Questions re Kriya Yoga, Yogananda and Self-Realization Fellowship (SRF)


#41

[QUOTE=panoramix;67474]Sorry but you’re a living proof of many things you have thrown in my face. And your last post was considerably disrespectful.
[/QUOTE]

Panoramix:
Thanks for your reply. If that’s how you interpreted my post, then I failed to express my thoughts properly, for which I apologise. I didn’t mean to hurt your or anyone’s feelings.

If you found it disrespectful that I mentioned about the fallacies I encountered on this thread, I should add: I just meant to explain why I wish not to discuss this any longer. Most of the replies - with some exceptions for which I am thankful - are objectively defined as fallacies, mainly some subtypes of red herring.
But please don’t take me wrong. All of you guys have made some great points, which I’ll take home, but it was only Pawel who finally replied with a specific answer to one of my questions and without a fallacy.

The answer you offered to my questions is your philosophy, which is one without an Archimedes point. In such philosophy, where there is no objective, shared premise, and under the “rules of no rules”, where consistency is not necessary and contradictions and fallacies are allowed, all statements rest on an arbitrary, randomly chosen premise. If anyone may pick and replace his premise with another at any time and anyone can appoint his own premise and “dictate the truth” accordingly, there is no point in any discussion, either in the topic of my questions or in any other subject.

Regarding the logical fallacies I referred to: one of the several examples I can mention your post in which “you’re afraid that I came here with a conclusion.” Your post is objectively defined as assuming behaviour and it also qualifies as the logical fallacy called “poisoning the well” (=when something is presented about a person with the effect of discrediting everything that the target person says)

The same is true about your assumption regarding my last post. Contrary to what you think, my post was not disrespectful. No, I wrote everything here with the deepest respect for you and everyone on this thread - and with compassion, too.

Pawel and Yogam:
Thanks everyone for your replies, and again, my best wishes for you and everyone :slight_smile:


#42

[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67490]Pawel and Yogam:
Thanks everyone for your replies, and again, my best wishes for you and everyone :)[/QUOTE]

All the best to you too! Good luck with your search and endeavors!


#43

[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67490]If you found it disrespectful that I mentioned about the fallacies I encountered on this thread, I should add: I just meant to explain why I wish not to discuss this any longer. Most of the replies - with some exceptions for which I am thankful - are objectively defined as fallacies, mainly some subtypes of red herring.
But please don’t take me wrong. All of you guys have made some great points, which I’ll take home, but it was only Pawel who finally replied with a specific answer to one of my questions and without a fallacy.[/QUOTE]

You are unable to defend your point, that’s all. You every time hide behind the term “fallacy”.
Sorry but you’re a robed skeleton…

Wish you well, take care.

Bye


#44

Interesting thread and interesting questions. I would like to answer your questions, but I don’t have time at the moment. I will respond later.


#45

I don’t think the questioner wants any answers other than what he supposes. That is fine. I had no idea if yoga “worked” I saw its proof in my experience with the practice of it. At some point i just had to try it for myself, all the inquiries jn the world wont show what actual experience did.


#46

I found this forum while I was trying to find answers to certain questions that are related to yoga and Kriya Yoga specifically.

I am a probably good candidate to answer your questions, as I have been initiated in the tradition of Kriya Yoga and a tradition related to it, Tantra yoga.

The above claims - as well as many others listed on the SRF website - are very strong claims and many of them are contradictory to one another. These claims also imply their scientific validity as they are called “definite scientific techniques” and the “scientific methods of yoga” in attaining direct personal experience and unity with God.

These claims are not unique to SRF, in fact pretty much any organization that teaches Yoga claims that their techniques are scientific. The claims that Yoga is scientific is also made by the tradition itself from which it originates and by several modern scientists. Why? Where there is smoke, there is fire. Yoga is called scientific because the techniques when practiced as prescribed tend to produce similar effects on the body and mind. This is why they have become the subject of study of many scientific studies and even recommended by prominent scientists and doctors.

Another reason Yoga is called scientific is because like any science it has an epistemology and a systematic theory underpinning it i.e., it is based on a system of thought based on actual evidence. This sets it apart from a faith, because faith is based on belief alone. I will not go into details about the epistemology and scientific theory of Yoga, because I don’t have time.

