Questions re Kriya Yoga, Yogananda and Self-Realization Fellowship (SRF)

Lavendar · March 10, 2017, 8:50pm

[QUOTE=PYislove;77232]With respect
I have read some of those sites met one of those persons
, they may show where Yogananda rearranged the approach to the kriya
steps, but

[/QUOTE] the fact remains that Yogananda’s
methodology is complete and is still producing desired results.[QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]His arrangement of teaching kriya is a good one.
In Self-Realization Fellowship the full power of
Shaktipat and Parampara are still in effect, nothing
is lost.
Remember - some of those teachers also have their own
agendas and speak from their own interests.
How does all this work?

How do you know this is fact? What has lead you to say it is a complete method? Key points of the kriya yoga techniques have been changed and some left out completely. SRF does not teach khechari. Remember, when Yogananda arrived in America back in the 1920’s it was a different era. These people were unfamiliar with yoga and its practices. I think most of the folks were unable to practice some of the techniques or in the case of Khechari it may have “alarmed” many. Just my opinion as to why some aspects have been left out.[QUOTE][/QUOTE]

This is your opinion that the arrangement of teaching is a good one. Someone else may have a different opinion. Dear SRF devotee, you should differentiate between fact and your personal opinion. Do not misunderstand this as attacking SRF, or Yogananda for with his arrival to America the awareness of this technique termed Kriya Yoga was spread.

PYislove · March 10, 2017, 8:50pm

Yogananda was initially teaching Kechari to some advanced enough then.
If he dropped it, it was probably not only its difficulty, but was it really
necessary. He found it wasn’t.
how complete was it? People have been on research in India and
found no significance to claims of "better kriya methods."
It would all be so hard to prove at any rate.
Just like sitting in the lotus posture, as great as it is, it is totally unnecessary.
He did not guess at these variations, he tested them and left us
with what worked with the least complication.
If every ritual of kriya was absolutely necessary, even LH would not have
simplified it so much.
Most important of all, Yogananda and others reached greatest heights with
the system as he left it,
If it works, what else is really needed?
The insistence that so many other things might be
needed may be to fulfill the personal agendas of other
teachers, more that the actual necessity of those things.
“They” have to claim they have something no one else
has to attract devotees. But the real test is - are their
claims producing something greater than Yogananda’s legacy?
This is all very debatable!

Seeking · March 10, 2017, 8:50pm

[QUOTE=PYislove;77266]Yogananda was initially teaching Kechari to some advanced enough then.
If he dropped it, it was probably not only its difficulty, but was it really
necessary. He found it wasn’t.
how complete was it? People have been on research in India and
found no significance to claims of "better kriya methods."
It would all be so hard to prove at any rate.
Just like sitting in the lotus posture, as great as it is, it is totally unnecessary.
He did not guess at these variations, he tested them and left us
with what worked with the least complication.
If every ritual of kriya was absolutely necessary, even LH would not have
simplified it so much.
Most important of all, Yogananda and others reached greatest heights with
the system as he left it,
If it works, what else is really needed?
The insistence that so many other things might be
needed may be to fulfill the personal agendas of other
teachers, more that the actual necessity of those things.
“They” have to claim they have something no one else
has to attract devotees. But the real test is - are their
claims producing something greater than Yogananda’s legacy?
This is all very debatable![/QUOTE]

All you are doing is spreading the Church of SRF point of view and it is not correct. Kechari is most certainly needed from personal experience not the company line. I can report it closes the circuit and the effect is profound.

I deeply respect P.Y. More than you will ever know. SRF is not P.Y. Unless you are very old you are relying on those that came after the Masters departure.

I can appreciate the profound change SRF has brought in your life. Truly I can Paramahansa Yoganandas Lessons have been with me for well over 25 years.

Lets bottom line this shall we?

I ask you to stop writing about agendas ok? Everybody & Every orginization to include SRF has one. That does not by itself make it bad as your writing insinuates.
Babaji and Lahiri Mahasaya expressly forbid the forming of groups and orginizations around Kriya.
Lahiri Mahasaya is the ultimate authority on Kriya second only to Babaji. L.M. Codified Kriya for the householder.
P.Y. Simplified as he saw fit, good I will not dare argue what he decided I have no idea what his reasons were. My question is did he? Or was it someone who came after him? Did he sit with you and say dear one I changed L.H.'s kriya because it was not as streamlined as it could be? No he did not now did he? So how do you know anyhing more than those whom you respect have taught you? Answer you do not.
I asked the monks of KYI in person I said Swamaji why is your version of Kriya so different from what I was taught by SRF? Why does it match how his book described the practice so much more than what SRF teaches? by the way he did know the SRF methods. He said you must understand Paramahansaji came to America in the 1920’s people then thought sitting on the floor was insane. So he changed things so his audience of the time could derive some good from Kriya practice. Sri Harinanda came to America in the 70’s he looked around and said the people are ready lets give it all to them.

