Should we Abandon Materialism and go into the wilderness

Spirituality Religion
#1

This is in answer to Surya’s post in the Bramacharya thread. I felt it needed to be in a new thread under a better title.

Surya Says (in reply to a post I placed before this etc)

Here is what Buddha did not try: He did not maintain his married and aristocratic lifestyle and do 1-2 hours of meditation in the day, while spending the rest of the day doing other things.

He left his palace and his family in search of masters. He was initiated into various practices by masters and he finally reached enlightenment 10 years later.

What I am talking about here is not an extreme. It is a choice that every soul is going to have to have make eventually when they become dispassionate about the material world. Every master has had to make this choice, including the Buddha.

The reality many of you are going to have to face is you are not living a spiritual life. You are just as ordinary as everybody else in the world. You are just as vulnerable as they are to vice. You have the same desires as them. You participate in the same world as them and contribute to the same problems of the world, just as they do.

I have the humility to accept this. I do not see the world any differently to how the average joe on the street sees it. I thus have no right to pretend I am any more holier than they are. Just because I do meditation now and again, just because I read the Vedas, does not make me spiritual.

There are genuine spiritual people in the world, and they are the ones who have renounced this world and dedicated themselves to spiritual practice. They spend hours upon hours everyday in meditation, contemplation, self-analysis. They are driven by a thrist for self-realization and everything they do moves in that direction. It is these people who truly becomes self-transformed. It is these people that really stand apart from the rest. It is these people that return to the world as masters and guide the rest.

You and I are nothing compared to these people.

Kareng says:

Buddha left his family, secure in knowledge they would be materially cared for. Would he have done this if he’d known his wife and children would have suffered greatly? I will dare to answer for him, No.
He spent years with Masters who guided him into ways that he discovered were unnecessary.

He formed his own spiritual movement, the middle way. Buddhism… Moving away from many of the Hindu ‘ways’ and when the Hindus tried to claim him as one of theirs, it was rejected.

Out of the millions who practice ‘genuine’ spirituality, as you call it, how many of them are great?
How many of them step into the world and make a significant impact on their fellow men? Instead what really happens is they have an impact on the few, not the masses.
Only a rare few have touched the hearts of millions.
What new concepts will you bring to the world that the greats haven’t?
A tweeking of this and a tweeking of that, perhaps a new school of thought of an existing belief system that many have done with a few to follow them.

Perhaps how to combine the modern material world with spiritual enlightenment would be a new one instead of disappearing into the wilderness and coming out with old worn concepts that don’t work in this world, today.

Abandonment of the material world means what?
Begging for food off the backs of others hard labour
Growing your own food, well material people like me do a lot of that
Finding an Ashram with the New agers you reject
Setting up a tent in a remote spot hoping you wont be moved off the land
Finding a cave in the mountains…yes a possibility but you will need food
Going into the jungle hoping the snakes etc don’t get you
And illness…will you still except material medical help if you need it? Wont that be hypocrisy if you do?

Why should enlightenment not be progressive?
Buddha found fault in well set theories and practices of the time.
Our time is a highly material one and needs to be encompassed in efforts towards enlightenment not rejected, if you want to make an new impact on the world spiritually

#2

The notion that Buddha was anti-Hindu is a highly romantic idea that is found in Buddhism in order to set themselves apart from the mainstream tradition of Hinduism. It is very similar to how the Hare Krishna insist they are not Hindu, just so that they maintain separate identity. The same with Sikhs.

Buddha was not a Buddhist. He had no idea what “Buddhism” was because only after his death was the religion of Buddhism formed. Buddha was born a Hindu, in India(present day Nepal) and he had a Hindu education. Then when he left his palace, he met Hindu masters who taught him Hindu methods. Buddha was able to achieive enlightenment using those Hindu methods. Then after he had reached enlightenment, he echoed Hindu teachings. He taught life was suffering, he taught that desire was the root cause of this suffering, and that the only way to end this suffering was to practice the 8 fold path, which was Yoga which was ancient even in his time.