  • How can Yogananda and his followers scientifically prove that someone’s personal experience and the “truths” derived from such experience - either Yogananda’s or that of others - are with objective and scientific validity?

It is proven by gathering data and comparing the data to make generalizations. It is very much like any science, except while most sciences gather external data, in Yoga internal data is gathered. The data Yoga is concerned with is the structures of the mind which are objective, and not the content of the mind, which is subjective. In Yoga psychology for example they have been able to analyze the structures of the mind into a lot of detail, there are about 40 terms in Sanskrit referring to psychological entities e.g., jnanaindryias; the sensory organs from which we receive data from the external world; manas, the aspect of our mind that organizes information from the sensory data received; buddhi, the executive function of our mind that makes decisions based on the data; ahamkara, the ego function which personalizes the data received(i.e filtering it according to personal values, beliefs etc, and chitta, the storehouse of memories of sensory impressions. These are some of the main mental structures recognized in Yoga psychology.

Of course if you analyzed your own mental structures you will find these structures do in fact exist. There are certain predictions I can make about what will take place in your mental world based on the knowledge we have of how these structures work. For example, I predict that if you sit down to meditate by focusing your mind on a focal point. The first thing you will experience is your mind wandering from your focal point into other thought activity. Initially, this thought activity will be high. You will find it close to impossible to hold your mind onto your focal point. If you are able to successfully maintain your focal point for a prolonged duration, I can predict your mental activity will begin to lessen and you will experience the emotional state of calmness. If you can maintain it further, I predict you will experience an altered state of consciousness and altered perceptions of time and space.

The Yoga I have described above is known as the Yoga of mind-control(Raja Yoga) There is another Yoga called the Yoga of body-control(Hatha Yoga) and Kriya Yoga is a type of body-control yoga. Just as we can make generalizations about what will happen in your mental world in meditation, we can make generalizations about what will happen in your mental world when certain aspects of your body are manipulated. For example, if you alter your breathing cycles and reduce your breath from 20 per min to 7 per min, I can predict that your thought activity will lessen and you will experience greater calmness. There are also physiological predictions we can make about what will happen to various physiological indices in your body(e.g., brainwave emission, heart rate, hormone levels) There is ample data if you care to look in peer reviewed scientific journals on this subject.

Kriya Yoga is slightly different to Hatha Yoga, because while Hatha Yoga’s main emphasis is on asanas, mudras, bandhas, shatkarmas to awaken the Kundalini energy in the cerberal-spinal column by purifying the psychic nerves, Kriya Yoga’s focus is on pranayamas to do the same. Kriya Yoga claims itself to be the fastest path to self-realization/god-realization/enlightenment, because it works directly on the energy body(pranamaya kosha) with advanced Yoga practices of breath work and meditation. In contrast, Hatha Yoga works directly on the physical body(annamaya kosha) with lower practices of asanas.

  • What kind of scientific proof they can provide that the personal experiences through these yoga and meditation practices are from God, rather than from hallucinations, self-hypnosis, or some other not-shared mental states? (The perceived “beauty” of these personal images, “bliss” or other effects perceived as positive do not necessarily imply the presence of God.)

They cannot provide proof of these claims, because these claims are subjective interpretations of objective mental states. Somebody who is religious minded will interpret these experiences in religious terms like god and heaven etc, whereas the non-religious minded will interpret them in more secular terms like describing feelings(bliss) They are both experiencing the same thing, but they are using different languages to describe it.

  • If we assume the existence of God and the spiritual realm, how can they scientifically prove that the experience attained through these methods is from and with God rather than from some other, possibly misleading and malevolent spirits of the spiritual realm?

It is the quality of experience one is having that they can be sure that no evil entity is producing it for them. That bliss that they experience in meditation makes them compassionate, wise and loving people. They return from these states as reborn people. They no longer identify with their former selves. It is like the caterpillar returning as the butterfly. If an evil entity has produced this beauty, virtue and goodness we see in them, then it cannot be evil, otherwise we have a contradiction in terms. If this is evil, then I prefer to be evil :wink:

  • Another question beyond the above: In addition to those of Kriya Yoga, do the practitioners and teachers of other forms/types of yoga and/or meditation claim as well that their methods eventually lead to a personal unity with God or this is a special case?

Almost all forms of Yoga make the same claim. Yoga is after all an ancient Hindu science for realizing unity with Brahman(Hindu concept of god) Hence why most Yoga organizations who are loyal to their traditional roots make similar claims.


