Quetzalcoatl has reported a post.
Reason:
Hi David,
I want to report this post by Surya Deva for these parts:
[quote]you speak with pride when you say India got invaded, raped, and looted. Thus my criticism of you as being uncivilised and backwards is justified.
If I came to know that my ancestors went around raping, killing and looting people in the world, I would feel ashamed. I would have no pride in the matter. This is the difference between you and me.Civilised people measure a civilisations progress by their character, nobility, morality and wisdom - not by how many people they have exterminated, raped, enslaved and looted or how big their weapons are.
You are not a civilised person. You are backwards.
and
You sound closer to an animal to me than a human. You take glee in your ancestors raping, murdering and conquering people on this planet. You are proud of your barbaric past. You think we are nothing more than instinct driven creatures. Most definitely backwards.
I don’t mind heated debates and the occasional insult, but this simply goes too far. There is no indication I would be proud or happy that people get killed and mistreated. This isn’t the “religion”-forum (and not a discussion about religion), so I don’t think I have to accept such slander.[/quote]
Post: What is Enlightenment?
Forum: Spirit’s Path
Assigned Moderators: N/A
Posted by: Surya Deva
Original Content:
[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;58827]Hi Surya Deva,
sure. What other reasons would there be?
I don’t think so. Even if you thought it was in the blood, that would be somehow caused by the environment. Even if god was the cause, god would be an envirionmental factor, so would be aliens. Name one other possibility please - don’t worry, I now you won’t. And no, you don’t have to apologize to bore me with beginning any reply to me with the same lame routine of a narrow mind.
But my friend, aren’t “better climate” and “more resources” pretty much exactly what I said like forever? And aren’t these circumstances?
Circumstances are the reason. Circumstances circrumstances circumstances.
Quite simple. :lol:
I will have to conclude you have a narrow mind. If circumstances alone could explain why a culture becomes more civilised, then why is your culture still not civilised and why are you still going around invading, exploiting, looting and raping other countries? The West has been at war with non-Western countries non-stop since the beginning of the 20th century. Internally, you suffer from 50% or higher divorce rates and the highest rates of depression and mental disorders. Why are you still not civilised?
So what you overall do is pick two people and compare them and belittle one of them and glorifiy the other, but to discuss the hows and whys is unfortunately impossible. So we end up that at some point in time, or let’s say some time-window, the people you genetically happen to stem from had a more advanced culture than the people I genetically happen to stem from. Compared to the time-window of evolution, that was something like a few minutes: Congratulations, Surya Deva. Your ancestors were ahead for five minutes. clap clap clap
I never singled out the Germanic people. I have been talking about Western civilisation which traces its origins to the Greco-Roman world and Sumeria. I am saying Indian civilisation has always been more advanced. Again, it is easy to compare IVC with its contempoary Sumeria and you can clearly see which one is more culturally advanced.
Don’t be pc, sure there are races, differences in the genome.
The differences are neglible. It is a clear fact in genetics that all races belong to the same human species. I would not expect you to be anymore biologically inferior or superior to me if you were a different race. I have in fact met far more intelligent, spiritual and high charactered white people than Indian people today. Race is not a factor for me and never has been. I treat all races in exactly the same way.
Could you pretty please explain why you punish a wrong doer? What’s the point? And could you pretty please explain how you set the punishment? Why would you send a thief 6 month to jail? Why not 12 or 3? What about the serial killer, the killed serial, isn’t dying just once unjust?
And allow me to ask again: What about me? My family? People of the city I live in? My nation? What would need to be brought to justice? What have I done wrong, my family, the people of the city or nation I live in? I wouldn’t know.
You punish a wrong doer to set an example in society that such wrongs are not tolerated. It is to deter people from commiting crimes. The punishment is set according to the severity of the crime and who commits the crime. You see a normal joe on the street if he commits theft is not as big a deal as a holy man commiting theft, say a pope, guru or imam.
Very serious crimes like rape and murder must be given be very serious punishments to deter other members of society for doing the same. The current Western/modern judicial system is a joke though - rapists get a few years or a few months, and can reduce their sentence by getting aid. Hence, it is not surprising that many of them repeat-offend. Moreover, prison is hardly something to be feared - you get regular meals, television, libraries, x-boxes and people to socialise with.
As regards how you, your family and your people must be punished? Whoever said you should be punished? I distinctly remember saying I do not consider you responsible for what your ancestors did. Did you just conveniantly ignore that? Why?
You don’t want to understand. You refuse to. You want to insist on your simple minded convenient black and white world view.
