Search of Ancient Yogic technique

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#13

Well, first we have to understand what breath is.

Breath is necessary to purify the venous blood from the impurities due to cell decay and other physical causes.

But what if you stop these impurities to oocur in the body ? Then the heart does not have to work to pump the venous blood. Then breath becomes simply unnecessary.

So the problem is: how to stop the cell decay and impurities from occuring in your body ?
That can be done by calm (calmness of the mind) and eating pure foods. In a state of calmness of the mind (meditation included) you really do not become hungry.

In a state of calmness of the mind the cosmic energy is flowing strongly into you, through the medulla oblongata. The more advanced you are in your practice, the more
cosmic energy you can absorb.

Breath is the cord which joins the soul with the body.

#14

Oak333,
In breath we draw in air that does the purification of blood in the lungs as you describe. Cosmic energy is pure prana. Being very subtle it is omnipotent and omnipresent. But,in our body, it remains contaminated in the form of ‘vayus’ and less pure. Even that requires purification.

Pranayama is really aimed at that. It requires conscious intake from cosmic energy in the environment and throwing out of impure vayus. In the initial effort one takes help from the breathing of air and aligns it to the rhythm of prana breathing. In the meditative state, prana rises to rejuvanate chakras so much so that advanced yogis can suspend air-breathing and let pure prana circulation gain its own momentum. So its not more of cosmic energy, but more purification of our prana energy that we seek.

And then this prana-breath becomes the cord connecting physical-astral-causal bodies with the soul.

#15

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;52636]Oak333,
In breath we draw in air that does the purification of blood in the lungs as you describe. Cosmic energy is pure prana. Being very subtle it is omnipotent and omnipresent. But,in our body,[b] it remains contaminated in the form of ‘vayus’ and less pure. Even that requires purification.[/B]

Pranayama is really aimed at that. It requires conscious intake from cosmic energy in the environment and throwing out of [B]impure[/B] vayus. In the initial effort one takes help from the breathing of air and aligns it to the rhythm of prana breathing. In the meditative state, prana rises to rejuvanate chakras so much so that advanced yogis can suspend air-breathing and let pure prana circulation gain its own momentum. So its not more of cosmic energy, but more purification of our prana energy that we seek.

And then this prana-breath becomes the cord connecting physical-astral-causal bodies with the soul.[/QUOTE]

Your “off” on the bold . . .

Most of what I’ve read in books, if not all, is off the mark on Prana / vital energy. The shastras dance around with it and give good hints . . . .

Prana does not collect impurities or need purification ever. Think on this. Infact I would make the subject of vital energy an area of much study.

It is one ‘vital’ energy. Within the subtle body it is the mode of operation which categorizes the ‘prana’ into the various ‘winds’ or ‘circuts’ if you will.

#16

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;52627]reaswaran,

“breath is closely related to thoughts- slowing down your breath slows down the mind”

There are two different methods which lead towards the same phenomenon. The mind and body is like an open stream in which energies are traveling in both directions. As the body is capable of influencing the mind, the mind is also capable of influencing the body.

All of those methods of controlling the breath in various different ways are focused on the first - using the body as a skillful means to awaken certain states of consciousness. It is my own understanding that unless one approaches the yogic sciences as a holistic phenomenon, complete and whole to it’s very end, most of these methods can create far more damage than good. Our system is very complex. And everything is interconnected in such a way that if there is even a small imbalance in one part, it can create an imbalance in all of the other parts. And if you are tampering with one’s system without the proper understanding of the mechanisms of it, the results can be disasterous. Particularly with all of those kinds of techniques which are more focused on controlling the fundamental energies of one’s system. If one is not careful, one can damage oneself even permanently. Because once you start dealing with the essential energies which are the basis of the mind and body, then one’s expansion of consciousness can be accelerated tremendously. Or, it may acheive only the opposite, it may lead you towards an even deeper unconsciousness. What could have been medicine has now become a great poison. This is why usually those kinds of methods have always been transmitted secretly from master to disciple, to ensure that such things would not happen.[/QUOTE]

Agreed Amir. However, the body is the ladder required to reach the top. While it is necessary to reach the state of universal consciousness, after reaching it, the body is not necessary. Many sages retain the body so that they can teach and benfit others. Many of the tantric techniques fall under the category described by you. In view of their power to rapidly push you to realisation , the disciple is under the close scrutiny of the master at all times.

