[QUOTE=justwannabe;29638]… maybe they should not even have clothes…[/QUOTE]
I kinda like this idea!
Anyway, I don’t know what I think about the initial question but let me say that it was one of my old yoga teachers that helped me become vegetarian at the time becasue he gave me a less absolutist answer than many other, more hard-core vegans would have. I was at that age when you think a lot about the choices you make in life (later you just make them) and I had some questions about vegetarianism from an ethical point of view. One of them was that plants are living beings too, aren’t they?
“Well, you’re right” he said. “Everything is in fact alive and being vegetarian doesn’t solve all problems, it’s a compromise. It is the one we make because it makes sense and because it is easy”. He didn’t try to fool me, and that’s what helped me take the step. I’ve been vegetarian since I was 17 basically. I’m vegan now and it fells like a natural step. Had someone at that time told me that I had to become vegetarian I am sure that I would still be eating meat.
[QUOTE=gentle_yogini;30449]Even if you eat meat- doing so less frequently and only buying free rang organic, so you are making the best choice for the earth and respecting the animal itself.[/QUOTE]
It is kind of hard to be respectful and kill at the same time…
If you’re vegetarian and eating an apple imported from New Zealand with enough embodied energy to kill twelve pelicans, and I’m eating a chicken I raised in my backyard in a sustainable manner, who is practicing ahimsa and love (for this earth) and who is not?
In my opinion, until yogis start to wake up and see how destructive their unsustainable lifestyles are and work to change their ways, they shouldn’t preach love and ahimsa to others.
Agreed. When I kill a chicken, I do so consciously and with awareness that yes, that chicken is in fact suffering as I take its life. You can’t kill with respect but you can kill with gratitude.
[quote=Yogini Lacee;30510]Read the book “The World Peace Diet”. If you are a yogi/yogini, you practice Ahimsa, that includes being a vegetarian.
Om Shanti.[/quote]
It’s just plain not that simple. If your fruits and vegetables aren’t locally grown and organic, make absolutely no mistake, you are NOT practicing ahimsa.
Living off only locally grown vegetables and fruits is going to be either very complicated or lead to a very restricted diet. One that I think for instance Lierre Keith (a former vegan-taliban turned vegan-hater for those who don’t know) tried to live on and nearly killed herself while doing so.
Sometimes I think the problem is that ahimsa is turned into a political system, rather than a personal choice. I don’t want to kill animals because I have done it and I know what it does to me. Something evil in me is nourished by it.
Becoming vegetarian at 17 was a personal choice and one of my oldest and dearest friends from childhood both hunts and catches fish. He also already back then lived much closer to nature than I have ever done. I don’t doubt it for one second that he knows more about ecology than I do and that he knows more about living a sustainable life.
In the end, to me it doesn’t matter. I’m not yet ready to either raise and actually kill animals for food, nor to buy the flesh of animals that others have killed. But I’m still not doing it to save the planet, the animals or anyone else but myself, from myself.
I think everyone should be a vegetarian because it supports sustainable living, live stalk take up some ridiculous amount of yielded crops every year. Just google it you could find some stats.
If you live in a land where you don’t have grocery stores and live off of the land, then, meh, do what you need to adapt to that life style.
Considering that prior to the advent of the combustion engine, people lived pretty much only on local grown food, I’m going to have to call false on that one.
[quote=GreenTree;30536]I think everyone should be a vegetarian because it supports sustainable living, live stalk take up some ridiculous amount of yielded crops every year. Just google it you could find some stats.
If you live in a land where you don’t have grocery stores and live off of the land, then, meh, do what you need to adapt to that life style.[/quote]
Being vegetarian does NOT support sustainable living. If your fruits and vegetables are not locally grown, then they have a considerable amount of embodied energy which is the opposite of sustainable. And if they’re not organic, then the fertilizer and/or pesticides are petroleum based which is not sustainable. And that’s me just simplifying things. It’s all about locally grown food using sustainable practices. It doesn’t matter if it’s meat or veggies, but it must be local and sustainable.
We are at the point where we have to think about the earth, animals, and future generations before we think about ourselves otherwise each of those is going to have big troubles ahead. Our current generations MUST make an enormous transition towards living sustainably. It’s going to happen either way but if we make the conscious decision to live sustainably rather than having it forced upon us by our lack of willingness to change, then it’ll be a much easier transition.
Well Elisabeth you’ve certainly opened Pandora’s Box with this topic. I personally try not to allow myself to slide into opinion but rather remain in the context of yoga so that I can speak from it (not for it). This requires a bit of work because as we all know the tint of our viewpoint can be a very stubborn stain.
