Should one take siddhis vibhuti as metaphor?

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#18

Surya,

“This assertion that some siddhis are literal, some are metaphorical and some are lies is entirely your invention, and does not occur anywhere in the Yoga sutras or other Yoga literature.”

It is my own understanding. One may agree or disagree with it. But the Truth is not to be found either in the yoga sutras or other yogic literature.

“Likewise, your assertion that the Yoga sutras is full of symbolic content is again entirely your invention and no Yoga scholars would agree with you.”

That is not what I had said. I had said that using symbolism to veil other processes is something which is common, both in the East and the Western traditions. I had not mentioned anything about the Yoga sutras in my response. Neither am I interested at all in what the yoga sutras claim about the siddhis. I know from direct experience which one’s are possible and which one’s are simply imagination to encourage the disciple to practice the sadhana.

“But today quantum non-locality is a proven fact about the universe. This non-local property allows for things like quantum tunneling where an object can pass through a wall; quantum teleportation where an object can appear and reappear at another point in space; quantum levitation, where an object can be caused to levitate by generating an upwards pushing force from free space and zero point energy where free energy can be generated from any point in free space:”

I am aware of this. But one should be careful to become deluded by such an understanding. The quantum laws are just one aspect of the laws which are functioning in the universe, they are the building blocks of the atomic. At a scale larger than the atomic, the laws are diametrically opposite. And that is what has created a great confusion amongst the scientists, how these laws can be diametrically opposite and yet part of the same existence. Many people have been clinging to the findings of the quantum world to support their own beliefs and ideas, but without understanding that they do not help you to come to more knowledge, but only to realize how ignorant one is about the existence in which one lives.

#19

Scales,

“So you’ve achieved Samyama?”

Yes.

#20

Surya,

“I think by your own admission that you have not reached the highest heights of your spiritual jouney yet, you are really limiting yourself by throwing away the possibility that these siddhis maybe real.”

Yes, my work is far from complete. And siddhis are not at all reflections of one’s expansion, they simply show that certain aspects and energies of one’s mind which were previously asleep have become awakened. That is not much. Just enough training will do it. Just as a martial artist may attain to a certain skill with the body which is beyond the capabilities of the average person, similarly one can attain to certain capacities of the mind. But it does not mean anything at all as far as one’s enlightenment is concerned. Although siddhis do develop in the process of coming closer and closer to enlightenment, that is something totally different.

One does not have to accept what I am saying, but one will have to understand that the culture in which the yoga sutras is written has always been highly dialectical, and yet strongly intellectual. And it has been the intention of many authors to appeal to the imagination of the kind of people who would be reading the work.

When it is said in the yoga sutras :

3.45

“Then extraordinary powers appear, such as the power to be as small as an atom, as well as bodily perfection and indestructibility”.

One should first ask what it is that he means by the first part. Is it the body which can be as small as the atom, or the mind ? If one means the first, the one is simply hallucinating. The second part that the body can attain to a state of indestructibility is either complete nonsense, or just symbolic. Because it is possible to bring your body to such a state, where the prana absorbs into the body in a way in which even if you swallow knives and razor blades, it will not create any internal damage at all. But if one starts thinking that this means the body is going to live forever, then too, one will simply be hallucinating.

#21

I know from direct experience which one’s are possible and which one’s are simply imagination to encourage the disciple to practice the sadhana.

It is entirely possible that the ones you have verified are only as far as your current abilities go. I would recommend you remain open to the others as well, because by starting to believe the others are nonsense, you are limiting yourself to the level you are already at.

There are various siddhis that appear the deeper the states of mind you go into(i.e., the deeper the level of prakriti you enter) From what you describe I think you are still only on the surface level. But you have mistaken this to be the limit. If you want to progress further you are going to have to keep an open mind. Patanjali says ignorance is mistaking the unreal for the real, the false for the truth and pain for pleasure.

am aware of this. But one should be careful to become deluded by such an understanding. The quantum laws are just one aspect of the laws which are functioning in the universe, they are the building blocks of the atomic. At a scale larger than the atomic, the laws are diametrically opposite. And that is what has created a great confusion amongst the scientists, how these laws can be diametrically opposite and yet part of the same existence. Many people have been clinging to the findings of the quantum world to support their own beliefs and ideas, but without understanding that they do not help you to come to more knowledge, but only to realize how ignorant one is about the existence in which one lives.

There is only confusion because scientists are refusing to get rid of classical physics because they cherish the objective and real world too much. It is impossible that the universe would behave a certain way at the microscopic level and then the complete opposite at the macroscopic level. No, it behaves the same and can be explained in terms of quantum mechanics. So far we have been limited by our technology in using QM for large objects, but now the situation is improving. Now QM can be used to work with larger objects as well. What this basically means the old theories of there being separate physical objects suspended in time and space are wrong, reality is not like that. Rather, reality is a single and coherent unit, where everything is interconnected and exists as a wavefunction of quantum vibrations. Everything you see around you is just a phenomenal form as rendered by your senses, it really is just a wavefunction and is interacting with everything else in the universe at once.