#17

The Scales,
Please add the three prior words to the bold, “in the body”. Prana in its free-wheeling form as vital energy abounds in the universe. But when our body is its receptor our gross and subtle impurities affect prana. Our thought-generation process, the most prominent manifestation of the prana energy within, is the main reason for the contamination. Prana when confined in the body not only gets diluted as vayus but different grades of vayus (vyaan, samaan, udaan, apaan) get confined to various regions of the body, along with prana. The cleansing of the vayus is through a conscious replenishment from the universal prana and that is achieved by pranayama.

Shastras contain great knowledge, but for me yogasutra is one enough to practice deeper and keep experiencing my guru’s teachings. Afterall, prana and energy are words or labels and would mean different things to different minds in different contexts.

#18

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;52636]Oak333,
In breath we draw in air that does the purification of blood in the lungs as you describe. Cosmic energy is pure prana. Being very subtle it is omnipotent and omnipresent. But,in our body, it remains contaminated in the form of ‘vayus’ and less pure. Even that requires purification.

Pranayama is really aimed at that. It requires conscious intake from cosmic energy in the environment and throwing out of impure vayus. In the initial effort one takes help from the breathing of air and aligns it to the rhythm of prana breathing. In the meditative state, prana rises to rejuvanate chakras so much so that advanced yogis can suspend air-breathing and let pure prana circulation gain its own momentum. So its not more of cosmic energy, but more purification of our prana energy that we seek.

And then this prana-breath becomes the cord connecting physical-astral-causal bodies with the soul.[/QUOTE]

Cosmic energy is just another name for prana, used by people less familiar with Indian terminology.

Breath is the cord which joins soul and body-all the time, regardless of your stage of advancement. Obviously though, the more advanced you are the more prana (cosmic energy) you can draw.

By sheer will power, you can draw more prana (cosmic energy) through your medulla oblongata. But you have to develop concentration and will power.
This concentration and will power are helped much by pranayama.

The classic circuit is:

mind (will power)----->pranayama------>body

#19

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;52671]The Scales,
Please add the three prior words to the bold, “in the body”. Prana in its free-wheeling form as vital energy abounds in the universe. But when our body is its receptor our gross and subtle impurities affect prana. Our thought-generation process, the most prominent manifestation of the prana energy within, is the main reason for the contamination. Prana when confined in the body not only gets diluted as vayus but different grades of vayus (vyaan, samaan, udaan, apaan) get confined to various regions of the body, along with prana. The cleansing of the vayus is through a conscious replenishment from the universal prana and that is achieved by pranayama.

Shastras contain great knowledge, but for me yogasutra is one enough to practice deeper and keep experiencing my guru’s teachings. Afterall, prana and energy are words or labels and would mean different things to different minds in different contexts.[/QUOTE]

Prana - whether in the body or not - is incorruptible.

#20

“Cosmic energy is just another name for prana”

To call it “cosmic energy”, although it is correct, is also almost useless. There is nothing in existence which is not cosmic energy. When it has been spoken of “prana”, what one is referring to is not some particular force, but a range of various energies at a subtle level. Just as energy may manifest as electricity, magnetism, electromagnetism, strong force, weak force, and so on, the same is the case at a subtle level. Neither are any of these energies separate from the source of existence. That is why to come to know of the original nature of “prana” is one and the same as having seen into the original nature of existence itself.

#21

“Prana - whether in the body or not - is incorruptible.”

It is and it is not. And if you want, anywhere else inbetween.

Everything in existence can be seen from almost infinite number of angles and perspectives, all a finger pointing to the moon. What is far more useful is to use a certain way of thinking, not as a dogma or doctrine, but as a skillful means towards one’s awakening. Otherwise, it is like trying to grasp the vastness of space into one’s fist. Raise even a thought or word about it, and you immediately fall into error.

#22

rizee,

“can you share your methodology??”

I do not have any methodology, because I have never been interested in trying to hold the breath for it’s own sake. Neither do I use much breath control in meditation. It is simply that depending on which state of consciousness you are in, the breath tends to go through a number of changes, as does the quality of the breath. The deeper the samadhi, the more subtle the breath becomes. So my own experience is just accidental, that as a result of meditation one can witness changes in the breath.

But if one wants to use the sensation of the breath as an object of meditation, one can even sharpen one’s awareness to the point of coming to the link which connects the breath to the body. It is through a particular nadi in the subtle body. The nadis are not simply channels through which energy flows, they each have a particular function.

Just as you can stimulate various different chakras through concentration, the same is the case with the nadis, which are far more subtle then chakras. The “chakras” are just a collection of nadis which come together to form a bundle of energy. So it takes much more sensitivity and awareness to stimulate the nadis than the chakras, because the chakras are just a collection of nadis. But if you can manage it, you can come to control specific parts of your system just through this, although unless one is using such methods as means towards one’s enlightenment, it is more or less useless.