Buddha did not innovate, he perpetuated an already ancient spiritual tradition which went back into unknown antiquity. There is nothing Buddha taught that cannot already be found in the Vedic literature. Ironically, even in the oldest of the Vedic literature Rig Veda, it talks about that knowledge of being ancient even then.

And therein lies the real reality of spirituality. Spirituality is not a progressive field of knowledge and nor is it limited to any locality. It is knowledge that is ageless and placeless. Spiritual people do not come to innovate, they come to perpetuate the same ageless wisdom. It can be summed up very easily

There is a transcendent and absolute reality(variously called Nirvana, Atman, Brahman, Shiva, Purusha Turiya, Absolute, god, Tao) that is the very purpose of life for all humans to realise. However, this reality is denied to us because our senses and mind distort it, enmeshing us within the duality of planes, where we wander from lifetime to lifetime, suffering endlessly. In order to return to this absolute reality we must gain control of our senses and mind and undo the distortion. This is variously known as: extinguishing all desire, stilling the mind, balancing the solar and lunar channels, self-realization, receiving the holy spirit.

This is the ageless and placeless wisdom which is being taught on every planet in the universe. It is never going to change. Even in the next cycle of the universe this wisdom will remain the same. When I reach enlightenment, I will be teaching exactly the same wisdom. Why? Buddha answered this himself. It is sheer compassion for the suffering of others that compells you to share this wisdom with others. You have been there yourself and you know how to get people out of it.

What the worlds needs today is not just a swami. It needs a Maharishi, an avatar, a Buddha that will light the lamps of all souls living today.

Now you may ask what is the difference then between an enlightened master teaching the ageless wisdom or just reading it directly from scripture. The difference is the enlightened masters speech, action and thoughts are spiritually charged. Even his/her silence transforms.

It is not what you say, it is who says it :wink:

#3

But Surya…something is wrong I feel…the ageless and placeless wisdom has been taught for centuries and with the communication systems we have in place, still, they cannot reach the masses to take action…Look at India, the capital of the wisdom being offered shall we say, look where it is going now…Materialism…,and look what it has been through in terms of hunger, lack of medicines, why are you so sure that an enlightened Master teaching ageless wisdom will reach the billions when all the others havent…why?
Why should we have faith in this and what you are saying when the ‘capital’ of it all is turning to Materialism.

PS…I wont go into the differences between Buddhism and Hinduism…but there are enough to make it a separate movement, however, I am in agreement as to its foundations.

#4

Hey Guys, I posted this in the Bramacharya thread but am reposting it here because it is a response to previous posts in this drection.

Surya, I must address some of your statements in reply to my post. I was defending the position of trying to live a spiritual life while still being worldly, because there are soe many people who want to do this. I made no boasts.

Your comment:

“In a 24 hour day if all you do is 2 hours of yoga a day, then the rest of day you spend working, socialising and entertaining yourself you will get nowhere.You will move up the spiritual ladder at a painfully slow snail peace, which will be counted in number of lifetimes.”"

And? You are still moving up! If a person is forbidden from attempting to be spiritual unless they totally renounce wordly life then many would chose worldy life and would not be moving up at all. Moving up slowly is better than standing still or going backwards in my opinion.

I do have a Guru, he has initiated me into the lofty practice of spontaneous Pranopasana, Shaktipat spontaneous Yoga Sadhana, but he also instructed me to work until I am older before renouncing the world. In the meantime he recommends practicing sadhana and cultivating detachment from worldy pleasures by giving up the things I mentioned. I do this joyfully as part of my Sadhana.
Krishna also advises that a person should work with detachment, rather than give up work but still have attachments. Real renunciation is dedicating all actions to God and giving up the fruit of all actions. In this sense it matters little if one works or not. Many people give up work but still have strong wordly attachments.

