Severe erector spinae imbalance

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#1

My erector spinaes are of significantly different sizes. I was instructed by a fysio therapist to do 2 exercises in order to create better balance.

One is standing holding a weight in my left hand, bending sideways and returning to neutral,

the other is lying on my stomach lifting one arm and the opposing leg.

These exercises don’t work well for me. After having done the first one I feel strained and overworked in other muscles that I did not have problems with before.

When doing the second one I can’t figure out how to isolate the right side. I constantly feel that the left side is doing all the work as always, no matter what I do.

Does anyone have suggestions on better ways to even out this imbalance?

I am planning to see Mukunda to get instructions and suitable poses for my condition, but in the meantime any help is much appreciated.

EDIT: I am stretching the left(large) side as best I can

//David
Sweden

#2

What is the origin of this David?
It’s nurture not nature, no?

#3

[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;29779]What is the origin of this David?
It’s nurture not nature, no?[/QUOTE]

I did sports as a teenager, to much snowboarding and never any stretching. My thigh muscles both front and back ended up being severely shortened and tense with knee problems as consequence. I stopped snowboarding but wasn’t smart enough to fully follow through with the stretching exercises, the knee problems got better from not doing sports.

And finally, I suppose, after walking with these muscles shortened has created other imbalances, the erector spinae being the most obvious one, the scoliosis and the uneven sacrum and pelvis came with the whole deal too I suppose. :frowning:

#4

Hello David,

The good news is this: you say you have a functional scoliosis - caused by snow boarding. This is much easier to correct that a structural scoliosis, one that is in your genes. So good for you.

Then you say that you are confused about the muscles employed in your physiotherapy exercises. The first person you should address with these questions is … your physiotherapist, because (s)he has the enormous advantage of having seen you in person.

From a yogic point of view, this confusion can be cleared up by aligning mind, breath and body. You could do some simple movements in which you combine: awareness of muscles contracting, awareness of muscles stretching and awareness of the breath. I would suggest that you do movement JFS-17 from from Mukunda Stiles’ [COLOR=purple][FONT=Verdana]joint freeing series[/FONT][/COLOR]. Move gently, slowly and coordinate the movements with your breath. Always stay within the range of motion that does not cause discomfort, let alone pain. Inhale, sit tall (extended spine). Exhale bend sideways. Inhale sit tall. Exhale bend sideways in the other direction. Keep you body in a vertical plane as if you were sitting with your back against a window pane. Elbows move in the direction of the hips. Shoulders are low. Moving slowly will allow you to maintain awareness of the back muscles. Do 6 reps (=6 left+6 right). If you like this, you can do all of the JFS series with awareness. Then bring this awareness to your physiotherapist’s exercises.

#5

It is odd to have an asymmetry from the things you describe. The front and back of your thighs, yes, one side of your spine, not so much. So my curiosity is about what in your living has pulled you away from center. This is a rhetorical question that you do not need to respond to publicly, however it would be incredibly fruitful if you would go inside and see if you can ferret that out.

gordon

#6

[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;29810]It is odd to have an asymmetry from the things you describe. The front and back of your thighs, yes, one side of your spine, not so much. So my curiosity is about what in your living has pulled you away from center. This is a rhetorical question that you do not need to respond to publicly, however it would be incredibly fruitful if you would go inside and see if you can ferret that out.

gordon[/QUOTE]

the roots of this problems go back very far, and it was actually my sister who told me one day when I was 15 I think that I didn’t look very straight. I had no idea until then and I certainly had no emotional problems at that time. I was happy. So I don’t think in this case that it has a lot to do with mindsets.

When my girlfriend who had been with me for several years left me a year ago, that’s the first time that I felt really bad on the inside so to speak. At this point I had been walking with a 1,5 cm heel lift for a couple of years since the doctors of course thought that my legs were of uneven length. So one year ago this problem started to really affect me as a person and it is absolutely the single biggest concern that I’ve ever had.

#7

[QUOTE=sukhashanti;30014]You can get back with the info about the short leg later. Ive seen the x-rays on the other thread…nice fat discs thats good news.

Well yes the scoliosis is there to stay but then the human body is not symmetrical anyway.

