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Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#21

“Prana - whether in the body or not - is incorruptible.”

It is and it is not. And if you want, anywhere else inbetween.

Everything in existence can be seen from almost infinite number of angles and perspectives, all a finger pointing to the moon. What is far more useful is to use a certain way of thinking, not as a dogma or doctrine, but as a skillful means towards one’s awakening. Otherwise, it is like trying to grasp the vastness of space into one’s fist. Raise even a thought or word about it, and you immediately fall into error.

#22

rizee,

“can you share your methodology??”

I do not have any methodology, because I have never been interested in trying to hold the breath for it’s own sake. Neither do I use much breath control in meditation. It is simply that depending on which state of consciousness you are in, the breath tends to go through a number of changes, as does the quality of the breath. The deeper the samadhi, the more subtle the breath becomes. So my own experience is just accidental, that as a result of meditation one can witness changes in the breath.

But if one wants to use the sensation of the breath as an object of meditation, one can even sharpen one’s awareness to the point of coming to the link which connects the breath to the body. It is through a particular nadi in the subtle body. The nadis are not simply channels through which energy flows, they each have a particular function.

Just as you can stimulate various different chakras through concentration, the same is the case with the nadis, which are far more subtle then chakras. The “chakras” are just a collection of nadis which come together to form a bundle of energy. So it takes much more sensitivity and awareness to stimulate the nadis than the chakras, because the chakras are just a collection of nadis. But if you can manage it, you can come to control specific parts of your system just through this, although unless one is using such methods as means towards one’s enlightenment, it is more or less useless.

#23

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;52696]“Cosmic energy is just another name for prana”

To call it “cosmic energy”, although it is correct, is also almost useless. There is nothing in existence which is not cosmic energy. When it has been spoken of “prana”, what one is referring to is not some particular force, but a range of various energies at a subtle level. Just as energy may manifest as electricity, magnetism, electromagnetism, strong force, weak force, and so on, the same is the case at a subtle level. Neither are any of these energies separate from the source of existence. That is why to come to know of the original nature of “prana” is one and the same as having seen into the original nature of existence itself.[/QUOTE]

It takes too much time to say it all. Just read the writings of Yogananda. He uses cosmic energy and prana alternatively, and he explains why.

The lineage of Yogananda gurus:

Babaji—Lahiri Mahasaya----Sri Yukteswar----Yogananda

It takes a lot to contradict them.

#24

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;52697]“Prana - whether in the body or not - is incorruptible.”

It is and it is not. And if you want, anywhere else inbetween.

Everything in existence can be seen from almost infinite number of angles and perspectives, all a finger pointing to the moon. What is far more useful is to use a certain way of thinking, not as a dogma or doctrine, but as a skillful means towards one’s awakening. Otherwise, it is like trying to grasp the vastness of space into one’s fist. Raise even a thought or word about it, and you immediately fall into error.[/QUOTE]

From any angle, from any view it is incorruptible.

This we call truth.

Such as the sun shining. The moon spinning. It is so.

#25

oak,

“Just read the writings of Yogananda. He uses cosmic energy and prana alternatively, and he explains why”

That is fine, I have no problem in calling it “cosmic energy”. But one should not cling to our words and descriptions of the reality as though it were the reality itself. No matter how brilliant one’s intelligence or expression may be, our words and descriptions are always dimensions apart from the reality.

#26

The Scales,

“From any angle, from any view it is incorruptible”

If it were, to put it to use would be an impossibility. But call it corruptible, incorruptible, or anything else that one likes - it is not going to be of any help as far as one’s liberation is concerned. Setting aside ideas and interpretations, as a device in one’s hands, one simply has to know how to use it.

#27

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;52740]The Scales,

"From any angle, from any view it is incorruptible"

If it were, to put it to use would be an impossibility.

