Raw milk

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#1

most yogi texts advocate milk, but their milk was from lovingly treated animals, and raw

ours is by many considered toxic with chemicals and perversion of the animal, and pasteurization

does anyone drink raw cow / goat milk,
and does anyone advocate NO MILK based upon the way our milk is different?

i’ve noted a glass of milk goes right into my bones and makes them feel stronger, energetically, immediately,
although some conspiracy movement says it makes our bones weaker i have seen this not true.

#2

I feel a lot cleaner without dairy, and I get my bone nutrition from greens and almond milk. I also haven’t been sick in years though I work with the public- I credit the absence of milk-fed mucous in my body where germs like to root. I’m sure milk and milk products ( ghee ) are great for you in a balanced way especially from the happy cows but for me, a person whose weaknesses aren’t in the food category-it was an easy choice and since it’s been good to me-I believe I’ll keep it. Namaste

#3

[QUOTE=Dream Yogi;25127]
i’ve noted a glass of milk goes right into my bones and makes them feel stronger, energetically, immediately,
although some conspiracy movement says it makes our bones weaker i have seen this not true.[/QUOTE]

Milk and dairy products are the first and biggest calcium source in nature; they do everything but weaker your bones. If you feel better every time you take your milk, don’t spot doing so. As Buddha himself said, asceticism is not the way, but the equilibrium.

“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” Buddha

The idea behind Yoga, in my opinion is to feel in harmony with yourself and your environment. If you do things just to restrain yourself , even though you don’t really believe in them, the result would lead you to suffering, that’s about all.

Raw milk is clinically dangerous due to the amount of microorganisms it contains. I can assure you a Staphylococcal Infection has nothing “pure” in it and is quite more “toxic” than anything you can add on milk.

I love milk: low-fat, pasteurized every time. About 1L a day. Yes, I’m going to end with Hypercalcemia one day, but I find its taste great and its nutritional advantages close to none.

And don’t even make me start talking about cheese… Oh, I love cheese…

Cheers

#4

i dont think its necessarily a conspiracy when people say dairy will make your bones weaker. There are clear facts behind that. Foods with too much protein do cause blood to become more acidic and the body will draw on calcium from bones to neutralise blood. Maybe the conspiracy is the dairy producers who run “educational” campaigns that often run at schools so we grow up thinking dairy is necessary. Calcium needs to be in a 2:1 ratio with magnesium to be utilised optimally by the body. in milk it is about 11:1 and cheese about 28:1. That means we end up with a magnesium imbalance…the heart needs magnesium to stay healthy.

An ayurvedic doctor told me that in yogic or ayurvedic tradition milk is considered sattvic, one reason being that it was “given” . im not sure i agree that even in the days when the milk was raw and the animals treated with respect it can be said it was ever “given”. surely it has always been taken from the cow?!

I think in this day and age although milk may still be considered sattvic, it is certainly not in keeping with ahimsa when it is farmed in such a gross and disrespectful manner, which in my mind suggests it should not be promoted as sattvic unless in exceptional circumstances where one knws exactly hwo it has been farmed. As with alot of western and eastern philosophy there is contradiction here, in the west we are waking up to see it as a rather unhealthy and unecessary food. the yogis who found it sattvic were working within a totally different life situation in those days.

#5

I first left out dairy from my diet for personal health reasons but having done it for years now, I have incorporated other reasons such as the one above by anula : The factory farming of animals is a terrible thing on many fronts, engendering coarness in ourselves,depriving the animals of a quality life and wrecking the environment with their waste matter ,methane and viruses. Then you get to the effect eating too much meat has on health. Namaste

#6

[QUOTE=anula;25139] There are clear facts behind that. Foods with too much protein do cause blood to become more acidic and the body will draw on calcium from bones to neutralise blood. Maybe the conspiracy is the dairy producers who run “educational” campaigns that often run at schools so we grow up thinking dairy is necessary. Calcium needs to be in a 2:1 ratio with magnesium to be utilised optimally by the body. in milk it is about 11:1 and cheese about 28:1. That means we end up with a magnesium imbalance…the heart needs magnesium to stay healthy.
.[/QUOTE]

Can you provide the scientific journals these “studied” were published in? I would really be interested in such, cause I have never ever heard of that in all my practice years.