#23

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;52696]“Cosmic energy is just another name for prana”

To call it “cosmic energy”, although it is correct, is also almost useless. There is nothing in existence which is not cosmic energy. When it has been spoken of “prana”, what one is referring to is not some particular force, but a range of various energies at a subtle level. Just as energy may manifest as electricity, magnetism, electromagnetism, strong force, weak force, and so on, the same is the case at a subtle level. Neither are any of these energies separate from the source of existence. That is why to come to know of the original nature of “prana” is one and the same as having seen into the original nature of existence itself.[/QUOTE]

It takes too much time to say it all. Just read the writings of Yogananda. He uses cosmic energy and prana alternatively, and he explains why.

The lineage of Yogananda gurus:

Babaji—Lahiri Mahasaya----Sri Yukteswar----Yogananda

It takes a lot to contradict them.

#24

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;52697]“Prana - whether in the body or not - is incorruptible.”

It is and it is not. And if you want, anywhere else inbetween.

Everything in existence can be seen from almost infinite number of angles and perspectives, all a finger pointing to the moon. What is far more useful is to use a certain way of thinking, not as a dogma or doctrine, but as a skillful means towards one’s awakening. Otherwise, it is like trying to grasp the vastness of space into one’s fist. Raise even a thought or word about it, and you immediately fall into error.[/QUOTE]

From any angle, from any view it is incorruptible.

This we call truth.

Such as the sun shining. The moon spinning. It is so.

#25

oak,

“Just read the writings of Yogananda. He uses cosmic energy and prana alternatively, and he explains why”

That is fine, I have no problem in calling it “cosmic energy”. But one should not cling to our words and descriptions of the reality as though it were the reality itself. No matter how brilliant one’s intelligence or expression may be, our words and descriptions are always dimensions apart from the reality.

#26

The Scales,

“From any angle, from any view it is incorruptible”

If it were, to put it to use would be an impossibility. But call it corruptible, incorruptible, or anything else that one likes - it is not going to be of any help as far as one’s liberation is concerned. Setting aside ideas and interpretations, as a device in one’s hands, one simply has to know how to use it.

#27

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;52740]The Scales,

"From any angle, from any view it is incorruptible"

If it were, to put it to use would be an impossibility.

But call it corruptible, incorruptible, or anything else that one likes - it is not going to be of any help as far as one's liberation is concerned. Setting aside ideas and interpretations, as a device in one's hands, one simply has to know how to use it.[/QUOTE]

Wrong again. I.E. False. As in not true. Which is in line with most of the other bologna you compose on this forum. You don't have one single proper clue about it . . .

"it is not going to be of any help as far as one's liberation is concerned."

SQUAWK. What does that have to do with the topic or conversation?

SQUAWK. "Polly want a cracker!"

#28

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;52739]oak,

“Just read the writings of Yogananda. He uses cosmic energy and prana alternatively, and he explains why”

That is fine, I have no problem in calling it “cosmic energy”. But one should not cling to our words and descriptions of the reality as though it were the reality itself. No matter how brilliant one’s intelligence or expression may be, our words and descriptions are always dimensions apart from the reality.[/QUOTE]

Words might not be able to describe the reality in its finest detail. I agree with that.

But words are still necessary to communicate. How else can I read the writings of Yogananda, without words ? You cannot describe God by words but
you can read -or listen - how to practice yoga.

#29

Oak,

Of course, the words are necessary. But a problem arises once one forms an attachment to the words, and from those descriptions, becomes attached to an image in the mind which is entirely imaginary. That is why it is the responsibility of the disciple who is practicing a discipline to keep a close watch of his own workings of the mind, from moment to moment. Delusion is never a problem in itself, has never been a problem in itself, but when one is unaware of one’s delusion, this is what tends to create problems.

#30

I think so we have detracted from original topic.
Actually my question is still unanswered. You all are saying that holding breath is not important in smadhi. but as I have read that this was the specialty of ancient yoga. I have read the stories of yogis which can hold their breathing for days and months during samdhi. My question is all I have heard or read are just stories and nothing practical. If it is practical, and not just stories, then what are the exercises those people have with them.This was the basic question I have asked. If you people don’t mind then I would like to say ancient yogis have some something with them either we don’t know or we don’t understand it or we don’t have. My believe is that it was not just philosophy, it was something reality which turned them into great yogis.

