Pain in knees (recent)

Due to too much practice for the Padmasana (i guee so :frowning: ), I hurt my knees. Last week when palying badminton with my friends, my knees felt very painful.And this situation became better after enough rest, but I havn’t courage to do yoga anymore. I am thinking about the postures which won’t have any influence on my knees. But, Could I do yoga as usual in the future?will my knees be better later on? could I do any practice for my knees? could you give me some advices about my problem? Thanks very much.

Bye the way, my knees felt painful occasionally before, but my meditation teacher said it wouln’t really hurt my knees. Is it serious? do I need some help from a professional doctor? I really enjoy doing yoga, I don’t hope I cannot do yoga any more in the future.

Asana students who effort to move into Padmasana before there is requisite opening in the hips merely direct the action into the knee joints.

Both Padmasana and Virasana appear to the naked eye to be easy poses to get into. It is merely another example of how our ignorance clouds reality. The student may get into the pose but the integrity is lost and therefore there is no yoga available in the pose as it, over time, is harming the knee joints.

In a case such as this I’d advise to discontinue padmasana and take height under the sitting bones in virasana. If the ligaments in the joint are over stretched they may heal - depending on the age of the person, their well being, lifestyle, diet, and practice. Too many variables for a one-size-fits-all answer.

If the student’s mind is troubled by the thought of damage it is best to do whatever can be done to alleviate that worry. If she/he cannot do so on their own then perhaps, for them, seeing a medical doctor would help.

PLEASE…if you are reading this post and just beginning your practice, do not force your way into poses before the anatomical body is ready and please, consider working with a teacher so you may receive the joys of the practice without the surgeries. This is powerful stuff and should not be trifled with.

I’m guilty of this as well!
It takes me up to 2 hours to be able to get into padmasana comfortably and it feels soo good. But sometimes I try to get into it too quickly and then my knees feel funny for a few days. My remedy is then to just forget about it for a while and work on other things mostly with legs straight like Paschimottanasana, the split etc… Personally as a gage for a good padmasana I have to clear badakonasana and Agnistambhasana first.

It?s not that much a question of beeing guilty, but far more of taking responsability for the own body.
Its the only one you have in this lifetime. To master the comlex postures is not like padmasana is definetly not a sign of beeing advanced if you ruin the wonderfull body nature has given to you. So like its been said before its better to prepare the body before going into these postures and follow the saftey advises posted by Inner Athelete.

Lars

jlg – when you’re taking 2 hours to get into Padmasana, are you working your hips or your knees? 'cause knees aren’t supposed to move shins to the left or right of the line of the thigh like a shoulder, just back and forth within that line, like a door swinging on a hinge.
The ‘left and right’ movement in the knee is the one my soccer-coaching sister feared above all else for her little players.

I’ve got my knees into abit of a pickle myself after doing supta virasana, the other common one next to padmasana( for which i have’nt personally had problems)

I would suggest you

  1. stop doing what you’re doing,i.e trying to get into this pose if you cannot do it safely
    2)Rest -take it real easy
  2. if you are reallly stuck and getting no relief, consider exploring very gently this movement i’ll paste a link/URL to- it’s documented on u-tube. i believe this helped me in fact re-align the knee joint better and integrate them with the hips and ankles after getting into a pickle doing supta virasana. it’s from ‘hanna somatics’ and if done gently, according to first principles, it is anatomically safe. (Just ignore the cheesy music) Some might say harmless, if done gently.

I would suggest you consult [I]Somatics[/I] by Thomas Hanna for better and complemetary instructional audio guidance too, if you are really intereste in learning this ( as there is some learning curve involved, to do it effectively)Rotate from your HIPS , not your knees( as technie hints at you should be doin, and also IA)

When the knee moves in, to the medial line of thebody, rotate that same hip inwards.( don’t drag the left foot so far outwards as the video maybe suggests but keep in line with shoulder. this is how Hanna’s wife does it. and i think it’s safer)

When thesame knee/ankle/leg , points outwards, observe the lift and rotation of [U]OPPOSITE[/U] hip inwards and employ this to facilitate the movement.