Unfortunately the generally conservative opinion given already in the other threads that you need personal expert guidance is correct. That is if you want yoga to provide solutions that suits your particular body.

But do remember there is much more to Yoga Therapy than just stretching and strengthening muscles.

I would say begin with repetitive flexion and extension (forward and backward bending) done with good hip stability. This will bring your body into line the easy way going with the flow rather than against it.

Do not only approach the therapy by working in the side plane. Hitting it head on would not be advised.

Some side bending Ok but it has to be integrated into a much larger multi-plane program otherwise your body will just distort in some other more complex way.

At the moment your scoliosis looks pretty comfortable, there are no counter rotations in the individual vertebae dont mess with like its a problem that needs fixing. Change is much less shocking if its gradual and fluid.

Hope this helps[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your reply. I’ve had a skype session with Mukunda and he has given me exercises, one is called “the cat” and another is a standing version of the cat, I assume that those are similar to what you describe? I am not too bothered about the curve, as long as it don’t get worse, the leg length problem is more disturbing, but Mukunda claims that it can be sorted and the curve can hopefully be straightened to as much as 1/3.

#8

Hi Davidiot,

I am not too bothered about the curve, as long as it don’t get worse, the leg length problem is more disturbing,

What i have heard,if that counts for anything, is that actual leg length discrepancy is actually very rare.It’s just that it can appear that way and much much more likely it is tight musculature holding the skeleton in a particular pattern. I can’t point you to any data on that or documented research but there is one Thomas Hanna that said in a study of 5000 individuals where this was imagined only a tiny proportion(less than 25 say) actually had actual leg length discrepancy and they were involved mostly in serious auto accidents or sever trauma of another sort.It was either either his own patients- he was a neuro-muscular movement therapist with alot of medicial knowledge and experience, - or a documented study. I may have got this info from the book ‘Somatics’ by Thomas Hanna. When you measured the distance from the head of the femur to the heel of the foot, the lengths were the same.Therefore when chirporactors suggest toe-lifts i wonder whether it is based on a wrong diagnosis.

According to the Hanna Somatics paradigm( I wrote about this some time ago here),scoliosis is usually the result of trauma to one side of the body but it does’nt have to be entirely physical so it does acknwledge that mind and body are related.They teach you a set of exercises to release tight muscles.

The yoga therapy apporach is i’ve coome to believe alot better but much more complex as it’s approach is alot more holistic and prescribes a lot more variables-assess lifestyle diet etc- common sense prescriptions but usually the more challenging to follow.

I would suggest a yoga therapsit familiar with pawanmuktasana series (i wrote about it in a post here recently- )-ask them if they’re familar with the Bihar school of Yoga publication or have some training in Satyananda Yoga tradition- that’s just another name for it.

I think you can be cured completely but you need someone that really knows their craft.I think it was another poster here(Willem i believe) that said you need a dedicated student and an experienced or devoted teacher to cure these sort of things, but they can be done. Just don’t expect instant results.More likely expect a time scales range of 6months- 2years of regular practice.

In terms that current science understands i think the closest explanation is that on a gross physical level you are re-wiring the sensory-motor cortex located right at the apex of the fontanelle- where you have two strips seonsroy and motor- these control muscles and specifically muscle tonus which in turn affects how our skeleton/bones are organised… The wise yogis will go further and say behind the gross physcial body you have energy that is either flowing freely or obstructed.You cannot see it but if you’re sensitive enough (or know what too look for while immersed in deep meditation)you can feel it.And we have a rough idea when parts of our body work or don’t work as they should;when our body, kind of, seems to have let us down.

My main point here was that alot of folk think they might have leg length discrepancy may indeed not have it- of course it does’nt help matters that their therapist is supporting that theory .So the number of times i’ve heard a shoe-lift recommended does make me wonder. A more likely probabliility would be that muscles in the hip complex are overly tight and the psoas muscle is usuually the cheif culprit.It cheifly initiates bipedal locomotion-the actions involved in walking or bringing the legs to the trunk.Sitting for long periods can cause it to be overly-contracted and of higher than normal muscle tonus…Also to re-iterate what was said above - no one muscle works in isolation- they all co-operate together- be it good posture or bad.So focusing just on just the erector spinae muscles is unlikely to resolve your problem.

