Questions re Kriya Yoga, Yogananda and Self-Realization Fellowship (SRF)

[QUOTE=Pawel;67425]I’m not 100% sure, but I read somewhere that spiritual teachers from the “East” started to use term “science” in relation to yoga/meditation etc. in order to appeal to scientific mind of “western” people. And I guess there is a role of people disappointed in christian faith as too strongly based on faith - “scientific” terminology (plus accent on personal experience) is what speaks to such people.

Scientific claims of speed of reaching God sound funny to me. I didn’t even think to treat it seriously…[/QUOTE]

Pawel:

Thank you for your reply, especially for the above parts in which you answered my question. (one of them)

Thanks everyone for the conversation.

[QUOTE=panoramix;67427]How to know that all around me isn’t an hallucination?
The only thing I can be sure about is that I exist…[/QUOTE]

How to know? Well, I can tell you, how: I am NOT a hallucination because I am also sure that I exist, and I am sure too, that I don’t hallucinate when I read your posts. What this means: it is only you of the two of us who is not sure if you are hallucinating when you read my posts, and who is not sure if I am hallucinating when I read your posts. Your not being sure if my posts here are hallucination therefore also implies that you are not sure that you are a hallucination or not. Therefore you are not sure if you exist.

There is a difference between the distinction non-physical and real-unreal. Even if the world is non-physical, it is a real world and it is logical, and it is a shared world. It is a system with rules that you cannot stretch, and if you try to stretch them, you will see that the rules will hit back and will be stronger than you.

Thanks again for the conversation and I wish you guys the very best.

I don’t have a problem with questions. I never said to stop asking questions. But at some point you have to throw down the book and get busy! :smiley:

I have never said anything is so because Yogananda says so. Look at anything I’ve posted here and you’ll never find that statement from me.

You seem to be working from a premise that anything said by one who practices kriya yoga is based on dogma, mind control and “cult-like” dictatorship! Maybe just maybe it’s from people’s experience. We can take a horse to water but we can’t make 'em drink.

You appear to want empirical evidence that kriya works, there’s only one way to get that. I don’t represent, an organization or anything. I’m speaking as one individual, nothing more nothing less. Take it or leave it!

:wink:

[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67415]Kriyayogini:

The wikipedia article refers to scientific sources, contrary to you, who only refer to your own opinion: “I think”

Of course we can discuss whatever we “think” until the end of times, yet the definition of science and scientific remains objective and independent of your or anyone’s opinion. And whatever Yogananda says does not qualify to be scientific either just because he says so.

“Me thinks thou doth protest too much.”

If you, as an apparently devoted advocate of Kriya Yoga, think that my asking the questions I raised here means “protesting”, then it is you who is protesting against reason and scepticism, ie, against the very basis of science. If your opinion represents that of the Kriya Yoga teachers/practitioners/organisations, then with your protest against my questions the rational conversation about Kriya Yoga ends here, all false claims of a “scientific” basis of yoga are dropped, and a cult-like dictatorship, dogma and thought-control around Kriya Yoga have been revealed.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=kriyayogini;67439]I don’t have a problem with questions. I never said to stop asking questions. But at some point you have to throw down the book and get busy! :smiley:

I have never said anything is so because Yogananda says so. Look at anything I’ve posted here and you’ll never find that statement from me.

You seem to be working from a premise that anything said by one who practices kriya yoga is based on dogma, mind control and “cult-like” dictatorship! Maybe just maybe it’s from people’s experience. We can take a horse to water but we can’t make 'em drink.

You appear to want empirical evidence that kriya works, there’s only one way to get that. I don’t represent, an organization or anything. I’m speaking as one individual, nothing more nothing less. Take it or leave it!

;)[/QUOTE]

I agree with kriyayogini.

But does not science work the same way as yoga? If a theory is not able to be proved in a scientific subject, then it is only a theory. On the contrary yoga is all about practice. You can experience everything written about yoga yourself. So why shouldn’t it be scientific?
Aren’t psychology, psychiatry, theology, art etc. also sciences?

Here is interesting work of Albert Einstein on “Science and Religion”:
http://being.publicradio.org/programs/einsteinsgod/einstein-scienceandreligion.shtml
… just keep in mind the time, when he wrote this.

Sounds to me you haven’t fully grasped the concept.

I was talking from an ontological level, I wasn’t talking about me but about our mind and conceptions.

One can NEVER be 100% sure about the reality of the experience one is having because anything endorsing it belongs to that experience. There is no Archimedes point.
Even if the worldview is shared as you say, they (people) too belong to one’s experience and can be part of one’s hallucination.

This is the logic that you should apply to your doubts about the experience of God communion, an experience as subject to doubt as any worldly one.

And what is real and what unreal? Well, reality is nothing but a shared (again) experience, but that does not mean it is ultimate but just “stable”.

[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67437]How to know? Well, I can tell you, how: I am NOT a hallucination because I am also sure that I exist, and I am sure too, that I don’t hallucinate when I read your posts. What this means: it is only you of the two of us who is not sure if you are hallucinating when you read my posts, and who is not sure if I am hallucinating when I read your posts. Your not being sure if my posts here are hallucination therefore also implies that you are not sure that you are a hallucination or not. Therefore you are not sure if you exist.

There is a difference between the distinction non-physical and real-unreal. Even if the world is non-physical, it is a real world and it is logical, and it is a shared world. It is a system with rules that you cannot stretch, and if you try to stretch them, you will see that the rules will hit back and will be stronger than you. [/QUOTE]

Thanks again everyone for your replies.

My conclusion from your posts and from my own research I did on the subject in the meantime:

I will definitely stay away from Kriya Yoga and from all forms of yoga and meditation.

Maybe one day you will see why and then you will share my view, too.

In any case I wish and hope the very best for you all. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67444]Thanks again everyone for your replies.

My conclusion from your posts and from my own research I did on the subject in the meantime:

I will definitely stay away from Kriya Yoga and from all forms of yoga and meditation.

Maybe one day you will see why and then you will share my view, too.

In any case I wish and hope the very best for you all. :)[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the wishes, wish you all the best too.

I’m afraid you came to this forum already with a conclusion.
Anyway, you don’t need Yoga to be happy.

Good luck!

[QUOTE=yogam;67441]But does not science work the same way as yoga? If a theory is not able to be proved in a scientific subject, then it is only a theory. On the contrary yoga is all about practice. You can experience everything written about yoga yourself. So why shouldn’t it be scientific?
Aren’t psychology, psychiatry, theology, art etc. also sciences?[/QUOTE]

I don’t think yoga works like science. Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

In “Elements of scientific method” is a scheme characterizing scientific approach:

"A linearized, pragmatic scheme of the four points above is sometimes offered as a guideline for proceeding:[49]

  1. Define a question
  2. Gather information and resources (observe)
  3. Form an explanatory hypothesis
  4. Test the hypothesis by performing an experiment and collecting data in a reproducible manner
  5. Analyze the data
  6. Interpret the data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
  7. Publish results
  8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)"

Art for sure doesn’t follow this path. I’m thinking about yoga… There are some elements but I think yoga practice is not scientific activity. Rather sort of engineering - there is a goal to which we aim according to specific method (which we believe is based on scientific foundation).

[QUOTE=panoramix;67446]
I’m afraid you came to this forum already with a conclusion.
[/QUOTE]

No, don’t be afraid :slight_smile:
I am not here to be right but to be correct.
I came here with my justified and sincere questions and expected that they would be answered in an honest and correct way.

I am here because I read a lot from P. Yogananda and then on the SRF site when I found it. And after that I was left with a lot of questions.
However, rather than answering these questions most of the replies I read here are full of logical fallacies (covert, subtle but very effective methods of deception)

So in lack of answers I can only make my own conclusion from what I observed here. And my conclusion to stay away from yoga has more reasons - one of them is the fallacious philosophy behind it.

I would be able to show you in detail what I mean, but anyone with intellectual honesty and an honest intelligence can figure out the same for himself. It is meaningless and useless to “discuss” a philosophy which stands on an arbitrary premise and refers to its own premise as an “argument” or “conclusion”. It is meaningless to discuss anything in a domain that operates with a “logic” that follows no logical rules, and where all arguments stand equally “valid”, including the invalid ones (logical fallacies) and in which anyone can freely give new definitions to any term, or introduce new terms and give them the definitions of other ones.

If you don’t pursue these deceptive methods on purpose (which I assume) and you simply don’t know about logical fallacies, you may want to look into the subject.

On a side note: if the unconscious or conscious reason behind these fallacies and evasiveness is fear from the truth, I think no one should feel obliged to stay unconditionally loyal to a religion or philosophy even after he realises that it’s false.
Instead of trying to avoid realising its falsehood, one may just get out of that philosophy and out of yoga.

If you don’t believe in God, just leave the deception and your altered state of consciousness just for the sake to preserve your sanity.
If you believe in God, then believe that God is both Love and Truth, who never deceived you with an illusory world, who has created a real world for you and everyone. If you want to honour such truthful God, then you can do your good works out there in the real world to make it a better place.

Either you believe in God or not, the real world out there needs you and your goodness out there - not only within.

If you are truthful to the truth and you mean well, then God will honour your integrity, courage and loyalty to the Truth, and will lead out of this deception. If you believe in a truthful and loving God, trust such God and distrust those who claim that this world is a deception. You can always turn around, - God would forgive you always and will be by your side when you will need him.

And, no, I didn’t conclude in advance to write this. It just happened, hopefully for the benefits for some who needed to read this.

Sorry but you’re a living proof of many things you have thrown in my face. And your last post was considerably disrespectful.

Please read this thread:
http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f16/yoga-and-science-6537-2.html

“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science.” -Albert Einstein

“There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true.” - Niels B?hr

[QUOTE=panoramix;67474]Sorry but you’re a living proof of many things you have thrown in my face. And your last post was considerably disrespectful.
[/QUOTE]

Panoramix:
Thanks for your reply. If that’s how you interpreted my post, then I failed to express my thoughts properly, for which I apologise. I didn’t mean to hurt your or anyone’s feelings.

If you found it disrespectful that I mentioned about the fallacies I encountered on this thread, I should add: I just meant to explain why I wish not to discuss this any longer. Most of the replies - with some exceptions for which I am thankful - are objectively defined as fallacies, mainly some subtypes of red herring.
But please don’t take me wrong. All of you guys have made some great points, which I’ll take home, but it was only Pawel who finally replied with a specific answer to one of my questions and without a fallacy.

The answer you offered to my questions is your philosophy, which is one without an Archimedes point. In such philosophy, where there is no objective, shared premise, and under the “rules of no rules”, where consistency is not necessary and contradictions and fallacies are allowed, all statements rest on an arbitrary, randomly chosen premise. If anyone may pick and replace his premise with another at any time and anyone can appoint his own premise and “dictate the truth” accordingly, there is no point in any discussion, either in the topic of my questions or in any other subject.

Regarding the logical fallacies I referred to: one of the several examples I can mention your post in which “you’re afraid that I came here with a conclusion.” Your post is objectively defined as assuming behaviour and it also qualifies as the logical fallacy called “poisoning the well” (=when something is presented about a person with the effect of discrediting everything that the target person says)

The same is true about your assumption regarding my last post. Contrary to what you think, my post was not disrespectful. No, I wrote everything here with the deepest respect for you and everyone on this thread - and with compassion, too.

Pawel and Yogam:
Thanks everyone for your replies, and again, my best wishes for you and everyone :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67490]Pawel and Yogam:
Thanks everyone for your replies, and again, my best wishes for you and everyone :)[/QUOTE]

All the best to you too! Good luck with your search and endeavors!

[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67490]If you found it disrespectful that I mentioned about the fallacies I encountered on this thread, I should add: I just meant to explain why I wish not to discuss this any longer. Most of the replies - with some exceptions for which I am thankful - are objectively defined as fallacies, mainly some subtypes of red herring.
But please don’t take me wrong. All of you guys have made some great points, which I’ll take home, but it was only Pawel who finally replied with a specific answer to one of my questions and without a fallacy.[/QUOTE]

You are unable to defend your point, that’s all. You every time hide behind the term “fallacy”.
Sorry but you’re a robed skeleton…

Wish you well, take care.

Bye

Interesting thread and interesting questions. I would like to answer your questions, but I don’t have time at the moment. I will respond later.

I don’t think the questioner wants any answers other than what he supposes. That is fine. I had no idea if yoga “worked” I saw its proof in my experience with the practice of it. At some point i just had to try it for myself, all the inquiries jn the world wont show what actual experience did.

I found this forum while I was trying to find answers to certain questions that are related to yoga and Kriya Yoga specifically.

I am a probably good candidate to answer your questions, as I have been initiated in the tradition of Kriya Yoga and a tradition related to it, Tantra yoga.

The above claims - as well as many others listed on the SRF website - are very strong claims and many of them are contradictory to one another. These claims also imply their scientific validity as they are called “definite scientific techniques” and the “scientific methods of yoga” in attaining direct personal experience and unity with God.

These claims are not unique to SRF, in fact pretty much any organization that teaches Yoga claims that their techniques are scientific. The claims that Yoga is scientific is also made by the tradition itself from which it originates and by several modern scientists. Why? Where there is smoke, there is fire. Yoga is called scientific because the techniques when practiced as prescribed tend to produce similar effects on the body and mind. This is why they have become the subject of study of many scientific studies and even recommended by prominent scientists and doctors.

Another reason Yoga is called scientific is because like any science it has an epistemology and a systematic theory underpinning it i.e., it is based on a system of thought based on actual evidence. This sets it apart from a faith, because faith is based on belief alone. I will not go into details about the epistemology and scientific theory of Yoga, because I don’t have time.

  • How can Yogananda and his followers scientifically prove that someone’s personal experience and the “truths” derived from such experience - either Yogananda’s or that of others - are with objective and scientific validity?

It is proven by gathering data and comparing the data to make generalizations. It is very much like any science, except while most sciences gather external data, in Yoga internal data is gathered. The data Yoga is concerned with is the structures of the mind which are objective, and not the content of the mind, which is subjective. In Yoga psychology for example they have been able to analyze the structures of the mind into a lot of detail, there are about 40 terms in Sanskrit referring to psychological entities e.g., jnanaindryias; the sensory organs from which we receive data from the external world; manas, the aspect of our mind that organizes information from the sensory data received; buddhi, the executive function of our mind that makes decisions based on the data; ahamkara, the ego function which personalizes the data received(i.e filtering it according to personal values, beliefs etc, and chitta, the storehouse of memories of sensory impressions. These are some of the main mental structures recognized in Yoga psychology.

Of course if you analyzed your own mental structures you will find these structures do in fact exist. There are certain predictions I can make about what will take place in your mental world based on the knowledge we have of how these structures work. For example, I predict that if you sit down to meditate by focusing your mind on a focal point. The first thing you will experience is your mind wandering from your focal point into other thought activity. Initially, this thought activity will be high. You will find it close to impossible to hold your mind onto your focal point. If you are able to successfully maintain your focal point for a prolonged duration, I can predict your mental activity will begin to lessen and you will experience the emotional state of calmness. If you can maintain it further, I predict you will experience an altered state of consciousness and altered perceptions of time and space.

The Yoga I have described above is known as the Yoga of mind-control(Raja Yoga) There is another Yoga called the Yoga of body-control(Hatha Yoga) and Kriya Yoga is a type of body-control yoga. Just as we can make generalizations about what will happen in your mental world in meditation, we can make generalizations about what will happen in your mental world when certain aspects of your body are manipulated. For example, if you alter your breathing cycles and reduce your breath from 20 per min to 7 per min, I can predict that your thought activity will lessen and you will experience greater calmness. There are also physiological predictions we can make about what will happen to various physiological indices in your body(e.g., brainwave emission, heart rate, hormone levels) There is ample data if you care to look in peer reviewed scientific journals on this subject.

