Scrambling a mantra

I have been practicing certain Kundalini yoga meditations, a certain portion of which consists of a mantra SA-TA-NA-MA.

SA(birth) TA(life) NA(death) MA(rebirth)

SA-TA-NA literally means satan in Russian, which makes my brain make a particular connection due to me originally being a Russian speaker.

I was wondering whether this connection was accidental, or whether it had some type of a correlation.

I was also wondering whether it would be acceptable to scramble the mantra, or have its fragments be in a different order since it is ultimately just a collection of appropriate energy directing sounds.

hi, fellow russian speaker:) i was wondering the same question! actually in Hebrew ( the word originated from that language) satana means rival…or something like this…

I don’t know of the particular mantra you have quoted. But if you look at the meaning (example - Sa means birth etc.) do you really think you can scramble it? Birth- Lfe- Death- Rebirth is a natural sequence.

I will share my little knowledge about mantras. First, it is in Sanskrit, a language used for thousands of years. Most anglo-european languages and their mother languages were born when Sanskrit was in full flourish. No surprise that you find similarities between Sanskrit and Russian.

Not every sentence in Sanskrit is a mantra. Mantras are inspired expressions usually in highly meditative state. Each mantra is such a superlative creation that it is simultaneously a meaningful statement, a rhythmic phonetic expression and a powerful vibrational trigger usually targeted at some specific result expressed in the statement. What is not known to many English-speakers is the pronunciation notations that go with a matra (like a music sheet). Each syllable in a mantra is to be recited in a particular octave and for a given brief or long moment. A teacher would also give an image with a mantra to meditate on while reciting the mantra.

Given all these dimensions and the creative ability of the creator of the mantra, trying to change even a small bit is an adventure one would dread.

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;69067]I don’t know of the particular mantra you have quoted. But if you look at the meaning (example - Sa means birth etc.) do you really think you can scramble it? Birth- Lfe- Death- Rebirth is a natural sequence.

I will share my little knowledge about mantras. First, it is in Sanskrit, a language used for thousands of years. Most anglo-european languages and their mother languages were born when Sanskrit was in full flourish. No surprise that you find similarities between Sanskrit and Russian.

Not every sentence in Sanskrit is a mantra. Mantras are inspired expressions usually in highly meditative state. Each mantra is such a superlative creation that it is simultaneously a meaningful statement, a rhythmic phonetic expression and a powerful vibrational trigger usually targeted at some specific result expressed in the statement. What is not known to many English-speakers is the pronunciation notations that go with a matra (like a music sheet). Each syllable in a mantra is to be recited in a particular octave and for a given brief or long moment. A teacher would also give an image with a mantra to meditate on while reciting the mantra.

Given all these dimensions and the creative ability of the creator of the mantra, trying to change even a small bit is an adventure one would dread.[/QUOTE]

I mostly asked whether it was possible because I was originally under the impression that the meaning of a particular mantra or the order of it is just the icing on the cake that mainly consists of actual sound manipulations which directs the energies using each syllable or fragment.

If the mantras are indeed flawless up to the point of baring meaning even without the conscious understanding, then I definitely understand that tweaking them would be a very bad idea.

I would certainly not want to create a possibly damaging cacophony out of the originally benevolent mantras, although the question still stands about the first three fragments meaning satan literally in Russian or Hebrew (as CityMonk mentioned.)

One of the possible theories that I had about the matter is related to possible intentional abuse or bastardizing of the mantra. Due to a large quantity of main religions being abusive and or oppressive, perhaps the word was deliberately created to prevent people from using a very core mantra while taking out the last fragment to make it incomplete and useless (while deterring people from the complete version)?

SA TA NA without the last fragment not only destroys the mantra (according to Suhas) but also means Birth Life Death without the rebirth, also making the meaning very abrupt and even cynical.

I think it is perfectly possible that it may be an intentional blockage.

I don’t think there is any real correlation, but if you don’t feel comfortable with it, then you should talk to one of your teachers about ways that you can practice it to help you connect with the deeper meaning of it.

