.
SŪTRA III.29
By concentrated meditation upon the solar plexus, comes perfect knowledge as to the condition of the body.
These two Sūtras need to be taken together. The moon has totally negative vibrations. It corresponds with the totally negative solar plexus (maṇipūra chakra) in the physical and the parallel primary body. Right from our most primitive days on this planet, this area has been a repository and guiding factor of animal instincts. Fear and doubt have ruled supreme here.
Solar plexus is thus a massive area full of animal memory and memory of bitter events. It needs cleansing. It is in the nature of the moon, as perceived, to be negative and constantly changing. It is thought that on the upward arc of evolution present-day humanity is at the middle sub-stage of awareness of the physical world, Bhūh. In the earlier sub-stages and during the involution, humanity has survived mainly on animal instincts. Now, the hostile conditions of living are fast evaporating, yet the legacy of the animal instincts persists. It is reflected in today?s aggressive life-styles of individuals, communities, and nations. The veiled ferociousness in political, religious, and other devisive stances is entirely irrelevant now, but it erupts from the dreadful memory stored in the solar plexus region.
For an individual, fear is very clearly expressed here (not in the heart or the brain). If not cleansed properly, it will continue time and again to distract attention during every type of practice. Only when totally cleansed can physical, psychic (emotional) and causal health be experienced. Again, by focused meditation, a mahayogī can know the status of another individual?s fears and doubts, so that he can help and guide them. Here, too, the process is the same?location of prāṇa energy through concentrated meditation and then rotation of prāṇa in a certain manner.
SŪTRA III.28
Concentration upon the Pole Star will give knowledge of the orbits of the planets and the stars.
SŪTRA III.34
Understanding of the mind-awareness comes from focused meditation upon the heart center.
Again, III.28 and III.34 to be taken together. The pole star is a very important landmark in the cosmos due to its very stable position. But Sage Pata?jali uses the word ?Dhruva? as a symbol of a great saint who by his great devotion was able to perform many miracles. Devotion arises in the heart (anāhata chakra).
So, focused concentration on anāhata chakra is directed to regenerate it. Ordinarily, it has positive and negative half-centers that are corrected by rotating prāṇa in a certain manner, making it one positive center.[/QUOTE]
So interesting Suhas x