Whether we admit it or not we all have egos. I am a young man, and naturally I have egotistical desires to do good and accomplish things. If I were to renounce the world now then those lingering desires would distract me as a Sanyas. This could cause me to feel the need to preach to others, impose my opinions, seek out fame and prestige, hanker for followers and devotees, all sorts of self agrandizement to fulfil the desires for accomplishment. All of this would distract from the real purpose of renunciation, which is to pursue sadhana. My Guru and his Guru before him each spent decades in total seclusion practicing their Yoga Sadhana all day every day. Thus they needed the support of the community for their food and shelter. Most sanyasis do not follow this path, and in my opinion that is why you see so many holy men preaching different things all claiming to be right. If they all gave themselves completely to Sadhana all day every day then they would all find the same truth.

I am not at a point where I can spend all day every day in Sadhana. When I try, distractions arise, so that is why I should work. My desires for accomplishment are satisfied by doing my job, and as I face challenges at work and in Sadhana I learn to trust the Lord ever more. In this way my faith and fortitude is strengthened every day. Like I said before, this also keeps me from distractions and going off course.

In my opinion this is the benefit of pursuing spirituality while still living the worldly life. Our wordly desires can be gradually eliminated and if we let go of the desire for the fruits of our actions then our present work will not result in future bondage. Eventually we will be ready for constant sadhana and then at that point can adopt meaningful renunciation.

Back to sexuality. I am 25 years old, am healthy and fully functioning, have had much sex while in relationships before, and still attract interest from women. I have not acted on a single sexual impulse for almost 3 years now. In my opinion this would be impossible without the grace and blessings of God. I do this purefully for the pursuit of detachment and liberation and therefore I do consider this part of my Sadhana.
If one is to pursue real spirituality they should cultivate detchment from all wordly and physical bonds, including the senses and their objects. A sanyas is meant to be supported so they can pursue liberation and thereby uplift society. Should society work to support someone so they can not work but still pursue sensual pleasures?

#5

hmm, I like what you wrote Sadhak Ted. To maintain detachment and be in the spiritual world functioning is, to my point of view, much more difficult and a stronger sadhana. Having lived in an ashram for years and had to work and make bill payments for many other years for me one is much easier than the other. It is very easy to meditate all day long and practice, asanas kriyas japa pranayama, prayer kirtan the realization of god fasting purifying ect in a monastery or even in the forest. While making dinner for children and in Walmart, now that is discipline and God has a sense of humour.

#6

And? You are still moving up! If a person is forbidden from attempting to be spiritual unless they totally renounce wordly life then many would chose worldy life and would not be moving up at all. Moving up slowly is better than standing still or going backwards in my opinion.

This is where a belief in reincarnation can create a very lazy and complacent attitude to ones spiritual growth. Your path is similar to the mimassa path, do goods deeds in this life by practicing karma yoga. This is a valid path, it will produce growth, but it will produce the slowest growth of them all. When Adisankacharya debates with the great mimassa giant, he uses the analogy of the parrot in the cage who was being fed pepper. Why was it sufferong on pepper when it could have sweets? If the parrot were to simply walk on its legs to the next country it could well eventually get there, but had it just opened it wings and flew there it would have got there in a fraction of the time.

Sankara won that debate and demonstrated that not every path has equal level of merit. The path of the karma yogi is a long, painfully slow and arduous path akin to the parrot eating pepper and walking to the next country. The path of the jnana-raja yogi(king of yogas) is shorter, quicker and easier. Akin to the parrot eating sweets and flying to the next country. Why would any sensible person want to choose a longer, slower and harder path over a shorter, quicker and easier path?

Recall, while Krishna does indeed talk about karma yoga, he calls the path of jnana the highest and it is the first yoga that Krishna prescribes to him. However, Krishna recognises that Arjuna did not have the dharma of a jnanai, he had the dharma of a karmi, bound by duties to serve the people. Thus Krishna prescribed to Arjuna the best path according to the current dharma of Arjuna.

But Krishna himself was on a different path. He too had to go to the ashama for a long period and practice. In fact there is no single spiritual master in the history of India that did not have to go through the stage of renouncing material life in search of spiritual life. Rama had to go to the ashram of Vasistha; Krishna too went to ashrama. Buddha also did the same. So did Mahavira. So did Guru Nanaka. So did Swami Yogananda, Swami Vivekananda. So did countless Risis and Munis throughout time.

