Should Yoga teachers be Vegetarian

[David]

David, that’s easy, for you to say living in Hawaii, eating locally for you is much simpler than eating locally for those of us that live in areas where that simply isn’t possible, we would indeed be malnourished and unable to teach and practice yoga.

You’re absolutely right that growing things in Hawaii can be pretty easy. When I arrived in Hawaii, I was blown away by how widespread the sustainability movement is there. I thought I was going to be teaching people about sustainability, but the opposite was mostly true. There are absolutely beautiful things going on in Hawaii at present. As such, I was mostly preaching to the choir and making little difference on a wide scale. That’s part of the reason I am no longer living in Hawaii and will soon be moving to a high population density area so that I can lead by example and show people that think it’s impossible that it is indeed possible if you get creative.

It all boils down to doing the very best you can. At each moment, we are all doing our best. period.

Agreed. I’m not sustainable at present. In fact, I’m far from it. In many ways I’m a hypocrite because I’m not yet living what I’m preaching. BUT, I’m aware of the problem and I’m making a conscious decision to change and transition to a sustainable lifestyle. One of my jobs is to bring people awareness of the problem. If I do that and they still choose to ignore the problem, then they’re not doing their best. Period

But the question was should yoga teachers be vegetarians, it wasn’t a question about sustainable living, buying locally, or if EVERYONE should be vegetarian (which I think we all should but that’s beside my point", it was a question of practicing what you preach, and if you can’t see the difference between eating something that has been slaughtered and buying produce from another state, then you need to reevaluate your thought process.

One of the arguments for being vegetarian in this thread was the practice of ahimsa. My argument is that we’re absolutely destroying our world (and all those animals you so dearly love) because of our unsustainable lifestyles. No, you’re not directly killing an animal because you’re eating vegetables that are transported from far away. But make no mistake, you’re indirectly killing animals and destroying our earth by not eating local, organic food. As soon a petroleum is involved in the process, ahimsa is thrown out the window. We’re just so comfortable and unwilling to change our ways that we choose to bury our heads in the sand. And understandably so, it is HARD to change.

Well, here in Sweden people weren’t precisely living [I]only[/I] on the veggies and fruits they could grow locally. Vegetarianism came to my part of the world relatively late and without imported fruits and vegetables it simply wouldn’t happen, I’m quite certain of that. So, it does depend on where you live, half false then.

Let’s say that 10 years from now the price of gasoline has gone up SO MUCH that those fruits and vegetables you import are no longer affordable to you. What will you do then?

Let’s say then that everyone went back to living off locally grown food. What would that do to the world’s economy? While I can see your point I can’t see how we’re ever going to make that transition unless forced to. People who can produce and export and thus earn money and change their lives are going to do that if they get the chance. People who can buy something exotic, tasty or interesting that they do not have around them are going to do that too.

It would change the economy for sure. And it may get rough for awhile. But considering our economies are just one giant house of cards or ponzi scam anyway, it’d be a change for the better in my opinion. I do agree with you that most won’t change unless forced. My goal is to lead by example and talk about what must change so that those who are conscious and strong enough can begin to change before they’re forced to. That way the coming transition will be easier for them, their loved ones, and neighbors.

Lierre Keith makes some good points in her book about “the vegetarian myth” all up until she tries to paint the picture of her vision for the world. It’s frightening, she’s asking for a reduction of the human population to about 10 million. 10 million on the whole planet… not even Hitler coming back from the grave could achieve that!

People throw out different numbers as to what human population is sustainable. I’m not smart enough to know what that number is, but my hope is that humans can find a harmonious balance between technology and sustainability. If we make the conscious decision to move towards sustainability, that will be much more likely.

Anyway, it’s already been said but might be worth repeating. I eat what I eat because it makes me feel comfortable, or less uneasy. It’s a comnpromise, it’s not for everyone and it may or may not be good for the world. I think of how early lay buddhists realized that as farmers they’d be digging in the ground killing worms so they simply changed their business to being merchants instead, becasue it involved less direct killing for them. That says something about the concept of ahimsa that I think we often forget here in the west.

It’s MUCH more comfortable to not be sustainable, I agree with that. It’s much easier to bury your head in the sand and pretend that you’re not indirectly killing worms. It’s like the gulf oil spill. We’re blaming everyone we can but very few are looking at the real culprits in the mirror.

[quote=Quetzalcoatl;30565]One day, though, the horse that transports apples accidently steps on a mouse on it’s way. The mouse dies, but you never become aware of that. You eat the apples. Are you or are you not practicing Ahimsa? Tricky, isn’t it.

Let’s say you’re aware of embodied energy and all, but to create yourself a healthy diet, you just cannot obtain all the food you need locally grown and organic, because it simply isn’t offered. What now?[/quote]
You’re all aware of what embodied energy is now. That’s all I’m trying to do, bring awareness. It’s now up to each of you to decide what’s best.

Hopefully my tone in this thread is not being misinterpreted. If you’re reading what I saying in a tone that is angry, please try reading it with a tone that, if anything, is pleading.