#47

someone said; about a scientific method;

  1. Define a question
  2. Gather information and resources (observe)
  3. Form an explanatory hypothesis
  4. Test the hypothesis by performing an experiment and collecting data in a reproducible manner
  5. Analyze the data
  6. Interpret the data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
  7. Publish results
  8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)"

Art for sure doesn’t follow this path. I’m thinking about yoga…??

I would say that since Yoga does produce quantifiable results in
(a) ones health and well being[positive life attitudes]
(b) ones brain changes and physiological changes
© ones intellectual and intuitive abilities
(d) ones Psychological freedom from dogmatism and subjectivism.
(e) ones state of happiness
(f) ones dealings with others
and other factors …

some of which can also be measured by technical instruments,
some which cannot.
One can say that psychiatry is or is not a science.
Even those areas such as geology and archaeology etc
which are considered to be sciences are all depending on
data derived from sensory inputs can also be said to be
unreliable and called therefore unscientific.
It is evident that the original poster on this thread had
a particular mindset on this topic before posting the questions.
However, that poster may really be looking for a type of
answer that cannot be given on any subject let alone Yoga.

I would say that Yoga, with its systematic and fully
annotated categories and consistent exceptional results
in enhancing and enriching human evolution, its ability
to give one greater mental and social freedom from
dogmatisms etc, can to quote Carl Jung " is capable of
Undreamed of possibilities."
If you want to be free of prejudicial and dogmatic
attitudes, of pessimism and narrowness of scope,
free of pathological psychological dispositions,
yoga is for you!
The unique thing about kriya yoga is that it[like Raja Yoga]
encompasses all the major possible approaches to
self transfomative techniques with amazing results.
Just last week CNN poll showed that over 20 million Americans
now practice some form of Yoga, a change of 500%
in the last ten years. World wide yoga is literally sweeping
the world with good reason. It is giving positive and
holistic life transforming results to million of persons.
If the original poster wants nothing to do with yoga,
I’m sure in this interesting world he/she may
eventually find some other good path to their liking.
No matter what, personal effort and commitment will
be needed, not just endless theorizing.
The results are in -millions are finding life much
better with yoga!


#48

I would like to give my opinion as a Kriyban of both SRF & Kriya Yoga International.

If you have read Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda and it has either struck a cord in you or made you think oh wow someone is writing about things I already know and you feel attracted towards Kriya Yoga then by all means take the next step.

I for one immediatly felt like I was coming home.

SRF Lessons are a great way for a person beginning in yoga to learn some fundamentals and not get into phantasy yoga or new age claptrappery. Later you can apply for Kriya Yoga lessons and take initiation.

SRF is a safe place to start for anyone, their belief system is too say the least a bit odd. The good news is the yoga methods do work belief not required.

P.Y. is no longer living so do realize the student have been in charge for many decades now and it is a Church as well.

SRF can teach you the beginning stages then later a stripped down simplified version of Kriya Pranayama that is very effective.

KYI is also an orginization and is of the same lineage of teachers to include P.Y. Unlike SRF you start off head first after Kriya initiation and it may be a bit much for a beginner.

Do the methods work? In a word YES. You have many questions, that will require you to activly practice Kriya Yoga to discover if the hype is true, I can not answer your questions nor can anyone else. The answers are found by doing the best thing I can point out is both orginizations are safe to deal with. I know this from experience of over 20 years not guess work.


#49

[B][I]About Paramahansa Yogananda’s and His Self-Realization Fellowship/YSS![/I][/B]

SRF is not only a good place to start for Kriya Yoga, but it will take you
as far and as quickly[depending on ones efforts] as any other variation
of the Kriya path.
Since Yogananda’s demise, The SRF has Not been run by students but by
great Yogi-saints of high divine realization. Re; Daya Mata, Rajarsi, Mrinalini Mata
and others on the SRF board. Of course there are also many other monastics [swamis]
doing work as well throughout the world.
No one has yet shown clearly where SRF kriya has been watered down, at any
rate look at the people it is producing.
Before Yogananda left His form, he made sure he left the method as a very
workable system. I have met some of these great souls in person, and
experienced their darshan and wisdom.
When one reaches the Paramahansa stage, even after the death of the body
that person is a “living master.” Immediately after He left the body behind
He has worked in my life the the lives of many others.
He has kept His promise "when I am gone do not think that I am no longer
with you, I will be as much with sincere devotees as I am now…"
This is where many devotees get confused, a teacher may not be advanced
enough to be a true Guru, and may not even be a “spiritually living Guru” at
all. It is not easy to know who is who for the average devotee.
It may be nice to think you have live[ not spiritually living] teacher,
but keep in mind that teacher may not be spiritually realized[living]
and may be gone tomorrow also. What then?