For example: You grow up in Nazi Germany. The anti-jewish-propaganda is all around you, 24/7, in Kindergarten, at school, after school when you have to attend to the organised activities of HJ and BDM, and so forth. You grow up with everybody telling you that the Jew is some sort of parasite like rat, out to harm you and your people and the great nation that was built by honest people with honest work. That’s all you hear, over and over and over again. Books and teachings that might lead to you questioning this are banned, people who think differently are send to concentration camps or downright killed.
Another example: You’re the kid of an extreme Hindu nationalist and you grow up around your father and his “friends” and their kids and all you hear all day every day is “Western people are Asura, we are the Deva, the Asura must be destroyed, they are our enemies, they are inferior, we are superior” etc. etc. Now imagine you would say “but no wait, we’re all the same, western people are no demons…” Kinda improbable, wouldn’t you agree.
And so forth. But you nailed it:
Unfortunately in your worldview we are just a collection of our circumstances. This is why I state you are narrow minded. It is easy for anybody to see that while circumstances are a significant factor, humans also have a conscience. Not all Germans for example sided with the Nazis in their hatred towards the jews, some actually even helped the Jews and fought for them.
Your worldview is quite miserable in which you do accept the humans may actually have a natural morality or goodness. I pointed out the example of children becoming upset at seeing their parents fighting to point out we have a natural aversion to negative emotions like anger and sorrow. We have a natural preference for positive emotions joy and happiness. Therefore, when we see another human being wronged by another, we have natural empathy for them which expresses itself in our conscience. Indeed, we can choose to listen to our conscience or suppress it, but we cannot escape the guilt that arises when do so. Even criminals feel guilt.
Unfortunately, you are too brainwashed by a materialist worldview where we are nothing than biological machines programmed by our environments. This is also another reason why you a backwards person. To not know that you have a soul is actually stupidity. Even children know they have a soul. It is proven in crosscultural studies children innately believe in soul, mind-body dualism and god. Nobody has to tell them.
Funny jokes aside: Not that I would be a total pacificst or anything, you’d most probably find out all about it if you kept saying such stuff to my actual face, but genocide is not one of my customs. And it is not of most Germans, though we once had leaders that wanted to kill all the Jews. This, though, was a secret operation the vast majority of Germans had no idea about and the generation that had lived at that time was ashamed about it their whole life.
Please do not pretend that the majority of Germans were innocent in the holocaust and didn’t know it was going on.
Do you disagree with that “custom”? It kinda seems, as India was always easy to conquer for anybody. This is indeed hard to understand. If someone came along to rape your mother and kill your dad, would you just stand there and bow in namaste to them? Would you not fight to protect your family? And your people? Why not?
Well as your statement is not true it will be easy to refute. India was no more easier to conquer than any other strong country. India had one of the strongest armies in the world during the Gupta empire. This is when Alexander armies laid seige on India, first walking through Persia, but then were defeated at the border by a minor Indian king known as Poros. Although Greek historians later recorded this as a victory, they remained suspiciously silent on it - well that is because Alexandra was badly beaten. His army was scared off by the mighty Indian army and refused to fight, and he even ended up ceeding his previously captured territory in Afghanistan to Poros. So Poros ended up not only succeeding in holding onto his own, he gained twice the size by the end of war.
Moreover, India was a collection of kingdoms, which grew in size and reduced in size throughout time. Even when the Mughals invaded India, they could not capture it all and got barely anywhere near the South, because they faced stiff resistance from Hindu kingdoms like the Marathas, Rajaputanas, Sikhs etc. This is because Hindus have a strong warrior culture. While the Muslims pretty much walked through the Romans, the Arabans, Persians, Egyptians, converting them to 100% Muslim - in India they struggled. India is still 80% Hindu.
The British also did not have it easy in India. They had to fight several wars with Muslim kingdoms and Hindu kingdoms, and even lost a few. When they won the battle of Plessy and gained control of Bengal, a crucial hub of India, most of India fell into its hands. However, again Hindus fought very hard several times such in the 1857 battle of independence. The fight never ended, because Hindus have a strong warrior culture.
Portugal and the Dutch did not invade all of India, but only managed to get small colonies like goa and pondicherry. India has not suffered anymore invasions than say England, or France or Germany.
In 10,000 years of history, it is only in the last 1000 years that foreign invasions started - and boy did we fight. So how can you conclude from this it constantly got invaded?
It is obvious you are not apologetic about what your ancestors did to India, because you speak with pride when you say India got invaded, raped, and looted. Thus my criticism of you as being uncivilised and backwards is justified.
If I came to know that my ancestors went around raping, killing and looting people in the world, I would feel ashamed. I would have no pride in the matter. This is the difference between you and me.