Renunication is always a precursor to the spiritual life. Lord Shiva is the very epitome of a reunciant having retired to the mountains, smeared himself with ashes and renounced everything. In Christianity, Jesus very clearly says in the bible that anybody who has any kind of possession and attachment is not worthy of his path.

I say to him who cannot renounce and yet wants the benefits of a spiritual life that he is not worthy of the path. He is trying to go left and right at the same time. Such a person is a fool that is going to stagnate, or even regress in their spiritual evolution. Such a person is really lazy and complacent - wants everything, but wants to give up nothing.

Your own guru is being compassionate to your condition, realising that you have a lot of work to do as a householder before you move on. However, ultimately even he wants you to take sanyasa. In the end if you want to rise to the same level yours guru is at, you will will need to do what he did and his guru, and his gurus guru did: decades in total seclusion practicing their Yoga sadhana all day every day.

I have not had the fortune of having a guru guide me during the householder phase. So I have taken my own path to work on my desires, the left hand path. I can safely say that my desire and distractions for material things are attenuated enough, for me to take sanyasa now. I had sanyasa yoga from the day I was born supposedly. I have never really had a desire for the material, but rather I was starved of the emotional. The last few years of my life have been working on the emotional. If when I go to India, the guru I have chosen and who has chosen me, tells me to spend more time as a householder, I will gladly oblige.

To sum up, what this all boils down to is this: You will need to renounce one day to begin a genuine spiritual life, but you have to be ready to do that. You cannot live a spiritual life whilst living a material life though, and such people are merely deluding themselves. You can get ready for a spiritual life though by living a material life. Just as I have done with my acquisition of knowledge over a decade and working on my desires.

#7

From The Imitation of Christ:

MY CHILD, you cannot always continue in the more fervent desire of virtue, or remain in the higher stage of contemplation, but because of humanity’s sin you must sometimes descend to lower things and bear the burden of this corruptible life, albeit unwillingly and wearily. As long as you wear a mortal body you will suffer weariness and heaviness of heart. You ought, therefore, to bewail in the flesh the burden of the flesh which keeps you from giving yourself unceasingly to spiritual exercises and divine contemplation.

In such condition, it is well for you to apply yourself to humble, outward works and to refresh yourself in good deeds, to await with unshaken confidence My heavenly visitation, patiently to bear your exile and dryness of mind until you are again visited by Me and freed of all anxieties. For I will cause you to forget your labors and to enjoy inward quiet. I will spread before you the open fields of the Scriptures, so that with an open heart you may begin to advance in the way of My commandments. And you will say: the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the future glory which shall be revealed to us.

http://www.leaderu.com/cyber/books/imitation/imb3c51-59.html#RTFToC281

#8

Surya, in what ways will you be living then, on your true spiritual path

Abandonment of the material world means what?

Begging for food off the backs of others hard labour
Growing your own food, well material people like me do a lot of that
Finding an Ashram with the New agers you reject
Setting up a tent in a remote spot hoping you wont be moved off the land
Finding a cave in the mountains…yes a possibility but you will need food
Going into the jungle hoping the snakes etc don’t get you
Living from the home your parents worked for?
And illness…will you still except material medical help if you need it?

A Buddhist that was faced with two paths to take and could not decide what to do.
The choice was to go back to literally a cave/mountain life in virtual solitude or, to join a community to assist others in their lives
The Buddhist was advised to choose the hardest, the Buddhist chose the latter.

Mostly Repeated from text way up.

#9

The spiritual path begins as soon as you find a guru who initiates you into their tradition. What happens next depends on the guru and the tradition. The guru becomes your second parent.

I am not about to second guess what will happen next. This is for my future guru to decide.