First of all, protein metabolism produces nitrogenated metabolites (reason why you have a positive nitrogen balance on a rich protein diet) which actually produce a pH higher than 7.4 which is the normal pH of blood. That would mean you can’t “acidify” blood. For example Rhesus protein (RH) has the ability and function of avoiding blood acidification.

Second, if it was true it acidifies blood, the body buffer mechanisms consist of a lot more mechanisms, and none includes Calcium drawn from bone, since Calcium is a positive ion with a +2 charge. The buffering systems consist mainly of respiration (using hyperventilation to increase pH), the HCO3 buffering system (Changing bicarbonate to carbonic acid, and viscevera), H/Na and N/2Cl pumps in the urinary system, etc. None has to do anything with calcium.

Third, just thinking on daily requirements. The FDA gives Magnesium daily requirement around 350mg/day, Calcium requirement 1000-1200mg which would mean a 4:1 ratio.

Fourth, if you consume huge amounts of Calcium your bones would tend to CAPTURE it, NOT RELEASE IT. If you where to have 10L of Milk a day for 20 years, you’ll end up having hyper calcic bones and a stomach issue due to the excess, but you’ll never end up having hyper-acid blood, I can asure you that…

Hope this makes all this clear

Take care…

#7

Also, for any who tend toward osteoporosis after age 30 it becomes more difficult for your body to absorb the calcium.

I’m a milk girl myself. I’d rather take a chance on “toxins” than be osteo ridden. I’ve seen too much of that in my life.

#8

[QUOTE=Alix;25159]Also, for any who tend toward osteoporosis after age 30 it becomes more difficult for your body to absorb the calcium.

I’m a milk girl myself. I’d rather take a chance on “toxins” than be osteo ridden. I’ve seen too much of that in my life. [/QUOTE]

Women can “pack” Calcium into bones until they reach about their 22-25 years of age. After that, you depend ALMOST ENTIRELY in what you eat. SO being a “Milk Girl” as you call yourself is the best way to avoid pathological fractures in the future! :smiley:

#9

To Xamilo.

Check phosphor-calcium ratios in animal proteins. I read that the extra phosphor is eliminated as calcium-phoshate, thus it drains the organism’s calcium reserves. The calcium content of dairy must be seen in this larger context, and than it’s high position as calcium provider might be shaken. It is a myth that milk and dairy is the best calcium source. Of course if we look at what most people eat in rich countries, this might be true. But there are just as good sources, even better ones, of vegetal origin; people just do not use them. Dairy is a good source, but not the best, maybe only for those who limit their choices by their habits.

Ever wondered why there is such high rates of osteoporosis in rich countries ? I don’t think americans or germans suffer form the lack of dairy, and not just they have it, but they use it a lot. One would say lack of calcium should not be a problem at all. Yet it is, as osteo shows.

#10

[QUOTE=Hubert;25162]To Xamilo.

Check phosphor-calcium ratios in animal proteins. I read that the extra phosphor is eliminated as calcium-phoshate, thus it drains the organism’s calcium reserves. The calcium content of dairy must be seen in this larger context, and than it’s high position as calcium provider might be shaken. It is a myth that milk and dairy is the best calcium source. Of course if we look at what most people eat in rich countries, this might be true. But there are just as good sources, even better ones, of vegetal origin; people just do not use them. Dairy is a good source, but not the best, maybe only for those who limit their choices by their habits.

Ever wondered why there is such high rates of osteoporosis in rich countries ? I don’t think americans or germans suffer form the lack of dairy, and not just they have it, but they use it a lot. One would say lack of calcium should not be a problem at all. Yet it is, as osteo shows.[/QUOTE]

Calcium/PHophorous Ratio is a myth. It was believed it had to be maintained in balance about 50 years ago. If you want to read something about this I’ll recommend Gropper’s: [I]Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism[/I] book. Its kind of the easiest bibliography I can think of at the moment to help you with understand the metabolism of Calcium and its Relationship to Phosphorus.