This very discussion is exactly why forming groups around Kriya practice was forbidden. Furthermore the alterations in Yogirag Lahiri Mahasayas teaching of Kriya is another. I hold suspect every group teaching Kriya based on this injunction not to.

I furthermore state that anyone knowing the forming of groups around Kriya was forbidden even described as such in Autobiography of a Yogi by P.Y. should question everything as well.

There are direct lineages from Lahiri Mahasaya that did not come from the dividing line of Sri Yukteswar who did go against his Gurus wishes and form societies and orginizations around Kriya Yoga. The Kriya they teach is not the same as Sri Yukteswar derived lineages.

In fact the Kriya taught by SRF and Hari Harrinandas KYI both whom are of Sri Yukteswars lineage are very different. Yes I am aware of SRF suing KYI, Donald Walters and anyone who dares go against the world wide church of SRF. Or claim to be the sole holder of the Kriya knowledge.

I also know many of the senior Monks of SRF long time members split from SRF some years ago. Care to explain that.

Bottom line SRF. Is not THE AUTHORITY on Kriya Yoga. SRF is a great orginization serving humanity and does far more good than harm. There are some who find their destination with SRF. I think that is good and nice. I however am not one to be part of an orginization.

Yogiraj Lahiri Mahasaya forbid this I follow the Guru of my heart I have not met in the flesh but have been blessed to be visited by not once but twice in otherworldly circumsances that are not for casual conversation.

His words are my scripture his example my goal. I am very greatful to P.Y. For sharing his lifes story which led me home to Lahiri Mahasaya. I am grateful to his vehicle SRF for making this possible.

What I am not greatful for is groups changing Kriya. Some seem to think oh it is okay the core is still intact even if there are changes.

Pardon my Language but that is B.S. example: In my younger days I was a mechanic. I used air ratchets changed tires rebuilt engines, A/C etc… I gave the tools to a person who wanted to rotate his tires.

He used my air ratchet my torq sticks, my sockets rotated the tires yet took it upon himself to put the lugs on his way.

His way was backwards. He nearly lost a wheel going down the highway. He put the lugs on flat side facing the rim, not the acorn shaped side.

They loosened at high speed, even though the tools and the method were close. 1 little change nearly took his life. This person is my younger brother.

Food for thought. Kriya works with life force. Not simple lug nuts.

What SRF teaches is both safe and powerful at the same time. It is however not the Kriya of Lahiri Mahasaya.

Lavendar · March 10, 2017, 8:50pm

To PYislove you write " Yogananda was initially teaching khechari to some advanced enough then." How do you know this? Were you there? You write he tested the methods and left us with what worked with the least complication. How do you know he tested the methods?
Did you witness this and did he tell you this will work and this aspect is not needed?
From my experience kechari is needed and a very important aspect in the practice. Why not test this out for yourself? Practice your kriya without kechari and then practice with this mudra and see for yourself.
Many years ago I also started my spiritual journey through SRF. It is a good place to start. However, as one advances one may find that there is something missing or the methods for progressing further just aren’t there.
I agree with Seeking. The kriya yoga of SRF is not the Kriya of Yogiraj Shyama Charan Lahiri Mahasaya.

PYislove · March 10, 2017, 8:50pm

Seeking said;
"In fact the Kriya taught by SRF and Hari Harrinandas KYI both whom are of Sri Yukteswars lineage are very different. Yes I am aware of SRF suing KYI, Donald Walters and anyone who dares go against the world wide church of SRF. Or claim to be the sole holder of the Kriya knowledge. "
Reply; Self Realization Fellowship initiated legal action against kriyananda and HariH because of extensive long term criminal activities on the part of those ambitious leaders. The records of much of this are available publicly if one is interested.
Re;Yoga Journal 1991-1992, and court docs on the net.

