[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67444]Thanks again everyone for your replies.
My conclusion from your posts and from my own research I did on the subject in the meantime:
I will definitely stay away from Kriya Yoga and from all forms of yoga and meditation.
Maybe one day you will see why and then you will share my view, too.
In any case I wish and hope the very best for you all. :)[/QUOTE]
Thank you for the wishes, wish you all the best too.
I’m afraid you came to this forum already with a conclusion.
Anyway, you don’t need Yoga to be happy.
Good luck!
[QUOTE=yogam;67441]But does not science work the same way as yoga? If a theory is not able to be proved in a scientific subject, then it is only a theory. On the contrary yoga is all about practice. You can experience everything written about yoga yourself. So why shouldn’t it be scientific?
Aren’t psychology, psychiatry, theology, art etc. also sciences?[/QUOTE]
I don’t think yoga works like science. Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
In “Elements of scientific method” is a scheme characterizing scientific approach:
"A linearized, pragmatic scheme of the four points above is sometimes offered as a guideline for proceeding:[49]
Art for sure doesn’t follow this path. I’m thinking about yoga… There are some elements but I think yoga practice is not scientific activity. Rather sort of engineering - there is a goal to which we aim according to specific method (which we believe is based on scientific foundation).
[QUOTE=panoramix;67446]
I’m afraid you came to this forum already with a conclusion.
[/QUOTE]
No, don’t be afraid 
I am not here to be right but to be correct.
I came here with my justified and sincere questions and expected that they would be answered in an honest and correct way.
I am here because I read a lot from P. Yogananda and then on the SRF site when I found it. And after that I was left with a lot of questions.
However, rather than answering these questions most of the replies I read here are full of logical fallacies (covert, subtle but very effective methods of deception)
So in lack of answers I can only make my own conclusion from what I observed here. And my conclusion to stay away from yoga has more reasons - one of them is the fallacious philosophy behind it.
I would be able to show you in detail what I mean, but anyone with intellectual honesty and an honest intelligence can figure out the same for himself. It is meaningless and useless to “discuss” a philosophy which stands on an arbitrary premise and refers to its own premise as an “argument” or “conclusion”. It is meaningless to discuss anything in a domain that operates with a “logic” that follows no logical rules, and where all arguments stand equally “valid”, including the invalid ones (logical fallacies) and in which anyone can freely give new definitions to any term, or introduce new terms and give them the definitions of other ones.
If you don’t pursue these deceptive methods on purpose (which I assume) and you simply don’t know about logical fallacies, you may want to look into the subject.
On a side note: if the unconscious or conscious reason behind these fallacies and evasiveness is fear from the truth, I think no one should feel obliged to stay unconditionally loyal to a religion or philosophy even after he realises that it’s false.
Instead of trying to avoid realising its falsehood, one may just get out of that philosophy and out of yoga.
If you don’t believe in God, just leave the deception and your altered state of consciousness just for the sake to preserve your sanity.
If you believe in God, then believe that God is both Love and Truth, who never deceived you with an illusory world, who has created a real world for you and everyone. If you want to honour such truthful God, then you can do your good works out there in the real world to make it a better place.
Either you believe in God or not, the real world out there needs you and your goodness out there - not only within.
If you are truthful to the truth and you mean well, then God will honour your integrity, courage and loyalty to the Truth, and will lead out of this deception. If you believe in a truthful and loving God, trust such God and distrust those who claim that this world is a deception. You can always turn around, - God would forgive you always and will be by your side when you will need him.
And, no, I didn’t conclude in advance to write this. It just happened, hopefully for the benefits for some who needed to read this.
Sorry but you’re a living proof of many things you have thrown in my face. And your last post was considerably disrespectful.
Please read this thread:
http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f16/yoga-and-science-6537-2.html
“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science.” -Albert Einstein
“There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true.” - Niels B?hr
[QUOTE=panoramix;67474]Sorry but you’re a living proof of many things you have thrown in my face. And your last post was considerably disrespectful.
[/QUOTE]
Panoramix:
Thanks for your reply. If that’s how you interpreted my post, then I failed to express my thoughts properly, for which I apologise. I didn’t mean to hurt your or anyone’s feelings.