I will say this much and this may explain why I have chosen India as the country where I will do this. India has historically been the country where everybody has gone in search of gurus to practice spirituality. It still is the spiritual capital of the world today, with the highest number of ashrams, gurus and spiritual traditions and they still enjoy the same level of respect from society in general as they did before. The ashrams are both state and privately funded.

It is no freebie though. If you are going to stay in the ashram you need to do seva. Spiritual work is hard work. You get up at 4am in the morning, for the rest of the day you work very hard - often in solitude - on your yoga sadhana and doing seva and go to sleep at 9:30. You eat the most humblest of meals.

Hindu ashramas are more colorful than Buddhist and Christian monestaries. There are regular discourses by the guru, regular festivals and regular kirtans. As there is a major festival in India every few weeks, this keeps life interesting. There are also opportunities to learn Indian music and drama.

The best way to describe a Hindu ashram is a space for maximum and holistic spiritual development.

#10

Shame on the state funding such things when people are suffering extreme poverty in parts of India.

India is rising to materialism Surya, these things will become less and less attractive.
Eventually India will be like the west where the Church loses its followers for material comforts. I have said before. Religions thrive where there is poverty, remove the poverty and you weaken the need for a religion. Then only a few will listen.

#11

Shame on the state funding such things when people are suffering extreme poverty in parts of India.

That is rather surprising. You think it is actually a waste of money to fund spiritual organizations which will produce spiritual people to go out there in the world and illuminate it :smiley:

The Indian state funds many things that are less worthy of spending. Space missions, Commonwealth/Olympic games, weapons. No different to any other state in the world. The USA funds wars around the world :wink:

While, it is true that India is becoming a highly materialistic country and this has been the general trajectory this country has been taking for the past century. It is also true that India maintains its spiritual culture. It still is the spiritual capital of the world, with the highest number of ashrams and spiritual treaditions. India is still a highly religious society. Religion permeates every aspect of Indian culture.

India has not followed the same path of modernity the Western countries have, where religion has lost its influence as the country has modernized. Rather religion and science are developing concurrently. Much less, a waning, in the last decade a huge resurgence of Yoga, Ayurveda, Vedas has happened in India. More and more ashrams, temples and gurukuls are popping up all over India. There are also projects now to revive the ancient Nalanda Buddhist university, the Maitreya project of building a giant statue of the Buddha, the Vedanta university and other such projects.

The truth is India has always been a rich country, but highly spiritual and religious at the same time. In the past few centuries India became a poor country, but it was still a highly religious country. In the current century India is once again becoming a rich country and spirituality is returning.

Spirituality thrives in rich countries.

#12

A few comments I wanted to add about this belief that because reincarnation is true we can take it easy in this life. What is the rush, as eventually everybody is going to get salvation anyway.

Lets put it this way. You are in prison, and you can get out of prison either in 1 year, 5 years or 10 years depending on your merit. You are going to get out this is guaranteed, but you can get out sooner if you have the right merit. Why would you want to suffer 9 more years in prison when you can get out in 1 year?

Reincarnation is not as short that it can be counted in years. The Buddhists say the amount of times we reincarnate is akin to a bird holding a scraf flying over the Himalayan mountains again and again. The number of time it takes for the mountain to wither away each time the scarf passes over is equivalent to how many times you are reborn.

The Vedas give a good news though. It is possible to achieive enlightenment in this lifetime alone. This is why the Vedas remain silent on reincarnation for the most part. Perhaps it is a blessing being ignorant about reincarnation. The Vedas declare very boldy, “I know that supreme being, the supreme reality underlying all. Know that supreme self in this lifetime alone. There is no other way”

Eventually whatever lifetime you finally realise the Self in, it will be known in one lifetime not several. There is no such thing as person that endures between lifetimes. Your personality dies at death forever. What continues is only the souls with its whole host of samskaras and then that essence takes on a new body with an entirely new personality, inheriting those samskaras.

There is no guarantee that the personality your soul inherits is going to be anything like your old personality. In the previous life your personality may have been a famous singer in Germany, in the next life you maybe born a begger in Calcutta. In this lifetime you were born in a free country where you could come to learn about spirituality, in the next lifetime you maybe born in the middle east, in an Islamic country torn by civil war where you get no access to spirituality. It maybe several lifetimes in between before you even get that opportunity again.