There was a certain bajan I used to sing all the time that made me laugh and giggle because there was a word in there that sounded like ‘banana’ (immature, yeah? but i couldn’t get over it). When I left the sangha that used to so sing it, I searched for it through the internet and heard it chanted in a slightely different way. Once it was modified in my mind, I just stopped making that association while chanting it, and I was able to focus more on the words. Simple things like extending the chanting or breaking up the syllables in your mind and practicing it while focusing on the syllables as slow ‘sa-ta’ and ‘na-ma’, with a psychological pause (if not even a spoken pause) in the middle may be enough to help you re associate the syllables. If you teacher is well versed in this, they can perhaps show you other ways to focus on the syllables, or lead you through a meditation to help you reassociate the syllables with their intended purpose.

Or, hopefully there is a Kundalini teacher on the forum who knows enough to help determine the theory behind whether it is dangerous to be rearranging the syllables.

[QUOTE=suryadaya;69071]I don’t think there is any real correlation, but if you don’t feel comfortable with it, then you should talk to one of your teachers about ways that you can practice it to help you connect with the deeper meaning of it.

There was a certain bajan I used to sing all the time that made me laugh and giggle because there was a word in there that sounded like ‘banana’ (immature, yeah? but i couldn’t get over it). When I left the sangha that used to so sing it, I searched for it through the internet and heard it chanted in a slightely different way. Once it was modified in my mind, I just stopped making that association while chanting it, and I was able to focus more on the words. Simple things like extending the chanting or breaking up the syllables in your mind and practicing it while focusing on the syllables as slow ‘sa-ta’ and ‘na-ma’, with a psychological pause (if not even a spoken pause) in the middle may be enough to help you re associate the syllables. If you teacher is well versed in this, they can perhaps show you other ways to focus on the syllables, or lead you through a meditation to help you reassociate the syllables with their intended purpose.

Or, hopefully there is a Kundalini teacher on the forum who knows enough to help determine the theory behind whether it is dangerous to be rearranging the syllables.[/QUOTE]

I will be honest, there are actually a few pretty hysterical mantras out there, such as:

HUM DUM HAR HAR.
This mantra opens the Heart Chakra and means "We the universe, God, God."
as taken from a reference site.

or AKAL, MAHA KAL:
means “Undying, Great death” is a powerful life-giving chant removing fear and relaxing the mind.

KAL means poop in Russian

perhaps I could indeed look up whether there are alternative ways of saying the mantra, some of the versions I heard sounded more like SU-TU-NA-MA which breaks the association pretty well.

[QUOTE=Genkaz;69072]I will be honest, there are actually a few pretty hysterical mantras out there… KAL means poop in Russian[/QUOTE]

Hahaha. Poop.

Now I have ‘oomkaaaara japa lena, [B]yay [/B]jiivanana [B]banaaanaaaa[/B]’ stuck in my head. Thanks.

[QUOTE=suryadaya;69074]Hahaha. Poop.

Now I have ‘oomkaaaara japa lena, [B]yay [/B]jiivanana [B]banaaanaaaa[/B]’ stuck in my head. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

oh wow, that is hysterical, I understand your difficulty.

[QUOTE=Genkaz;69075]oh wow, that is hysterical, I understand your difficulty.[/QUOTE]

Most of the examples of this mantra I looked up appear to sound exactly as it is spelled in English (which is not surprising I suppose)

I will try instead following another advise by separating the fragments into two groups: SA-TA and NA-MA, hopefully it is a good idea.

In other words, I could simply have a longer pause after the TA while continuing the AAAA sound before moving to NA.

[QUOTE=Genkaz;69079]Most of the examples of this mantra I looked up appear to sound exactly as it is spelled in English (which is not surprising I suppose)

I will try instead following another advise by separating the fragments into two groups: SA-TA and NA-MA, hopefully it is a good idea.

In other words, I could simply have a longer pause after the TA while continuing the AAAA sound before moving to NA.[/QUOTE]

Extending letters in Vedic chanting, Sanskrit, can actually change the word… But varying the meter and length is commonly done in any language learning if it aids the student in understanding. For now, yes, lengthening would I be suitable I think, if it will help you to overcome a negative association in the mind. Truly, the deeper meaning is what we are looking for, and if the chant distracts you, then you must strive to find you way to the other side of preconceptions in order to benefit from the mantra. A kundalini teacher might have a better idea, since I am not familiar… But I think you should try it an see If it helps. In Vedic chanting lessons, we often broke down mantras into smaller parts for learning, and theyy were super strict, so I can’t see any problem with it.