You are going to have to at some point abandon these beliefs you have of a physical universe with time, space and matter. It will hold you back from progressing.

As I have pointed out several times on this forum already the idea of separability and reality has long been falsified by quantum physics. There is no such thing as a real and objective existence. This is what allows for technologies like quantum teleportation, quantum levitation, quantum tunneling and quantum energy extraction. In the future we will being using these technologies openly. All of these quantum technologies are basically what Patanjali is describing that can be achieived when you reach a certain level of mind in yoga.

Again I am not sure what level you are at, but it does not sound like it is too deep.

#22

Then extraordinary powers appear, such as the power to be as small as an atom, as well as bodily perfection and indestructibility".

One should first ask what it is that he means by the first part. Is it the body which can be as small as the atom, or the mind ? If one means the first, the one is simply hallucinating. The second part that the body can attain to a state of indestructibility is either complete nonsense, or just symbolic. Because it is possible to bring your body to such a state, where the prana absorbs into the body in a way in which even if you swallow knives and razor blades, it will not create any internal damage at all. But if one starts thinking that this means the body is going to live forever, then too, one will simply be hallucinating.

It means what it says. Patanjali is very clear when he is talking of siddhis of the mind and siddhis of the body. Here he is saying you can reduce the size of your body to the size of an atom or render your body indestrucible. Again this depends on what level of mind you are at.

Most of the siddhis Patanjali describes take place in very advanced level called samyama. Which is an advanced samadhi. It is known as samyama because it is a state of perfect control of prakriti. Hence, why the abilities describes are so extraordinary/fantastic. Although you claim to have reached this level, I don’t really think you have. I think rather you have been able to tap lower siddhis(which is an accomplishment in itself) but samyama is really advanced stuff and very few people on this planet have probably attained it.

#23

Surya,

“There is no such thing as a real and objective existence.”

What one considers “real” or “unreal” are just one’s own relative ideas about it. But whatsoever one considers “real” or “unreal”, one still has to eat food through one’s mouth and hear through one’s ears.

#24

Surya,

"Again I am not sure what level you are at, but it does not sound like it is too deep. "

One may be far too fascinated by these siddhis. They do not reflect at all one’s insight into existence, nor are they indications that one has come to an awakening.

#25

Surya,

“Here he is saying you can reduce the size of your body to the size of an atom or render your body indestrucible.”

Then I disagree with Patanjali.

#26

Surya,

“It is known as samyama because it is a state of perfect control of prakriti.”

This is just a projection of the ego, which wants to inflate it’s lust for power onto the whole universe. If one becomes aware for even a moment of how much is involved in something as simple as the process of breathing, one can only remain in a deep gratitude. Even if one attains to super-human capabilities, nothing is absolutely in man’s control. It does not matter how much knowledge one gathers, nor how many siddhis one develops.

#27

i am more apt to agree with you amir mourad. cause if someone could like reduce the size of there body we would certainly have seen of heard about it in some way in the last century in my oppinion.

#28

amirmourad would you mind going throught the siddhis and telling us witch one you think are real and witch ones are fake or use some kind of metaphor?

Thanks

#29

mewtwo,

Even if it was possible, one still would not have heard about it. Simply because very few people practice these methods. And amongst those very few, even few penetrate into the deeper levels of the discipline. In the West, people are largely unaware of it, but in India there have been yogis who have been living underwater for days without dying, or burying themselves underneath the Earth for years. There is nothing mystical or magical about it. The body absorbs energy in various different ways. One way is through oxygen. But the body does not need to absorb energy from oxygen to sustain itself. If your awareness is sensitive enough, your system can absorb energy from prana, or the subtle energies of nature. In fact, the method for burying yourself alive for days is quite simple in hearing about it, but very difficult in practice. You have to eat a certain amount of food, keeping the belly at least half full so that your body can digest energy. Once you have buried yourself, you just imagine a flame of light in the center of the forehead at the third eye. Once your mind becomes absolutely absorbed in that center in a certain way, it starts absorbing prana from both it’s own system and the outer environment. And like this, the breath becomes completely arrested, you can remain buried under the Earth, or underwater, for several days, months, or years.

Such things are possible. But there is also a line that is to be drawn as to what the body is capable of, it’s powers are limited, as are the mind, man is not omnipotent.

#30

i agree with you in that the body is limited but the mind is not. Once one does something like ascend this phisical body and become a being of pure conciousness one can untap the full power of the mind.

#31

This is just a projection of the ego, which wants to inflate it’s lust for power onto the whole universe. If one becomes aware for even a moment of how much is involved in something as simple as the process of breathing, one can only remain in a deep gratitude. Even if one attains to super-human capabilities, nothing is absolutely in man’s control. It does not matter how much knowledge one gathers, nor how many siddhis one develops.