If you found it disrespectful that I mentioned about the fallacies I encountered on this thread, I should add: I just meant to explain why I wish not to discuss this any longer. Most of the replies - with some exceptions for which I am thankful - are objectively defined as fallacies, mainly some subtypes of red herring.
But please don’t take me wrong. All of you guys have made some great points, which I’ll take home, but it was only Pawel who finally replied with a specific answer to one of my questions and without a fallacy.
The answer you offered to my questions is your philosophy, which is one without an Archimedes point. In such philosophy, where there is no objective, shared premise, and under the “rules of no rules”, where consistency is not necessary and contradictions and fallacies are allowed, all statements rest on an arbitrary, randomly chosen premise. If anyone may pick and replace his premise with another at any time and anyone can appoint his own premise and “dictate the truth” accordingly, there is no point in any discussion, either in the topic of my questions or in any other subject.
Regarding the logical fallacies I referred to: one of the several examples I can mention your post in which “you’re afraid that I came here with a conclusion.” Your post is objectively defined as assuming behaviour and it also qualifies as the logical fallacy called “poisoning the well” (=when something is presented about a person with the effect of discrediting everything that the target person says)
The same is true about your assumption regarding my last post. Contrary to what you think, my post was not disrespectful. No, I wrote everything here with the deepest respect for you and everyone on this thread - and with compassion, too.
Pawel and Yogam:
Thanks everyone for your replies, and again, my best wishes for you and everyone
[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67490]Pawel and Yogam:
Thanks everyone for your replies, and again, my best wishes for you and everyone :)[/QUOTE]
All the best to you too! Good luck with your search and endeavors!
[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67490]If you found it disrespectful that I mentioned about the fallacies I encountered on this thread, I should add: I just meant to explain why I wish not to discuss this any longer. Most of the replies - with some exceptions for which I am thankful - are objectively defined as fallacies, mainly some subtypes of red herring.
But please don’t take me wrong. All of you guys have made some great points, which I’ll take home, but it was only Pawel who finally replied with a specific answer to one of my questions and without a fallacy.[/QUOTE]
You are unable to defend your point, that’s all. You every time hide behind the term “fallacy”.
Sorry but you’re a robed skeleton… 
Wish you well, take care.
Bye
Interesting thread and interesting questions. I would like to answer your questions, but I don’t have time at the moment. I will respond later.
I don’t think the questioner wants any answers other than what he supposes. That is fine. I had no idea if yoga “worked” I saw its proof in my experience with the practice of it. At some point i just had to try it for myself, all the inquiries jn the world wont show what actual experience did.
I found this forum while I was trying to find answers to certain questions that are related to yoga and Kriya Yoga specifically.
I am a probably good candidate to answer your questions, as I have been initiated in the tradition of Kriya Yoga and a tradition related to it, Tantra yoga.
The above claims - as well as many others listed on the SRF website - are very strong claims and many of them are contradictory to one another. These claims also imply their scientific validity as they are called “definite scientific techniques” and the “scientific methods of yoga” in attaining direct personal experience and unity with God.
These claims are not unique to SRF, in fact pretty much any organization that teaches Yoga claims that their techniques are scientific. The claims that Yoga is scientific is also made by the tradition itself from which it originates and by several modern scientists. Why? Where there is smoke, there is fire. Yoga is called scientific because the techniques when practiced as prescribed tend to produce similar effects on the body and mind. This is why they have become the subject of study of many scientific studies and even recommended by prominent scientists and doctors.
Another reason Yoga is called scientific is because like any science it has an epistemology and a systematic theory underpinning it i.e., it is based on a system of thought based on actual evidence. This sets it apart from a faith, because faith is based on belief alone. I will not go into details about the epistemology and scientific theory of Yoga, because I don’t have time.
- How can Yogananda and his followers scientifically prove that someone’s personal experience and the “truths” derived from such experience - either Yogananda’s or that of others - are with objective and scientific validity?
