Public Reality check (list) for a yogi?

Spirituality
#1

I read the ‘What is enlightment’-thread, and I read some things which can be really helpfull.
This thread might be nice if everybody posts his suggestions, so it can become an extensive inner checklist for considerations before receiving incomprehendable information from another person.
I’ve experienced people / ‘yogis’ in my life with mental illnesses like paranoia schizofrenia, narcisstic personality disorder. Also I have seen people who were once overly enthousiast about ‘spirituality’, but eventually turned their back to scriptures, and shifted to aversion to spirituality, since they’ve encountered too many negative experiences directly or indirectly.
I think everybody who experiences great things during practice, would still be helped by viewing this checklist once in a while, to ‘wash away’ any proudness-obstacles which will slow down progress.
Ofcoarse every requirement will be personal and not always be a shared opinion, but I think it can be a good sane starting point.

NOTE: if there’s already a thread like this (didnt see it), please let me know and I’ll add it there.

sqz:
[ul]
[li]He/She dont see themselves as guru, or would claim so, they just like to practice[/li][li]He/She dont engage in charismatic poetry/fantasy testimonies about their experiences[/li][li]He/She does not like to make people inferior to him/herself[/li][li]He/She does speak in simple normal language (not a parable/analogue/scripture-robot)[/li][li]He/She uses discipline only for himself, and love for others: “I have a suggestion for you” instead of “You are not ready yet” etc.[/li][li]He/She is a social person, not a vegetable.[/li][li]He/She does not habitually ridicule/opposes ‘true knowledge’ with math and science.[/li][li]He/She does not ridicule/oppose spiritual vs society or corporations, especially if he/she buys food in the supermarket.[/li][li]He/She does not keep instructions/techniques as secrets (or at least does not promote its result verbally, but presents techniques as they come in handy)[/li][li]He/She does not require full surrender (without having validation of your personal requirements)[/li][li]He/She is not proud about his achievements, but sees it as ‘normal’ (occidental yogi: “[I]A great man does not bear witness to his own greatness[/I]”)[/li][/ul]

(btw. its not that I expect every aspect mentioned above, but the less requirements are met, the more I internally refuse to simply accept knowledge. I expect an highly developed person to have a highly developed speech, as a result from his practices and not as a result from political/strategical thought processes)

SD:
[ol]
[li]They must be further down on the path than I am and have at least 10-20 years of sadhana in this life.[/li][li]Their virtues must be obvious: calmness, sharp intellect, brave, objective, factual, acutely aware, paitence, passion, focussed. I must feel in total awe of their virtues and a child before them.[/li][li]I must see evidence that they have some higher abilities[/li][li]I must feel alive in their presence[/li][/ol]

any more suggestions?

#2

ray_killeen:

He/She treats everybody in a fair equal way

("[I]I treat the cleaning people the same way I treat the CEO at my office[/I]")

#3

The only one I actually ‘checked off’ your list there, was:

He/She is a social person, not a vegetable.

I don’t speak in parables or scripture-robot, but I do tend to swear a bit…so that can be counted.

I have had certain ‘experiences’ but I realise I am not enlightened or anything.

Whether others attribute those to an ‘unstable frame of mind’ is okay by me, they can do that.

I am not out to become a ‘guru’ or anything. I really have nothing to personally gain by doing that anyway.

I just say what I think and feel…openly and honestly…as far as I know (which isn’t much).

As such (and due to a ‘bad vibe’ I am feeling here) I am thinking of moving on to the Hindu Dharma Forums now (the Shaiva section).

Only there, will people understand me (and talk to me). lolz

Peace.

#4

untrue! allow me to give you some good vibes: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

#5

Lolz…maybe it’s just me. Do you know what happens when one says [I]that[/I] too many times? :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyway, sorry for that, but it seems that ever since I arrived here, I have been judged, dissected, pigeonholed somewhere…then ignored…

Honestly? As long as whatever you are doing makes you a ‘better person’, it’s all good imho.

I just have a little ‘thing’ about people trying to rationalise all this and apply logic, mathematics and science to religion, just like how others have a problem with applying faith/belief to it.

I also feel that people are too much focussed on a ‘destination’ and lose themselves in that, rather than appreciating what is in front of us right now.

Even though I am not really good at being ‘friendly’, at least I am trying and I hope that in time…with all my posts, you will get to know more about me, people will understand me (not that I am trying to get people to understand me), but that is much preferrable to being dismissed offhand.

Aum Namah Shivaya

#6

agreed, I must also admit that as we gain experiences, it can become easier to recognize interesting people without logical reasoning (as in a checklists etc).
Call it feeling, insight, intuition if you will.