But call it corruptible, incorruptible, or anything else that one likes - it is not going to be of any help as far as one's liberation is concerned. Setting aside ideas and interpretations, as a device in one's hands, one simply has to know how to use it.[/QUOTE]

Wrong again. I.E. False. As in not true. Which is in line with most of the other bologna you compose on this forum. You don't have one single proper clue about it . . .

"it is not going to be of any help as far as one's liberation is concerned."

SQUAWK. What does that have to do with the topic or conversation?

SQUAWK. "Polly want a cracker!"

#28

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;52739]oak,

“Just read the writings of Yogananda. He uses cosmic energy and prana alternatively, and he explains why”

That is fine, I have no problem in calling it “cosmic energy”. But one should not cling to our words and descriptions of the reality as though it were the reality itself. No matter how brilliant one’s intelligence or expression may be, our words and descriptions are always dimensions apart from the reality.[/QUOTE]

Words might not be able to describe the reality in its finest detail. I agree with that.

But words are still necessary to communicate. How else can I read the writings of Yogananda, without words ? You cannot describe God by words but
you can read -or listen - how to practice yoga.

#29

Oak,

Of course, the words are necessary. But a problem arises once one forms an attachment to the words, and from those descriptions, becomes attached to an image in the mind which is entirely imaginary. That is why it is the responsibility of the disciple who is practicing a discipline to keep a close watch of his own workings of the mind, from moment to moment. Delusion is never a problem in itself, has never been a problem in itself, but when one is unaware of one’s delusion, this is what tends to create problems.

#30

I think so we have detracted from original topic.
Actually my question is still unanswered. You all are saying that holding breath is not important in smadhi. but as I have read that this was the specialty of ancient yoga. I have read the stories of yogis which can hold their breathing for days and months during samdhi. My question is all I have heard or read are just stories and nothing practical. If it is practical, and not just stories, then what are the exercises those people have with them.This was the basic question I have asked. If you people don’t mind then I would like to say ancient yogis have some something with them either we don’t know or we don’t understand it or we don’t have. My believe is that it was not just philosophy, it was something reality which turned them into great yogis.

#31

rize,

You do not need to hold the breath to enter into samadhi, and there are many yogic methods which do not focus upon control of the breath. If you look into the kind of meditation which is often done amongst the Buddhists, there is not much emphasis given at all upon control of the breath. In fact, that is something that is essential in Anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing) - not to control the breath in any particular way, but to allow it to function according to it’s naturalness, you allow the breath to flow naturally without forcing it in any way. The approach is very relaxed. And you can enter into samadhi through this approach just as well as any of those other methods which focus upon control of the breath.

Seeing this, it is logical enough for one to realize that what determines whether one enters into samadhi or not has very little to do with how you are controlling the breath. The breath can be used, but control of the breath is not the essential thing. There are many people who control the breath and do not enter into samadhi, and there is no garuntee that just by something mechanical like holding the breath, that samadhi will arise.

“My believe is that it was not just philosophy, it was something reality which turned them into great yogis.”

Yes. Tremendous one-pointed attention in the present.

#32

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;47508]There is tremendous misinformation about ‘holding breath’. It is a weak interpretation of yoga-sutra. It is not advisable to hold breath for longer duration, especially by those suffering from high BP.

Breathing itself is largely misunderstood. The real breathing one needs to do is that of prana energy, absorbing it from the cosmic energy and releasing contaminated prana in the environment. Since, ordinarily we don’t know how to do that kind of breathing of prana, we work on the breathing of air. Prana piggybacks on air.

The way one should go is to learn rhythmic breathing. Inhaling and exhaling of air in certain rhythm synchronizes the flow of air with prana and offers initial momentum. With advanced practice, we learn to control prana breathing itself. At a very advanced stage, one acquires so much control that body functions receive prana directly as closed-loop cycles of prana start running along the chakra path. ONLY THEN, one can stop breathing of air as it becomes redundant.