It is said fortunate is that soul that gets to hear the Vedas, because not every soul is lucky enough and has to undergo many lifetimes before they get another opportunity. The one who believes that opportunity will always come knocking is a fool. You might only ever get one opportunity in your life, and if you miss it then, you may never get it again in this life.

You may have to wait one lifetime or 100 lifetimes before you get access to the ageless and placeless wisdom again. So think about this before you start gambling with your soul.

It is a huge mistake to think that the soul is always evolving upwards from life time to lfietime. No, the soul can evolve and devolve from lifetime to lifetime. It is even possible as Krishna explains in the Gita, to lose ones human form. The game of snakes and ladders was invented to encapsulate this teaching. You can find a ladder that takes you up, but hit a snake and go all the way down, even at the very last moment before self-realization.

So foolish is that person who says that they got forever to reach salvation so they will take it easy now. Moreover, do they not realise that if they are going to say it in this, “I will take it easy for now” then what makes them think that they won’t be saying it in their next life, and next… and next… and next. In Yoga it is said the causal body contains all our samskaras, and everytime we repeat any kind of statement or resolve it strengthens that samskara.

As soon as the soul via the medium of a personality learns about the Vedas and thence about the ultimate goal of realising that self and accepts it, but makes up excuses not to do it, that soul is condemning itself. It no longer has the excuse of ignorance. What is more important that which is eternal and infinite or that which is temporal and finite?

You have a job at Microsoft, married happily with kids, loads of friends, an excellent salary, a mansion, the finest BMW, and several holiday breaks in the year. Then one day you learn about the Vedas - you hear about the Self - the supreme, absolute transcendent reality that your soul has been desperately seeking through many lifetimes. The realization of this self will bring you eternal happiness, knowledge and power.

Now what do you do? Do you continue living your life of luxury in this lifetime and 1-2 hours of Yoga and meditation in the day, which will not get you to the Self in this lifetime and maybe in the next life you go from luxury to poverty - or do you say, “Screw all this temporal luxury and pleasure, I got to get back to this Self NOW”

Those who do not thirst for the Self with the same intensity as they would thrist for water if they were dehydrated or oxygen if they were suffocating - will not get the Self. Period. They have no right to say they are living a spiritual life if they are not yearning for the Self and dedicated to realising it.

#13

Surya says …That is rather surprising. You think it is actually a waste of money to fund spiritual organizations which will produce spiritual people to go out there in the world and illuminate it

Kareng says…
Oh my goodness yes Surya I do…I think that India, capital of all that spiritual knowledge has suffered greatly. What illumination has ever had enough impact on it to remove the extreme poverty and suffering that many have and still do experience on an everyday basis? For the state to pay for money for Ashrams is astonishing, they need to get their priorities in order.

#14

Just over 1% of India’s national income is spent on healthcare, its one of the lowest proportions in the world. This what I mean by priorities. Illumination does not fix that and if you go back even further, illumination has never aided the extremes India has suffered for century’s . I wont even go into the corrupt government.

I looked this up after the debate about Mother Theresa and Suhas comment.
This figure is current 2010.

Priorities Surya, priorities!

#15

I personally do not find it astonishing. I cannot think of a higher priority than the spiritual development of a nation. Besides the state only partially fund some ashrams. Most ashrams are privately funded, run by volunteers and donations.

I find comments like the state in countries like India should fund the poor rather irresponsible and ignorant. Just because India has poor people, does not mean it should lose focus of every other priority. There is needs for defense, infrastructure, research and development, industry. So the budget needs to be balanced out. In any case the situation is hardly bleak, every year tens of millions of poor Indians are lifted out of poverty and enter into the middle class. India has one of the largest middle class populations in the world and by 2020 will have about 500-600 million middle class population.