In the other hand you say its a myth Milk and Dairy are the best Calcium source. Could you provide then the example on which is THE BEST Calcium Source then? If I ain’t wrong, last time I checked the bibliography it was still the best source for calcium intake. That’s the reason why, since Vegan diets have become more popular, Calcium fortification in products like Orange Juice has become a need to reach daily intake on an average vegan diet. I agree you can get your calcium intake on a Vegan diet, but I disagree calcium sources are as good (or a lot better as you say) as dairy products.

Low Calcium ingestion is not the source of Osteoporosis, and thinking so its a mayor mistake. You can have a 3g daily intake of Calcium, but if you’ve got a low Vitamin D production you won’t be able to absorb ANY, and you’ll just excrete the excessive mineral. If you have enough Vitamin D, but you don’t activate it because you receive absolutely no sun light (which is needed for such process), you won’t absorb any. If you suffer from an Hepatic diease, you won’t be able to absorb such, etc, etc, etc.

Since you’re giving Epidemiology facts now, I invite you to find the NCBI Data Base of the U.S: National Institute of Health, and search for the exact Epidemiology on Osteoporosis, where you will find the direct relationship between osteoporosis and low social/economical class. Is a very interesting study actually. You can check as ell the Framingham’s Study to help you have a different more real and statistic impression of Osteoporosis disease in the U.S. regarding the epidemiological vision.

I invite you as well to look at this article:
Cooper C, Campion G, Melton LJ 3rd. Hip fractures in the elderly: a world-wide projection. Osteoporos Int. 1992 Nov;2(6):285-9

In this article the author concludes the amount of hip fractures due to osteoporosis disease was statistically higher in Asian countries (but Osteoporosis rates are about the same).

I’m giving you an example with a country you used to clarify such:

USA: 30,229,233 cases for a pop: 293,655,405
India: 109,639,624 cases for a pop: 1,065,070,6072
Germany: 8,484,886 cases for a pop: 82,424,6092
South Korea: 3,191,940 cases for a pop: 48,233,7602

I don’t see a big difference between a mostly Vegetarian country like India or a country like Korea and and the U.S. or Germany. Does this mean Indian are taking milk while nobody sees them and its subsidized by the government, or maybe calcium intake from dairy/non diary products has nothing to do with Osteoporosis levels?

Just for your info mate…

Take care

Camilo

#11

I can’t argue all that. Obviously you are much more knowledgable. But I have the feeling that you missed some points.

Animal protein - calcium-phosphate ratio - calcium loss. You discard this as obsolete, and togheter with it, the supposed role of high animal protein diet in osteoporosis. Is this what you are saying ?

As about the studies of osteo, again a few things can be said. For example low social economic class does not mean they eat less animal protein (especially in the US), just as well it can be said they try to compensate, and have even more than the “knowledgable” refined rich people. Same with the data of India as vegan country. Unless one has data about what amount of animal protein are really used, (dairy is one of them, and vegetarians use it), one cannot jump to conclusions.

Thank you for the appointed literature. I doubt I will read them, anyway your post is a good reminder to listen more and talk less. :slight_smile:

#12

[QUOTE=Hubert;25167]I can’t argue all that. Obviously you are much more knowledgable. But I have the feeling that you missed some points.

Animal protein - calcium-phosphate ratio - calcium loss. You discard this as obsolete, and togheter with it, the supposed role of high animal protein diet in osteoporosis. Is this what you are saying ?

As about the studies of osteo, again a few things can be said. For example low social economic class does not mean they eat less animal protein (especially in the US), just as well it can be said they try to compensate, and have even more than the “knowledgable” refined rich people. Same with the data of India as vegan country. Unless one has data about what amount of animal protein are really used, (dairy is one of them, and vegetarians use it), one cannot jump to conclusions.

Thank you for the appointed literature. I doubt I will read them, anyway your post is a good reminder to listen more and talk less. :)[/QUOTE]

Calcium/Phosphorous ratio is not clinical useful. Homeostasis of ions is controlled by the Kidneys, making it irrelevant to “ratio” things up (except when there is deficiency, of course)

I discard “animal” protein, because I find it exclusive. Proteins are all broken down to amino-acids, so the source of the protein is not of much relevance, in regards to just the protein. Yes, whey protein for example is absorbed at a much higher rate than egg protein (ovoalbumin) or soy protein as an example, but the relation which is yet to be established regards high-protein consumption, being animal protein, vegetable protein, synthetic protein with osteoporosis. There are a lot of other things going on there, this is just a “basic” line.