#31

rize,

You do not need to hold the breath to enter into samadhi, and there are many yogic methods which do not focus upon control of the breath. If you look into the kind of meditation which is often done amongst the Buddhists, there is not much emphasis given at all upon control of the breath. In fact, that is something that is essential in Anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing) - not to control the breath in any particular way, but to allow it to function according to it’s naturalness, you allow the breath to flow naturally without forcing it in any way. The approach is very relaxed. And you can enter into samadhi through this approach just as well as any of those other methods which focus upon control of the breath.

Seeing this, it is logical enough for one to realize that what determines whether one enters into samadhi or not has very little to do with how you are controlling the breath. The breath can be used, but control of the breath is not the essential thing. There are many people who control the breath and do not enter into samadhi, and there is no garuntee that just by something mechanical like holding the breath, that samadhi will arise.

“My believe is that it was not just philosophy, it was something reality which turned them into great yogis.”

Yes. Tremendous one-pointed attention in the present.

#32

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;47508]There is tremendous misinformation about ‘holding breath’. It is a weak interpretation of yoga-sutra. It is not advisable to hold breath for longer duration, especially by those suffering from high BP.

Breathing itself is largely misunderstood. The real breathing one needs to do is that of prana energy, absorbing it from the cosmic energy and releasing contaminated prana in the environment. Since, ordinarily we don’t know how to do that kind of breathing of prana, we work on the breathing of air. Prana piggybacks on air.

The way one should go is to learn rhythmic breathing. Inhaling and exhaling of air in certain rhythm synchronizes the flow of air with prana and offers initial momentum. With advanced practice, we learn to control prana breathing itself. At a very advanced stage, one acquires so much control that body functions receive prana directly as closed-loop cycles of prana start running along the chakra path. ONLY THEN, one can stop breathing of air as it becomes redundant.

So, yogis reach a stage after years of practice, where breathing (air) is not required for a while. Compared to that, the so called forced ‘holding of breath’ is a self-imposed physical torture.[/QUOTE]

Indian sayings which are used in every day life, have passed enumerable generations. when one dies it is said ‘his prana has left him’.
in Hindi “uske prana nikal gaye”.
the last act a person does before dying is to breathe out.'
If prana was to be inhaled then one will not die as he still has prana left from the previous breath which will keep him alive.
to quote HYP 2-3 'As long as there is breath (prana) in the body, there is life. death is departure of breath (prana). therefore one should restrain breath.[prana has been referred as vayu, vata, anila]
to quote gheranda samhita 5-89. so long as prana remains in the body there is no death.
Pranaym is Prana+ya+ma. Ya= to bring forth and ma= to nurture. pranayama is to bring forth the prana and to nurture it. It is not to bring-in from outside.Nurturing is done by with holding it, that is Kumbhaka.
as BKS Ayengar writes - pranayam stores prana in the seven chakras, of the spine, so it can be discharged as and when necessary to deal with upheavals of life ( foreword to translation of HYp by Elsy becherer)

normal breathing cycle during pranayam, as recommended in various ancient yoga literature, is 1:4:2, (if inhalation is 1 unit of time than kumbhaka is 4 times and expiration is 2 units of time). Now if prana was to be inhaled than this timing should ideally be maximum for inhalation so as to bring in large amount of prana which actually is not so. This again shows that prana is within and not inhaled from outside.
gheranda samhita 5-86 to87-
"…the ordinary length of the air current when expired is 12 digits (one digit is one finger width, 12 digits=9 inches), in singing its length becomes 16 digits; in eating it is 20 digits; in walking it is 24 digits; in sleep it is 30 digits; in copulation it is 36 digits(that’s the reason for brahmacharya) and in physical exercise it is more than that.(both hyp and gs advises a yogi to refrain from rigorous exercises and any action which increases the breath)
GS 5-88.-
"by decreasing the natural length of expired current from 12 digits to less and less, there takes place increase in life; and by increasing the current, there is decrease in life.
More the volume of air going out in out-breath, more is prana wasted out along with it. That is why expired air is always warm even in sub zero temperature as it contains wasted pranic energy and not because it passes through constrained passage.
it is for this reason that all asanas in yoga are static and savasa is performed frequently to normalise the breathing.suraya namaskar is the only dynamic exercise which finds no mention in any ancient literature and was put in practice around beginning of last century as warm up exercise and not yogic exercise perse.
perfection in Khechari mudra may make a person go without food or air for a very long time. Case of hari das is often quoted frequently who under supervision of British officers and under strict scrutiny of maharaja ranjeet singh remained under ground for a number of days.