#50

[QUOTE=PYislove;77230][B][I]About Paramahansa Yogananda’s and His Self-Realization Fellowship/YSS![/I][/B]

SRF is not only a good place to start for Kriya Yoga, but it will take you
as far and as quickly[depending on ones efforts] as any other variation
of the Kriya path.
Since Yogananda’s demise, The SRF has Not been run by students but by
great Yogi-saints of high divine realization. Re; Daya Mata, Rajarsi, Mrinalini Mata
and others on the SRF board. Of course there are also many other monastics [swamis]
doing work as well throughout the world.
No one has yet shown clearly where SRF kriya has been watered down, at any
rate look at the people it is producing.
Before Yogananda left His form, he made sure he left the method as a very
workable system. I have met some of these great souls in person, and
experienced their darshan and wisdom.
When one reaches the Paramahansa stage, even after the death of the body
that person is a “living master.” Immediately after He left the body behind
He has worked in my life the the lives of many others.
He has kept His promise "when I am gone do not think that I am no longer
with you, I will be as much with sincere devotees as I am now…"
This is where many devotees get confused, a teacher may not be advanced
enough to be a true Guru, and may not even be a “spiritually living Guru” at
all. It is not easy to know who is who for the average devotee.
It may be nice to think you have live[ not spiritually living] teacher,
but keep in mind that teacher may not be spiritually realized[living]
and may be gone tomorrow also. What then?[/QUOTE]

There are accounts of others that show P.Y. Did modify the Kriya of Lahiri Mahasaya i will put some links up for everyone. And address some more of this busy rightnow.


#51

With respect
I have read some of those sites met one of those persons
, they may show where Yogananda rearranged the approach to the kriya
steps, but the fact remains that Yogananda’s
methodology is complete and is still producing desired results.
His arrangement of teaching kriya is a good one.
In Self-Realization Fellowship the full power of
Shaktipat and Parampara are still in effect, nothing
is lost.
Remember - some of those teachers also have their own
agendas and speak from their own interests.
How does all this work?


#52

[B]The Sumarization!@[/B]

SRF [promise] says:

the way to “find God” & attain “unity with God” & find “God’s eternal bliss” through a direct personal experience,

I started to have doubts becaue these are strong claims.

and many of them are contradictory to one another.

[B]OH . . . contradictory? Personally . . . I think not.[/B]

How can Yogananda and his followers scientifically prove that someone’s personal experience and the “truths” derived from such experience - either Yogananda’s or that of others - are with objective and scientific validity?

[B]Direct personal experience ala yoga sutras. You experience. and flowing from that there is - therefore “you know” You apply the methods, the result comes. Seek and ye shall find. This is the promise of the Lord.[/B]

  • On what objective basis do they call their yoga methods “scientific” and what exactly is their definition of science and scientific method?

[B]“tenable”. I.e. The proof is in the pudding. [/B]

Do they have access to all other personal experiences and individual paths?

[B]The end is one. Shyama & Babaji have codified, boiled it down to the essentials.
The results are experential. You experience them. As patanjali says "the modes of correct knowledge are “direct percption”

DONT BE SCARED.
[/B]


#53

[QUOTE=PYislove;77232]With respect
I have read some of those sites met one of those persons
, they may show where Yogananda rearranged the approach to the kriya
steps, but the fact remains that Yogananda’s
methodology is complete and is still producing desired results.
His arrangement of teaching kriya is a good one.
In Self-Realization Fellowship the full power of
Shaktipat and Parampara are still in effect, nothing
is lost.
Remember - some of those teachers also have their own
agendas and speak from their own interests.
How does all this work?[/QUOTE]

This is the start of a good discussion which I believe could be helpful to people. I will be starting a new thread to avoid hijacking this one. Come on over if you feel like it.