It is proven by gathering data and comparing the data to make generalizations. It is very much like any science, except while most sciences gather external data, in Yoga internal data is gathered. The data Yoga is concerned with is the structures of the mind which are objective, and not the content of the mind, which is subjective. In Yoga psychology for example they have been able to analyze the structures of the mind into a lot of detail, there are about 40 terms in Sanskrit referring to psychological entities e.g., jnanaindryias; the sensory organs from which we receive data from the external world; manas, the aspect of our mind that organizes information from the sensory data received; buddhi, the executive function of our mind that makes decisions based on the data; ahamkara, the ego function which personalizes the data received(i.e filtering it according to personal values, beliefs etc, and chitta, the storehouse of memories of sensory impressions. These are some of the main mental structures recognized in Yoga psychology.
Of course if you analyzed your own mental structures you will find these structures do in fact exist. There are certain predictions I can make about what will take place in your mental world based on the knowledge we have of how these structures work. For example, I predict that if you sit down to meditate by focusing your mind on a focal point. The first thing you will experience is your mind wandering from your focal point into other thought activity. Initially, this thought activity will be high. You will find it close to impossible to hold your mind onto your focal point. If you are able to successfully maintain your focal point for a prolonged duration, I can predict your mental activity will begin to lessen and you will experience the emotional state of calmness. If you can maintain it further, I predict you will experience an altered state of consciousness and altered perceptions of time and space.
The Yoga I have described above is known as the Yoga of mind-control(Raja Yoga) There is another Yoga called the Yoga of body-control(Hatha Yoga) and Kriya Yoga is a type of body-control yoga. Just as we can make generalizations about what will happen in your mental world in meditation, we can make generalizations about what will happen in your mental world when certain aspects of your body are manipulated. For example, if you alter your breathing cycles and reduce your breath from 20 per min to 7 per min, I can predict that your thought activity will lessen and you will experience greater calmness. There are also physiological predictions we can make about what will happen to various physiological indices in your body(e.g., brainwave emission, heart rate, hormone levels) There is ample data if you care to look in peer reviewed scientific journals on this subject.
Kriya Yoga is slightly different to Hatha Yoga, because while Hatha Yoga’s main emphasis is on asanas, mudras, bandhas, shatkarmas to awaken the Kundalini energy in the cerberal-spinal column by purifying the psychic nerves, Kriya Yoga’s focus is on pranayamas to do the same. Kriya Yoga claims itself to be the fastest path to self-realization/god-realization/enlightenment, because it works directly on the energy body(pranamaya kosha) with advanced Yoga practices of breath work and meditation. In contrast, Hatha Yoga works directly on the physical body(annamaya kosha) with lower practices of asanas.
- What kind of scientific proof they can provide that the personal experiences through these yoga and meditation practices are from God, rather than from hallucinations, self-hypnosis, or some other not-shared mental states? (The perceived “beauty” of these personal images, “bliss” or other effects perceived as positive do not necessarily imply the presence of God.)
They cannot provide proof of these claims, because these claims are subjective interpretations of objective mental states. Somebody who is religious minded will interpret these experiences in religious terms like god and heaven etc, whereas the non-religious minded will interpret them in more secular terms like describing feelings(bliss) They are both experiencing the same thing, but they are using different languages to describe it.
- If we assume the existence of God and the spiritual realm, how can they scientifically prove that the experience attained through these methods is from and with God rather than from some other, possibly misleading and malevolent spirits of the spiritual realm?
It is the quality of experience one is having that they can be sure that no evil entity is producing it for them. That bliss that they experience in meditation makes them compassionate, wise and loving people. They return from these states as reborn people. They no longer identify with their former selves. It is like the caterpillar returning as the butterfly. If an evil entity has produced this beauty, virtue and goodness we see in them, then it cannot be evil, otherwise we have a contradiction in terms. If this is evil, then I prefer to be evil 
- Another question beyond the above: In addition to those of Kriya Yoga, do the practitioners and teachers of other forms/types of yoga and/or meditation claim as well that their methods eventually lead to a personal unity with God or this is a special case?
Almost all forms of Yoga make the same claim. Yoga is after all an ancient Hindu science for realizing unity with Brahman(Hindu concept of god) Hence why most Yoga organizations who are loyal to their traditional roots make similar claims.
someone said; about a scientific method;
Art for sure doesn’t follow this path. I’m thinking about yoga…??