Civilised people measure a civilisations progress by their character, nobility, morality and wisdom - not by how many people they have exterminated, raped, enslaved and looted or how big their weapons are.
You are not a civilised person. You are backwards.
What’s your problem with sex and porn? If you don’t like it, you don’t have to have sex and you don’t have to watch porn. If you like it, you can do it - in the West. To claim there would be something wrong about it, is a matter of opinion. If you would bring porn to India, a lot of Indian men would love it and watch it. Sure you can debate this. Debate your opinion, give reasons and arguments for your opinion why porn is evil, why sex is bad. Sure you can. But that does not make your opinion a universal truth. It remains an opinion. And it is not an opinion that in the west you simply have the freedom of choice. And - I agree on that anytime - while I might not really understand your concepts of “Asura” and “Deva”, I still think that freedom of choice is always the better thing than forbidding something and surpressign something with force.
Now you are proving why you are uncivilised. You actually think Western immorality is a virtue 
It is easy to see why porn and lust are bad qualities for a civilised person, but not for you, because you are uncivilised. I will give you a brief answer why:
Lust is not a positive emotion or feeling. If you are feeling lust you are lacking in character, discipline and self-control. To be civilised is to overcome your base instincts which you have inherited from your animal past and to bring forth your human quality which impart your humanity, else you are not far removed from an animal. The human has the ability for great compassion, charity, love, friendship and wisdom, but he will not realise this unless he overcomes his base animal nature and gains control over his own senses. One who does not have control of his senses, but rather the senses control them, is not far removed from an animal.
You sound closer to an animal to me than a human. You take glee in your ancestors raping, murdering and conquering people on this planet. You are proud of your barbaric past. You think we are nothing more than instinct driven creatures. Most definitely backwards.
Same with parents. Sure do I “fraternize” with my parents. I call em mom and dad, and not by their names, never heard anyone doing that, but I see no problem there too. I respect them because they are respectable people, not because they are my parents. If I would be forced to respect them, or if I would have been brought up to respect them, no matter what they do, that would again be surpression of my free will. If I disagree with them, I should be able and allowed to express that, instead of blindly agreeing with anything they do. See my example of an extremist Hindu nationalist who teaches their kids hate. If they blindly follow anything such a dad says, there is no way out for them. So again: Freedom of choice.
You do not “fraternize” with your parents because your parents are not your mates. Hence you do not talk to them as you would your mates. In civilised socieities like India and China, we understand what is called relationalism, that is we should behave differently with different people and we should be mindful of remaining within limits. In India this is known as maryada. For example you do not kiss your mother on her lips(I have actually seen this happen in the West) or sleep with your teacher. Each relationship has limits which one must remain mindful of.
You do lack respect for your parents from a dharmic point of view because you do not respect their authority and treat them like your mates. Your mates did not bring you up - they did. You are indebted to them. When we blur the limits of these relationships as it happens in your west, you destory the order of society. Hence why in your culture even incest takes place.
Same with women. The woman is the housekeeper. Yes, that’s backwards. Why would she be? What’s the point? There is no reason, it’s simply a tradition based on women being less strong than men, and therefore less capable of doing the hard work that had to be done in ancient times. I do no hard work, and neither do you, so why would our wifes have to be housekeepers. It’s nonsense.
Can you give birth to children? No, because you do not have the nature of a woman that would allow that. The woman biologically is the mother and the mother obviously has to mother the child. How can she do that if she is working? Somebody has to look after the family and manage the house, and I assure you having watched my mother do the housework and pitched in myself to help time and time again, it’s not easy - it is a full time job. Dharma is about making sacrifices in life for the greater good - the mother sacrifices her own leisure to look after her children. The father sacrificies his leisure to work hard and earn to provide for his family and give them the comforts they need.
It is a two-way process and most Hindu men and women understand this very well. Just as the mother has a dharma, so does the father, so does the child. Of course you cannot understand dharma because you are a backwards civilisation.
In your civilisation the mother leaves the child at home with a nanny or simply on its own, while she goes out for a night out with the girls Why else do you have 50% or more divorce rates. Most children growing up now days can’t even be sure who their father is 
As well is it a stereotype that western families are all dysfunctional. Sure there are more to observe, because in the west, if husband and wife don’t want to be together anymore, they have the freedom to go seperate ways. Which - I guess - in India is different.
Etc. etc. All your examples go back to the same thing: Freedom of choice vs. the straitjacket of tradition.