So, yogis reach a stage after years of practice, where breathing (air) is not required for a while. Compared to that, the so called forced ‘holding of breath’ is a self-imposed physical torture.[/QUOTE]

Indian sayings which are used in every day life, have passed enumerable generations. when one dies it is said ‘his prana has left him’.
in Hindi “uske prana nikal gaye”.
the last act a person does before dying is to breathe out.'
If prana was to be inhaled then one will not die as he still has prana left from the previous breath which will keep him alive.
to quote HYP 2-3 'As long as there is breath (prana) in the body, there is life. death is departure of breath (prana). therefore one should restrain breath.[prana has been referred as vayu, vata, anila]
to quote gheranda samhita 5-89. so long as prana remains in the body there is no death.
Pranaym is Prana+ya+ma. Ya= to bring forth and ma= to nurture. pranayama is to bring forth the prana and to nurture it. It is not to bring-in from outside.Nurturing is done by with holding it, that is Kumbhaka.
as BKS Ayengar writes - pranayam stores prana in the seven chakras, of the spine, so it can be discharged as and when necessary to deal with upheavals of life ( foreword to translation of HYp by Elsy becherer)

normal breathing cycle during pranayam, as recommended in various ancient yoga literature, is 1:4:2, (if inhalation is 1 unit of time than kumbhaka is 4 times and expiration is 2 units of time). Now if prana was to be inhaled than this timing should ideally be maximum for inhalation so as to bring in large amount of prana which actually is not so. This again shows that prana is within and not inhaled from outside.
gheranda samhita 5-86 to87-
"…the ordinary length of the air current when expired is 12 digits (one digit is one finger width, 12 digits=9 inches), in singing its length becomes 16 digits; in eating it is 20 digits; in walking it is 24 digits; in sleep it is 30 digits; in copulation it is 36 digits(that’s the reason for brahmacharya) and in physical exercise it is more than that.(both hyp and gs advises a yogi to refrain from rigorous exercises and any action which increases the breath)
GS 5-88.-
"by decreasing the natural length of expired current from 12 digits to less and less, there takes place increase in life; and by increasing the current, there is decrease in life.
More the volume of air going out in out-breath, more is prana wasted out along with it. That is why expired air is always warm even in sub zero temperature as it contains wasted pranic energy and not because it passes through constrained passage.
it is for this reason that all asanas in yoga are static and savasa is performed frequently to normalise the breathing.suraya namaskar is the only dynamic exercise which finds no mention in any ancient literature and was put in practice around beginning of last century as warm up exercise and not yogic exercise perse.
perfection in Khechari mudra may make a person go without food or air for a very long time. Case of hari das is often quoted frequently who under supervision of British officers and under strict scrutiny of maharaja ranjeet singh remained under ground for a number of days.

#33

Hi Prasad,

You have yourself put “breath (prana)” and throughout the narrative, also mentioned prana as separate from breath. For example, you quote BKS as ‘pranayama stoes prana in seven chakras’ or later say, ‘prana energy is wasted’. Where does it come from or how is it replenished?

‘Breathing’ is a process, air or prana is a substance. Upon death, breathing of air stops but prana continues to remain in the body for a while. In fact, the cremation process ends when finally prana escapes from the top of the head.

Breathing of air in and out is a function of expanding and contracting chest and the upper abdomen. It is not the other way around. What moves the chest and abdomen, even when we are not consciously doing it? Prana energy. Please read what Swami Vivekananda says in Raja-Yoga.

?Chitta (the mindstuff) is the engine which draws in prana from the surroundings and manufactures from prana all the vital forces in the body that run through the nervous system and keep it preserved and also other forces like thoughts and will.? (Swami Vivekananda, pg 151)

?When the posture has been conquered, then the motion of the prana is to be broken and controlled, and thus we come to pranayama; the controlling of the vital forces of the body. Prana is not breath, though it is usually so translated. It is the sum total of the cosmic energy. It is the energy that is in each body, and its most apparent manifestation is the motion of the lungs. This motion is caused by the prana drawing in the breath and is what we seek to control in pranayama. We begin by controlling the breath, as the easiest way of controlling the prana.? (Vivekananda, pg 214)

From very valuable information you have collected from a variety of sources needs to be distilled into simple principles that we can practice.