Further I think it is important for us to realize that it really doesn’t matter one iota what we think everyone else should do, what we think yoga teachers should do, what we think our neighbor should do. Instead it is perhaps more fruitful to find a position where we can wish for each other that we find the right things for each of us during our very brief stay here AND that we are evolving with the time we are given. In teaching yoga, this concept helps the students to connect with and live from their svadharma or personal mission. It is only when we accept that there is no one answer that we can truly claim an open mind and thus real freedom for ourselves physically, emotionally, and spiritually.
It saddens me that we allow a definition of that path of yoga to include telling others how they should live when we could be empowering them and encouraging them to find what resonates in their living. Some should sit on thrones while others should roll in gutters, and all points in between.
I personally have a very limited diet. This is not to laud it above others as superior nor is it to pontificate about the benefits in the hopes there will be other adopters to make ME feel more comfortable. It is simply a matter of knowing myself and finding those things that work for me in my living.
“Should yoga teachers be vegetarian?” allows for a dualistic interpretation. On the one hand this could be saying “eating less meat is likely to be healthier for many human beings” while on the other hand it could be saying “in order to serve yoga as a conduit for its wisdom there cannot be any animal flesh in your body”. I trust that it is obvious how these two play out just on their very sentence structure. The first I can support as it is allowing. The second I cannot, as it is dictatorial, blatantly untrue, and lacks the very compassion (for human beings in addition to animals) we are tossing about on the waters of our dogma - though there’s nothing wrong with having a diet free of meat. It is quite lovely, in fact.
David, that’s easy, for you to say living in Hawaii, eating locally for you is much simpler than eating locally for those of us that live in areas where that simply isn’t possible, we would indeed be malnourished and unable to teach and practice yoga.
It all boils down to doing the very best you can. At each moment, we are all doing our best. period.
But the question was should yoga teachers be vegetarians, it wasn’t a question about sustainable living, buying locally, or if EVERYONE should be vegetarian (which I think we all should but that’s beside my point", it was a question of practicing what you preach, and if you can’t see the difference between eating something that has been slaughtered and buying produce from another state, then you need to reevaluate your thought process.
Blessings.
I had a bunch of things to say about this thread, but then I spent the entire weekend meditating on the concept of upeksha. The time I could offer towards passing judgment on those who pass judgement is much better used in the refinement of the activities of my own mind. I feel better already.
[QUOTE=David;30540]Considering that prior to the advent of the combustion engine, people lived pretty much only on local grown food, I’m going to have to call false on that one.[/QUOTE]
Well, here in Sweden people weren’t precisely living only on the veggies and fruits they could grow locally. Vegetarianism came to my part of the world relatively late and without imported fruits and vegetables it simply wouldn’t happen, I’m quite certain of that. So, it does depend on where you live, half false then.
:rolleyes:
Let’s say then that everyone went back to living off locally grown food. What would that do to the world’s economy? While I can see your point I can’t see how we’re ever going to make that transition unless forced to. People who can produce and export and thus earn money and change their lives are going to do that if they get the chance. People who can buy something exotic, tasty or interesting that they do not have around them are going to do that too.
Lierre Keith makes some good points in her book about “the vegetarian myth” all up until she tries to paint the picture of her vision for the world. It’s frightening, she’s asking for a reduction of the human population to about 10 million. 10 million on the whole planet… not even Hitler coming back from the grave could achieve that!
Anyway, it’s already been said but might be worth repeating. I eat what I eat because it makes me feel comfortable, or less uneasy. It’s a comnpromise, it’s not for everyone and it may or may not be good for the world. I think of how early lay buddhists realized that as farmers they’d be digging in the ground killing worms so they simply changed their business to being merchants instead, becasue it involved less direct killing for them. That says something about the concept of ahimsa that I think we often forget here in the west.
[quote]Originally Posted by Yogini Lacee
Read the book “The World Peace Diet”. If you are a yogi/yogini, you practice Ahimsa, that includes being a vegetarian.
Om Shanti.
It’s just plain not that simple. If your fruits and vegetables aren’t locally grown and organic, make absolutely no mistake, you are NOT practicing ahimsa.[/quote]a few thoughts:
Let’s say your fruits and vegetables are locally grown and organic. They’re even transported by horse instead of by car. Everything is perfect. So you’re practicing Ahimsa. Neat.
One day, though, the horse that transports apples accidently steps on a mouse on it’s way. The mouse dies, but you never become aware of that. You eat the apples. Are you or are you not practicing Ahimsa? Tricky, isn’t it.