I am not saying they are ALL dysfunctional, but over 50% of them are. It is a widely recognised and endemic problem in Western society, not just some exaggeration. The cause of this is how relaxed you are about divorce, how you lack a notion of dharma. The other day I saw a 60 year old woman in a club when I went out with my mate on a Hen party - shameful, trully shameful. I even said to my mate, “If I was still in this place at the age of 60, I would consider I have failed in life”
Dharma is basically virtue. I cannot explain virtue to somebody who lacks virtue and cannot understand why it is virtue.
Again, I think of Deva as holy, good and such, and Asura as evil, demonic, etc. India is corrupt, for starters. And it is a lot more corrupt, or let’s say the corruption has a more serious impact on the people, than in the west. Because people have to actually suffer from hunger because of the corruption. You don’t have that in the west, at least not in my country. In my country, SD, if you have no job and no money, you go to some office and they will instantly pay your rent, pay for your health-insurance and pay you an additional 350€ per month. For example. Also, you have to go to school, every kid has to go to school for at least 10 years. Every kid, another example, has to go to see a doctor on a determined schedule. It’s the law. If you fail to obey, the police will come. Hitting children at school is illegal, so is hitting children illegal for their parents. It is even illegal to mistreat a child emotionally, you know, be unkind continously, punish the kid continously.
And so forth. Women are pretty much emancipated, and not only by law, but in general. I wouldn’t know anybody who thinks that women are less smart, less capable, less valuable or anything. It’s a regular view. To say women have to stay at home and take care of the household: Hilarious. Primitive.
You have a simplistic view of your society, you are only looking at it on face value. I am looking at it a lot more critically:
Corruption: Yes, India is a lot more corrupt on face value. You have to pay bribes in India, even the moment you step into the country this goes on. Rich people get away with crimes by paying off the police. Most Indians in India will try to con you This is symptomatic of a developing country - all developing countries have this problem. Corruption is reducing now though, and the public at large are fed up of it, but it is not going to come down overnight.
But to say the West is not corrupt is a lie. The West is not corrupt on face value, but at the deeper strata of society you will find a level of corruption which puts India to shame. Sinister corruption like planning invasions of countries based on political and economic interests, spreading war propoganda through the media(black ops) inciting civil wars in countries to break them apart, funding rouge regimes and profiteering from war. Do you know whose money funded the Nazi concentration camps - the Bush family, Standard Oil and other big Western companies. Do you know who trained the Indonesian army and armed them for the East Timorian genocide? America. Who weaponized Iraq and put Saddam Hussain in power and let him invade Kuwait? America.
India has never invaded a single country in its entire 10,000 year history - the West on the other hand has never stopped invading, looting, plundering.
However, if you extrapolate, if you had a curve or tendency of where a culture goes, Deva or Asuara, you would see that India goes Asura and the West goes Deva. War is much less accepted for decades already. Germany for example has suspende compulsory military service this year, and you could always refuse to do it (which, btw, I did, I worked in a hospital for a year instead). People donate billions to poor country, etc. etc.
I can see some trends of Deva culture appearing in the West, but this is because our Hindu gurus came to the West and spread Yoga, Vedanta etc We have gradually started to civilise your people, but the majority of you are still uncivilised. However, even India today as it stands is more civilised than your culture, we still retain much of spirituality and culture. We don’t have porn empires, our divorce rates is only 1%, we still respect our parents and we still respect education. Hence why our educated lot are outperforming your educated lot. Our media is still relatively clean and emphasise Indian values. We still have the most temples, churches, mosques and ashrams in the world.
And last not least my friend, take yourself. You are all about belittleing the west, denying the west anything, you declare billions of people demons, evil, barbarians, compare them even with animals, you try to drive a wedge between east and west, you try to scare people with world war III, and so forth. Your actions are evil, my friend, you’re a wrong doer.
No, I can’t. Why else would I ask. And as I just mentioned, you have already implied that India and China and Russia might/would/should team up to declare war on the west. In the Lybia-uprisind thread. Did you not? I can look it up for you.
I am not threatening you with a third world war or saying Hindus are going to invade you. I am telling you you will not get away with your imperialism in the world. You have too many enemies in the world today, and because you are not stopping your old habits of walking over everybody, you are putting yourself in a very dangerous position. India poses no physical threat to you - but Russia and China? Keep pushing and you will find out for yourself.
it’s the worlds largest importer of arms (while the people are poor and suffer from hunger), it has waged several wars already, many with their own brothers and sisters, there are a lot of riots going on, a lot of religious violence.
It is fairly obvious why India is the biggest importer of arms. It is surrounded by two nuclear powered enemies which have an alliance against it.
In all three wars tell me who started the wars? They were all started by Pakistan. One of these wars in 1971 was started by Pakistan commiting widescale genocide against the Hindus in what is now Bangladesh killing millions of them. India had to send in a liberation army, much like the West sent a liberation army into Nazi germany.