[Terje]

I’ll reply to my part of this, OK

[QUOTE=David;30574]Let’s say that 10 years from now the price of gasoline has gone up SO MUCH that those fruits and vegetables you import are no longer affordable to you. What will you do then?[/QUOTE]

Don’t know, move to Sri Lanka perhaps… Seriously, I don’t know and neither does anyone else. When, and if that happens we face so many problems along the way we’re gonna have to deal with it collectively.

However, who says that in 10 years we’ll be as dependant on oil as we are right now?

It would change the economy for sure. And it may get rough for awhile. But considering our economies are just one giant house of cards or ponzi scam anyway, it’d be a change for the better in my opinion. I do agree with you that most won’t change unless forced. My goal is to lead by example and talk about what must change so that those who are conscious and strong enough can begin to change before they’re forced to. That way the coming transition will be easier for them, their loved ones, and neighbors.

Maybe you’re doing the right thing.

People throw out different numbers as to what human population is sustainable. I’m not smart enough to know what that number is, but my hope is that humans can find a harmonious balance between technology and sustainability. If we make the conscious decision to move towards sustainability, that will be much more likely.

The thing is that if we try to reach this number, no matter if we’re talking 10 million or 500 million here, by a controlled effort we’re gonna need dictaorship on a level never seen before in the history of man.

I’m saying that the goal in itself is wrong, I’m saying that it’s a goal we can’t reach by making a conscious descision and thus let’s aim for another one, let’s be realistic about what we actually can do.

It’s MUCH more comfortable to not be sustainable, I agree with that. It’s much easier to bury your head in the sand and pretend that you’re not indirectly killing worms. It’s like the gulf oil spill. We’re blaming everyone we can but very few are looking at the real culprits in the mirror.

It’s not exactly what I meant (and you knew that) but fair enough.

However, you are perhaps avoiding the point that ahimsa might not have started out as this grand idea about how to make the world as perfect place, it is just as much the individual’s choice for him or herself to enable the walking on a certain path. Others may not be able to walk it, maybe that’s unfair, but maybe that doesn’t matter so much either.

You’re all aware of what embodied energy is now. That’s all I’m trying to do, bring awareness. It’s now up to each of you to decide what’s best.

Hopefully my tone in this thread is not being misinterpreted. If you’re reading what I saying in a tone that is angry, please try reading it with a tone that, if anything, is pleading.

I’m now sort of aware of what embodied energy is and I don’t think it has that much to do with ahimsa. I didn’t read you in an angry tone.

[David]

Don’t know, move to Sri Lanka perhaps… Seriously, I don’t know and neither does anyone else. When, and if that happens we face so many problems along the way we’re gonna have to deal with it collectively.

Indeed we would be facing a lot of problems. When the price of gas rose to $4.00 a gallon here in the USA we started facing a lot of problems. Once peak oil hits (the point where demand is still high but there are diminishing amounts of oil being taken from the ground) you can count on the price of gas going up significantly. Some think that point has already been reached, others think its just around the corner.

However, who says that in 10 years we’ll be as dependant on oil as we are right now?

That’s why I’m preaching what I’m preaching. We can’t count on some major technological leap forward. We, as the populace, have to start to change our ways. Everything from eating locally to cutting down or eliminating how much we drive. As you said, we have to deal with it collectively. So why not start now?

[quote=Terje;30576]The thing is that if we try to reach this number, no matter if we’re talking 10 million or 500 million here, by a controlled effort we’re gonna need dictaorship on a level never seen before in the history of man.

I’m saying that the goal in itself is wrong, I’m saying that it’s a goal we can’t reach by making a conscious descision and thus let’s aim for another one, let’s be realistic about what we actually can do.[/quote]
I’m not saying we have to reduce our population. I don’t know if we do or not. I figure nature will take care of that for us. I know that I’ve made the personal decision and sacrifice not to have children though.

[quote=Terje;30576]However, you are perhaps avoiding the point that ahimsa might not have started out as this grand idea about how to make the world as perfect place, it is just as much the individual’s choice for him or herself to enable the walking on a certain path. Others may not be able to walk it, maybe that’s unfair, but maybe that doesn’t matter so much either.

I’m now sort of aware of what embodied energy is and I don’t think it has that much to do with ahimsa. I didn’t read you in an angry tone.[/quote]
You may be right that embodied energy and ahimsa don’t go hand in hand. Or me combining the two may indeed work. Who knows, it doesn’t really matter in my opinion. What I do know is that whether or not yoga teachers (and practitioners) choose to be vegetarian, I hope they can take it one step further and choose to work towards sustainability. As many people look up to yoga teachers and practitioners and will follow their example, the change that we NEED to undergo can begin thanks to some amazing yogis.

[Terje]

[QUOTE=David;30578]Indeed we would be facing a lot of problems. When the price of gas rose to $4.00 a gallon here in the USA we started facing a lot of problems. Once peak oil hits (the point where demand is still high but there are diminishing amounts of oil being taken from the ground) you can count on the price of gas going up significantly. Some think that point has already been reached, others think its just around the corner.