#34

There is a tremendous difference between what has been called “prana” and the breath. Because when we speak of prana, we are speaking of a whole range of subtle energies which are flowing, not just through the body and mind, but throughout the whole existence -there is nothing in existence which is not made of prana. That is why, there are a million and one different ways to absorb prana into your system - the kind of food that you eat, the liquids that you drink, even the amount of sunlight that you receive. In fact, the energy of the sun is one of the most vital sources of prana, there are even methods to absorb prana from the sun through gazing with the eyes open into the sun - but on a day when the sun is not so penetrating, otherwise it may create damage to your eyes.

When you are using the breath as a means to absorb prana, it is not because of the breath itself, but because of the energies which are contained within the breath. And through using the breath as an instrument - one can influence the way the prana moves throughout one’s system. Because the pranic energies are also the foundation for the workings of the mind and body - if you control prana, you can obtain control over the mind and body in various different ways. In fact, any state of consciousness that you awaken is also a state of prana - and depending on which kind of samadhi has entered into your experience, the pranas are going to move in your system differently.

#35

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;53610]Hi Prasad,

You have yourself put “breath (prana)” and throughout the narrative, also mentioned prana as separate from breath. For example, you quote BKS as ‘pranayama stoes prana in seven chakras’ or later say, ‘prana energy is wasted’. Where does it come from or how is it replenished?

‘Breathing’ is a process, air or prana is a substance. Upon death, breathing of air stops but prana continues to remain in the body for a while. In fact, the cremation process ends when finally prana escapes from the top of the head.

Breathing of air in and out is a function of expanding and contracting chest and the upper abdomen. It is not the other way around. What moves the chest and abdomen, even when we are not consciously doing it? Prana energy. Please read what Swami Vivekananda says in Raja-Yoga.

?Chitta (the mindstuff) is the engine which draws in prana from the surroundings and manufactures from prana all the vital forces in the body that run through the nervous system and keep it preserved and also other forces like thoughts and will.? (Swami Vivekananda, pg 151)

?When the posture has been conquered, then the motion of the prana is to be broken and controlled, and thus we come to pranayama; the controlling of the vital forces of the body. Prana is not breath, though it is usually so translated. It is the sum total of the cosmic energy. It is the energy that is in each body, and its most apparent manifestation is the motion of the lungs. This motion is caused by the prana drawing in the breath and is what we seek to control in pranayama. We begin by controlling the breath, as the easiest way of controlling the prana.? (Vivekananda, pg 214)

From very valuable information you have collected from a variety of sources needs to be distilled into simple principles that we can practice.[/QUOTE]

Readings of your various posts in different threads reveal that you are pretty advanced in your yogic endeavours with a clear head and most importantly, with ego in check. You have a very high understanding of Patanjali implying ?Raja yoga? and to certain extent the Shankhya system. You also do not resort to fist fight and arm wrestling with other posters. My regards to you. But Hatha yoga, my home ground, is different ball game altogether. I am not a master word smith like you, that?s why I don?t post often.

First coming to prana not leaving the body even after death, please Refer to Goraksha Paddhati (trans- Georg Feuerstein) 1.37-?Dhananjaya is all pervasive and does not even quit the corpse…? All other pranas leave the body and then the death arrives. Remember what I said… The last act of a person is to breathe out. Dhananjya is responsible for decaying the body, nature does not leave its job half done. [Gorkh nath was the first disciple of Matsyendra nath who laid the foundation of Hatha yoga and started the Natha sampradaya]

In post #4 you wrote ?.. Prana piggybacks on air.
… Inhaling and exhaling of air in certain rhythm synchronizes the flow of air with prana and offers initial momentum. With advanced practice, we learn to control prana breathing itself.?