Unfortunately, lower socio-economical classes DO EAT les prtein in their diets, and that ha been wel stablished already. You can have a look at the US Census Bureau of Population and Health Estimates, 2004, where you would find the surveys done to the population about their daily food intake, and it does have a close relationship. I’m not jumping into conclusions, that?s why my post ended with a question and not an affirmation. I was just stating the facts round the ratio between them, and I thught India (due to the Yoga forum :D) was a good example, just to show its not the U.S. or rich developed countries the ones suffering from Osteoporosi. Now, if we talk about cardiovascular diseases, certain types of cancer, you bet they do have a relationship with eating meat for sure:D

#13

I drink a lot of rice milk and soy milk.

Mmm.

#14

Hubert, there are many factors at play in why Americans (or Germans or other “rich” nations) have higher osteoporosis rates. It is not fair to make the comparison based solely on dairy availability.

Nutritionists and dieticians recommend calcium enriched products if you do NOT take in enough dairy. This would seem to indicate (to me at least) that dairy is important in maintaining healthy bones.

A good yoga practice is also important so that the weight bearing can “push” the calcium into your bones.

#15

[QUOTE=Dream Yogi;25127]

i’ve noted a glass of milk goes right into my bones and makes them feel stronger, energetically, immediately,
although some conspiracy movement says it makes our bones weaker i have seen this not true.[/QUOTE]

If I noticed that for myself, then that would be all I need to know?
Ideally all cows would be organic and treated great, sometimes we have to make the best of what we have.
my best to you
Brotherr Neil

#16

[quote=Dream Yogi;25127]most yogi texts advocate milk, but their milk was from lovingly treated animals, and raw

ours is by many considered toxic with chemicals and perversion of the animal, and pasteurization

does anyone drink raw cow / goat milk,
and does anyone advocate NO MILK based upon the way our milk is different?

i’ve noted a glass of milk goes right into my bones and makes them feel stronger, energetically, immediately,
although some conspiracy movement says it makes our bones weaker i have seen this not true.[/quote]

[I] Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it,
unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.[/I]

:: paraphrased from the Buddha

I think this is a wonderful teaching of discernment given by the Buddha and I am glad that it shared here in this thread.

Scientific articles should be read with the same discernment and commitment to truth. Studies are produced by both government agencies, private companies, and bodies of strict academic or scientific pursuit. Read them all with a critical mind and like Dream Yogi, consider your personal experience along with all that you are evaluating from outside yourself.

Dream Yogi, it is very true what you have shared with us: the yogic and ayurvedic texts were written within the context of Indian culture which is at the opposite end of the spectrum with regards to how milk is produce in much of the rest of the world. Even now, rural and village Indian families will have cows, buffalo and yaks that are fed and cared for; they are treasured as part of the larger family and home. (I understand the sad situation of many urban cows in India, but please, that would a conversation for a different thread.)

It is true that conventional, or factory farms in the USA, do not produce an ideal milk source for human, both for our gross body (1st [I]kosha)[/I] or for the energetic, subtler 4 [I]koshas[/I]. Rather than being toxic, which has a strict definition, the issues of concern for most yogis are likely to be compassionate treatment for the animals, generically modified food sources for the animals, growth hormones which become endocrine disruptors in the human body, and again fertilizer and pesticides for fields of feed corn. There are other concerns too, as in the ones Tony offered, but these are a few of the bigger issues being addressed in the realms of [I]organic[/I], [I]conventional[/I] and [I]heritage[/I] farms in the USA.

I was raised on a 500-acre dairy farm in Michigan. It was rated as a small, conventional farm, meaning it was not organic. Our animals where fed GMO corn and alfalfa and they were are also milked when being treated with antibiotics–this was all within regulations and was monitored directly by the state and local inspectors.

