Reducing speech to math / modifications of the mind

Allow me to do a tech-approach concerning speech/listening and the mind.

I tried reducing spoken language (speech) to math, because they are quite similar since they both use expressions, but math is a simpler model.
Usually when I want to model something, I choose a more compact language than human language, like sages use aphorisms instead of detailed anecdotes.
If anybody has a better/other way of looking at this matter, please say so.

Ok here we go.
Example: in math/computer science, an basic expression (1=3) is a combination of:

[ul]
[li]input ( ‘1’), [/li][li]an assignment operator/modifier (’=’)[/li][li]output (‘3’)[/li][/ul]

Patanjali speaks about ‘modifications of the mind’…my assumption is that a modifier is basically inherent to an operator.

So with speech an expression (hello=hello) is a combination of:

[ul]
[li]inputdata / the thought (‘hello’)[/li][li]modifications of the mind ‘=’ (interpreting/translating/hearing/speaking)[/li][li]outputdata / the speech ( ‘hello’)[/li][/ul]

(this is in case of speech, however in case of listening the input/outputs are swapped)

So, when somebody says “[I]this will look better on you[/I]”, different modifications can produce different outputs:

[ul]
[li]“this will look better on you” (zero modifications of the mind, input=output, transparency)[/li][li]“the sender wants to make you look nice” (some modifications occured)[/li][li]“the sender thinks you look bad” (too much modifications occured)[/li][li]“you suck” (modification circus)[/li][/ul]

Patanjali tries to promote a state where one gets rid of the modifications of the mind iirc.
Also Patanjali promotes a healthy discriminating mind.
But if somebody has zero modifications in the mind, he’ll probably not be able to discriminate between ‘sarcasm’ / ‘ironic’ or just ‘straightforward’ speech right?..because with zero modifications everything will just sound like ‘straightforward’ speech, while the sender’s intention might be sarcastic…which results in having no full understanding between sender / receiver.
So, my question would be: is getting rid of the modifications of the mind, purely needed when one wants to go into deep absorption/meditation?
And if one goes back to practice daily work, does one automatically restore its modifications of the mind again?
Where are these modifications stored then?
Am I thinking in a correct way?
Any feedback is appreciated.

This is an interesting way to look at it sqz. Indeed we can apply Patanjali’s sutras in such a way as to interpret correctly the correct information we are receiving, but how then do we differentiate between irony and sarcasm? Surprisingly, communication studies have shown that the actual speech content of our communication accounts for a very small percentage our communication, the vast majority of it is made up of body language and the tone of our voice. This is how we can catch out when somebody is lying to us, such as when a wife asks their partner, “Where were you last night” and they reply “I was out with Paul” (when actually it was Paula!) - somehow the partner knows that something is not quite right, because subconsciously the body language and tone of voice has given him away. There are very subtle indicators in the body like microgestures, pupil dilation signs that can indicate what is actually being communicated to us. Even more subtle than this are the very subtle mental waves that we emanate, which cannot be grasped by any of the 5 senses, but are grasped by our internal sense the mind. In our example the partner is interrogating her partner because even already she feels something is not quite right, because unconsciously she has received those subtle mental waves the very moment her partner was cheating on her the day before.

So your mind is receiving impressions every moment ranging from gross to increasing degrees of subtle, to most subtle taking place respectively in your conscious, subconscious and unconscious mind. These are the modifications of your mind, every impression causes a ripple in your mind-field and stirs into motion various actions in body and mind. You will not be ordinarily aware that these modifications are even taking place, until they became obvious. The same is true when we get a disease, the disease begins at the very subtle causal level(karanasharira) and at that time there are no obvious symptoms, however we may get premonitions in our dreams - or maybe somebody who has a strong connection with you will get it.

Patanjali describes a special siddhi an attainment of the mind whereby one will be able to understand every language, even the language of animals. How is this possible?? As language is just an expression of causal activity, when you have been able to still the modifications of your own mind field to a great extent, what normally was not privily to your conscious mind, will become conscious to you. You will be able to meet somebody who speaks a language that you don’t know and understand perfectly everything they said to you, even deeper than the speaker themselves.

<quote>
Patanjali tries to promote a state where one gets rid of the modifications of the mind iirc.
Also Patanjali promotes a healthy discriminating mind.
But if somebody has zero modifications in the mind, he’ll probably not be able to discriminate between ‘sarcasm’ / ‘ironic’ or just ‘straightforward’ speech right?..because with zero modifications everything will just sound like ‘straightforward’ speech, while the sender’s intention might be sarcastic…which results in having no full understanding between sender / receiver.
So, my question would be: is getting rid of the modifications of the mind, purely needed when one wants to go into deep absorption/meditation?
And if one goes back to practice daily work, does one automatically restore its modifications of the mind again?
Where are these modifications stored then?
Am I thinking in a correct way?
Any feedback is appreciated.
</quote>

A very interesting view of how we can look at communication/learning in a broader sense.
As many things written by great sages, now I find one more example of “seemingly” contradictory statements.