And in post #33 you say Chitta (the mind stuff is the engine which draws in prana from the surroundings and manufactures from prana …

Please make up your mind first whether prana piggy rides the breath or citta draws it from the surroundings. DO I have to remind you of the second aphorism of patanjali sutra? If Chitta is supposed to be denuded of all varraties and mind becomes no mind in the state of Samadhi than how Chitta does keeps drawing prana from surroundings.

?..Breathing of air in and out is a function of expanding and contracting chest and the upper abdomen. …?

There I agree with you partially.
Shall we talk about a foetus? His lung works, he keeps sucking the fluid in his lung rather than air. How does prana piggy ride his breath where there is no breath, and mind you he is not trained as you say about pranic breathing. You will agree with me that a lump of flesh is not alive till prana is there, then how does he smiles, sucks his thumb, blinks and flinches if poked by doctors. Which surrounding does his Chitta draw his prana from? You might infer that he sucks prana from his mother, is it so. Think over it.

You say again ?..It is the energy (prana) that is in each body…?

Here I agree with you 1000%.
That?s what I meant telling in my previous post.
Vivekananda was a philosopher and an orator par excellence and a Raj Yogi to boot but he was not great at Hatha yoga system. He was not very great in translating pantanjali either. He does not seem to have referred the commentaries of Vyasa, vacaspati Misra, sankra, Bhoja raja, Vijnana bhiksu or hariharananda while translating and commenting on patanjali.

In his work on Raja Yoga he refers to Universal Prana and psychic prana. Please read it carefully. And I agree with his interpretation of Prana manifesting in all forms of energies and akasha manifesting as matter.

Patanjali (II-13) ?as long as the root [of the klesas] exists, it fructifies as type of birth, span of life, and life experiences [of an individual].
Let me consider only one of the above three that is span of life.
Parm Hans swami Ygananda is quite popular in this forums, let me quote him from his A of Y chapter 26-?..The restless monkey breathes at the rate of 32 times a minute, in contrast to man?s average of 18 times. The elephant, tortoise, snake, and other creatures noted for their longevity have a respiratory rate that is less than man?s. The giant tortoise, for instance, which may attain the age of three hundred years, breathes only 4 times a minute?

The above implies breathe slower and live longer. Lesser you breathe lesser prana you waste. Increase the time of kumbhak, allowing the brought forward , inside resident prana to dissipate completely inside the body or being stored in the chakras than to waste it in outgoing breathe. Shiva Samhita mentions holding the breathe to 3 hours (3-53). This is the time for the brought forward prana to completely settle inside the body. This also results in decreasing the breathing rate substantially.

Every person is preordained with fixed number of breath in his life time and not fixed number of years to live. Hatha Yogis devised the system to reduce the breathing cycle thereby increasing the life in number of years. Time is relative; remember the twin brother paradox, one going in space and the other reaming on earth. Even identical twins that have the same genome don?t die at the same time.

I don?t have to quote Hatha literature to tell you that after the kundalini pierces the three granthies in the sushmana, the prana follows it in susmana. It is also known that kundalini resides in a kanda in muladhar chakra (science of pranayam by shivananda). Kanda is closed and the mouth of susmana is blocked by kundalini. The Ida and pringla also originate form same muladhar chakra and ending at left and right nostril. If prana has to follow kundalini then it must be resident in muladhar chakra, a given amount of prana to every person depending upon his life span, being brought forward in either ida or pringla.
(One may also refer to following:-
Srimad bhagwatam, various yoga Upanishads like yoga kundalini, hansa, tejubinu and the like, Brahma sutra, prasna up,aita up, katha up, swet up, brhad up and not to forget serpent power and sakti and sakta by sir john woodroffe)

#36

“Which surrounding does his Chitta draw his prana from?”

Neither one rules over the other - consciousness is not separate from it’s energies, neither are it’s energies separate from consciousness. To try and separate one from the other as though one is subordinate is just like trying to separate water from ice, or the fragrance from the lotus.

