mewtwo, : )
“i agree with you in that the body is limited but the mind is not.”
Whether the mind is also limited, I would question this.
[QUOTE=mewtwo;49579]so the body does not limit the mind? I know that the two are connected.[/QUOTE]
The fact they are connected means that that they are not two separate substances where one is limited and the other is unlimited. They are both as limited as each other, because they have limitations. The body has limitations such as age age, height, body and the mind has limitations such as intelligence, memory, perception.
Anything that occurs within nature is by definition limited. In Samkhya-Yoga there is a very clear definition for what is natural and hence matter and what is non-material and outside of nature: all that is possessed of the properies of change and transformation is natural and material. Conversely, that which is not possessed of the property of change and transformation - consciousness is non-material and outside of nature.
Anything which changes and transforms which is a property common to both mind and body is by definition limited because change only takes place to something that is within the bounds of time and space. Hence limited.
Surya,
“because basically at this level you are a master of the universe”
When one is referred to as a master, it has nothing at all to do with being a so called master of the universe. Unless one means the universe and nature of one’s own being. Otherwise, all that it simply means is that one has come to know oneself, through and through. It does not mean that if you want to cross over, the ocean is going open up for you to pass. To be a “master” of prakriti has little to do with controlling the physical, but in being liberated from the physical. And the difference between the two is immense.
“Moreover, it is simply false that man cannot control nature.”
I have not said that man cannot use nature for his own purposes, but that it is impossible to have absolute control over nature. Control means an effort of the will. And will is in itself a restricting force. Freedom is a state of being which is choiceless. Once liberation becomes your very nature, then there is no question of using your will. And even in using one’s will, nothing is ever attained by oneself. So many forces are involved in even the most simplest of actions. Just for a single flower to be in the garden, how much is involved ? From the proper soil, to the sunlight, to the right amount of water, to the proper season, to the right care and attention, to the laws of the subatomic, gravitation, electricity, magnetism, to the evolution of the galaxy which contains the sun, to the evolution of the cosmos itself from the time of the big bang which has taken thousands of years - how much is involved ? The same is the case with our being. It is man who, desiring to find comfort and security, is always on a power trip.
“The science of Yoga is indeed about achieiving control over nature”
I cannot agree. Yoga has very little to do with accumulating siddhis. Yoga simply means Union. When you are living in direct communion with your true nature, that is a state of yoga.
“if you attain to perfect control(samyama) then you can control nature absolutely.”
As far as samyama is concerned, in the yogic sciences it simply means the combination of dharana (concentration), dhyana (meditation), and samadhi. When these three arise together, it is called samyama. The whole work of meditation is samyama, but it is not about accumulating siddhis, but of having a direct experience of the true nature of mind.
Surya,
“The truth is the mind is just as limited as the body is.”
I agree with this. Perhaps we should look into why the mind is limited. The first assumption is usually that the mind is not physical.
“Anything which changes and transforms which is a property common to both mind and body is by definition limited because change only takes place to something that is within the bounds of time and space. Hence limited.”
Certainly. Anything which is subject to cause and effect, time and space is limited. And mind is very much subject to time and space.
You have stated one can become a “master of the universe”. Does this involve dissolving one’s limitations, moving beyond form and into the formless, beyond all boundaries and into the boundless, the finite and into the infinite ? If so, then who is it whom you are calling the “master of the universe?”
When one is referred to as a master, it has nothing at all to do with being a so called master of the universe. Unless one means the universe and nature of one’s own being. Otherwise, all that it simply means is that one has come to know oneself, through and through. It does not mean that if you want to cross over, the ocean is going open up for you to pass. To be a “master” of prakriti has little to do with controlling the physical, but in being liberated from the physical. And the difference between the two is immense.
To be a master of prakriti is to be a master of everything within prakriti. Prakriti is the entire continuum of mind and matter. If you only have mastery on just one aspect, then you are not a master of prakriti. In our current modern civilisation we only have control over certain aspects of prakriti, but not complete control. Yoga gives you complete control. This is why I say Yoga is the science of transforming into a god. It will make you a god if you maintain your practice. Master of the universe.
You keep on talking about ego, but do you realise what you are doing when you say “my being”? You are asserting ego. In Yoga one does not know ones being, they know being. There is no mineness in being. I do not believe you know being through and through, by your own admission that you have got a long way to go still. One of the biggest blunders one makes on the path is to prematurely conclude they have got to the destination, when in actuality they have not even got passed the first mile(of 1000 miles) on the path.
I have not said that man cannot use nature for his own purposes, but that it is impossible to have absolute control over nature. Control means an effort of the will. And will is in itself a restricting force. Freedom is a state of being which is choiceless. Once liberation becomes your very nature, then there is no question of using your will. And even in using one’s will, nothing is ever attained by oneself. So many forces are involved in even the most simplest of actions. Just for a single flower to be in the garden, how much is involved ? From the proper soil, to the sunlight, to the right amount of water, to the proper season, to the right care and attention, to the laws of the subatomic, gravitation, electricity, magnetism, to the evolution of the galaxy which contains the sun, to the evolution of the cosmos itself from the time of the big bang which has taken thousands of years - how much is involved ? The same is the case with our being. It is man who, desiring to find comfort and security, is always on a power trip.