You want to do it in a lazy fashion, just like a cat stretching, as Hanna suggests( why he calls his main series, designed to defeat the process of aging which he thinks is myth btw ,'the ‘cat stretch’), though there is no actual stretch in fact involved.

Also you want to do it according to first principles- there are 2 main ones

  1. [U]Use the least possible effort[/U]. In addition try, as best you can, only use those muscles which are actually involved in the movment

  2. Go slowly- so your brain gets time to get uncluttered neural feedback. no superfluous “noise” if that makes sense in terms of youur senssory ffeeback and neural reprogramming.

3)[U] Focus on the internal sensation of the movement[/U]. This is acheived by 2) i.e going slowly. Put your ( maximum)awareness into the areaof the body you’re working on releasing.

Another important thing-Feel the muscles contract and then slowly release in a slow controled fashion( any jerkiness should decrease as muscular control increases; you may find your strength increasing dramaticaly (as half of strength is coordination, i’m inclined to believe). The relaxation phase is important- give your attention here…This is the ‘controlling moment’ as they call , where new connections and pathways are instantly created, as if by magic ,in the brain( specifically, the neocortex i think, believe. we are the only animal with such a development, the new brain neuroscientists call it)At that point muscle tonus drops.( and the reflex is switched off,if i’m correct here)

With this pareticular movment ,Drag or rather slide the foot, if neccessary,at least until the muscle tonus of the legs have dropped until you can lift the leg without say incurring possible spasm the movement might elecit byt using to much effort and yourmuscles being at too high a level of tonus .

It took me six month to get some handle on how to do somatic exercises because of the learning curve involved.,hence the long description given here.

The muscle tonus./tension in your legs should reduce after doing this movement, in the way I suggest… Relationships between hips,knees and ankles will be better integrated.Remeber – Remebr -rotate and openn from the hips, not the knees.

When I researched supta virasana-(and I read a lot fo contradictory and therfore confusing guidance I must add) I read that lateral movment in the knee joint is only possible during flexion and even then, it is only minimal , if I am not mistaken. The knee joint does not have lateral movement , not designed that way,when it is locked straight during extension( assuming that is the correct term). Yoga journal is quite good for adivce on how one can do this pose safely but if you cannot get into this pose mu suggestion would be, not to even bother. Some yogis sayit is alright for folk- I would have to disagree.

You can read more on hanna somatics here

http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f18/hanna-somatics-3719.html

And I would suggest you get Hanna’s book[I] Somatics [/I]and/or audio instructional guidance to guide you and complement the instructions i’ve given here( which are possibly not enough) and learn the movements like this one, the one I post a u-tube link to.

This is what I would explore , do( and have done), if iever, heaven forbid, got my kness in a pickle after doing a particular asana.

I remember a tai chi teacher hinting you really want to look after your knees( i.e not mess about with them , by putting unecessary strain on them) and that they don’t heal so well. Their ROM is obviously lot more limited compared to say the hip socket .understanding at least how the joint works, was a great help to me.( as I say Yoga Journal has good advice on how to do supta virasana say, safely-ish, [providing you listen to your own body) Stay clear of these poses, if in any doubt.

Forgive me for the length of this post, but I felt compelled to share some things i’ve learnt.
And perhaps my suggestion might help.

Also, feel free to correct whatever i’ve said here, if there are any point about anatomy tsay hat are technically inaccurate.

Hanna somatics is basically about learning to sense and therefore control one’s own body. It is a form of bio-feedback muscle-brain training, and I am still learning how to do them,‘somatic excercises’ ( whole body integrated movements), to produce the most effective results. I believe i’ll get there eventually and believe in it’s efficacy, otherwise I would’nt try and promote it here to some degree.

Of course use some common sense here, &
Listen to your body.