I drank raw milk growing up. I drink raw, organic milk now. I drink raw yak, buffalo and cow’s milk when I travel in Europe, through Indian and in Asia proper. If you are interested, Winsor Dairy is the farm that my family has our raw milk share through: http://www.windsordairy.com/. There is a lot of wonderful, intelligent information on the Windsor website, as the farm is run by a husband and wife, who are both farmers and large-animal veterinarians. They offer raw milk shares and also sell their milk to Organic Valley cooperative which then pasteurizes, homogenizes and sells their milk products in stores and markets.

Regarding your question about advocating no milk, I would answer this: Animal products (meats, dairy and eggs) are the most important items to buy organic, in my professional and personal opinion, so if you cannot buy organic, I would recommend strictly limiting these products, if eating any at all.

All the best,
Nichole

#17

sorry i am not able to tell what scientific journals these studies were produced in but i would suggest looking at the work of Dr Michael Klapper MD and that of Natural Nutrition College and Institute of Optimum Nutrition in Uk fi you are interested. Clearly , your knowledge is vast so i cannot personally challenge that, as mine is far less. Suffice to say that i follow the belief that dairy products are detrimental to our health for reasons stated by the people/institutions above, and also from observng my own body when consuming them.

#18

There may be a myriad of issues or topics to consider when addressing the consumption of milk. And some of the confusion comes when everyone is trying to respond to a different issue.

When using the phrase “best source” one has to look at “best”. Highest source isn’t necessarily what is best and that “best” may vary from one person to the next.

Generally speaking, deep green leafy vegetables are a sound source of calcium for adults. Here’s a list of the top 10 foods highest in calcium, bearing in mind that they may not be appropriate for everyone.

Generally speaking, what we teach as part of the nutrition of Purna Yoga? is that cow’s milk is designed to make a large cow. If you want to be a large cow then this may be completely appropriate to consume throughout your life.

The milk of smaller animals tends to be better - I am referring to goat’s milk for example and hope none of you will be rushing out to try and milk a mouse having heard this. Further, that milk is best when it is consumed within 30 minutes of milking.

The above information is shared only with those interested in studying with me and what I have to share, not for the purposes of debate or proving anything because at the end of the day it is not to me to be absorbed with how much milk YOU drink. That is purely up to you.

#19

[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;25284]
The milk of smaller animals tends to be better - I am referring to goat’s milk for example and hope none of you will be rushing out to try and milk a mouse having heard this. Further, that milk is best when it is consumed within 30 minutes of milking.
[/QUOTE]

Great post as always mate.
But I would have to disagree on the “30 minutes of milking”. Milk is one of the biggest sources of microorganisms, and drinking milk without prior pasteurization can be harmful for your health, being intoxication on raw milk the third biggest cause of gastrointestinal infection in rural places in the U.S. I know everything “natural” sounds great, but as beautiful as nature is, it contains as many wonderful as lethal things going on there…

#20

I respect your right to have your view and for me there are valid elements within it. However, know that we do not share a view, just a small overlapping.

I will however correct you as you’re asserting my position as “everything natural” sounds great. That is not my position at all. For example I’ve written many times on the issues with marijuana use and yoga. There isn’t anyone over the age of twenty who hasn’t heard someone say “but it’s a plant that grows in nature”, just as foxglove grows in nature, coffee beans, Cherry laurel.

I personally do not drink milk and find the “standard” western view of cow’s milk in diet to be frequently misguided, but very, very well marketed. So I am not an advocate for the consumption of dairy products by human adults whatsoever. But it is fine if you drink as much as you like.

Goat’s milk more accurately mimics the profile of human breast milk. The question to weigh is whether one wants a beverage which has had its enzymes destroyed, vitamin content diminished, beneficial bacteria killed, and amino acids altered by heating the beverage through pasteurization. There is also some data which indicates lactose is altered making it more readily absorbable and that in conjunction with the demand placed on the pancreas to produce digestive enzymes may be linked to diabetes.

I simply want to stress mindful choosing. This comes up over and over again. Should I eat meat? Should I drink Cow’s milk? Should I inoculate my toddler with H1N1 vaccine? Mindful choosing leads to an inner harmony with life as one can thus take a fuller responsibility for that life and its direction.

Drink what you’d like. But don’t chose from rote habit. Pay attention to what works for you and avoid group think. Not because it’s natural, though that’s not a bad reason:-)