Kriya Yoga is slightly different to Hatha Yoga, because while Hatha Yoga’s main emphasis is on asanas, mudras, bandhas, shatkarmas to awaken the Kundalini energy in the cerberal-spinal column by purifying the psychic nerves, Kriya Yoga’s focus is on pranayamas to do the same. Kriya Yoga claims itself to be the fastest path to self-realization/god-realization/enlightenment, because it works directly on the energy body(pranamaya kosha) with advanced Yoga practices of breath work and meditation. In contrast, Hatha Yoga works directly on the physical body(annamaya kosha) with lower practices of asanas.

  • What kind of scientific proof they can provide that the personal experiences through these yoga and meditation practices are from God, rather than from hallucinations, self-hypnosis, or some other not-shared mental states? (The perceived “beauty” of these personal images, “bliss” or other effects perceived as positive do not necessarily imply the presence of God.)

They cannot provide proof of these claims, because these claims are subjective interpretations of objective mental states. Somebody who is religious minded will interpret these experiences in religious terms like god and heaven etc, whereas the non-religious minded will interpret them in more secular terms like describing feelings(bliss) They are both experiencing the same thing, but they are using different languages to describe it.

  • If we assume the existence of God and the spiritual realm, how can they scientifically prove that the experience attained through these methods is from and with God rather than from some other, possibly misleading and malevolent spirits of the spiritual realm?

It is the quality of experience one is having that they can be sure that no evil entity is producing it for them. That bliss that they experience in meditation makes them compassionate, wise and loving people. They return from these states as reborn people. They no longer identify with their former selves. It is like the caterpillar returning as the butterfly. If an evil entity has produced this beauty, virtue and goodness we see in them, then it cannot be evil, otherwise we have a contradiction in terms. If this is evil, then I prefer to be evil :wink:

  • Another question beyond the above: In addition to those of Kriya Yoga, do the practitioners and teachers of other forms/types of yoga and/or meditation claim as well that their methods eventually lead to a personal unity with God or this is a special case?

Almost all forms of Yoga make the same claim. Yoga is after all an ancient Hindu science for realizing unity with Brahman(Hindu concept of god) Hence why most Yoga organizations who are loyal to their traditional roots make similar claims.

someone said; about a scientific method;

  1. Define a question
  2. Gather information and resources (observe)
  3. Form an explanatory hypothesis
  4. Test the hypothesis by performing an experiment and collecting data in a reproducible manner
  5. Analyze the data
  6. Interpret the data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
  7. Publish results
  8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)"

Art for sure doesn’t follow this path. I’m thinking about yoga…??

I would say that since Yoga does produce quantifiable results in
(a) ones health and well being[positive life attitudes]
(b) ones brain changes and physiological changes
© ones intellectual and intuitive abilities
(d) ones Psychological freedom from dogmatism and subjectivism.
(e) ones state of happiness
(f) ones dealings with others
and other factors …

some of which can also be measured by technical instruments,
some which cannot.
One can say that psychiatry is or is not a science.
Even those areas such as geology and archaeology etc
which are considered to be sciences are all depending on
data derived from sensory inputs can also be said to be
unreliable and called therefore unscientific.
It is evident that the original poster on this thread had
a particular mindset on this topic before posting the questions.
However, that poster may really be looking for a type of
answer that cannot be given on any subject let alone Yoga.

I would say that Yoga, with its systematic and fully
annotated categories and consistent exceptional results
in enhancing and enriching human evolution, its ability
to give one greater mental and social freedom from
dogmatisms etc, can to quote Carl Jung " is capable of
Undreamed of possibilities."
If you want to be free of prejudicial and dogmatic
attitudes, of pessimism and narrowness of scope,
free of pathological psychological dispositions,
yoga is for you!
The unique thing about kriya yoga is that it[like Raja Yoga]
encompasses all the major possible approaches to
self transfomative techniques with amazing results.
Just last week CNN poll showed that over 20 million Americans
now practice some form of Yoga, a change of 500%
in the last ten years. World wide yoga is literally sweeping
the world with good reason. It is giving positive and
holistic life transforming results to million of persons.
If the original poster wants nothing to do with yoga,
I’m sure in this interesting world he/she may
eventually find some other good path to their liking.
No matter what, personal effort and commitment will
be needed, not just endless theorizing.
The results are in -millions are finding life much
better with yoga!