It’s all too easy to see a yoga pretzel diagram , picture and read very detailed instructions, even after much research, and think- yeah i’ll ty and replicate that.But if the boyd is’nt flexible, open, intergrated , well aligned and prepared enough for it- ti’s just asking for trouble.I’ve done it myself with reclined supta virasana( including experimented with bolsters which is somewhat safer if you get the requisite heights just right- there’s obviously an art to this)), and my knees have not liked it.

I think this goes without saying.

[U]Correction:-[/U]

Lesson 6 - The Myth of Ageing series( aka ‘The Cat Stretch’`)

Additional guidance-
Observe the respective hip lift (rather than turn inward) when you turn the leg (hip,knee,ankle,foot) in and out.


(There are somatic movements/excercises where you rotate the hips inward , and down slightly but they address tight region of the hips and waist).

You are basically activating, or waking up, the natural patterns relating to how how your body should work. Hanna somatics ,from what i can tell ,seems to make alot of use of the contra-bilateral relationships,particularly between hips and shoulders( something inherent in our capacity to walk upright)- when you move one, it’s oppoisite should move.But in some folk these patterns get stuck.The movmements teach a person then how to get them [I]unstuck[/I]. HS also tries to equalise opposing muscle groups, so the brain then makes the connection , through hooking one movment to another, and also into bigger unified grand movements.( this is the equalisation principle, as well as use of integration, something peculiar to hanna soomatics. otherwise the nervous sytem is disoriented. and the brain keeps those muscle groups in a state of high tension, in an attempt to balance out or oppose, a reflex designed to protect the body. It maybe orginally be the result of trauma,stress, and/or injury to the body but the tension patterns still remain long after( maybe 30-40 years after little johnnie fell down the stairs and had that seemingly innocuous bump to his leg,the significance of which is well forgotten,long after the event) because of habituation.You are therfore teaching the brain how to relax those muscles that maybe tight. The brain forgets or has forgotten.It can relax those muscles, perhaps more in your case though that need a little encouragement, as well as integrate them better with the rest of your body’s relasted musculature, as well as those in a deeper chronic state of ,something he referred to as, sensory-motor amnesia)

At least, the beauty of hanna somatics is it is pretty mcuh anatomically safe if you follow the guidelines- doing slowly,gently,& putting your awareness into those tight/problem areas etc. If you get spasm anywhere as result of doing the movments, simply work in a leeisurely way, with [U]less effort[/U] involved, trying to use only those muscles that are involved in the movement. You may find your strength increases dramatically( as if by magic). A that point ,simply work with and use less effort if and when you repeat the movement. Only a couple of repetitions are necessary( unlike feldenkrais method , or even gym training,there is little gained by doing lots; it’s the quality of the movement tht matters, not the quantity. Less is more)

Sorry, it’s lesson 5 (not 6) above , i refer to, from Dr Thomas Hanna’s ’ the Cat Stretch’

5- addresses legs
6- neck & shoulders, & some rotational movement, twisting, in spine( though you often feel it in the waist)

Some movements can feel weird and awkward ,at first.- you often do the work of the muscle ,as well as contracting & relaxing( therefor feeling/sensing), by reducing the distance between origin and attachment points of muscles.At the end of relaxation phase and when you’ve come to complete rest, so the theory goes at least,the muscle tonus should have reduced to zero(or at often at least 30%,eventually down to 0).

I’ve had muscle burn and therefore fatigue in legs,from permanently contracted muscles, that’s reduced after doing this movement.Also should help the knees re-integrate better.

Techne – when I say 2 hours I mean a full warmup. The best is when I start with a light cardio exercise. Then my favorite set of asana’s ( in order ) to get there are supta baddha konasan, Upavistha Konasana (on my back with legs against the wall), virasana / supta virasana, Ardha Matsyendrasana, Gomukhasana, pre-cradle the baby (ankle to knee with one bent leg), cradle the baby, Baddha Konasana , Agnistambhasana, half lotus, then full Lotus.

If I follow that routine and relax in each postures and make sure I stay in baddha konasana until my legs touch the floor and stay in Agnistambhasana until my legs are properly stack one above the other then when I get to Lotus its all good :wink: