Religious pluralism vs Religious intolerance

This debate needs to be had, as this has been the common theme of all the discussions we have had so far. I have relaxed in my views recently, I have accepted the rising spirituality in the West and the superficiality of calling this spirituality Hinduism. Even though, it is obvious for everyone to see it is identical to Hinduism. I have even accepted that some Christians are showing signs of improvement, by moving to more Gnostic interpretations of Christianity.

I have recently even started to drop my insistance on calling Yoga/Vedanta/Ayurveda Hinduism, and have no problem calling it world spirituality. I even started a thread on ancient science and technology, where the majority of my discussion was not Hindu greatness, but the greatness of the pyramids. I am starting to accept the possibility that there was indeed a common spiritual heritage on his planet going back to extreme antiquity, and India has merely preserved this tradition the best. Rather than condemning this pastor, the pastor was instead given a sympathetic response and the interviewer in the video was accused of misrepresenting him.

But despite myself(and perhaps N as well recently) being so accomodating, so open minded and flexible in changing our opinions, I have seen absolutely no concession from the opposite camp. What really shocked me right now in “Is the West becoming more spiritual” is the lack of outrage to an outrageous comment by a Christian MP to a Hindu guru, on his own turf - “You bloody Indian dog” This harks back to the past, when I showed how a major Indian pastor a member of a massive Church organization, wrote a book demonizing Hinduism. I have shown evidence of Christian missionary activity against Hindus in India and the demonization of its religion.

The more I try to relax in my views, something else comes along, and makes me rethink my position again. Why should we be tolerant and religious pluralistic, but Christianity and Islam can be intolerant and fundamentalist, and to point out how pervasive and deeply entrenched this is invites condemnation from the PC brigade. Such an attitude reeks of double standards and hypocrisy.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;53101]This debate needs to be had, as this has been the common theme of all the discussions we have had so far. I have relaxed in my views recently, I have accepted the rising spirituality in the West and the superficiality of calling this spirituality Hinduism. Even though, it is obvious for everyone to see it is identical to Hinduism. I have even accepted that some Christians are showing signs of improvement, by moving to more Gnostic interpretations of Christianity.

I have recently even started to drop my insistance on calling Yoga/Vedanta/Ayurveda Hinduism, and have no problem calling it world spirituality. I even started a thread on ancient science and technology, where the majority of my discussion was not Hindu greatness, but the greatness of the pyramids. I am starting to accept the possibility that there was indeed a common spiritual heritage on his planet going back to extreme antiquity, and India has merely preserved this tradition the best.

But despite myself(and perhaps N as well recently) being so accomodating, so open minded and flexible in changing our opinions, I have seen absolutely no concession from the opposite camp. What really shocked me right now in “Is the West becoming more spiritual” is the lack of outrage to an outrageous comment by a Christian MP to a Hindu guru, on his own turf - “You bloody Indian dog” This harks back to the past, when I showed how a major Indian pastor a member of a massive Church organization, wrote a book demonizing Hinduism. I have shown evidence of Christian missionary activity against Hindus in India and the demonization of its religion.

The more I try to relax in my views, something else comes along, and makes me rethink my position again. Why should we be tolerant and religious pluralistic, but Christianity and Islam can be intolerant and fundamentalist, and to point out how pervasive and deeply entrenched this is invites condemnation from the PC brigade. Such an attitude reeks of double standards and hypocrisy.[/QUOTE]

Forgive me for bringing our old argument back up, but Christianity and Islam is exactly what I had in mind when I was debating whether the West is “civilized”/spiritual or not. I believe that the West cannot be civilized or spiritual as long as these contradictory ideals are on the same palate. The same also applies to India and foolish politically correct Indians. India also can never make progress and become economically or spiritually developed as long as it accommodates Christianity and Islam. One HAS to give way to the other.

The following information needs to be in this thread, because it gives several examples of how endemic the religious intolerance from Christians and Muslims are, despite repeated efforts by Hindus to embrace them as equal paths to god:

I have already posted in the past what Christian missionaries and Islamic missionaries are doing in India. Should we just pretend it is not happening, and let Hindus get persecuted in their own country. I have not met a single Hindu guru who has not tried to embrace Christians and Muslims. In this discourse, Zakir Naik, a highly popular Muslim speaker who gives addresses to an audience of hundreds of thousands of Muslims, ridicules Hinduism, rejects the gesture of kindness and co-existence by the Hindu guru, and concludes by saying he wants to save the Hindu guru by bringing him to Islam. The audience give his message of peace a hostile response, even jeer him and attack him during the Q&A

These are Indian Muslims from Bangalore, the most moderate Muslims in the world.

In this debate, between a Hindu speaker, Dr Dubey, and a popular Christian speaker and scholar, pretty much ridicules Hinduism, does not want to play friendly and makes no attempt understand what the Hindu speaker says. He ends up insulting the Hindu speaker, his sentiments and his religion, and the audience consisting of predominatly Christian members give him a hostile and cold response. Again, his message is for religious tolerance and religious pluralrism, all paths lead to god. A common view given by Hindu gurus.

Hunt accuses Hinduism of being demonic, its meditation as a means to get possessed by demons.

Why do you continue to ignore this obvious hatred amongst Christians and Muslims for other religions? Don’t you realise by not acknowledging this very real problem, you are taking part in perpetuating it?

Your view as you express it - as far as I know - is the right one.

We cannot expect everyone to think as we think - to behave as we behave.

How do you suggest we address this problem?

I will respond to your post tomorrow. I am going to sleep now, and I am very poorly :frowning:

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;53130]I will respond to your post tomorrow. I am going to sleep now, and I am very poorly :([/QUOTE]

NOOOOO! I need someone to keep online company while I am studying for my AP Statistics quiz!

[QUOTE=The Scales;53124]Your view as you express it - as far as I know - is the right one.

We cannot expect everyone to think as we think - to behave as we behave.

How do you suggest we address this problem?[/QUOTE]

Well, one way is to do what Hindu gurus have been doing for a long time, teaching Yoga and meditation as secular activities open to all religions, and getting Muslims and Christians to join in their groups. This has worked for some Muslims and Christians(more Christians) and not condemning other religions i.e., religious pluralism.

However, the Muslims and Christians who do end up joining these groups are a minority, the majority are religiously intolerant. In India, big changes like bringing Yoga and meditation into school and teaching spiritual philosophy have been thwarted by the Christians and Muslims. In fact so extreme is the opposition, that Christians and Muslims even object to accurate Indian history being taught. This includes the Muslim period, which was responsible for massive genocide of Hindus. As well as the British rule period, which was responsible for economic genocide and the destruction of India’s cultural heritage.

Effectively, this is holocaust denying. This history has happened, the Muslims and British records themselves record the atrocities they inflicted on the Hindus and the wealth they looted. It is history, so it needs to be taught. Indian people deserve to know their history and their heritage, but the Christian and Muslim minorities in India who hold positions of power, are denying this to the Indian people. On the contrary, they want to depict India as a hopeless land, full of supersitition, casteism, wife-burning, prostitution, that they civilised. Nor are they content with even this, they want to destroy Hinduism in India. Islamic terrorism is hell-bent on destroying Hindus. Christian missionaries are are doing the same. They together form an unholy alliance.

Indian people deserve to know their entire approx 10,000(recorded) years of history. They deserve to know their heritage forms like Yoga, Vedanta, Samkhya, Ayurveda. These should be taught in Indian schools itself. To not teach them, would be like going to a European school and not learning about the Greeks.

There are some very powerful and evil forces within Christinanity and Islam today that are preventing the resurgence of world spirituality. Hence, why Christianity and Islam are a huge problem.

Hindus have been facing constant persection for 1000 years by Muslims and Christians, and is still has not ended. In this post I will focus on the Muslims. Everyday, Islamic terrorists bomb some part of India. Recently, it was a holy Hindu site. The plan of Islamic terrorists, which have a lot of Muslim sympathizers in India, is to increase the numbers of Muslims in Indian states, forcing that state to institute Muslim policies and then for them to demand or force second partition to create a super Islamic state, “Mughalistan”

http://mughalistan.wordpress.com/

Mughalistan (or Mughalstan) is the name of an independent homeland proposed for the Muslims of India. This Mughal-Muslim state in the Indian subcontinent will include all of North India and Eastern India, and will be formed by merging Pakistan and Bangladesh through a large corridor of land running across the Indo-Gangetic plain, the heartland of India. This Mughalistan corridor will comprise Muslim-majority areas of Northern India and eastern India that will be partitioned for the second time in history.

The comprehensive plan for a second partition of India was first developed by the Mughalstan Research Institute (MRI) of Jahangir Nagar University (Bangladesh) under the patronage of the two intelligence agencies, Pakistan’s Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) and Bangladesh’s Director General of Forces Intelligence, DGFI. The “Mughalistan Reaserch Institute of Bangladesh” has released a map where a Muslim corridor named “Mughalistan” connects Pakistan and Bangladesh via India.

Not surprisingly, Osama Bin Laden has thrown his support behind the concept and creation of this Greater Pakistan to “liberate” the Muslims of India from the Hindus. The Mumbai underworld (led by Karachi-based don Dawood Ibrahim who executed the gruesome 1993 Mumbai bombings), Jamaat-e-Islami, Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, Jaish-e-Mohammad and Hizbul Mujahideen have declared their unified support for creating this undivided Islamic nation in the Indian subcontinent. The Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) and Indian Mujahideen are working in tandem with the aforementioned organizations to waged Jihad against the Hindus of India.

It is important to note that in its “holy war” against India, the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba has openly declared Hindus to be the “enemies of Islam” who should all be converted or killed. The Lashkar-e-Tayyaba group has repeatedly claimed through its journals and websites that its main aim is to destroy the Indian republic and to annihilate Hinduism. Jaish-e-Mohammed has vowed to “liberate” not just Kashmir, but also to hoist the Islamic flag atop the historic Red Fort after capturing New Delhi and the rest of India.

SIMI has championed the “liberation of India through Islam” and aim to restore the supremacy of Islam through the resurrection of the Khilafat (Islamic Caliphate), emphasis on the Muslim Ummah (Islamic) and the waging of Jihad on the Indian state, secularism, democracy and nationalism – the basic keystones of the Indian Constitution – as these concepts are antithetical to Islam.

The Indian Mujahideen’s emails warn the Hindus to “Accept Islam and save yourselves” and or else face a horrible fate: – “Hindus! O disbelieving faithless Indians! Haven’t you still realized that the falsehood of your 33 crore dirty mud idols and the blasphemy of your deaf, dumb, mute and naked idols of ram, krishna and hanuman are not at all going to save your necks, Insha-Allah, from being slaughtered by our [Muslim] hands?”

I mean come on, while our Hindu gurus are going out there trying to embrace Muslims, they are hell-bent on destrying Hindus. They formed a massive network of terrorism that is operating in every part of India, and are directly connected to Pakistan’s ISI, Bangladesh secret services. How then can we say that Islam is a religion of peace? When even the scripture directly ordains this fanaticism and slaughter.

Rather than condemning this pastor, the pastor was instead given a sympathetic response and the interviewer in the video was accused of misrepresenting him.

Sorry, I just realised on re-reading the OP that I had copy and pasted this sentence wrong. This line was from another post. Just ignore it.

Major scholars and historians on the Muslim genocide of Hindus:

FRANCOIS GAUTIER – “Let it be said right away: the massacres perpetuated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the Holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis; or the massacre of the Armenians by the Turks…”

T…he source of Muslim’s fanatical aggression, Gautier points out, is the Koran itself, from which he quotes: “Slay the infidels, wherever ye find them and prepare them for all kind of ambush”; and “Choose not thy friends among the infidels till they forsake their homes and the way of idolatory. If they return to paganism then take them whenever you find them and kill them.”

WILL DURANT, the famous historian summed it up like this:

“The Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex of order and freedom, culture and peace, can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within.”

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/32812

The relentless savagry inflicted on Hindus, just because they were Hindus. This carnage began only 2 years after Mohammmed death, under his own appointed Islamic leaders. They were consumed with hatred for all non-Muslims and vowed to have them all destroyed, as per the explicit instructions in the Quran.
The following are all primary source historical records, recorded by the Islamic historians themselves, gloating about how they invaded India and killed and humilated the dirty infidels

The first jihads waged on Hindus for being - Hindu.

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_futuhu_frameset.htm

Ghaznivid Period

711-850CE

Amir Subuktigin’s First Invasion of Hind

After this victory he made frequent expeditions into Hind, in the prosecution of holy wars, and there he conquered forts upon lofty hills, in order to seize the treasures they contained, and expel their garrisons. He took all the property they contained into his own possession, and captured cities in Hind, which had up to that time been tenanted only by infidels and not trodden’ by the camels and horses of Musulmans.

Amir Subuktigin’s Second Invasion of Hind

When this intelligence reached the Amir, he considered it false, as being opposed to the usual habits of Jaipal, until repeated accounts to the same effect were brought, when the curtain which obscured the truth was withdrawn, and be knew that God had set his seal upon Jaipal’s heart, so that he might obtain the reward of his evil deeds, and had placed a veil between it and rectitude, so that he might obtain punishment for his wickedness and infidelity. The Sultan therefore sharpened the sword of intention in order to make an incursion upon his kingdom, and cleanse it from impurity and from his rejection of Islam. So he departed with his valiant servants and allies, relying upon the one God, and trusting in the fulfillment of the promise of victory, and he went on till he arrived with his troops in the country of Hind, and he killed everyone who, on the part of Jaipal, came out to oppose him.
The friends of God defeated their obstinate opponents, and quickly put them to a complete rout. Noon had not arrived when the Musulmans had wreaked their vengeance on the infidel enemies of God, killing 15,000 of them, spreading them like a carpet over the ground, and making them food for beasts and birds of prey. Fifteen elephants fell on the field of battle, as their legs, being pierced with arrows, became as motionless as if they had been in a quagmire, and their trunks were cut with the swords of the valiant heroes.

The enemy of God, Jaipal, and his children and grandchildren, and nephews, and the chief men of his tribe, and his relatives, were taken prisoners, and being strongly bound with ropes, were carried before the Sultan, like as evildoers, on whose faces the fumes of infidelity are evident, who are covered with the vapours of misfortune, will be bound and carried to Hell. Some had their arms forcibly tied behind their backs, some were seized by the cheek, some were driven by blows on the neck.

Battle of Waihind

When the Sultan had accomplished all his wishes and reduced all his enemies, in his happiness; he resolved on another holy expedition. He ornamented the entrance to his tent as well as, his standards, and marching towards Waihind, he encamped there in state, until he had established himself in that country, and had relieved himself from the toils of the campaign. News reached him of the Hindus taking refuge in the passes of the neighbouring hills, and concealing themselves in the forests and jungles, consulting amongst themselves about the means of attacking the Musulmans. He therefore despatched an army against them, to conquer their country, and disperse them. The army fell upon them, and committed such slaughter that their swords were covered with blood. Those who escaped death fled away like mountain goats, having seen the swords flashing as bright as stars at noonday, and dealing black and red death around them. Thus did the infidels meet with the punishment and loss due, to their deserts. The standards of the Sultan then returned happy and victorious to Ghazni, the face of Islam was made resplendent by his exertions, the teeth of the true faith displayed themselves in their laughter, the breasts of religion expanded, and the back of idolatry was broken.

Capture of Mathura

The Sultan then departed from the environs of the city,28 in which was a temple of the Hindus. The name of this place was Maharatu-l29 Hind. He saw there a building of exquisite structure, which the inhabitants said had been built, not by men, but by Genii, and there he witnessed practices contrary to the nature of man, and which could not be believed but from evidence of actual sight. The wall of the city was constructed of hard stone, and two gates opened upon the river flowing under the city, which were erected upon strong and lofty foundations, to protect them against the floods of the river and rains. On both sides of the city there were a thousand houses, to which idol temples were attached, all strengthened from top to bottom by rivets of iron, and all made of masonry work; and; opposite to them were other buildings, supported on broad wooden pillars, to give them strength.

In the middle of the city there was a temple larger and firmer than the rest, which can neither be described nor painted. The Sultan thus wrote respecting it: “If any should wish to construct a building equal to this, he would not be able to do it without expending an hundred thousand thousand red dinars, and it would occupy two hundred years, even though the most experienced and able workmen were [p. 40] employed.” Among the idols there were five made of red gold, each five yards high, fixed in the air without support. In the eyes of one of these idols there were two rubies, of such value, that if anyone were to sell such as are like them, he would obtain fifty thousand dinars. On another, there was a sapphire purer than water, and more sparkling than crystal; the weight was four hundred and fifty miskals. The two feet of another idol weighed four thousand four hundred miskals, and the entire quantity of gold yielded by the bodies of these idols was ninety-eight thousand three hundred miskals. The idols of silver amounted to two hundred, but they could not be weighed without breaking them to pieces and putting them into scales. The Sultan gave orders that all the temples should be burnt with naphtha and fire, and leveled with the ground.

1009-1024 CE: Expeditions into Hindustan

When Yaminu-d daula Aminu-l millat Mahmud Ghaznavi had rested for some time from his toil, he again, in order to strengthen the religion of the Prophet, evinced a desire to make war on the infidels of Hind, and accordingly marched in that direction. When his standards, the symbols of victory, cast the shadow of their arrival over capacious Hind, Pal bin Andpal,1 who, for his excessive wealth and numerous warriors, was more distinguished than the other princes of Hind, opposed Mahmud, and a terrible battle took place. The standards of the faithful became exalted, and those of the infidels were depressed. [p. 146] The Sultan himself having pursued the pagans, killed multitudes of them with the sword, and having arrived at the fort of Bhimnagar,2 he encamped his victorious army in its vicinity.

Expedition to Kanauj

From that place the Sultan proceeded to a certain city, which was accounted holy by the people of the country. In that city the men of Ghaznin saw so many strange and wonderful things, that to tell them or to write a description of them is no easy matter. There were a hundred palaces made of stone and marble, and the Sultan, in writing a description of these buildings to the nobles at Ghaznin, said "that if anyone wished to make palaces like these, even if he expended a hundred thousand times thousand dinars, and employed experienced superintendents for 200 years, even then they would not be finished. Again, they found five idols of the purest gold, in the eyes of each of which there were placed two rubies, and each of these rubies was worth 50,000 dinars: in another idol there were sapphires, which weighed 600 drachms. The number of silver idols upon the spot was more than 100.5 In short, Sultan Mahmud, having possessed himself of the booty, burned their idol-temples, and proceeded towards Kanauj.

When Mahmud returned victorious from this expedition to the royal residence of Ghaznin, he built a general mosque and a college, and endowed them with pious legacies. Some years after these events, Sultan Mahmud, of praiseworthy virtues, formed the design of taking Somnat, and of slaying the detestable idolators. On the 10th the Shaban, 416 H. (1025-6 A.D.), he marched towards Multan with 30,000 cavalry, [b]in addition to a multitude of [p. 154] men, who also bent their steps thither for their own pleasure, and for obtaining the reward of warring against infidels. Having arrived at that city in the middle of Ramazan, he resolved to travel the rest of the distance, by the way of the desert. The soldiers were obliged to carry water and forage for many days, and in addition the Sultan loaded 20,000 camels with water and provisions, so that the troops might by any means become diminished in number. Having passed that bloodthirsty desert,7 they saw on the edge of it several forts filled with fighting men, and abounding with instruments of war, but the omnipotent God struck fear into the hearts of the infidels, so that they delivered the forts over without striking a blow. Sultan Mahmud went from that place towards Nahrwala,8 and he killed and plundered the inhabitants of every city on the road at which he arrived, until in the month of Zi-l ka’da of the above year, he arrived at Somnat.

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_khulasatu_frameset.htm
Tenth Expedition-Thanesar. A.H. 405

The Raja’s brother, with two thousand horse, was also sent to meet the army, and to deliver the following message: ‘My brother is the subject and tributary of the king, but he begs permission to acquaint his majesty that the temple of Thanesar is the principal place of worship of the inhabitants of the country; that, although the religion of the king makes it an important and meritorious duty to destroy idols, still the king has already acquitted himself of this duty, in the destruction of the idols in the fort of Nagarkot. If he should be pleased to alter his resolution regarding Thanesar, and to fix a tribute to be paid by the country, Anandpal promises that the amount of it shall be annually paid to Mahmud; besides which, on his own part, he win present him with fifty elephants, and jewels to a considerable amount.’

"Mahmud replied: The religion of the faithful inculcates the following tenet: ‘That in proportion as [p. 31] the tenets of the Prophet are diffused, and his followers exert themselves in tile subversion of idolatry, so shall be their reward in heaven;’ that, therefore, it behoved him, with the assistance of God, to root out the worship of idols from the face of all India. How, then, should he spare Thanesar?

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_tabakat_frameset.htm
Twelfth Expedition – Kanauj, Mathura

"Proceeding from this place, the king arrived at Mathura, which was a very large city full of magnificent temples. It is the birth-place of Krishn (or) Basdeo, whom the Hindus venerate as an incarnation of God. When the Sultan reached the city no one came out to opposed him. The Sultan’s army plundered the whole city and set fire to the temples. They took immense booty, and by the Sultan’s order they broke up a golden image which was ninety-eight thousand three hundred miskals in weight; and there was also found a sapphire weighing four hundred and fifty miskals.

The Delhi Sultanate:

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_indian_hist_frameset.htm

1192-early 13th century

The Capture Of Benares

From that place the royal army proceeded towards Benares, which is the centre of the country of Hind, and here they destroyed nearly one thousand temples, and raised mosques on their foundations; and the knowledge of the law became promulgated, and the foundations of religion were established; and the face of the dinar and the diram was adorned with the name and blessed titles of the king. The Rais and chiefs of Hind came forward to proffer their allegiance. The government of that country was then bestowed on one of the most celebrated and exalted servants of the State, in order that he might distribute justice and repress idolatry.

When the king had settled all the affairs of the city and its vicinity, and the record of his celebrated holy wars had been written in histories and circulated throughout the breadth of the fourth inhabited quarter of the world, he returned to Ghazna. The standards of the Khusru,1 victorious in battle, were planted for some days on the fort of Asni, and the chiefs and elders all around hastened to his service with various kinds of rarities and presents, and his noble Court became the scene where the princess and generals of the world came to bow their heads in reverence.

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_malfuzat_frameset.htm
1392-1398

The Emperor Timur - An Autobiographical Memoir

The History Of My Expedition Against Hindustan

About this time there arose in my heart the desire to lead an expedition against the infidels, and to become a ghazi; for it had reached my ears that the slayer of infidels is a ghazi, and if he is slain he becomes a martyr. It was on this account that I formed this resolution, but I was undetermined in my mind whether I should direct my expedition against the infidels of China or against the infidels and polytheists of India. In this matter I sought an omen from the Kuran, and the verse I opened upon was this, “O Prophet, make war upon infidels and unbelievers and treat them with severity.”

My great officers told me that the inhabitants of Hindustan were infidels and unbelievers. In obedience to the order of Almighty God I determined on an expedition against them, and I issue orders to the amirs of mature years, and the leaders in war, to come before me, and when they had come together I questioned the assembly as to whether I should invade Hindustan or China, and said to them, “By the order of God and the Prophet it is incumbent upon me to make war upon these infidels and polytheists.” Throwing themselves upon their knees they all wished me good fortune. I demanded of the warrior chieftains whether I should direct my expedition against the infidels of Hindustan or China. At first they repeated fables and wise sayings, and then said, in the country of Hindustan there are four defences, and if anyone invading this extensive country breaks down these four defences, he becomes the conqueror of Hindustan.

My wazirs informed me that the whole amount of the revenue of India is six arbs; now each arb is a 100 krors, and each kror is a 100 lacs, and each lac is a 100,000 miskals of silver. Some of the nobles said “By the favour of Almighty God we may conquer India, but if we establish ourselves permanently therein, our race will degenerate and our children will become like the natives of those regions, and in a few generations their strength and valour will diminish.” The amirs of regiments (kushunat) were disturbed at these words, but I said to them, “My object in the invasion of Hindustan is to lead an expedition against the infidels that, according to the law of Muhammad (upon whom and his family be [p. 11] the blessing and peace of God), we pray convert to the true faith the people of that country and purify the land itself from the filth of infidelity and polytheism; and that we may overthrow their temples and idols and become ghazis and mujahids before God.” They gave an unwilling consent, but I placed no reliance upon them. At this time the wise men of Islam came before me, and a conversation began about the propriety of a war against infidels and polytheists; they gave it as their opinion that it is the duty of the Sultan of Islam, and all the people who profess that “there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the prophet of Allah,” for the sake of preserving their religion and strengthening their law, to exert their utmost endeavour for the suppression of the enemies of their faith. And it is the duty of every Muslim and true believer to use his utmost exertions in obedience to his ruler. When the edifying words of the wise-men reached the cars of the nobles, all their hearts were set upon a holy war in Hindustan, and throwing themselves on their knees, they repeated the Chapter of Victory.

Conquest of the Town of Sarsuti

When I made inquiries about the city of Sarsuti, I was informed that the people of the place were strangers to the religion of Islam, and they kept hogs in their houses and ate the flesh of those animals. When they heard of my arrival, they abandoned their city. I sent my cavalry in pursuit of them, and a great fight ensued. All these [p. 44] infidel Hindus were slain, their wives and children were made prisoners, and their property and goods became the spoil of the victors. The soldiers then returned, bringing with them several thousand Hindu women and children who became Muhammadans, and repeated the creed. Of all the braves who took part in this action, ‘Adi Bahadur Farrash was the only one who fell.

Massacre of 100,000 Hindus

At this Court Amir Jahan Shah and Amir Sulaiman Shah, and other amirs of experience, brought to my notice that, from the time of entering Hindustan up to the present time, we had taken more than 100,000 infidels and Hindus prisoners, and that they were all in my camp. On the previous day, when the enemy’s forces made the attack upon us, the prisoners made signs of rejoicing, uttered imprecations against us, and were ready, as soon as they heard of the enemy’s success, to form themselves into a body, break their bonds, plunder our tents, and then to go and join the enemy, and so increase his [p. 53] numbers and strength. I asked their advice about the prisoners, and they said that on the great day of battle these 100,000 prisoners could not be left with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the rules of war to set these idolaters and foes of Islam at liberty. In fact, no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword. When I heard these words I found them in accord with the rules of war, and I directly gave my command for the Tawachis to proclaim throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners was to put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. 100,000 infidels, impious idolaters, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasiru-d din ‘Umar, a counsellor and man of learning, who, in all his life, had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives.

I had been at Delhi fifteen days, which time I had passed in pleasure and enjoyment, holding royal Courts and giving great feasts. I then reflected that I had come to Hindustan to war against infidels, and my enterprize had been so blessed that wherever I had gone I had been victorious. I had triumphed over my adversaries, I had put to death some lacs of infidels and idolaters, and I had stained my proselyting sword with the blood of the enemies of the faith. Now this crowning victory had been won, and I felt that I ought not to indulge in ease, but rather to exert myself in warring against the infidels of Hindustan. Having made these reflections on the 22nd of Rabiu-l akhir, I again drew my sword to wage a religious war.
[p. 75]

Again I mounted my steed, and as I did so intelligence was brought to me that in the valley (darra) of Kutila, two kos distant, a large number of infidels and gabrs had collected with their wives and children, and with property, goods and cattle beyond all estimate. The road thither was arduous, through jungles and thickets. When I heard this my first thought was that I had been awake since midnight, I had traveled a long distance without any halt, and had surmounted many difficulties, I had won two splendid victories with a few brave soldiers, and I was very tired, I would therefore stop and take rest. But then I remembered that I had drawn my sword, and had come to Hind with the resolution of waging a holy war against its infidels, and so long as it was possible to fight with them, rest was unlawful for me.

Destruction of the Gabrs in the Valley of Kupila—Account of a Stone Cow Worshipped by the Gabrs

The valley of Kupila is situated at the foot of a mountain by which the river Ganges passes. Fifteen kos higher up there is a stone in the form of a cow, and the water of the river flows out of the mouth of that cow. The infidels of India worship this cow, and come hither from all quarters, from distances even of a year’s journey, to visit it. They bring here and cast into the river the ashes of their dead, whose corpses have been burned, believing this to be the means of salvation. They throw gold and silver into the river; they go down alive into the river, bathe their feet, sprinkle water on their heads, and have their heads and beards shaved. This they consider to be an act of devotion, just as the Muhammadans consider the pilgrimage to Mecca a pious work.
In this valley there was a large concourse of Hindus, having great riches in cattle and movables, so Timur resolved to attack them. On the 5th Jumada-l awwal he set his army in motion towards Kupila. It was the will of Heaven that these infidels should perish, so in the pride of their numbers and strength they awaited his approach, and had the temerity to resolve upon resistance. At the rising of the sun our army reached the valley. The right wing was under the command of Prince Pir Muhammad and Amir Sulaiman Shah, and the left under some renowned leaders. Amir Shah Malik and other officers with the centre began the attack. When the cries of our men and the noise of our drums reached them, the courage of the infidels failed. In their terror they fled for refuge to [p. 138] the mountains, but they were pursued and many were slain. A few who, half-dead, escaped the slaughter were scattered abroad. All their property and goods became the spoil of the victors.

The country having thus been cleansed from the pollution of infidels, the army returned back on the same day and recrossed the Ganges. Then Timur returned thanks for his victories, after which he mounted his horse and marched five kos down the river and there encamped.


There is far too much information to quote, so I have only quoted the information that is most relevant to this discussion. Now let us look at some common themes in the above:

Hindus were called idolators, filith, pollution by the Muslims. The Muslims took great glee in slaughtering Hindus, sometimes killing hundreds of thousands at a time. They greatly admired the architecture, engineering prowess and wealth of the Hindus, but they took it as a duty as prescribed by thier prophet, to destry all infidel temples, places of learning and destroyed hundreds of thousands of these over India.

The beginning of this campaign of death and destruction against infidels, begins during the life and time of Mohammed itself. The first invasion of India begins only 2 years after his death!

Now, how on earth can we maintain religious pluralrism with a religion like this? It would be like trying to be pluralistic and equal towards the Nazi religion.
It is blatantly clear that Islam is a terrorist religion, not only is its entire history full of terrorism to this very day, but its scripture itself gives explicit instructions on killing infidels as a way to winning great spoils in the life hereafter and gives explicit instructions on enslaving prisoners and sharing booty caught in war.

Your making these long posts that I don’t really want to read.

You’ve already outlined the problem at the beginning of the thread.

From what I gather you are worried about the loss of indian culture, and the alienation of the indigenous peoples from their native culture and religion by the efforts of people who believe in abrahamic religions?
Is this correct?
Is there anymore to it? I want to know what you think, not copy and paste.

I don’t really know if there is a whole bunch that can be done.
But we should think on it.

Wisdom arises from experience - it especially arises from sadhana.
Not everyone is on the same level as you know. There are some, many, who are at this moment beyond the touch of reason and logic.

Outline Problem:

Hindus are religiously pluralistic, they embrace the right of all people to have freedom in the matter of religion and to pursue their own religion. There is no clergy to interfere in what is a personal matter.

Christians and Muslims are religiously intolerant. They have historically hated Hindus, calling them all kinds of derogative names idolaters, demonic, filth, enemies of god, spawns of satan, beasts. At every opportunity they got, they did not bat an eye lid to put hundreds of thousands of Hindus to death. To destroy their temples and place of learning, rape their women. The hatred for the Hindus was even more amplified, considering how much Hindus loved their dharma and vedas, and refused to accept the Islamic and Christian religion.

This concerted effort to completely destroy and humilate the Hindus went on for 1400 years. For 1400 years, Hindus had to live under the fear of Muslims and then Christians. They could no longer live in peace in their own country and were treated like third class citizens, or sometimes even worse than animals.

What is the crime of the Hindu? That they believe in self development, divine soul, connecting to god, performing ones duties, and karma and reincarnation. These same views have now become very popular in the West in the form of the new-age movement, and once again Christians and Muslims are at it again in condemning this.

This persecution of Hindus is still going on today. As I have pointed out. The Indian national congress government, made up of mostly Christian and Muslim members is anti-Hindu. It does not for example recognise Hindu religious buildings, and the government can take over them. Because of this, many Hindu groups like the Arya Samaaj, Ramakrishna movement have appealed for being recognised as non-Hindu, in order to survive. Official double standards exist in government policies which favour Christians and Muslims, and disadvantage Hindus. In order to weaken Hindus, immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh are allowed into India, to increase the Muslim population of India artificially.

The Muslims in India are intolerant of Hindus, and Hindus are constantly on the receiving end of terror attacks, especially on places of worship. All the major Muslim bodies in India are terror outfits, and are liasing with the secret services in Pakistan and Bangladesh, in order partition India again, and turn North India into a super Islamic state.

Meanwhile, in North Eastern India and other parts of India, Christianity missionaries engage in mass conversations of Indian tribal population while denigrating Hinduism. They are sponsored by huge foreign Church organizations like the Southern Baptist Church in America.

With so much persecution ongoing for 1400 years by the same culprits, Chrisitianity and Islam, how can you expect Hindus to embrace these religions as equal? Hindus have not had a single apology either by representatives of Christianity or Islam, but on the contrary, representatives in Christianity and Islam justify their ethnic cleaning of the Hindus.

From my perspective Christianity and Islam are enemies of Hindus. Even though we afford Christians and Muslims the right to practice their religion how they deem fit, they do not afford us the same rights. Humilate, slander, destroy our temples and even kill us.

I live in multi ethnic country. Last week I attended a funeral of a Christian colleague in a catholic church(though I am Hindu by birth and faith). The priest said something that really caught my attention - “If I have to die in order to live, Oh Lord I surrender myself in your hands.” This reminded me of the concept of reincarnation and Ishwara Pranidhana!!! which many Christians will reject.

Basically, I think all religions teach the same concepts but because of inferiority complex, many of us think that the religion they practice is the best and they fail to see beyond the verses. It may be also that the preachers have deliberately misinterpreted the verses to divide and rule! Who knows??

Anyway, we Hindus respect other religions because we understand somewhere that it is because of their bad karma that they are not born Hindus!!!

Sorry if anyone has been offended with what I said and rest assured it is not intentional.

Humbly submitted.

Om Shanti.