It is true that somebody who attains samyama could indeed develop a massive ego, because basically at this level you are a master of the universe. You have complete control of prakriti and can do as you will. However, Patanjali does say that one must now allow this to happen and remain detached. So attaining to this stage does not necessarily mean that you will develop an ego.

Moreover, it is simply false that man cannot control nature. If this were true, then our entire technological civilisation would be a lie. Indeed man can control nature, harness it and utilise it for his purposes. The more advanced man becomes the more and more control he achieives over nature. We are close to getting to the point where we could even control our own weather. The science of Yoga is indeed about achieiving control over nature. If you attain to perfect control(samyama) then you can control nature absolutely.

It is clear Amir you have not reached samyama. It is unfortunate, however, just because you have not attained to it, you have started believing it is not possible. I think it is best to practice what you preach and only say as much as you can directly experience and remain silent on what you cannot directly experience.

Again I have already given enough evidence to show that all the siddhis are possible using technology in moden physics and we have already been able to demonstrate them. It is your choice whether you want to listen or willfully remain ignorant about this.

#32

agree with you in that the body is limited but the mind is not.

The body is limited and the mind is unlimited? Then how do the limited and unlimited interact with one another? The truth is the mind is just as limited as the body is. If you do something to the body, the mind responds. If I toggle certain areas of your brain I can cause things to happen in your mind. If you injest drugs, it causes your mind to change. This is because the mind and the body are both the same thing.

If the mind and body were not the same thing then Yoga would be a lie. Why an earth would you do physical and breathing exercises? The answer is, because the physical and breathing exercises have a direct effect on the mind. In science today we understand just how connected the mind and body are and have been able to succesfully map every physical state to a mental state. We can predict exactly what mental state you are going to have when a physical state is induced.

#33

so the body does not limit the mind? I know that the two are connected.

#34

mewtwo, : )

“i agree with you in that the body is limited but the mind is not.”

Whether the mind is also limited, I would question this.

#35

[QUOTE=mewtwo;49579]so the body does not limit the mind? I know that the two are connected.[/QUOTE]

The fact they are connected means that that they are not two separate substances where one is limited and the other is unlimited. They are both as limited as each other, because they have limitations. The body has limitations such as age age, height, body and the mind has limitations such as intelligence, memory, perception.

Anything that occurs within nature is by definition limited. In Samkhya-Yoga there is a very clear definition for what is natural and hence matter and what is non-material and outside of nature: all that is possessed of the properies of change and transformation is natural and material. Conversely, that which is not possessed of the property of change and transformation - consciousness is non-material and outside of nature.

Anything which changes and transforms which is a property common to both mind and body is by definition limited because change only takes place to something that is within the bounds of time and space. Hence limited.

#36

Surya,

“because basically at this level you are a master of the universe”

When one is referred to as a master, it has nothing at all to do with being a so called master of the universe. Unless one means the universe and nature of one’s own being. Otherwise, all that it simply means is that one has come to know oneself, through and through. It does not mean that if you want to cross over, the ocean is going open up for you to pass. To be a “master” of prakriti has little to do with controlling the physical, but in being liberated from the physical. And the difference between the two is immense.

“Moreover, it is simply false that man cannot control nature.”

I have not said that man cannot use nature for his own purposes, but that it is impossible to have absolute control over nature. Control means an effort of the will. And will is in itself a restricting force. Freedom is a state of being which is choiceless. Once liberation becomes your very nature, then there is no question of using your will. And even in using one’s will, nothing is ever attained by oneself. So many forces are involved in even the most simplest of actions. Just for a single flower to be in the garden, how much is involved ? From the proper soil, to the sunlight, to the right amount of water, to the proper season, to the right care and attention, to the laws of the subatomic, gravitation, electricity, magnetism, to the evolution of the galaxy which contains the sun, to the evolution of the cosmos itself from the time of the big bang which has taken thousands of years - how much is involved ? The same is the case with our being. It is man who, desiring to find comfort and security, is always on a power trip.

“The science of Yoga is indeed about achieiving control over nature”

I cannot agree. Yoga has very little to do with accumulating siddhis. Yoga simply means Union. When you are living in direct communion with your true nature, that is a state of yoga.

“if you attain to perfect control(samyama) then you can control nature absolutely.”

As far as samyama is concerned, in the yogic sciences it simply means the combination of dharana (concentration), dhyana (meditation), and samadhi. When these three arise together, it is called samyama. The whole work of meditation is samyama, but it is not about accumulating siddhis, but of having a direct experience of the true nature of mind.

#37

Surya,

“The truth is the mind is just as limited as the body is.”

I agree with this. Perhaps we should look into why the mind is limited. The first assumption is usually that the mind is not physical.