You’re obviously in excellent hands and one of the lucky ones.

Best of Luck!

#9

This concern can be a great motivation for doing your practice. On the other hand, as you move towards being a yoga practitioner, see if you can become a little less attached to this concern. Notice your thoughts and feelings every time they come up. Recognize them for what they are - mental events and feelings - and let go. Over and over again. Don’t get caught up in the emotions behind your concern just right now. Later on, there may be a period in your yoga therapy in which more emotions will surface and dissolve in due course. For the moment, just do your practice. And enjoy life outside of your practice.

#10

[QUOTE=core789;30068]Hi Davidiot,

What i have heard,if that counts for anything, is that actual leg length discrepancy is actually very rare.It’s just that it can appear that way and much much more likely it is tight musculature holding the skeleton in a particular pattern. I can’t point you to any data on that or documented research but there is one Thomas Hanna that said in a study of 5000 individuals where this was imagined only a tiny proportion(less than 25 say) actually had actual leg length discrepancy and they were involved mostly in serious auto accidents or sever trauma of another sort.It was either either his own patients- he was a neuro-muscular movement therapist with alot of medicial knowledge and experience, - or a documented study. I may have got this info from the book ‘Somatics’ by Thomas Hanna. When you measured the distance from the head of the femur to the heel of the foot, the lengths were the same.Therefore when chirporactors suggest toe-lifts i wonder whether it is based on a wrong diagnosis.

According to the Hanna Somatics paradigm( I wrote about this some time ago htw.yogaforums.com/forums/f18/hanna-somatics-3719.hl"]here,scoliosis is usually the result of trauma to one side of the body but it does’nt have to be entirely physical so it does acknwledge that mind and body are related.They teach you a set of exercises to release tight muscles.

The yoga therapy apporach is i’ve coome to believe alot better but much more complex as it’s approach is alot more holistic and prescribes a lot more variables-assess lifestyle diet etc- common sense prescriptions but usually the more challenging to follow.

I would suggest a yoga therapsit familiar with pawanmuktasana series (i wrote about it in a post ht:/w.yogaforums.m/forums/showpost.php?p=28990&postcount=6"]here recently- )-ask them if they’re familar with the Bihar school of Yoga publication or have some training in Satyananda Yoga tradition- that’s just another name for it.

I think you can be cured completely but you need someone that really knows their craft.I think it was another poster here(Willem i believe) that said you need a dedicated student and an experienced or devoted teacher to cure these sort of things, but they can be done. Just don’t expect instant results.More likely expect a time scales range of 6months- 2years of regular practice.

In terms that current science understands i think the closest explanation is that on a gross physical level you are re-wiring the sensory-motor cortex located right at the apex of the fontanelle- where you have two strips seonsroy and motor- these control muscles and specifically muscle tonus which in turn affects how our skeleton/bones are organised… The wise yogis will go further and say behind the gross physcial body you have energy that is either flowing freely or obstructed.You cannot see it but if you’re sensitive enough (or know what too look for while immersed in deep meditation)you can feel it.And we have a rough idea when parts of our body work or don’t work as they should;when our body, kind of, seems to have let us down.

My main point here was that alot of folk think they might have leg length discrepancy may indeed not have it- of course it does’nt help matters that their therapist is supporting that theory .So the number of times i’ve heard a shoe-lift recommended does make me wonder. A more likely probabliility would be that muscles in the hip complex are overly tight and the psoas muscle is usuually the cheif culprit.It cheifly initiates bipedal locomotion-the actions involved in walking or bringing the legs to the trunk.Sitting for long periods can cause it to be overly-contracted and of higher than normal muscle tonus…Also to re-iterate what was said above - no one muscle works in isolation- they all co-operate together- be it good posture or bad.So focusing just on just the erector spinae muscles is unlikely to resolve your problem.

You’re obviously in excellent hands and one of the lucky ones.

Best of Luck![/QUOTE]

Thank you very much for your thorough reply! I don’t believe that my legs are of unequal length, Mukunda gave me an exercise that he says will help stabilise my hips and my sacrum, and when doing so the legs won’t seem uneven any more. I asked him if the connection between my different symptoms were somewhat clear and he told me that he has seen it before. It seems to me that he has quite long experience, He has based his instructions on the x-rays, on conversations with me, and also on web-cam. Hopefully this will suffice, at least he seem to think so. what do you think?