By the way are you the same person that reviews on Amazon concerning P.Y.'s Autobiography of a yogi?


#54

[QUOTE=PYislove;77232]With respect
I have read some of those sites met one of those persons
, they may show where Yogananda rearranged the approach to the kriya
steps, but

[/QUOTE] the fact remains that Yogananda’s
methodology is complete and is still producing desired results.[QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]His arrangement of teaching kriya is a good one.
In Self-Realization Fellowship the full power of
Shaktipat and Parampara are still in effect, nothing
is lost.
Remember - some of those teachers also have their own
agendas and speak from their own interests.
How does all this work?

How do you know this is fact? What has lead you to say it is a complete method? Key points of the kriya yoga techniques have been changed and some left out completely. SRF does not teach khechari. Remember, when Yogananda arrived in America back in the 1920’s it was a different era. These people were unfamiliar with yoga and its practices. I think most of the folks were unable to practice some of the techniques or in the case of Khechari it may have “alarmed” many. Just my opinion as to why some aspects have been left out.[QUOTE][/QUOTE]

This is your opinion that the arrangement of teaching is a good one. Someone else may have a different opinion. Dear SRF devotee, you should differentiate between fact and your personal opinion. Do not misunderstand this as attacking SRF, or Yogananda for with his arrival to America the awareness of this technique termed Kriya Yoga was spread.


#55

Yogananda was initially teaching Kechari to some advanced enough then.
If he dropped it, it was probably not only its difficulty, but was it really
necessary. He found it wasn’t.
how complete was it? People have been on research in India and
found no significance to claims of "better kriya methods."
It would all be so hard to prove at any rate.
Just like sitting in the lotus posture, as great as it is, it is totally unnecessary.
He did not guess at these variations, he tested them and left us
with what worked with the least complication.
If every ritual of kriya was absolutely necessary, even LH would not have
simplified it so much.
Most important of all, Yogananda and others reached greatest heights with
the system as he left it,
If it works, what else is really needed?
The insistence that so many other things might be
needed may be to fulfill the personal agendas of other
teachers, more that the actual necessity of those things.
“They” have to claim they have something no one else
has to attract devotees. But the real test is - are their
claims producing something greater than Yogananda’s legacy?
This is all very debatable!


#56

[QUOTE=PYislove;77266]Yogananda was initially teaching Kechari to some advanced enough then.
If he dropped it, it was probably not only its difficulty, but was it really
necessary. He found it wasn’t.
how complete was it? People have been on research in India and
found no significance to claims of "better kriya methods."
It would all be so hard to prove at any rate.
Just like sitting in the lotus posture, as great as it is, it is totally unnecessary.
He did not guess at these variations, he tested them and left us
with what worked with the least complication.
If every ritual of kriya was absolutely necessary, even LH would not have
simplified it so much.
Most important of all, Yogananda and others reached greatest heights with
the system as he left it,
If it works, what else is really needed?
The insistence that so many other things might be
needed may be to fulfill the personal agendas of other
teachers, more that the actual necessity of those things.
“They” have to claim they have something no one else
has to attract devotees. But the real test is - are their
claims producing something greater than Yogananda’s legacy?
This is all very debatable![/QUOTE]

All you are doing is spreading the Church of SRF point of view and it is not correct. Kechari is most certainly needed from personal experience not the company line. I can report it closes the circuit and the effect is profound.

I deeply respect P.Y. More than you will ever know. SRF is not P.Y. Unless you are very old you are relying on those that came after the Masters departure.

I can appreciate the profound change SRF has brought in your life. Truly I can Paramahansa Yoganandas Lessons have been with me for well over 25 years.

Lets bottom line this shall we?

  1. I ask you to stop writing about agendas ok? Everybody & Every orginization to include SRF has one. That does not by itself make it bad as your writing insinuates.

  2. Babaji and Lahiri Mahasaya expressly forbid the forming of groups and orginizations around Kriya.

  3. Lahiri Mahasaya is the ultimate authority on Kriya second only to Babaji. L.M. Codified Kriya for the householder.

  4. P.Y. Simplified as he saw fit, good I will not dare argue what he decided I have no idea what his reasons were. My question is did he? Or was it someone who came after him? Did he sit with you and say dear one I changed L.H.'s kriya because it was not as streamlined as it could be? No he did not now did he? So how do you know anyhing more than those whom you respect have taught you? Answer you do not.

  5. I asked the monks of KYI in person I said Swamaji why is your version of Kriya so different from what I was taught by SRF? Why does it match how his book described the practice so much more than what SRF teaches? by the way he did know the SRF methods. He said you must understand Paramahansaji came to America in the 1920’s people then thought sitting on the floor was insane. So he changed things so his audience of the time could derive some good from Kriya practice. Sri Harinanda came to America in the 70’s he looked around and said the people are ready lets give it all to them.

This very discussion is exactly why forming groups around Kriya practice was forbidden. Furthermore the alterations in Yogirag Lahiri Mahasayas teaching of Kriya is another. I hold suspect every group teaching Kriya based on this injunction not to.

I furthermore state that anyone knowing the forming of groups around Kriya was forbidden even described as such in Autobiography of a Yogi by P.Y. should question everything as well.

There are direct lineages from Lahiri Mahasaya that did not come from the dividing line of Sri Yukteswar who did go against his Gurus wishes and form societies and orginizations around Kriya Yoga. The Kriya they teach is not the same as Sri Yukteswar derived lineages.

In fact the Kriya taught by SRF and Hari Harrinandas KYI both whom are of Sri Yukteswars lineage are very different. Yes I am aware of SRF suing KYI, Donald Walters and anyone who dares go against the world wide church of SRF. Or claim to be the sole holder of the Kriya knowledge.

I also know many of the senior Monks of SRF long time members split from SRF some years ago. Care to explain that.

Bottom line SRF. Is not THE AUTHORITY on Kriya Yoga. SRF is a great orginization serving humanity and does far more good than harm. There are some who find their destination with SRF. I think that is good and nice. I however am not one to be part of an orginization.

Yogiraj Lahiri Mahasaya forbid this I follow the Guru of my heart I have not met in the flesh but have been blessed to be visited by not once but twice in otherworldly circumsances that are not for casual conversation.

His words are my scripture his example my goal. I am very greatful to P.Y. For sharing his lifes story which led me home to Lahiri Mahasaya. I am grateful to his vehicle SRF for making this possible.

What I am not greatful for is groups changing Kriya. Some seem to think oh it is okay the core is still intact even if there are changes.

Pardon my Language but that is B.S. example: In my younger days I was a mechanic. I used air ratchets changed tires rebuilt engines, A/C etc… I gave the tools to a person who wanted to rotate his tires.

He used my air ratchet my torq sticks, my sockets rotated the tires yet took it upon himself to put the lugs on his way.

His way was backwards. He nearly lost a wheel going down the highway. He put the lugs on flat side facing the rim, not the acorn shaped side.

They loosened at high speed, even though the tools and the method were close. 1 little change nearly took his life. This person is my younger brother.

Food for thought. Kriya works with life force. Not simple lug nuts.

What SRF teaches is both safe and powerful at the same time. It is however not the Kriya of Lahiri Mahasaya.


#57

To PYislove you write " Yogananda was initially teaching khechari to some advanced enough then." How do you know this? Were you there? You write he tested the methods and left us with what worked with the least complication. How do you know he tested the methods?
Did you witness this and did he tell you this will work and this aspect is not needed?
From my experience kechari is needed and a very important aspect in the practice. Why not test this out for yourself? Practice your kriya without kechari and then practice with this mudra and see for yourself.
Many years ago I also started my spiritual journey through SRF. It is a good place to start. However, as one advances one may find that there is something missing or the methods for progressing further just aren’t there.
I agree with Seeking. The kriya yoga of SRF is not the Kriya of Yogiraj Shyama Charan Lahiri Mahasaya.


#58

Seeking said;
"In fact the Kriya taught by SRF and Hari Harrinandas KYI both whom are of Sri Yukteswars lineage are very different. Yes I am aware of SRF suing KYI, Donald Walters and anyone who dares go against the world wide church of SRF. Or claim to be the sole holder of the Kriya knowledge. "
Reply; Self Realization Fellowship initiated legal action against kriyananda and HariH because of extensive long term criminal activities on the part of those ambitious leaders. The records of much of this are available publicly if one is interested.
Re;Yoga Journal 1991-1992, and court docs on the net.