Let’s say you’re aware of embodied energy and all, but to create yourself a healthy diet, you just cannot obtain all the food you need locally grown and organic, because it simply isn’t offered. What now?
I agree with Yogini Lacee and think that you’re practicing Ahimsa if you do the best you can. If you, for example, are unaware of embodied energy and such, how are you violent? Without a doubt, you won’t find a sound explanation for this. If you are aware and have a choice to get the good apples and then choose to get the apple that kills pelicans, then you’re obviously violent. But if you’re not, the killing that occurs due to feeding yourself is accidently, like the death of the mouse trampled by the horse that delivers your local organic apples. The same counts for killing animals: If you have no other way to feed, then kill the animal. Eskimos have to do so. But - why again would that be impossible? - do so with respect and not violent.
Hi justwannabe,
Instead of an opposing viewpoint, I wish to expand on your viewpoint. well if all yoga teachers should be vegetarian, based on the need to eliminate suffering in animals, then there are other things they should be as well. so to expand from your thought all should be vegetarian, they should also not have cars, for roads are built where animals should be living, the oil we use to fuel them has caused oil spills and many animal deaths. All the teachers should not have computers for making of them and the energy they use helps to pollute the environment.
and so on, quite funny, particularly the segment about levitation.
Let me expand that viewpoint the other way: If it’s not so important to be vegetarian, because then you would have to do the next and the next and the next thing, with which one - from that “expanded” viewpoint - really cannot be bothered, then what should a Yogi do at all? If one does not have to be a vegetarian, because that’d lead to the next thing, why would they not as well smoke 50 cigarettes per day? Or steal? Betray? Rape? And kill? The killing Yoga-teacher could as well say “well, what if I stopped to kill? I would have to become a vegetarian, oh my god! And then I would have to quit driving a car! Stop watching TV! No longer use a computer! Levitate! So no, it’s perfectly allright for me to kill. And rape. And betray. And steal. Smoke 50 cigarettes per day. I don’t even do Asanas and all that stuff! :D”
Absurd, isn’t it.
Hi InnerAthlete,
Well Elisabeth you’ve certainly opened Pandora’s Box with this topic. I personally try not to allow myself to slide into opinion but rather remain in the context of yoga so that I can speak from it (not for it). This requires a bit of work because as we all know the tint of our viewpoint can be a very stubborn stain.
Further I think it is important for us to realize that it really doesn’t matter one iota what we think everyone else should do, what we think yoga teachers should do, what we think our neighbor should do. Instead it is perhaps more fruitful to find a position where we can wish for each other that we find the right things for each of us during our very brief stay here AND that we are evolving with the time we are given. In teaching yoga, this concept helps the students to connect with and live from their svadharma or personal mission. It is only when we accept that there is no one answer that we can truly claim an open mind and thus real freedom for ourselves physically, emotionally, and spiritually.
It saddens me that we allow a definition of that path of yoga to include telling others how they should live when we could be empowering them and encouraging them to find what resonates in their living. Some should sit on thrones while others should roll in gutters, and all points in between.
you speak of “us” all the time, maybe you can enlighten me why you, for example, allow a definition of that path of yoga to include telling others how they should live when you could be empowering them and encouraging them to find what resonates in their living. You say it saddens you: Then why don’t you quit your self-saddening behavior? Is it because the tint of your viewpoint is a very stubborn stain…?
Rethorics; gotta love em. Hypocrisy…? Not so much. :-/
You’re absolutely right that growing things in Hawaii can be pretty easy. When I arrived in Hawaii, I was blown away by how widespread the sustainability movement is there. I thought I was going to be teaching people about sustainability, but the opposite was mostly true. There are absolutely beautiful things going on in Hawaii at present. As such, I was mostly preaching to the choir and making little difference on a wide scale. That’s part of the reason I am no longer living in Hawaii and will soon be moving to a high population density area so that I can lead by example and show people that think it’s impossible that it is indeed possible if you get creative.
Agreed. I’m not sustainable at present. In fact, I’m far from it. In many ways I’m a hypocrite because I’m not yet living what I’m preaching. BUT, I’m aware of the problem and I’m making a conscious decision to change and transition to a sustainable lifestyle. One of my jobs is to bring people awareness of the problem. If I do that and they still choose to ignore the problem, then they’re not doing their best. Period
One of the arguments for being vegetarian in this thread was the practice of ahimsa. My argument is that we’re absolutely destroying our world (and all those animals you so dearly love) because of our unsustainable lifestyles. No, you’re not directly killing an animal because you’re eating vegetables that are transported from far away. But make no mistake, you’re indirectly killing animals and destroying our earth by not eating local, organic food. As soon a petroleum is involved in the process, ahimsa is thrown out the window. We’re just so comfortable and unwilling to change our ways that we choose to bury our heads in the sand. And understandably so, it is HARD to change.