“You’re obviously in excellent hands and one of the lucky ones.”

I’ve never thought of it that way, but I feel confident about this new track and I put a lot of hope in to it. Thank you

#11

[QUOTE=Willem;30076]This concern can be a great motivation for doing your practice. On the other hand, as you move towards being a yoga practitioner, see if you can become a little less attached to this concern. Notice your thoughts and feelings every time they come up. Recognize them for what they are - mental events and feelings - and let go. Over and over again. Don’t get caught up in the emotions behind your concern just right now. Later on, there may be a period in your yoga therapy in which more emotions will surface and dissolve in due course. For the moment, just do your practice. And enjoy life outside of your practice.[/QUOTE]

I really do understand what you mean, I’ve thought of it myself, and there isn’t too much I can do except doing my exercises, so I don’t want to let the concern be a disproportionate part of my everyday life. Thank you

#12

Hi Davidiot ,

Thank you very much for your thorough reply! I don’t believe that my legs are of unequal length,

That’s alright then.I know how disturbing that thought could be.

Mukunda gave me an exercise that he says will help stabilise my hips and my sacrum, and when doing so the legs won’t seem uneven any more. I asked him if the connection between my different symptoms were somewhat clear and he told me that he has seen it before. It seems to me that he has quite long experience, He has based his instructions on the x-rays, on conversations with me, and also on web-cam. Hopefully this will suffice, at least he seem to think so. what do you think?

You appear to have got the most vital ingredient which is the motivation to do the practices/exercises, providing you are using an accepted or tested therapeutic movement/asana system(Structural Yoga Therapy -‘Joint Freeing Series’ and Pawanmkutasana Series’ (BiharSchool) would appear to bear some similarity), and doing the practices as prescribed for the long-haul.

Also if you are really committed you can also examine the full panopoly of yoga methods techniques including pranayama , meditation,diet,lifestyle etc(though you’ve probably got enough on your plate to start with) if you really wanted to turbo-boost the results as yoga really is a science of cause and effect.If we do the practices and don’t worry too much about results paradoxically things will work out eventually.Also be prepared to learn alot about your self,the human psyche, and yoga science.

Yoga has great transformational power- what i have learned is that sometimes we have to look pretty deep within ourself to unlock it’s secrets.The strange things is that crises like these in our lives can be a great catalyst for real change on a deep profound level if we follow through and listen to the call.

I am not too clear on what yoga exposure you have had but if there is none at all there could be a bit of a learning curve.Yoga exercises are not done like ordiinary excercises.Awareness is the key.

Of course if you’re in the hands of Mukunda Stiles i would always defer to his advice.

If you are an experienced practitioner and need to negotiate some humps or obstacles in your practice that are clearly screaming out for attention then look at Bihar School of Yoga publication-[I]Asana,Pranayama,Mudra & Bandha[/I] by Swami Satyananda Saraswati.You’ll find pawanmutasana series 1,2 & 3 right at the start.(i always ignored that book because it appeared more encyclopediac- it is really a systematic hatha manual, plus i had less experience of the meditational yoga approaches too).My own personal story stems from energy imbalances that arose immediately back in late 2006(mainly from employing powerful techniques like the breath and uddiyana bhanda).Some folk desccribe it as a premature kundalini awakening and with hindsight that’s the best explanation to sum it up- as it manifested itself all of a sudden! It has forced me to look at my yoga practice,living and self more closely.Really i don’t know what i was doing.I was a neophyte.

If you’re working with Mukunda then you’re probably best to stick with someone of his stature.I am just a student although rather keen.

—If you’re interested then PM me your x-rays and i could tell you what i think, anatomically or other ways.

If you learn the practices suggested and do them regularly, yes that should suffice.Also hanging out and learning from other practitioners helps-with respect to motivation,community and knowledge…Most of yoga is about practice-we do the practices regularly and we’re all right- you can absorb some philosophy and learn technique— the rest will sort itself out.

I think i’m a practical person so i think I favour practical advice.