I would say that since Yoga does produce quantifiable results in
(a) ones health and well being[positive life attitudes]
(b) ones brain changes and physiological changes
© ones intellectual and intuitive abilities
(d) ones Psychological freedom from dogmatism and subjectivism.
(e) ones state of happiness
(f) ones dealings with others
and other factors …
some of which can also be measured by technical instruments,
some which cannot.
One can say that psychiatry is or is not a science.
Even those areas such as geology and archaeology etc
which are considered to be sciences are all depending on
data derived from sensory inputs can also be said to be
unreliable and called therefore unscientific.
It is evident that the original poster on this thread had
a particular mindset on this topic before posting the questions.
However, that poster may really be looking for a type of
answer that cannot be given on any subject let alone Yoga.
I would say that Yoga, with its systematic and fully
annotated categories and consistent exceptional results
in enhancing and enriching human evolution, its ability
to give one greater mental and social freedom from
dogmatisms etc, can to quote Carl Jung " is capable of
Undreamed of possibilities."
If you want to be free of prejudicial and dogmatic
attitudes, of pessimism and narrowness of scope,
free of pathological psychological dispositions,
yoga is for you!
The unique thing about kriya yoga is that it[like Raja Yoga]
encompasses all the major possible approaches to
self transfomative techniques with amazing results.
Just last week CNN poll showed that over 20 million Americans
now practice some form of Yoga, a change of 500%
in the last ten years. World wide yoga is literally sweeping
the world with good reason. It is giving positive and
holistic life transforming results to million of persons.
If the original poster wants nothing to do with yoga,
I’m sure in this interesting world he/she may
eventually find some other good path to their liking.
No matter what, personal effort and commitment will
be needed, not just endless theorizing.
The results are in -millions are finding life much
better with yoga!
I would like to give my opinion as a Kriyban of both SRF & Kriya Yoga International.
If you have read Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda and it has either struck a cord in you or made you think oh wow someone is writing about things I already know and you feel attracted towards Kriya Yoga then by all means take the next step.
I for one immediatly felt like I was coming home.
SRF Lessons are a great way for a person beginning in yoga to learn some fundamentals and not get into phantasy yoga or new age claptrappery. Later you can apply for Kriya Yoga lessons and take initiation.
SRF is a safe place to start for anyone, their belief system is too say the least a bit odd. The good news is the yoga methods do work belief not required.
P.Y. is no longer living so do realize the student have been in charge for many decades now and it is a Church as well.
SRF can teach you the beginning stages then later a stripped down simplified version of Kriya Pranayama that is very effective.
KYI is also an orginization and is of the same lineage of teachers to include P.Y. Unlike SRF you start off head first after Kriya initiation and it may be a bit much for a beginner.
Do the methods work? In a word YES. You have many questions, that will require you to activly practice Kriya Yoga to discover if the hype is true, I can not answer your questions nor can anyone else. The answers are found by doing the best thing I can point out is both orginizations are safe to deal with. I know this from experience of over 20 years not guess work.
[B][I]About Paramahansa Yogananda’s and His Self-Realization Fellowship/YSS![/I][/B]
SRF is not only a good place to start for Kriya Yoga, but it will take you
as far and as quickly[depending on ones efforts] as any other variation
of the Kriya path.
Since Yogananda’s demise, The SRF has Not been run by students but by
great Yogi-saints of high divine realization. Re; Daya Mata, Rajarsi, Mrinalini Mata
and others on the SRF board. Of course there are also many other monastics [swamis]
doing work as well throughout the world.
No one has yet shown clearly where SRF kriya has been watered down, at any
rate look at the people it is producing.
Before Yogananda left His form, he made sure he left the method as a very
workable system. I have met some of these great souls in person, and
experienced their darshan and wisdom.
When one reaches the Paramahansa stage, even after the death of the body
that person is a “living master.” Immediately after He left the body behind
He has worked in my life the the lives of many others.