I just have a little ‘thing’ about people trying to rationalise all this and apply logic, mathematics and science to religion, just like how others have a problem with applying faith/belief to it.

I assume you are talking about extremists…but I think a combination of both extremes would make a nice equilibrium. I mean if I read a text (like your post), it usually gives me a certain feeling first. When I observe that feeling, things happen like: rationalizing, seeing it from faith perspective, trying to feel the direction of the words, I like to play with it. In the end, I think everybody should approach stuff as they want (like you said, if it improves them), but that freedom also means that other people can tell their perspective on it imho.
I bet if I would tell here that patanjali was poetic, or a scientist from out of space, I’m sure people will tell me their opinion about it.

Anyway, sorry for that, but it seems that ever since I arrived here, I have been judged, dissected, pigeonholed somewhere…then ignored…

I’m sorry to hear that you experience these feelings, but what do these words mean to you. If you read that again, do you get a negative feeling?
Or could you laugh about it?
And if so…why could you laugh about it?

hm maybe this is something for another thread :slight_smile:

#7

Nobody, for somebody who calls herself “nobody” you sure have worked pretty hard in various threads to establish yourself as somebody. Like in this thread we are talking about the checklist of a realized yogi, and you seem to identify yourself as a realized yogi by talking about how the checklist does not apply to you and how you are not going to become a guru(did we say you were?)

The negativity you are experiencing in terms of being judged is due to the arrogant statement you yourself have made on this forum the past few days. Such as “I have transcended the human condition, I am now living in the divine condition, I have eliminated the last bit of my ego, I have arrived” And your other statements about how you intend to share your wisdom with others or you might help eradicate the suffering of humanity if you decide. You would not have attracted any of this criticism if you were being humble.

Nobody likes a poser, sorry.

Be true to your name.

#8

I know.

Why do you think it is, I always catch myself when I say ‘Nobody will believe me’? and ‘Nobody cares’?

One of the traits I haven’t lost yet, is feeling the need to be ‘accepted’ or some kind of ‘validation’ or whatever.

I realise now, these things simply cannot be obtained on this forum.

So, I wish you all the best of luck, peace and happiness with this. Arguing about it won’t get anybody anywhere.

Please ask the admin to delete my account.

Aum Namah Shivaya

#9

Nobody, all I can say is good riddance. You are an obvious attention seeker, whose on this forum to market yourself as special and you want us to validate your delusions about yourself, and because that is not happening, but rather the opposite, you are throwing tantrums and threatening to leave this forum - but nobody who can see what you are doing is going to pander to you. Anybody can see you clearly are not somebody who has “transcended the human condition, living in the divine condition, eliminated the last bit of your ego, arrived” And to be frank you are going to receive the same critical reception wherever you go on the internet. You said that you intend to shift to the Hindu Dharma forums, as somebody whose had first hand experience with that forum and its members, I will let you know there are even more harsher people on that forum, who are intolerant and critical, especially of non-Indian Hindus.

Perhaps, your attitude can be explained as autism. In which case I should be more compassionate with you, but I know a few autistic people that use their condition as an excuse to get away with bad behaviour - and I am not going to let you get away. Sorry it is my nature to challenge posers like you. Genuine spiritually mature and accomplished people do not prowl around on internet forums seeking validation for how special they are.

#10

hm, as a thread-creator, it also should’ve been my responsibility to keep this thread nice and ontopic.
Next time, as soon as I write something offtopic, I will put it in a private message to the person in question.
In that way, I will not stimulate further offtopicness in the thread, resulting in cleaner, shorter threads.

#11

Sqz,

If you don’t mind, I would group your checklist, thus:

[B]Role:[/B]

o He/She dont see themselves as guru, or would claim so, they just like to practice
[B]High pedestal/ ‘holier-than-thou’[/B]:
o He/She does not like to make people inferior to him/herself
o He/She does not habitually ridicule/opposes ‘true knowledge’ with math and science.
o He/She does not ridicule/oppose spiritual vs society or corporations, especially if he/she buys food in the supermarket.
[B]Attitude:[/B]
o He/She is not proud about his achievements, but sees it as ‘normal’ (occidental yogi: “A great man does not bear witness to his own greatness”)
o He/She does not keep instructions/techniques as secrets (or at least does not promote its result verbally, but presents techniques as they come in handy)
[B]Real progress on the path[/B]:
o He/She dont engage in charismatic poetry/fantasy testimonies about their experiences
o He/She does speak in simple normal language (not a parable/analogue/scripture-robot)
o He/She uses discipline only for himself, and love for others: “I have a suggestion for you” instead of “You are not ready yet” etc.
[B]???[/B]
o He/She is a social person, not a vegetable.
o He/She does not require full surrender (without having validation of your personal requirements)

You have done a fairly good exercise. I have some comments to offer. The Western concept of “guru” is that of a geek, a ‘know-all’ and perhaps the attitudenal points stem from that. In the East, a guru is a very highly respected expert and teacher who takes total care of the student’s growth.

On the spiritual path, let us not forget that all of us are travelers and at any given point in time, we could be mapped all over the terrain. A major differentiator though is one’s acceptance by the inner guru and learning at its feet. Surrender to it, total devotion, and a single-minded pursuit automatically brings out an unmistakable equipoise, love for others, humility and a relaxed indifference to fame or fortune. It is spontaneous and not an adapted behaviour. Until then, one will find the same human weaknesses, evident in any other walk of life, not just yoga.

#12

Until then, one will find the same human weaknesses, evident in any other walk of life, not just yoga.

Agreed, every step forward in yoga, means many steps forward in all aspects of ones life.
Btw. I would imagine ‘innerguru’ as buddhi.

o He/She is a social person, not a vegetable.

hm poor language, I would like to drop this one. Maybe it should be “they should not oppose social vs vegetables” hehe :slight_smile:

o He/She does not require full surrender (without having validation of your personal requirements)

Well, we’ve seen SD’s describing from his own experiences that a western ‘householder’ can be pretty handy as a cashcow for so-called ‘teachers’.

#13

WoW thats all Im gonna say

#14

To OP.
Perhaps instead trying to carpet the world, you should wear sandals ? :slight_smile:

You propose such a an extensive checklist … I wonder if anyone could meet all the requirements.
This reduces greatly your opportunities for learning. You could learn from fools, even such like me. :slight_smile:

Remember, it’s not the pleasant things we learn the most from.

#15

:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

#17

Siro, thnx your point of view is [B]highly appreciated[/B].
Ofcoarse, the list is highly personal…and I agree, if everybody starts adding stuff to this thread…and looks at the thread as full guru-specification…then it will be very unlikely to meet such a person :slight_smile: but I hope you also agree that somewhere everybody has to draw a line to[B] discriminate between [/B]charlatans and sincere people.

‘spiritual sciences’ (in the broadest term possible) are mostly targeted at the mind or sometimes even personspecific abilities., something which can only be confirmed by direct experience, or one person. [B]Unfortunately[/B] there are many selfclaimed yogamasters/psychotherapists/etc out there who are not contributing to the ‘spiritual sciences’, but instead they are creating confusion (See Surya Deva’s thread ‘regulating the spiritual field’-thread).

Autobiography of a Yogi:
Quote:
Many disciples have a preconceived image of a guru, which they judge his words and actions. Such persons often complained they did not understand Sri Yukteswar.

"Neither do you understand God! I retorted on one occasion. "If a saint were clear to you, you would be one!"
So do not judge a Yogi by his life style, or how they carry themselves. Yoga is a science of the mind. Just as you wouldn’t easily be able to identify a man of science or a man of math out of a crowd of people in a club.

I don’t know the exact situation of this quote, (I did read yogananda’s book though) but aren’t you concerned with the harsh ‘devotional’ fallacies in this quote? The ad hominem (instead of explaining, just blame the person) and the authority (deciding who is (not) a saint)…doesnt that allow possibilities of unhealthy powerstructures when somebody has followers? Again, I’m not criticizing Yogananda here because of one quote with little context, but Upanishads/Patanjali are quite serious when it comes to the[B] power and control of speech related to karma[/B].

If somebody claims to be a yogamaster, and he is swearing excessively when things go wrong…I would have second thoughts instead of giving him the benefit of doubt…don’t you?

Should pramana be applied to everything but the guru?

#19

agreed.
btw. it should also be noted that anecdotal stories, myths and video aren’t resembling the truth perse, so we need to be careful there as well. iirc according to patanjali/samkhya: In order to sharpen the mind, pramana needs to be applied to discriminate fact from
almost-fact (so i guess also in cases when things get entertaining like with siddhis)

#20

AUTOBIOGRAPHY. :wink:

Now, i find that was a distorted view. Not the truth.

#22

[QUOTE=Siro;83293]With this said, it should also be noted that a person does not need to know anything about scriptures or the yogic writings to make spiritual progress and gain spiritual understanding. The only thing that is truly necessary is effective Sadhana practice - emphasis on effective.[/QUOTE]

It seems you negated the first sentence with the second sentence and vice versa.

#24

A lot of the warnings in Yoga that a person must live “so and so” lifestyle are to push potential offenders of the knowledge away.

fully agree