When you say, “modifications of mind”, that itself raises the question of “modification over what?”. With reference to what? I think, the mind modification comes from the already stored mind impressions/opinions, and current impulse to the mind. Now, how the impressions are stored to mind? I think, that is because of life impressions from current life and as as well as from the “karma” (whatever that means :p) and from impressions of previous births(If one believes in Ayurveda). So, in summary, present modification of mind is a function past and present impressions.

Now, is getting rid of mind modifications is really needed? I dont’ think anybody can do that and be in that state for longer time like days and years, however much one claims to be. It may be possible to be in that state while one is in deep mediation. but as soon as one comes out of the mediation session, the awareness and mind discrimination comes back. Even ancient sages used to do long “tapasya” (deep medidation) but after that, even for them, it is normal discriminative mind function. I would even say those with non-discrimative mind for longer times (without medidation) may be on some medication/drugs :stuck_out_tongue:

Now, why is that mind without modification is promoted? Because, it gives an environment to mind to absorb the good and throw away the bad. It may give one new perspective.

All mind modifications are stored in the mind as impressions. They are not stored in an external hard drive, as far as I know;). And they form “the baggage of mind” and may further improve/hinder learning/perspective and form part of “karma” by being the triggers of “karma”. Hence mind modifications are important and therefore need a filter/discrimination and hence comes mind discrimination.

To me, all are needed…mind modification…mind awareness…a mind without modications…“karma”…mind discrimination…and above all, destiny and God’s blessings…!!!

Mind modification is Patanjali?s central theme, since he defines Yoga as a cessation of modifications. It is possible to think mathematical and build a model; but we need to do it right to avoid erroneous conclusions.

Before getting to the process of modifications, we need to have a good definition of mind that underlines Patanjali?s model. It is provided by Sage Vyasa, the first commentator on Yoga Sutra:
A. MIND AS SANSKĀRĀS:
? Mind, a manipulator of thoughts: (ego-centric)
? Mind, a pre-processor of thoughts: (karmic pre-dispositions)
B. MIND AS MEMORY:
? Mind, a consolidator of habits: (inertia and status-quo)
? Mind, a supplier of subjective bias: (emotional baggage of the past)
C. MIND, A DRIVER OF THOUGHTS: (potential prana energy)
D. MIND, A DISTRACTOR: (Chitta-vrutti, generic tendency to flit)
E. MIND, A POWER: (potential to become Universal Mind)

What Patanjali calls as Chitta is an individual mind which is a residue, opaque and dwarfed version of the Universal Mind that is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. Thus, a mind that is burdened by the legacies of sanskāra and memory, captivated by the latent impressions, lured into the thinking process, fickle and subjugated, has to become what it originally was, Universal. That process of transformation is Yoga. And that is why we concern ourselves with annihilating sanskāras, bypassing memory, upgrading prāṇa, restraining mind modifications and investing the psychic powers in advanc?ing these efforts.
Mind is like clay with unlimited plasticity that can be recycled in different images, again and again. Or like a heap of fine sand that constantly changes its shape with the blowing wind. Or, if mind is pictured as a fluid like water that is ordinarily calm and still, imag?ine how a drop of water can cause the surface to stir. This would set in motion a chain reaction, either limited to a few ripples on the surface or to a vortex of stirring movement deep down. Once in motion, it takes a while before the surface returns to the origi?nal state of calmness. This whole episode is a mind modification, and because thoughts occur so incessantly, mind is perpetually modifying.

Each physical action (or a conscious non-action) is preceded by an ?action in thought.? So the process of ?thinking? itself is the cause of a mind modification. Thus, mind itself modifies and the modifying agent is a thought in any of the 5 form: Valid knowledge, Misconceptions or incorrect knowledge (wrong sensing and/or inference), Delusion (wrong use of imaging faculty), Passivity (a self-induced half trance or sleep), Memory (compulsive hoarding of emotion-laden thought forms into storage).