Organizations; this is a very complex and involved subject. [small and large groups and lineages are organizations whether formal or not. The importance of human community function is a serious for out balanced and complete development even in spite of the constant struggle needed against the evil of bad politics.]
I was always against orgs since very young age, until I became aware of Yogananda’s wisdom. It took me many years to see the need for some need of community experience.
I would say that LM told many not to start orgs because the stage was being set via Paramahansa Yogananda to launch Kriya Yoga world wide beginning in the West.
When in the early stages of a new spiritual dispensation such as this, having competing organizations is a weakening and confusing factor and will attempt to work against the initial plan of LM/Babaji. I am not going to go into the spiritual-socio elements of the need for organizations. But even though Yogananda did not like them
it appears that once in America He realized that the project placed upon Him by his upline gurus could not be properly accomplished without some degree of organizations. The bad aspects [in part] of the negative side of orgs is largely due to certain human elements, mostly of which Yoganandaji understood and took steps to eliminate to some degree. It mainly depends upon the spiritual stature of good leadership to work the for good of all persons. Monastics who left SRF during a short time in its history had their own ideas, ambitions, and misgivings about their own path in life, as well as insufficient understandings of what SRF leadership was doing. Because SRF does not vilify its opponents, till one has more knowledge of what is going on there is the temptation to blame the victim[srf]. I respect the fact that SRF had the courage and patience to protect the Master’s great legacy and rights.
But in spite of the good efforts on PY’s part, every great spiritual movement has always had a person[s] that quickly arise who attempt to hijack said movements. They are so sure that they can do the whole thing better and some have large egos. It is of course
human nature to launch endless variations of any good idea. Ambitious persons are sometimes just working out their psychological problems on society.
Devotees beware, a live guru may not be a spiritually living guru.
Even Adi Shankara reorganized the whole of Hinduism, and saved it from the dark invasions which came from the west. there are times when this is necessary.

Kechari; I know that PY was initially teaching kechari because a number of his early
monastics have written about this fact.
The people in the western world are still mostly not ready to do lotus posture as in the west knees and hips are not as flexible as in the orient. So Hari H claim that all of a sudden westerners are now ready for it is nonsense. Also note; exercises such as bouncing half lotus sometimes does damage to knee ligaments [torn meniscus syndrome] when trying to limber up joints to do full lotus properly. It is simpler to sit in a chair.
Far more important than the physical position, is the attitude and position of the mind and heart.

What PY did in testing various methods, is recorded in His extensive history and teachings. He tested and mastered everything - that is what made Him so suitable to launch Kriya world wide. Even though He never really liked organizations, He saw this as the was to most effectively share India’s light with the world. Even those who have no intention of staring orgs will find that their devotees will do so anyhow.
This is the way He dealt with all things, that is why He claimed the teaching was
scientific. He could also see exactly what the energy in bodies was doing which took away any guess work. I don’t plan to write a thesis on this just yet.

The claim Yogananda made about the kriya He taught, is that it is exactly as Yukteswar taught it to Him. I wasn’t there either! If you see the results from Yukteswar on down that part of lineage, there should be no doubt about its efficacy. It is still producing great Realized souls in this life. The results are there.
Those who came after Yogananda and remained with SRF never changed any of His teachings
as far as I can tell. To understand this whole matter one must be aware of the changes that Yogananda made to his approaches organizationally as time went by. In the early days he was as loose and liberal as any other yogi, later he approached some aspects differently.
As far as Kechari goes. I agree that it is a powerful method. There is more than one way to do any one thing. Bakti, for example, will do just as much and is most indispensable as a source of spiritual power.
Kechari was not denied or outlawed by PY, He sometimes left such difficult moves to the initiative of the devotees when those person were ready, as also with sitting in lotus. If one can do it fully and comfortably, go for it.

SRF is exclusively the real authority for Paramahansa Yogananda’s blessing and teachings, He Himself makes this claim many many places in his works. He said that is the way it works in spiritual law.
What all other orgs/groups do I am not fully aware of, they all have their own teachers and approaches and many do their own good works.
Your example about bad mechanics does not apply here, as Yogananda’s doing has had very
outstanding results. It is producing great souls.

[B][I]We have all experienced and seen different things, we are all at different places on this divine path, let this fact suffice to offer the respect for our differences of opinions.[/I][/B]

Ryan_Kurczak · March 10, 2017, 8:50pm

The only way to find out what a watermelon tastes like is to taste it.

It doesn’t matter how much the merchant hypes it up, or what other people say.

At the end of the day, only by tasting it will you know its quality.

Then you can choose if you like it or not. And it doesn’t matter one way or the other. Arguing about things like this, is like arguing about who is the best musician. Some may sell more records. Some may be more skillful. What matters is none of this, but our personal experience with the music.

Many paths are promoted by certain individuals and attacked by others, and no matter that fact, they work for some, and not for others.

As with anything in life, I would think that trusting our direct experience will be the determining factor.

Kriya has worked very well in my experience, and I am aware of other paths, and the fantastic claims and criticisms of Kriya. At the end of the day, what matters is that by practicing what I have been taught, I am pleased.