"Every person is preordained with fixed number of breath in his life time "

Other than the realities which are functioning in the present, nothing is determined, and there is no saying in which direction the stream is going to move even in the next moment.

#37

Prasad,
Thanks for your elaborate response. Ramakrishna Paramhansa once said, “instead of digging many wells, dig one deep enough until you find water.” With limited life-time, huge un-learning to do, a corrupt mind and the karma debts, I have chosen to do practice and debate only when it helps someone in his\her practice. I understand something about Raja Yoga of Sage Patanjali. I respect all that you said, since I know nothing about it.

#38

Dear all,
Kindly visit mahayoga.org
It is difficult and needs guidance of master to preactice HathYoga and pranayam,Asanas etc.If not done properly there may be ill effects or disorders.
However, in Siddhayoga or Mahayoga everything is ready made and you just need to sit by closing eyes. Everything will be GOD done. Necessary pranayam,asan,bandh,murdra,mantra or any yogic experinces needed for aspirants progress will be done by mother energy. I personally practiced Reiki,Chakra meditation for long time.But after getting initiated into Siddhayoga/Mahayoga I realize how childish were my attempts to think and act intellectually to achieve samadhi or equi poise state.
Just by wish or touch of Guruji …dormat Kundalini gets awakened with such ease.And real journey starts.
Rest of efforts are all preparatory activities like we collect map,clothes,food and vehicle etc. before journey.Siddhayoga is cheapest ( no cost), simplest( everything is done automatically) and highest(Shakti is never inactive…it starts cleaning process as soon as activated ans never sleeps till reaches the crown chakra).
You may want to really test the nectar than really reading and trying to prepare nectar.
May mother Energy or Kundalini bless you all with her divine grace and make your life nectarous.
The experiences to individual may vary but once awaken Kundalini does not stop till she reaches or meets Shiva or GOD or KRISHAN OR BUDDHA OR JESUS OR ALLAH …whatever name you want to give it to.
Always at his feet,
Jayant Sande.

#39

jayansande,

“But after getting initiated into Siddhayoga/Mahayoga I realize how childish were my attempts to think and act intellectually to achieve samadhi or equi poise state.”

What is far more childish is to assume that this is a sit and do nothing phenomenon. The fact is that unless one is willing to initiate tremendous effort and energy towards coming to one’s awakening, one is going to remain as you are. If you have been suffering and do nothing, that suffering is certain to continue. If one has been living out of unconsciousness, that unconsciousness is going to continue. Man’s system is very deeply programmed, just like a computer or a machine. And one’s conditioning is so rigid, and so stubborn, that it is going to resist transformation at almost any cost. If you take even one step outside of your comfort zone, now everything within you starts declaring to retreat, you are entering into the unknown. And man is far more interested in comfort and security rather than coming to the Truth.

“Everything will be GOD done.”

Not even a million gods can destroy the suffering which you yourself have created. You have created your own sufferings, and as you have created the problem, only you can dissolve the problem. And at this pace, seeing how the majority of humanity is in a deep sleep, continuously destroying both himself and the Earth, not to change would simply mean extinction. Even God will not be able to prevent it.

“Just by wish or touch of Guruji …dormat Kundalini gets awakened with such ease”

That is tremendously dangerous. If you receive something which you are not prepared for, it can only create far more damage than it can good. And even if your mind and body is prepared for such a thing, to awaken Kundalini does not mean that you have come to any penetrating insight into existence. Without wisdom, you may be deceiving yourself with all kinds of things, but you remain more or less in a deep unconsciousness.

#40

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;54207]jayansande,

“But after getting initiated into Siddhayoga/Mahayoga I realize how childish were my attempts to think and act intellectually to achieve samadhi or equi poise state.”

What is far more childish is to assume that this is a sit and do nothing phenomenon. The fact is that unless one is willing to initiate tremendous effort and energy towards coming to one’s awakening, one is going to remain as you are. If you have been suffering and do nothing, that suffering is certain to continue.
[/QUOTE]

Reason number 324,
The Pit gets deeper.