Sqz,

?(interpreting/translating/hearing/speaking)? are modifiers and not modifications and Patanajali has given a comprehensive list of modifiers above that covers all.
?Patanjali tries to promote a state where one gets rid of the modifications of the mind iirc.
Also Patanjali promotes a healthy discriminating mind.?
One has to remember that Patanjali?s yoga is a path. Discrimination (self vs not-self) happens in the earlier stages and gets replaced in the advanced stages by discernment (between purusha and prakriti). But an important part is the discernment occurs in the perception itself and not in cognition which is a thought process. So, discernment doesn?t modify mind.

?is getting rid of the modifications of the mind, purely needed when one wants to go into deep absorption/meditation? And if one goes back to practice daily work, does one automatically restore its modifications of the mind again?
In meditation and Samadhi the mind itself is non-attached, so its modifications, if any don?t interfere. But, one more important thing happens. Advanced yogis derive their knowledge from now transformed mind into Universal Mind and do not depend on knowledge manufactured via thought process that could cause any modifications; even when back into daily work.

?Where are these modifications stored then??
Modifications are an effect of memory, thought images are stored back.

Surya Deva,

?So your mind is receiving impressions every moment ranging from gross to increasing degrees of subtle, to most subtle taking place respectively in your conscious, subconscious and unconscious mind. These are the modifications of your mind, every impression causes a ripple in your mind-field and stirs into motion various actions in body and mind.?
Yes, but the impressions are not the modifications; they cause them.

Yaram,

?Now, why is that mind without modification is promoted? Because, it gives an environment to mind to absorb the good and throw away the bad. It may give one new perspective.?
True, without modifications mind gets a gap; but it is for having a perception free of every conditioning that thought brings into play. ?Good and bad? are subjective and Patanjali has never indulged into it.
?Now, is getting rid of mind modifications is really needed??
Most of your observations are correct. But, answer to the above is, yes. Because mind is not our only power and thinking not the only tool. Mind free of modifications gets an opportunity to regain its Universal omniscient status and that is a far superior source of knowledge.

SQZ, basically you have not correctly understood what is meant by modiications of the mind. According to Samkhya-Yoga philosophy, everything in manifestation is a product of the primeval substance, which icalled prakriti. Prakriti itself has three components sattva, rajas, and tamas, which are known as the gunas. All of the various manifestations of nature are caused by different combinations or modifications of the gunas.

In addition the world is seen as evolving layer upon layer. For example, the first principle to evolve from prakriti is called mahat (the great), also known as buddhi. Virtue, knowledge, dispassion, and power are products or modifications of buddhi, in which sattva predominates. Demerit, ignorance, passion, and impotence are modifications of buddhi in which tamas predominates.

Patanjali takes a similar approach in his analysis of mental activity or citta. Citta can be thought of as the underlying substance, much the same as buddhi in the previous example. Perception, misperception, memory, conceptualization, and sleep are the modifications of citta.

Muchos gracias everybody.
I will read your replies carefully, and will probably reply a.s.a.p. after digesting them.

Yes, but the impressions are not the modifications; they cause them.

I agree, sorry for causing confusion with my wording, I meant to say the impressions cause the modifications.

When you say, “modifications of mind”, that itself raises the question of “modification over what?”. With reference to what? I think, the mind modification comes from the already stored mind impressions/opinions, and current impulse to the mind. Now, how the impressions are stored to mind? I think, that is because of life impressions from current life and as as well as from the “karma” (whatever that means ) and from impressions of previous births(If one believes in Ayurveda). So, in summary, present modification of mind is a function past and present impressions.

In a sense this is correct because our current impressions, memories and opinions can also also be modified. However, here Patanjali is referring rather to the entire substance of the mind field or the chitta which undergoes modifications. It undergoes modifications every moment because impressions are being received continuously by the senses. The very first modification Patanjali describes is correct perception. Why is this a modification? It is a modification because in order of sense perception to be constructed it require three things: the sense object, the instrument of sensing and the cognizer. When there is a contact between the cognizer, the instrument of sensing and the sense object a perceptual act takes place. If either are missing perception will not take place e.g. if the sense object is not in contact with the instrument of senses and the cognizer, then no perception can take place. If the sense object is present, but the instrument of senses is not present, then no perception takes place. If the sense object is present, the instrument of senses are also present but there is no cognizer than no perception takes place.

The instrument of senses are turn divided into three categories: 5 sense organs(jnanaindriyas); 5 motor organs(karmaindriyas) and the internal processing organ or mind, further subdivided into processing mind, personality, intellect. When there is a contact between the particles of light and the pupil of the eyes, the information is transmitted via the optic nerve to the brain, where the information is processed by the mind which deliberates on what the impression could be, it is then relayed to the personality which personalizes the information, and then relayed to the intellect which ascertains the nature of the perception, before finally relaying it to the cognizer and then a perceptual act takes place.