[QUOTE=Mokshda;53236]I live in multi ethnic country. Last week I attended a funeral of a Christian colleague in a catholic church(though I am Hindu by birth and faith). The priest said something that really caught my attention - “If I have to die in order to live, Oh Lord I surrender myself in your hands.” This reminded me of the concept of reincarnation and Ishwara Pranidhana!!! which many Christians will reject.

Basically, I think all religions teach the same concepts but because of inferiority complex, many of us think that the religion they practice is the best and they fail to see beyond the verses. It may be also that the preachers have deliberately misinterpreted the verses to divide and rule! Who knows??

Anyway, we Hindus respect other religions because we understand somewhere that it is because of their bad karma that they are not born Hindus!!!

Sorry if anyone has been offended with what I said and rest assured it is not intentional.

Humbly submitted.

Om Shanti.[/QUOTE]

And that is why Christianity and Islam must perish. They sanction ignorance, intolerance, hatred, bigotry, willful ignorance, killing, subjugation, and so forth.

There is nothing good in these religions. If you strip away the organized religion, all you have remaining are clich?d ideals that appear in every single religion and philosophy. It will be of no great loss to the world to see these religions destroyed once and for all.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;53210]…

From my perspective Christianity and Islam are enemies of Hindus. Even though we afford Christians and Muslims the right to practice their religion how they deem fit, they do not afford us the same rights. Humilate, slander, destroy our temples and even kill us.[/QUOTE]

They ARE the enemies of Hindus.

We Hindus should never allow these mlecchas to practice their religion as they see fit, for that, in effect, is an indirect sanction to convert and kill us kaffirs/pagans.

This is what makes the difference between a religion that simply has certain beliefs, which maybe wrong, but a religiously pluralistic ethic allows these religions to be wrong, and a religion that is demonic. As Krishna calls it in the Gita.

For aregion to institutionalize the act of going out there and humilating, slandering, maiming, killing, and conspiring against another religion and that itself is sanctioned in the religious texts itself, then that is clearly demonic. Christianity and Islam, responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths of human beings, are thereby demonic religions. This is why I am finding it very difficult to be pluralistic towards them.

If we were not politically correct, we would all recognise the Abrahamic religions are the core reason for the darkness, death and destruction that has fallen on this planet. In the future, when scholars will not have to be politically correct, they will identify it as the core reason for why spirituality fell on this planet and the immense suffering humans had to go through.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;53266]This is what makes the difference between a religion that simply has certain beliefs, which maybe wrong, but a religiously pluralistic ethic allows these religions to be wrong, and a religion that is demonic. As Krishna calls it in the Gita.

For a religion to institutionalize the act of going out there and humilating, slandering, maiming, killing, and conspiring against another religion and that itself is sanctioned in the religious texts itself, then that is clearly demonic. Christianity and Islam, responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths of human beings, are thereby demonic religions. This is why I am finding it very difficult to be pluralistic towards them.

If we were not politically correct, we would all recognise the Abrahamic religions are the core reason for the darkness, death and destruction that has fallen on this planet. In the future, when scholars will not have to be politically correct, they will identify it as the core reason for why spirituality fell on this planet and the immense suffering humans had to go through.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. It is saddening that the whole does not understand this fact.

When it comes down to the nuts and bolts, it is these politically correct fools who are the evil ones, allowing demonic and harmful ideologies to thrive, thus propagating intolerance, misery, oppression, and hatred to subsequent generations.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;53101]This debate needs to be had, as this has been the common theme of all the discussions we have had so far. I have relaxed in my views recently, I have accepted the rising spirituality in the West and the superficiality of calling this spirituality Hinduism. Even though, it is obvious for everyone to see it is identical to Hinduism. I have even accepted that some Christians are showing signs of improvement, by moving to more Gnostic interpretations of Christianity.

I have recently even started to drop my insistance on calling Yoga/Vedanta/Ayurveda Hinduism, and have no problem calling it world spirituality. I even started a thread on ancient science and technology, where the majority of my discussion was not Hindu greatness, but the greatness of the pyramids. I am starting to accept the possibility that there was indeed a common spiritual heritage on his planet going back to extreme antiquity, and India has merely preserved this tradition the best. Rather than condemning this pastor, the pastor was instead given a sympathetic response and the interviewer in the video was accused of misrepresenting him.

But despite myself(and perhaps N as well recently) being so accomodating, so open minded and flexible in changing our opinions, I have seen absolutely no concession from the opposite camp. What really shocked me right now in “Is the West becoming more spiritual” is the lack of outrage to an outrageous comment by a Christian MP to a Hindu guru, on his own turf - “You bloody Indian dog” This harks back to the past, when I showed how a major Indian pastor a member of a massive Church organization, wrote a book demonizing Hinduism. I have shown evidence of Christian missionary activity against Hindus in India and the demonization of its religion.

The more I try to relax in my views, something else comes along, and makes me rethink my position again. Why should we be tolerant and religious pluralistic, but Christianity and Islam can be intolerant and fundamentalist, and to point out how pervasive and deeply entrenched this is invites condemnation from the PC brigade. Such an attitude reeks of double standards and hypocrisy.[/QUOTE]

One person said this, yes?