Let’s say that 10 years from now the price of gasoline has gone up SO MUCH that those fruits and vegetables you import are no longer affordable to you. What will you do then?
It would change the economy for sure. And it may get rough for awhile. But considering our economies are just one giant house of cards or ponzi scam anyway, it’d be a change for the better in my opinion. I do agree with you that most won’t change unless forced. My goal is to lead by example and talk about what must change so that those who are conscious and strong enough can begin to change before they’re forced to. That way the coming transition will be easier for them, their loved ones, and neighbors.
People throw out different numbers as to what human population is sustainable. I’m not smart enough to know what that number is, but my hope is that humans can find a harmonious balance between technology and sustainability. If we make the conscious decision to move towards sustainability, that will be much more likely.
It’s MUCH more comfortable to not be sustainable, I agree with that. It’s much easier to bury your head in the sand and pretend that you’re not indirectly killing worms. It’s like the gulf oil spill. We’re blaming everyone we can but very few are looking at the real culprits in the mirror.
[quote=Quetzalcoatl;30565]One day, though, the horse that transports apples accidently steps on a mouse on it’s way. The mouse dies, but you never become aware of that. You eat the apples. Are you or are you not practicing Ahimsa? Tricky, isn’t it.
Let’s say you’re aware of embodied energy and all, but to create yourself a healthy diet, you just cannot obtain all the food you need locally grown and organic, because it simply isn’t offered. What now?[/quote]
You’re all aware of what embodied energy is now. That’s all I’m trying to do, bring awareness. It’s now up to each of you to decide what’s best.
Hopefully my tone in this thread is not being misinterpreted. If you’re reading what I saying in a tone that is angry, please try reading it with a tone that, if anything, is pleading.
[QUOTE=David;30574]Let’s say that 10 years from now the price of gasoline has gone up SO MUCH that those fruits and vegetables you import are no longer affordable to you. What will you do then?[/QUOTE]
Don’t know, move to Sri Lanka perhaps… Seriously, I don’t know and neither does anyone else. When, and if that happens we face so many problems along the way we’re gonna have to deal with it collectively.
However, who says that in 10 years we’ll be as dependant on oil as we are right now?
It would change the economy for sure. And it may get rough for awhile. But considering our economies are just one giant house of cards or ponzi scam anyway, it’d be a change for the better in my opinion. I do agree with you that most won’t change unless forced. My goal is to lead by example and talk about what must change so that those who are conscious and strong enough can begin to change before they’re forced to. That way the coming transition will be easier for them, their loved ones, and neighbors.
Maybe you’re doing the right thing.
People throw out different numbers as to what human population is sustainable. I’m not smart enough to know what that number is, but my hope is that humans can find a harmonious balance between technology and sustainability. If we make the conscious decision to move towards sustainability, that will be much more likely.
The thing is that if we try to reach this number, no matter if we’re talking 10 million or 500 million here, by a controlled effort we’re gonna need dictaorship on a level never seen before in the history of man.
I’m saying that the goal in itself is wrong, I’m saying that it’s a goal we can’t reach by making a conscious descision and thus let’s aim for another one, let’s be realistic about what we actually can do.
It’s MUCH more comfortable to not be sustainable, I agree with that. It’s much easier to bury your head in the sand and pretend that you’re not indirectly killing worms. It’s like the gulf oil spill. We’re blaming everyone we can but very few are looking at the real culprits in the mirror.
It’s not exactly what I meant (and you knew that) but fair enough.
However, you are perhaps avoiding the point that ahimsa might not have started out as this grand idea about how to make the world as perfect place, it is just as much the individual’s choice for him or herself to enable the walking on a certain path. Others may not be able to walk it, maybe that’s unfair, but maybe that doesn’t matter so much either.
You’re all aware of what embodied energy is now. That’s all I’m trying to do, bring awareness. It’s now up to each of you to decide what’s best.
Hopefully my tone in this thread is not being misinterpreted. If you’re reading what I saying in a tone that is angry, please try reading it with a tone that, if anything, is pleading.
I’m now sort of aware of what embodied energy is and I don’t think it has that much to do with ahimsa. I didn’t read you in an angry tone.
Indeed we would be facing a lot of problems. When the price of gas rose to $4.00 a gallon here in the USA we started facing a lot of problems. Once peak oil hits (the point where demand is still high but there are diminishing amounts of oil being taken from the ground) you can count on the price of gas going up significantly. Some think that point has already been reached, others think its just around the corner.