Organizations; this is a very complex and involved subject. [small and large groups and lineages are organizations whether formal or not. The importance of human community function is a serious for out balanced and complete development even in spite of the constant struggle needed against the evil of bad politics.]
I was always against orgs since very young age, until I became aware of Yogananda’s wisdom. It took me many years to see the need for some need of community experience.
I would say that LM told many not to start orgs because the stage was being set via Paramahansa Yogananda to launch Kriya Yoga world wide beginning in the West.
When in the early stages of a new spiritual dispensation such as this, having competing organizations is a weakening and confusing factor and will attempt to work against the initial plan of LM/Babaji. I am not going to go into the spiritual-socio elements of the need for organizations. But even though Yogananda did not like them
it appears that once in America He realized that the project placed upon Him by his upline gurus could not be properly accomplished without some degree of organizations. The bad aspects [in part] of the negative side of orgs is largely due to certain human elements, mostly of which Yoganandaji understood and took steps to eliminate to some degree. It mainly depends upon the spiritual stature of good leadership to work the for good of all persons. Monastics who left SRF during a short time in its history had their own ideas, ambitions, and misgivings about their own path in life, as well as insufficient understandings of what SRF leadership was doing. Because SRF does not vilify its opponents, till one has more knowledge of what is going on there is the temptation to blame the victim[srf]. I respect the fact that SRF had the courage and patience to protect the Master’s great legacy and rights.
But in spite of the good efforts on PY’s part, every great spiritual movement has always had a person[s] that quickly arise who attempt to hijack said movements. They are so sure that they can do the whole thing better and some have large egos. It is of course
human nature to launch endless variations of any good idea. Ambitious persons are sometimes just working out their psychological problems on society.
Devotees beware, a live guru may not be a spiritually living guru.
Even Adi Shankara reorganized the whole of Hinduism, and saved it from the dark invasions which came from the west. there are times when this is necessary.

Kechari; I know that PY was initially teaching kechari because a number of his early
monastics have written about this fact.
The people in the western world are still mostly not ready to do lotus posture as in the west knees and hips are not as flexible as in the orient. So Hari H claim that all of a sudden westerners are now ready for it is nonsense. Also note; exercises such as bouncing half lotus sometimes does damage to knee ligaments [torn meniscus syndrome] when trying to limber up joints to do full lotus properly. It is simpler to sit in a chair.
Far more important than the physical position, is the attitude and position of the mind and heart.

What PY did in testing various methods, is recorded in His extensive history and teachings. He tested and mastered everything - that is what made Him so suitable to launch Kriya world wide. Even though He never really liked organizations, He saw this as the was to most effectively share India’s light with the world. Even those who have no intention of staring orgs will find that their devotees will do so anyhow.
This is the way He dealt with all things, that is why He claimed the teaching was
scientific. He could also see exactly what the energy in bodies was doing which took away any guess work. I don’t plan to write a thesis on this just yet.

The claim Yogananda made about the kriya He taught, is that it is exactly as Yukteswar taught it to Him. I wasn’t there either! If you see the results from Yukteswar on down that part of lineage, there should be no doubt about its efficacy. It is still producing great Realized souls in this life. The results are there.
Those who came after Yogananda and remained with SRF never changed any of His teachings
as far as I can tell. To understand this whole matter one must be aware of the changes that Yogananda made to his approaches organizationally as time went by. In the early days he was as loose and liberal as any other yogi, later he approached some aspects differently.
As far as Kechari goes. I agree that it is a powerful method. There is more than one way to do any one thing. Bakti, for example, will do just as much and is most indispensable as a source of spiritual power.
Kechari was not denied or outlawed by PY, He sometimes left such difficult moves to the initiative of the devotees when those person were ready, as also with sitting in lotus. If one can do it fully and comfortably, go for it.

SRF is exclusively the real authority for Paramahansa Yogananda’s blessing and teachings, He Himself makes this claim many many places in his works. He said that is the way it works in spiritual law.
What all other orgs/groups do I am not fully aware of, they all have their own teachers and approaches and many do their own good works.
Your example about bad mechanics does not apply here, as Yogananda’s doing has had very
outstanding results. It is producing great souls.

[B][I]We have all experienced and seen different things, we are all at different places on this divine path, let this fact suffice to offer the respect for our differences of opinions.[/I][/B]


#59

The only way to find out what a watermelon tastes like is to taste it.