The control over nature becomes more and more the more our scientific knowledge progresses. In the beginning of science we learned how to control basic forces like gravity and steam power and we used this to create mechnical things and steam engines. Then we learned how to control electricity and magnetism and we used this to make motors, generators and batteries. Then we learned how to control the quantum and we used this to make transistors, lasers and computers. Notice how first we could control big things and now we can control small things.
Now our control is becoming even more precise as we get to the nanoscale of matter. We are in the position to create our own fusion reacters and create mini blackholes. In the future we will develop even greater contorl. We will be able to prolong the life of our body, control the weather, control the earth. Eventually we will be able to control everything in the universe. The variables will become less and less to the point where we would able to predict with exactitude anything that could happen. We will literally become like gods.
I cannot agree. Yoga has very little to do with accumulating siddhis. Yoga simply means Union. When you are living in direct communion with your true nature, that is a state of yoga.
Of course Yoga is about control. The very definition of Yoga is to still the modifications of the field of mind. It is about applying effort in order to gain contorl over the mind and thereby matter. When you are not doing Yoga, you are allowing your mind to run by its own tendencies, the purpose of Yoga is to gain mastery of the mind. If you become a master of your mind, then you will become a master of matter as well. Hence a master of the universe.
As far as samyama is concerned, in the yogic sciences it simply means the combination of dharana (concentration), dhyana (meditation), and samadhi. When these three arise together, it is called samyama. The whole work of meditation is samyama, but it is not about accumulating siddhis, but of having a direct experience of the true nature of mind.
Samyama means perfect control. It is called perfect control because that is exactly what it is. You have absolute mastery over nature - the entire continuum of mind and matter. In order to get to Samyama you first get pass the preliminary stages: pratyhara. That is complete sense withdrawal. The signs of entering it are unmistakable. The senses will shut down and you will introvert into your mind and see all your thought activity as clear as day light. Then you will enter the stage of dharana where you will assume the object for meditation(different objects will produce different effects in Sabija Samadhi) After a sustained period of dharana you will enter dhyana. After a sustained period of dhyana you will enter into samadhi. The first levels of samadhi you enter will be all Sabjia samadhi(samadhi with seed i.e., dual awareness of you and your object) Then Samyama will take place and the effect will happen based on what object you selected at dharana. If your object was the udana vayu, at samyama you will have complete control of udana vayu.
The more frequently you enter into samyama the more the samyama state of concentration will become naturalized. Then you will be able to willfully use any siddhis. Otherwise, siddis will only take place in deep states of meditation. Hence why some people experience levitation in meditation, but cannot do it willfully in the waking state.
He doesn’t know of what he speaks.
He speaks of ego all the time because that is [I]his[/I] work.
His 6 year ascetic practice has only served to fill him with Pride.
“I’m special.” “The rest of the World isn’t like me.” “they couldn’t do what I do.” etc…
He has NOT achieved Samyama. If he did he wouldn’t express his incorrect views regarding attainments - being the maverick intrepid explorer he is.
Surya,
“Of course Yoga is about control”
Effort is certainly needed, but effort in itself is not enough. Does a mirror reflect by it’s own nature, or does a lotus chase after it’s own fragrance ? Your own true nature is not something that can be done as an effort of the mind, much less living in communion with it. And along the path, there comes a point where if you continue pedaling the wheels of your effort, you will simply stagnate. Because beyond the second dhyana, it is impossible to progress forward through either concentration, contemplation, or any conscious effort of the mind. That would be like trying to still the lake by throwing stones in it.
““The very definition of Yoga is to still the modifications of the field of mind””
To do so through your own will is like trying to grasp the vastness of space into your fist.
“When you are not doing Yoga, you are allowing your mind to run by its own tendencies”
Yoga is enlightenment itself. It simply means union. If you are living in a direct communion with your true nature, then you are in a state of yoga. Neither is it a problem if the mind functions according to it’s own tendencies. The problem is that you have made such a thing into a problem because one is unable to have an experience of mind without clinging to whatever arises in the field of the senses. The moment the mind becomes identified with anything at all, one loses all clarity of perception, one has become the slave rather than remain centered as the master.
All that is needed is just a certain gap of space in your experience between the Witness within oneself and that which is witnessed. Once you can remain a witnessing consciousness from moment to moment without identifying with anything whatsoever, then you have come to a certain freedom beyond measure. Then you can remain in the mind but not of the mind, with a consciousness which is just like a mirror reflecting. And that is what has been called as sahaja samadhi in the yogic sciences, when your samadhi becomes as natural and spontaneous as your own breath. The mind is not something that one necessarily needs to control, the purpose is to liberate the mind.
“the purpose of Yoga is to gain mastery of the mind. If you become a master of your mind, then you will become a master of matter as well. Hence a master of the universe.”
Once, Matsu went to master Nanyue. Nanyue asked, “What do you intend by doing sitting meditation?”