When our practice is our Love and an expression of Self, all the politics fall away, and life is there to welcome us home.

Seeking · March 10, 2017, 8:50pm

Who teaches bouncing Lotus posture? Must by that Kriyananda guy because it is not KYI.

KYI monks did not give me the impression that they have any negative view of SRF in fact they tend to give the impression that they acknowledge SRF but they are not interested in anything having to do with them. This is the proper attitude.

From what I have discovered of Donald Walters going by the name kriyananda I will just say oh my is he for real ? and leave it at that. Placing Hari Harinanda in his company as an example is a mistake.

My example was not only about incorrect mechanics but incorrect teaching on my part. I failed to explain to my brother how to do something correctly I assumed his Kechari would come to him while using the air gun. So yes it does apply. I know you disagree that is ok.

I do not believe P.Y. Left out Kechari, I believe those who came later did. Hence their poor teaching. Not P.Y.'s

Sitting in a chair will work but being able to sit even in Bermese posture if half or full lotus is impossible is better. More people are able to sit on the floor than not they just lack a proper teacher and equipment. FYI a Zabuton ZEN floor mat and Zafu are a great help doing this Dharma Crafts on line sell very good quality ones for anyone interested.

So we actually agree on quite a bit but not everything. I agree and have no doubt P.Y. Did come to America and his good work is still helping others. I agree he has brought many souls to God seeking and as a spiritual engine of spreading yoga the world over he is unparalleled in all of history.

You are devoted to SRF that much is clear. I am not attempting to convince you of anything, that would be quite impossible. I am happy you are at home there.

I am however discussing this so others may know that SRF is a safe place and a good place to learn from as is KYI. Both teach very good and powerful methods of Kriya but neither are teaching it as Lahiri Mahasaya did from everything I have discovered in my seeking from many sources including Kriyabans from other Lahiri Mahasaya descended lineages. What they both teach is institutionalized Kriya. What the governing body decides the instructors teach.

FYI I am not down on Sri Yukteswar at all I simply point out correctly he is the dividing line as comes from Lahiri Mahasaya. He is / was P.Y’s Guru but not P.Y.'s only teacher. Did they have a directive to fulfill? The world will never know, have they accomplished what they set out to spreading Kriya Yoga the world over? Yes they did. Those who came after them do not have my trust though as they have changed how Kriya is taught and by doing so are undermining the efforts of the masters. This is my conclusion I am not seeking debate on this point as we will not agree let others read what we write and decide for themselves even as we have.

Those are the results I see from this lineage what are you referring to? Please do enumerate the Great souls you claim SRF has produced and what are these works you site as proof?

Everyone has to do their own seeking, their own work and see what fits for them. SRF is a good safe place to learn from KYI is a good safe place to learn from. Books alone are not enough these things must be learned from someone who has gone before you. Someone who is qualified.

There are other teachers who are descended from Lahiri Mahasaya that are not of SriYukteswars family tree. They do not tend to form orginizations. Churchs and institutes.

They do stick to the original way of teaching Kriya and that does matter.Here is the rub they know it they teach it but do they teach correctly? are they authorized to teach in the parama tradition? Are they hucksters? Unfortunatly much of what I have discovered point to some pretty aweful excuses for humans.

PYislove what is the criteria for a spiritualy living Guru? so others may know? I would like to know as well.

Is it the breathless state? Is it te display of unusual powers? Just what is the criteria one should look for?

So in closing I am of the opinion that SRF & KYI Are equally good, equally safe places to learn institutionalized none original Kriya Yoga as Lahiri Mahasaya taught it. This is an important point. Be safe in ones seeking. When the student is ready the Guru appears. Until then either one of these sources will bring a person much good in their practice.

Lavendar · March 10, 2017, 8:50pm

Would someone please tell me what is the “bouncing half lotus.” I have not heard of this until now.

PYislove wrote “Devotees beware, a live guru may not be a spiritually living guru.” Perhaps you are trying to point out that because one calls themselves a guru they may not be living a spiritual life. Please clarify what you mean.

PYislove · March 10, 2017, 8:50pm

Lavendar;;;;;;
Unless one reaches higher levels of samadhi [ Self-Realization] we are all spiritually dead, even though we seem to be alive and walking around.
We are all still just dreaming that that relative world is real- it is not!
This is the cautionary part - there are many fast talking charismatic
persons who can attract students and are unrealized. They cannot take
you very far as the are not “living Gurus”. Not easy to tell for many out there!
The religious world is really full of false teachers who often have great
ambitions but no realization.
A “living Guru” functions fully for devotees whether in the body or not,
the physical body is no longer necessary for a real Guru to work with
devotees.

Bouncing lotus is a half lotus while bouncing the other knee up and down with the hand to limber up the hips and knees.
I don’t know if anyone teaches it anymore, it may be in a couple of older
books on hatha yoga.

Lavendar · March 10, 2017, 8:50pm

Okay, PYislove, you are talking about false gurus. Unrealized teachers. Much has all ready been said about this on several different Yoga Forum threads. This is nothing new. False spiritual teachers have been around throughout the ages. So, I presume this all boils down to PY being a “living guru” and helping devotees even though he is no longer in the physical realm. Even though I do not share the same kriya lineage as you, I do respect your views and unwavering dedication / support of Paramahamsa Yogananda and SRF.
No, can’t say I have ever seen the “bouncing lotus” done. But, thank you for elaborating on this. I am aware of a pose called the “butterfly” where the side to side motion is like the fluttering of a butterfly’s wings.( I know you are not referring to the butterfly pose)

PYislove · March 10, 2017, 8:50pm

[QUOTE=Seeking;77231]There are accounts of others that show P.Y. Did modify the Kriya of Lahiri Mahasaya i will put some links up for everyone. And address some more of this busy rightnow.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure their opinions are that reliable.
would you like to enlarge on exactly what these changes are?

Seeking · March 10, 2017, 8:50pm

[QUOTE=PYislove;77326]I am not sure their opinions are that reliable.
would you like to enlarge on exactly what these changes are?[/QUOTE]

I see now that Kriya is too fractured to be discussed, different groups have different beliefs and devotions so why should I an honest truth seeker beat my head up against that wall? Lol no thanks. If you have doubts just search the answers are available, you may not like what you find though. Probably better of just sticking to what you already know.

PYislove · March 10, 2017, 8:50pm

Paramahansa Yogananda and Self-Realization Fellowship are one and the same.
SRF accurately teaches and represents the master’s final wishes
and vision for His great legacy.
His founding of an organization does not oppose what LM was telling
most other devotees. LM was clearly making sure that it was launched
by the right divine soul without a lot of initial confusion.

Since Lahairi Mahasaya did give different versions of Kriya Yoga
to various devotees according to their needs. He has set the
precedent for other Self-realized teachers to adapt it for the
needs of others. I believe Yogananda when He tells us that;
"The very same Kriya Yoga that I learned from SY is what
I have taught here.“
Does anyone have clear evidence to dispute this claim?
I hope that no one here holds a mindset that there is
"only one way” to do or teach anything. Yogis should
leave that narrowness behind long ago.
Again - the results will tell the story.

This major global spiritual dispensation was being
set up to bring Meditation and Kriya Yoga globally and Yogananda
was the one being prepared for this huge undertaking.
It had to be adaptable to a very wide range of devotees from
many faiths and cultures.
His work is a great success…

[QUOTE=Seeking;77268]All you are doing is spreading the Church of SRF point of view and it is not correct. Kechari is most certainly needed from personal experience not the company line. I can report it closes the circuit and the effect is profound.

I deeply respect P.Y. More than you will ever know. SRF is not P.Y. Unless you are very old you are relying on those that came after the Masters departure.

I can appreciate the profound change SRF has brought in your life. Truly I can Paramahansa Yoganandas Lessons have been with me for well over 25 years.

Lets bottom line this shall we?

I ask you to stop writing about agendas ok? Everybody & Every orginization to include SRF has one. That does not by itself make it bad as your writing insinuates.
Babaji and Lahiri Mahasaya expressly forbid the forming of groups and orginizations around Kriya.
Lahiri Mahasaya is the ultimate authority on Kriya second only to Babaji. L.M. Codified Kriya for the householder.
P.Y. Simplified as he saw fit, good I will not dare argue what he decided I have no idea what his reasons were. My question is did he? Or was it someone who came after him? Did he sit with you and say dear one I changed L.H.'s kriya because it was not as streamlined as it could be? No he did not now did he? So how do you know anyhing more than those whom you respect have taught you? Answer you do not.
I asked the monks of KYI in person I said Swamaji why is your version of Kriya so different from what I was taught by SRF? Why does it match how his book described the practice so much more than what SRF teaches? by the way he did know the SRF methods. He said you must understand Paramahansaji came to America in the 1920’s people then thought sitting on the floor was insane. So he changed things so his audience of the time could derive some good from Kriya practice. Sri Harinanda came to America in the 70’s he looked around and said the people are ready lets give it all to them.