It doesn’t matter how much the merchant hypes it up, or what other people say.

At the end of the day, only by tasting it will you know its quality.

Then you can choose if you like it or not. And it doesn’t matter one way or the other. Arguing about things like this, is like arguing about who is the best musician. Some may sell more records. Some may be more skillful. What matters is none of this, but our personal experience with the music.

Many paths are promoted by certain individuals and attacked by others, and no matter that fact, they work for some, and not for others.

As with anything in life, I would think that trusting our direct experience will be the determining factor.

Kriya has worked very well in my experience, and I am aware of other paths, and the fantastic claims and criticisms of Kriya. At the end of the day, what matters is that by practicing what I have been taught, I am pleased.

When our practice is our Love and an expression of Self, all the politics fall away, and life is there to welcome us home.


#60

Who teaches bouncing Lotus posture? Must by that Kriyananda guy because it is not KYI.

KYI monks did not give me the impression that they have any negative view of SRF in fact they tend to give the impression that they acknowledge SRF but they are not interested in anything having to do with them. This is the proper attitude.

From what I have discovered of Donald Walters going by the name kriyananda I will just say oh my is he for real ? and leave it at that. Placing Hari Harinanda in his company as an example is a mistake.

My example was not only about incorrect mechanics but incorrect teaching on my part. I failed to explain to my brother how to do something correctly I assumed his Kechari would come to him while using the air gun. So yes it does apply. I know you disagree that is ok.

I do not believe P.Y. Left out Kechari, I believe those who came later did. Hence their poor teaching. Not P.Y.'s

Sitting in a chair will work but being able to sit even in Bermese posture if half or full lotus is impossible is better. More people are able to sit on the floor than not they just lack a proper teacher and equipment. FYI a Zabuton ZEN floor mat and Zafu are a great help doing this Dharma Crafts on line sell very good quality ones for anyone interested.

So we actually agree on quite a bit but not everything. I agree and have no doubt P.Y. Did come to America and his good work is still helping others. I agree he has brought many souls to God seeking and as a spiritual engine of spreading yoga the world over he is unparalleled in all of history.

You are devoted to SRF that much is clear. I am not attempting to convince you of anything, that would be quite impossible. I am happy you are at home there.

I am however discussing this so others may know that SRF is a safe place and a good place to learn from as is KYI. Both teach very good and powerful methods of Kriya but neither are teaching it as Lahiri Mahasaya did from everything I have discovered in my seeking from many sources including Kriyabans from other Lahiri Mahasaya descended lineages. What they both teach is institutionalized Kriya. What the governing body decides the instructors teach.

FYI I am not down on Sri Yukteswar at all I simply point out correctly he is the dividing line as comes from Lahiri Mahasaya. He is / was P.Y’s Guru but not P.Y.'s only teacher. Did they have a directive to fulfill? The world will never know, have they accomplished what they set out to spreading Kriya Yoga the world over? Yes they did. Those who came after them do not have my trust though as they have changed how Kriya is taught and by doing so are undermining the efforts of the masters. This is my conclusion I am not seeking debate on this point as we will not agree let others read what we write and decide for themselves even as we have.

Those are the results I see from this lineage what are you referring to? Please do enumerate the Great souls you claim SRF has produced and what are these works you site as proof?

Everyone has to do their own seeking, their own work and see what fits for them. SRF is a good safe place to learn from KYI is a good safe place to learn from. Books alone are not enough these things must be learned from someone who has gone before you. Someone who is qualified.

There are other teachers who are descended from Lahiri Mahasaya that are not of SriYukteswars family tree. They do not tend to form orginizations. Churchs and institutes.

They do stick to the original way of teaching Kriya and that does matter.Here is the rub they know it they teach it but do they teach correctly? are they authorized to teach in the parama tradition? Are they hucksters? Unfortunatly much of what I have discovered point to some pretty aweful excuses for humans.

PYislove what is the criteria for a spiritualy living Guru? so others may know? I would like to know as well.

Is it the breathless state? Is it te display of unusual powers? Just what is the criteria one should look for?

So in closing I am of the opinion that SRF & KYI Are equally good, equally safe places to learn institutionalized none original Kriya Yoga as Lahiri Mahasaya taught it. This is an important point. Be safe in ones seeking. When the student is ready the Guru appears. Until then either one of these sources will bring a person much good in their practice.