Matsu said, “I am intending to be a Buddha.”
Nanyue picked up a brick and started polishing it.
Mazu said, “What are you doing?”
Nanyue said, “I am trying to make a mirror.”
Mazu said, “How can you make a mirror by polishing a brick?”
Nanyue said, “How can you become a Buddha by doing sitting meditation?”
Mazu said, “What do you mean by that?”
Nanyue said, “Think about driving a cart. When it stops moving, do you whip the cart or the horse?”
Mazu said nothing.
Nanyue said, “Do you want to practicing sitting meditation or sitting Buddha? If you understanding sitting meditation, you will know that it is not about sitting or lying down. If you want to learn sitting Buddha, know that sitting Buddha is without any fixed form. Do not use discrimination in the non-abiding Truth. If you practice sitting as a Buddha, you must first kill the Buddha. If you are attached to the sitting form, you are not yet mastering the essential principle.”
Surya,
“The signs of entering it are unmistakable. The senses will shut down and you will introvert into your mind and see all your thought activity as clear as day light. Then you will enter the stage of dharana where you will assume the object for meditation(different objects will produce different effects in Sabija Samadhi) After a sustained period of dharana you will enter dhyana. After a sustained period of dhyana you will enter into samadhi. The first levels of samadhi you enter will be all Sabjia samadhi(samadhi with seed i.e., dual awareness of you and your object) Then Samyama will take place and the effect will happen based on what object you selected at dharana. If your object was the udana vayu, at samyama you will have complete control of udana vayu.”
If you had seen into this, you would know by now that most of this is just like a flower blossoming in it’s season. You are thinking it to be a matter of pulling a lotus out of a seed.
The Scales,
"He doesn’t know of what he speaks.
He speaks of ego all the time because that is his work"
I have spoken of it because that is your work, the same work and game that you have been playing for millenia. It is not that one has an ego which has been manufacturing much suffering for man, but that one has become far too identified with one’s ego. The ego, like every part of the mind, has a particular function to fulfill, and when it is put into balance within the rest of one’s structure, it is in fact supportive for one’s expansion. But the whole problem is that one has mistaken a mask for one’s original face.
“I’m special.” “The rest of the World isn’t like me.” “they couldn’t do what I do.” etc…"
My understanding and state of being has not arisen because I am special in any way. It is simply because I have done the work that is needed to come to know myself. And anybody who is willing to initiate the right effort and discipline can come to the same. One may like it or dislike it, but although all beings are by their very nature awakened, the reality is that very few ever come to it’s realization.
“He has NOT achieved Samyama. If he did he wouldn’t express his incorrect views regarding attainments - being the maverick intrepid explorer he is.”
Seeing that you are as far away from your awakening as possible, you would not have even the slightest idea of what Samyama is besides the borrowed knowledge that you have gathered into your mind. Drop all of your assumptions and enter into the matter as an empty slate, in recognition of your own ignorance.
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;49668]The Scales,
"He doesn’t know of what he speaks.
He speaks of ego all the time because that is his work"
I have spoken of it because that is your work, the same work and game that you have been playing for millenia. It is not that one has an ego which has been manufacturing much suffering for man, but that one has become far too identified with one’s ego. The ego, like every part of the mind, has a particular function to fulfill, and when it is put into balance within the rest of one’s structure, it is in fact supportive for one’s expansion. But the whole problem is that one has mistaken a mask for one’s original face.
“I’m special.” “The rest of the World isn’t like me.” “they couldn’t do what I do.” etc…"
My understanding and state of being has not arisen because I am special in any way. It is simply because I have done the work that is needed to come to know myself. And anybody who is willing to initiate the right effort and discipline can come to the same. One may like it or dislike it, but although all beings are by their very nature awakened, the reality is that very few ever come to it’s realization.
“He has NOT achieved Samyama. If he did he wouldn’t express his incorrect views regarding attainments - being the maverick intrepid explorer he is.”
Seeing that you are as far away from your awakening as possible, you would not have even the slightest idea of what Samyama is besides the borrowed knowledge that you have gathered into your mind. Drop all of your assumptions and enter into the matter as an empty slate, in recognition of your own ignorance.[/QUOTE]
But are you not doing the same as regards ego?
The Scales wears his ego as an Ornament. It is my entertainment system and my prod to action within the world.
I know what I really am.
I’ve seen the real me many times.
Why do they always project their ‘stuff’ on me?
Why?
Mr. Walking Fortune Cookie I have you on ignore. Have had you on ignore. Will continue to keep you on ignore. If only no one would respond to you then I would never have to read you quoted in someone else’s post and this would make my ego very happy.
lol
Kareng,
No.
Scales,
Ok.
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;49961]Kareng,
No.[/QUOTE]
I was wondering in what way is it different to you
I can use the ego without being identified with it.
How do you do that Amir?
Through self-observation, it happens. But it cannot be done.
I don’t see how that answers it.
Are you saying you can write things that appear to show ego but because you know it through self observation, you can ignore it?
If Amir is using his ego, then who is Amir then?