He has kept His promise "when I am gone do not think that I am no longer
with you, I will be as much with sincere devotees as I am now…"
This is where many devotees get confused, a teacher may not be advanced
enough to be a true Guru, and may not even be a “spiritually living Guru” at
all. It is not easy to know who is who for the average devotee.
It may be nice to think you have live[ not spiritually living] teacher,
but keep in mind that teacher may not be spiritually realized[living]
and may be gone tomorrow also. What then?
[QUOTE=PYislove;77230][B][I]About Paramahansa Yogananda’s and His Self-Realization Fellowship/YSS![/I][/B]
SRF is not only a good place to start for Kriya Yoga, but it will take you
as far and as quickly[depending on ones efforts] as any other variation
of the Kriya path.
Since Yogananda’s demise, The SRF has Not been run by students but by
great Yogi-saints of high divine realization. Re; Daya Mata, Rajarsi, Mrinalini Mata
and others on the SRF board. Of course there are also many other monastics [swamis]
doing work as well throughout the world.
No one has yet shown clearly where SRF kriya has been watered down, at any
rate look at the people it is producing.
Before Yogananda left His form, he made sure he left the method as a very
workable system. I have met some of these great souls in person, and
experienced their darshan and wisdom.
When one reaches the Paramahansa stage, even after the death of the body
that person is a “living master.” Immediately after He left the body behind
He has worked in my life the the lives of many others.
He has kept His promise "when I am gone do not think that I am no longer
with you, I will be as much with sincere devotees as I am now…"
This is where many devotees get confused, a teacher may not be advanced
enough to be a true Guru, and may not even be a “spiritually living Guru” at
all. It is not easy to know who is who for the average devotee.
It may be nice to think you have live[ not spiritually living] teacher,
but keep in mind that teacher may not be spiritually realized[living]
and may be gone tomorrow also. What then?[/QUOTE]
There are accounts of others that show P.Y. Did modify the Kriya of Lahiri Mahasaya i will put some links up for everyone. And address some more of this busy rightnow.
With respect
I have read some of those sites met one of those persons
, they may show where Yogananda rearranged the approach to the kriya
steps, but the fact remains that Yogananda’s
methodology is complete and is still producing desired results.
His arrangement of teaching kriya is a good one.
In Self-Realization Fellowship the full power of
Shaktipat and Parampara are still in effect, nothing
is lost.
Remember - some of those teachers also have their own
agendas and speak from their own interests.
How does all this work?
[B]The Sumarization!@[/B]
SRF [promise] says:
the way to “find God” & attain “unity with God” & find “God’s eternal bliss” through a direct personal experience,
I started to have doubts becaue these are strong claims.
and many of them are contradictory to one another.
[B]OH . . . contradictory? Personally . . . I think not.[/B]
How can Yogananda and his followers scientifically prove that someone’s personal experience and the “truths” derived from such experience - either Yogananda’s or that of others - are with objective and scientific validity?
[B]Direct personal experience ala yoga sutras. You experience. and flowing from that there is - therefore “you know” You apply the methods, the result comes. Seek and ye shall find. This is the promise of the Lord.[/B]
[B]“tenable”. I.e. The proof is in the pudding. [/B]
Do they have access to all other personal experiences and individual paths?
[B]The end is one. Shyama & Babaji have codified, boiled it down to the essentials.
The results are experential. You experience them. As patanjali says "the modes of correct knowledge are “direct percption”
DONT BE SCARED.
[/B]
[QUOTE=PYislove;77232]With respect
I have read some of those sites met one of those persons
, they may show where Yogananda rearranged the approach to the kriya
steps, but the fact remains that Yogananda’s
methodology is complete and is still producing desired results.
His arrangement of teaching kriya is a good one.
In Self-Realization Fellowship the full power of
Shaktipat and Parampara are still in effect, nothing
is lost.
Remember - some of those teachers also have their own
agendas and speak from their own interests.
How does all this work?[/QUOTE]
This is the start of a good discussion which I believe could be helpful to people. I will be starting a new thread to avoid hijacking this one. Come on over if you feel like it.
By the way are you the same person that reviews on Amazon concerning P.Y.'s Autobiography of a yogi?