[QUOTE=suryadaya;69080]Extending letters in Vedic chanting, Sanskrit, can actually change the word… But varying the meter and length is commonly done in any language learning if it aids the student in understanding. For now, yes, lengthening would I be suitable I think, if it will help you to overcome a negative association in the mind. Truly, the deeper meaning is what we are looking for, and if the chant distracts you, then you must strive to find you way to the other side of preconceptions in order to benefit from the mantra. A kundalini teacher might have a better idea, since I am not familiar… But I think you should try it an see If it helps. In Vedic chanting lessons, we often broke down mantras into smaller parts for learning, and theyy were super strict, so I can’t see any problem with it.[/QUOTE]

Just tried it, I’m afraid that it does not really break the association. Speaking of afraid, perhaps it is normal to be experiencing fear during certain yoga exercises? Afterall, a lot of the exercises that I am attempting DO interact with solar plexus chakra.

A lot of emotions can come up during yoga practices. Chanting crosses many aspects of our being and dislodges stagnancy on many levels. Try and use svadhyaya- self study and reflection, to understand it and work through it. What is it that you are afraid of? Where does it come from?

When one is ascribing to a Kundalini practice (the one “furthered” by Yogi Bhajan) then it’s best to ask those within that lineage.

I’m frequently conflicted with these sorts of questions. On one hand, as a teacher, I effort to not do or say that which may “shrink” the student. On the other hand, I began my practice in that style and it’s simply not for me. Please do consider chatting this up with a teacher who can tell you what they are doing and why they are doing it.

Generally speaking, something that is repeated over and over is not a mantra, however a mantra is repeated over and over. Get my drift? Sanskrit is a primordial language. Its alphabet (if you will) originates from sounds, unlike most other languages - though I am not a sanskrit scholar. The recitation of the sounds, with feeling, intention, and in a particular tone and order have an efficacy. When these things are absent, so is the efficacy.

[QUOTE=Genkaz;69069]

SA TA NA without the last fragment not only destroys the mantra (according to Suhas) but also means Birth Life Death without the rebirth, also making the meaning very abrupt and even cynical.
[/QUOTE]

That’s an interesting observation! Thanks for sharing…

so maybe satana and and sa-ta-na-ma are related… and maybe that’s why MA changes the whole thing…

but i still not a big fan of this mantra…cause it reminds me the satana word… there are planty of other mantras and I’m sure you can find one with the same meaning (life, deth, rebirth) which would not evoke negative associations…

[QUOTE=CityMonk;69140]That’s an interesting observation! Thanks for sharing…

so maybe satana and and sa-ta-na-ma are related… and maybe that’s why MA changes the whole thing…

but i still not a big fan of this mantra…cause it reminds me the satana word… there are planty of other mantras and I’m sure you can find one with the same meaning (life, deth, rebirth) which would not evoke negative associations…[/QUOTE]

I could try this one: WAHE GURU, WAHE GURU, WAHE GURU, WAHE JEEO:
“The ecstasy of consciousness is my beloved”

Since the meditation involves switching between four fingers or mudras, i might as well try something else that is four fragments long

Or om mani padme hum

The etymology of Sat Nam meaning SA(birth) TA(life) NA(death) and MA(rebirth) sounds dubious to me, and is probably an invention belonging only to the 3HO tradition.

The actual meaning in Sanskrit of the mantra is ‘Sat nam’ means True name.

The actual meaning according to the Sanskrit dictionary of the syllables are:

SA: He
Ta: No meaning
Na: Not
Ma: Measure(or no)

So it would seem the 3HO breakdown of the mantra is wrong anyway. You should be pronouncing the mantra as SATA NAMA. This is exactly how it is pronounced in the Sikh tradition from where this mantra has been taken from.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;69152]The etymology of Sat Nam meaning SA(birth) TA(life) NA(death) and MA(rebirth) sounds dubious to me, and is probably an invention belonging only to the 3HO tradition.

The actual meaning in Sanskrit of the mantra is ‘Sat nam’ means True name.

The actual meaning according to the Sanskrit dictionary of the syllables are:

SA: He
Ta: No meaning
Na: Not
Ma: Measure(or no)

So it would seem the 3HO breakdown of the mantra is wrong anyway. You should be pronouncing the mantra as SATA NAMA. This is exactly how it is pronounced in the Sikh tradition from where this mantra has been taken from.[/QUOTE]

That is very interesting, I am mostly interested in a 4 fragment mantra due to me being currently focused on a meditation called Kirtan Kriya