Don’t you agree? It’s my question. Do you think that your posts on this forum make a difference? So far it does not look like, with more then 3,000 postings already. So either you have to come with guns, give it up or tell me how you think you’ll achieve your goal.
I don’t come to this forum for political purposes. Of course 3000 or even 10,000 posts on this forum is not going to make much of a difference. I come here to discuss - this is an entertainment for me - not a mission.
That is actually interesting. Germany, for example, has paid billions to Israel for example. Billions over billions, German Wikipedia says:
“Milliarden” are "billions, see also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiedergutmachung
Was there nothing alike coming from Britain? Maybe Germany is more Deva then Britain then, I wouldn’t know.
Perhaps it is, but I would rather say Germany is less Asura than Britain
I must say though I quite like the German people, my ex-girlfriend was German
Aren’t you currently occupied with branding that recently deceased Indian guru a sex-offender? I have never heard your two leaders to be pedophiles, also am I unfamiliar with your other problems, I have only read that the Gita was a great book, which is why I bought it, there is a neat lecture about it, in a course called “Books that have made history - Books that can change your life”. And so forth. You perform selective perception here.
You read the Gita and thought it was great. But it seems like you have learned nothing from it.
Yeah, I had briefly looked into that Hindu nationalist book “Breaking India” too, that’s where you got this from. As far as I know the “Dalits” (what a fucked up concept to have Dalits at all, man) are supported to gain more rights in that caste-syste-driven-society. And sure, all religions try to convert people. It’s what you do on this forum, isn’t it, hypocrite.
The idea of “Dalits” did not exist in India until the 19th century when the British created it. You know the drill - divide and rule. The British wanted to convince lower caste Indians they were being oppressed by evil Brahmins and have been oppressed forever. Of course what you don’t read is that many leading Brahmin Hindus were fighting for reform, abolishing the caste system - but the British took credit. This goes on still today all efforts by Hindus fighting for reform in the caste systems and the rights of low caste Hindus are ignored by the Western media, to make it look like the Western missionaries are helping them. We hear so much about what Mother Terresa - but barely anything about Hindu gurus or saints who have done huge work in charity, service and upliftment of society.
The aim of course is not to help the “Dalits” but to incite separatist ideologies in them.
Rajiv Malhotra is not a Hindu nationalist by the way. He is a respected international scholar and serves on the faculties of many recognised universities. He himself disagrees with Hindutva ideology.
Yea, I’m warring against India. Totally. Want to anihilate India and Indians.
Actually it sounds like you. I think lot of people reading your latest reply are going to agree you have made some damn right chauvanistic statements, and even from a Western perspective your defense of Western immorality is embarrassing.
Our “hostilities” we won’t give up. We can’t, the western way, which is simply, as I had tried to explain in the Lybia-thread already, that which works best, is unstoppable. It will spread. The idea of equal rights, no matter who your father is, no matter where you live, no matter what gender you have. Freedom of religion, of speech of thought, access to information, access to porn, if you want it. There is no stopping this. There is no agreeing with you too, just some compensation I would actually agree to be fair, see my question above.
I expect strawmans from you anyway. I certainly did not say equal rights, women rights, freedom of religion, thought and speech were bad things. I don’t oppose these things either. But you see that is not what your culture represents. What you are spreading is: Materialism, capitalism, individualism and secularism which produce social inequality, mental disorders, wars, breakdown of families and spiritual impoverishment.
Have you seen Avatar by the way?
So what CLASH would we have to prepare for? I’m asking you again. Don’t be a coward, just openly say what you long for. Is it war? Or what? Because if it’s just offering what each civilisation has to offer to the people, dude, there is no question which civilisation will win. Not the one that is choking down the freedom of people.
It is already happening. We Hindus are not weak today, we are poised to become superpowers of this century. We are taking your jobs and we have political, intellectual and economic influence today. You are messing with the wrong people. If the Hindus consolidate you are in deep trouble.
However, your narrow mind can only see this in terms of war. Hindus do not go around blowing things up like Muslims because we have no jihad doctrines. But the damage we can do politically, intellectually and economically to you if you do not cease your hostilities against us, can be immense. We have already taken over many of your companies and now we are taking over your culture in a big way through spreading our culture. The new age moment in the West is actually been seeded by the Hindus - and it is spreading Hinduism in your society - without you even knowing it
You have pretty much proven what we said in the Libya uprising thread. You are a racist bigot. I thank you for a lot of things you said in this reply. You have exposed your true colours.[/quote]