That’s why I’m preaching what I’m preaching. We can’t count on some major technological leap forward. We, as the populace, have to start to change our ways. Everything from eating locally to cutting down or eliminating how much we drive. As you said, we have to deal with it collectively. So why not start now?
[quote=Terje;30576]The thing is that if we try to reach this number, no matter if we’re talking 10 million or 500 million here, by a controlled effort we’re gonna need dictaorship on a level never seen before in the history of man.
I’m saying that the goal in itself is wrong, I’m saying that it’s a goal we can’t reach by making a conscious descision and thus let’s aim for another one, let’s be realistic about what we actually can do.[/quote]
I’m not saying we have to reduce our population. I don’t know if we do or not. I figure nature will take care of that for us. I know that I’ve made the personal decision and sacrifice not to have children though.
[quote=Terje;30576]However, you are perhaps avoiding the point that ahimsa might not have started out as this grand idea about how to make the world as perfect place, it is just as much the individual’s choice for him or herself to enable the walking on a certain path. Others may not be able to walk it, maybe that’s unfair, but maybe that doesn’t matter so much either.
I’m now sort of aware of what embodied energy is and I don’t think it has that much to do with ahimsa. I didn’t read you in an angry tone.[/quote]
You may be right that embodied energy and ahimsa don’t go hand in hand. Or me combining the two may indeed work. Who knows, it doesn’t really matter in my opinion. What I do know is that whether or not yoga teachers (and practitioners) choose to be vegetarian, I hope they can take it one step further and choose to work towards sustainability. As many people look up to yoga teachers and practitioners and will follow their example, the change that we NEED to undergo can begin thanks to some amazing yogis.
[QUOTE=David;30578]Indeed we would be facing a lot of problems. When the price of gas rose to $4.00 a gallon here in the USA we started facing a lot of problems. Once peak oil hits (the point where demand is still high but there are diminishing amounts of oil being taken from the ground) you can count on the price of gas going up significantly. Some think that point has already been reached, others think its just around the corner.
That’s why I’m preaching what I’m preaching. We can’t count on some major technological leap forward. We, as the populace, have to start to change our ways. Everything from eating locally to cutting down or eliminating how much we drive. As you said, we have to deal with it collectively. So why not start now?
I’m not saying we have to reduce our population. I don’t know if we do or not. I figure nature will take care of that for us. I know that I’ve made the personal decision and sacrifice not to have children though.
You may be right that embodied energy and ahimsa don’t go hand in hand. Or me combining the two may indeed work. Who knows, it doesn’t really matter in my opinion. What I do know is that whether or not yoga teachers (and practitioners) choose to be vegetarian, I hope they can take it one step further and choose to work towards sustainability. As many people look up to yoga teachers and practitioners and will follow their example, the change that we NEED to undergo can begin thanks to some amazing yogis.[/QUOTE]
Gallons confuse me, we use liters over here, but I’d say that in Sweden the price of gas is long since much higher than anything you’ve ever imagined. We’re not really seeing any huge problems from that. People just drive a little less, that’s all. Oil prices are gonna have to rise a lot more before we drastically hcange our habits IMO.
As for myself, I don’t use a car. I don’t even own one. I use my bicycle to work and public transport for the rest. This is true for Europe as a whole since this part of the world was not built around everyone having a car.
I think you’re right that everyone should try to live more sustainably and I can’t really see the problem with starting out being vegetarian. I try my best to buy organically grown vegetables and fruits. Maybe start with one small step first and then do the rest, huh?
I belief vegetarianism choose you, you don’t choose to become a vegetarian. I think a lot needs to change and happen in your consciousness and your body before vegetarianism can choose you.
I also agree with David on living more sustainably, I think we cannot and shouldn’t shy away from that. I avoid buying food coming from Kenia and Zimbabwe and Israel in South Africa and now support our local farmers on a farmers market once a week. The produce is wonderful and the variety amazing and I have discovered much cheaper, I am saving now about R300 (about $30-40) a week on my shopping bill.
To Sunyuting,
I understand from your other posts that you had a bad experience with two of your yoga teachers and I am truly sorry for that. However, as Tony Tamer (another poster on this Forum) once said, be careful not to cast more shadows of doubt than Light. I am sure you have learned a lot from this experience and that you can use it to enlighten others in a positive way? We should be careful not to speak from a place of anger and fear as that does more harm to our Self than actually to others around us.
Hypocrisy…? Not so much. :-/