In other words even before we actually have a perception of the anything in the world such in this case form, colour and light, several stages of apperception takes place which can be broadly classified into the 4 stages(sense contact, processing, personalizing and ascertaining). So whatever we actually perceive is a modification of the mind substance(chitta). As long as we have sense perception, modifications are taking place continuously. This is why Patanjali prescribes pratyhara, shutting down the sense organs, because as long as we receive sense impressions the modifications of the mind cannot cease.

This is a subtle nuance of Yoga philosophy that many people misunderstand and something we all take for granted. We think that the sensory perception is the original and real world, hence take this world of space, time and matter, including our body to be real. However, it is actually a sensory construction that takes places in our mind-field: the mind field literally takes on the form of the modifications. This point is now being understood in modern neurbiology and neurophilosophy: that our entire sensory/phenomenal world is a virtual construct. This means everything we perceive in this virtual reality, even the brain is a virtual construct, an idea strongly hinted by the [i]holographic theory of the brain[/u] So this leaves us with only one conclusion if our entire reality is a virtual construct, then it means the actual substance of our reality is virtual stuff - very similar to the Yogic mind-field substance.

The implications of this is whatever manifest phenomena, action, effect you witness in phenomenal reality is caused by an unmanifest mind stuff, which in Samkhya-Yoga is variously called chitta, prakriti, moolaprakriti As this unmanfiest substance is all pervading and continuous, there is no principle of locality operating within it, this is why it is modeled as a function of the modes of change or the gunas. The Gunas cannot operate in isolation, but always operate in relation to one another, in the same a string when made taut has triple stress factors working on it which change in relation to one another. In this manner the entire universe that we witness is interconnected and entangled at the fundamental guna level.

So the gunas are the real causes behind every phenomena we witness, and these are the chitta-vrittis of yoga. (In fact Patanjali explicitly makes the connection between the gunas and the vrittis in the last chapter) The gunas are the cause of evolution at the macrocosmic scale of the expansion and contraction of the universe, at the microscopic scale the generation and dissolution of particles, at the bodily scale the cause of the regulation of the body(vata, pitta, kapha) At the energetic level they are the cause of the movement of the pranas. At the mental level they are the cause of thoughts and emotions. At the level of the intelligence they are the cause of the construction of sense perception. Indeed, the gunas are the fundamental cause of everything we witness in reality.

Like in quantum physics just as everything has its wavefunction, in Yoga everything has its guna-function. In terms of quantum field theory we can express the same in terms of implicate order and explicate order. If you can access the reality of any phenomena at the guna level you will know the exact, original, primordial and unadulterated nature of that phenomena. So using sqz’s example of speech, every speech uttered will have a guna-function, and the guna-function will give away the actual meaning of the speech.

Now if it was that easy to access the guna-function level, then we would be all be doing it effortlessly. Unfortunately or fortunately, to access this fundamental level of nature requires stilling gradually and systematically from gross to subtle the modifications of the mind field. In Yoga this is achieved on several fronts: stilling the emotional modifications(yamas) stilling the physiological and psychological modifications(niyamas) stilling the somatic modifications(asanas) stilling the vital force modifications, usually through breath(pranayama) stilling the sensory modifications(pratyhara) stilling the mental modifications, thought activity(dharana) stilling the consciousness states modifications(dhyana) and stilling egocentricity(subjective-objective) modifications(samadhi) In this way you will be able to gradually still every modification of the mind field - the mind will become crystal clear like a clear lens and reveal reality as it really is.

1 Like

I think that you have correctly understood the [I]purpose[/I] of nirodha, or at least your understanding agrees with mine. The purpose is to get to the point of transparency, so that the faculty of ascertainment clearly reflects the reality of the object. Getting to the point of transparency involves transcending those things that color our perception and get in the way of understanding, including ego and emotion, and sometimes including memories and imagination.

This is an apparent contradiction, and so our understanding has to be wrong somewhere. I believe the misunderstanding is in the interpretation of the word ‘nirodha’, which is variously translated as either cessation, restraint, or restriction, and interpreted as stopping or stilling. I believe that cessation is incorrect, and nirodha is really more of a restraining, focusing, and calming process.

I think you are right again. In fact with zero modifications, there would not be any awareness of speech, or the ability to discriminate its real intent. As mentioned above, pramana, or correct perception is the first modification mentioned by Patanjali.

It depends on how deep you want to go. In object-oriented types of meditation (samprajnata), the answer is no. What is required is more of a calming and focusing of the mind. To my way of thinking, this type of meditation can be quite useful. But if you’re really looking to transcend the human condition, then the answer would be yes.