#16

I would also like to add that you seem to very ignorant of what these ashrams do. Almost all ashrams in India are involved in social upliftment projects. They build hospitals, schools, are involved in environmental protection, animal, civil, human and women rights projects, disaster relief, charity among other things.

In fact these ashrams have contributed more to social upliftment in India than state has with taxpayers money.

#17

First of all Surya I am fully aware that India is rising in its material position in the world.
I am not being ignorant of my observation and understanding that just over 1% investment in healthcare for over a 1 billion population is absurd.

Being part Indian and very proud of it…i wonder about the effectiveness, in reality, in real life of the devotion of its people to their practices and where it actually gets them for it.

You have made it clear that to be truly spiritual is only for the few who take it seriously and abandon their material attachments

You deride the ‘New Agers’ who try to balance. Money and WORK and Yoga say.

But you get irritated if someone beams in on the facts of extreme poverty struggle and suffering in your own country stating that MONEY needs to be spent on defence, space etc…MONEY. and defend it with all based MONEY talk that your telling us to abandon.

So Ashrams do good service to the poor as part of Seva…why not spend the MONEY to support Ashrams directly on the poor ? There are thousands of Ashrams

My decision to combine Money, with spiritual practice will make sure that the future generations in Britain will be fed properly via my tax money.If I abandon that and others follow a situation will develop where the facilities the government has for providing healthcare to all, education to all, food for all, disability support for all will crumble and suffering will rise. No illuminations will stop it.

#18

Again you’re looking at this simplistically.

Most Indians are not practicing spirituality. They are wordly just as anybody else is in the world. Those who are genuinely practicing spirituality in thousands of Ashrams throughout India, are the biggest forces for social progress in society. They are behind the building of hospitals, schools and behind many projects for social and planetary well being. Therefore to answer your question, what does the devotion to practice actually get is very clear from the track record of ashrams in India.

If there are any places worthy of more funding in the world it is the ashrams of India. They, most of which are funded privately by donations, have contributed so much on such small funds. Imagine, what they could contribute if they had bigger funds.

Ashrams double up as both places for maximum and holistic spiritual development and as well as places which motivate social change and social upliftment. There is no more noble institution in this world.

I am not getting irritated by you pointing out poverty and suffering in India. I am, however, not impressed with your rather simplistic assessment of it. The poverty situation has been improving for the past two decades and radical progress has been made. It is not going to change overnight, because the damage the British did to the Indian economy was extreme. It has taken a long time to put things rights. Look at the progress from 95% people living in abject poverty in 1947 to 500-600 million people living in the middle class by 2020 and people living under the national poverty line under 20%.

India is a rising superpower and as a rising superpower it has several priorities, not just lifting the population out of poverty. It must gain military parity with China by modernizing its aging defence forces, this will cost more than 150 billion dollars. It must improve its infrastructure in all cities to bring them world class status. It must invest in research and development to become a leader in science and technology.

This is not my job to worry about, and it certainly isn’t yours either. Whatever the ones in charge in India are doing is working very well. The economy is growing at 8% a year, millions of jobs are being created every year, and tens of millions are joining the middle class every year. It is easy to see this is a county on the march as soon as you step in Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore, Chennai.

In any case here we are discussing spirituality not economics. The topic matter is does spirituality demand you renounce the material life. You say that you want to make sure that Britain will be fed properly via tax payers money. Fine, then you have chosen a wordly life. Stop pretending you are spiritual.

The soul’s purpose is self-realization not to feed Britain. The soul existed even before Britain existed as a country and will continue to exist long after Britain as a country ceases to exist. Such temporal matters such as politics and economics of a country do not concern the soul. You may not even be born in Britain in your next life, you maybe born in China and then China economics and politics will become your interests. The soul frankly does not give a damn what is happening in the world. It is here for only one reason - and one reason only - realise the Self.

You will not realise the Self in this lifetime because you have chosen wordly interests over the interests of the soul and therefore you are not spiritual.

#19

Spiritual pride is so non spiritual.

#20

Pride is nothing more than an acknowledgement of your achivements. There is nothing wrong with pride.