That’s why I’m preaching what I’m preaching. We can’t count on some major technological leap forward. We, as the populace, have to start to change our ways. Everything from eating locally to cutting down or eliminating how much we drive. As you said, we have to deal with it collectively. So why not start now?

I’m not saying we have to reduce our population. I don’t know if we do or not. I figure nature will take care of that for us. I know that I’ve made the personal decision and sacrifice not to have children though.

You may be right that embodied energy and ahimsa don’t go hand in hand. Or me combining the two may indeed work. Who knows, it doesn’t really matter in my opinion. What I do know is that whether or not yoga teachers (and practitioners) choose to be vegetarian, I hope they can take it one step further and choose to work towards sustainability. As many people look up to yoga teachers and practitioners and will follow their example, the change that we NEED to undergo can begin thanks to some amazing yogis.[/QUOTE]

Gallons confuse me, we use liters over here, but I’d say that in Sweden the price of gas is long since much higher than anything you’ve ever imagined. We’re not really seeing any huge problems from that. People just drive a little less, that’s all. Oil prices are gonna have to rise a lot more before we drastically hcange our habits IMO.

As for myself, I don’t use a car. I don’t even own one. I use my bicycle to work and public transport for the rest. This is true for Europe as a whole since this part of the world was not built around everyone having a car.

I think you’re right that everyone should try to live more sustainably and I can’t really see the problem with starting out being vegetarian. I try my best to buy organically grown vegetables and fruits. Maybe start with one small step first and then do the rest, huh?

[lakurumau]

I reckon Inner Athlete hit the nail on the head. What he said.

[Pandara]

Elisabeth,

I belief vegetarianism choose you, you don’t choose to become a vegetarian. I think a lot needs to change and happen in your consciousness and your body before vegetarianism can choose you.

I also agree with David on living more sustainably, I think we cannot and shouldn’t shy away from that. I avoid buying food coming from Kenia and Zimbabwe and Israel in South Africa and now support our local farmers on a farmers market once a week. The produce is wonderful and the variety amazing and I have discovered much cheaper, I am saving now about R300 (about $30-40) a week on my shopping bill.

• To Sunyuting,

I understand from your other posts that you had a bad experience with two of your yoga teachers and I am truly sorry for that. However, as Tony Tamer (another poster on this Forum) once said, be careful not to cast more shadows of doubt than Light. I am sure you have learned a lot from this experience and that you can use it to enlighten others in a positive way? We should be careful not to speak from a place of anger and fear as that does more harm to our Self than actually to others around us.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Hi Sunyuting,

Why do yogis have such a problem with eating meat and violence? I dont get it. God made animals for man to eat - read the bible.
maybe, but this is Yoga, so maybe you should read at least the Wikipedia-article to gain some insights to the concept.

God loves violence, he created the UFC.
According to Wikipedia, Nick Williams, Art Davie, Rorion Gracie and Robert Meyrowitz created the UFC; if you have other sources, maybe you should edit the article…

I love violence - its fun.
I agree that it can be fun. Please explain why you think and/or feel it is.

So why all the non love toward meat eaters and violence?
I’d say that it’s non love toward meat eating, that act, you know, not the persons performing it. A significant difference. The people not performing it are seen as immature, naiv, not-understanding, weak and such.

Personally I think that Hatha Yoga as explained by the Yoga Sutra wants to avoid a guilty conscious which would disturb one’s meditation. I had recently explained that viewpoint in detail here. Basically it means that one who is violent will experience some conflict and needs time to process their violent actions to clarify that conflict (like “was it right? What else could I have done? What about the one I hurt?”, etc). That equals movements of the mind, which are unwanted in Hatha Yoga.

But there is also another explanation: Violence causes pain and pain is a signal. A signal tells the receptor of it what they should or should not do. For example will you experience pain when you cut yourself. Cutting yourself is actually the problem, because it will endanger your existence. You might already bleed to death or have the functionality of your body constrained. This is unwanted, so nature invented a wide spectrum of pain to guide creatures through life and tell them where they should be cautious.

Some feelings tell you what’s wrong, some what’s dangerous, some what’s good, some what absolutely necessary. There are obviously positive signals too, like when a food tastes very good. You want to eat it then and naturally, that food would be good for you (unfortunately, taste nowadays is perverted by greedy people to make money, but that’s another story). One of the best positive feelings comes with sex, have a guess why.

Get it so far?

Now: Along with a spiritual practice often comes an awareness that not only no being is an isolated entity, but that all existence is closely related and - in a way - even one single unit. That’s in the bible too, you should focus your studies on the new testament and the teachings of Jesus, who updated the old testamentical “eye for an eye” to “if you get smacked on one cheek, expose the other”.

With such a consciousness, compassion arises. That also is in the bible, when Jesus says something like “what you do to the lowest of my brothers, you do to me”. If you understand yourself as part of a larger unity and the borders between you and other entities fade away, you really feel the pain that others feel. So if you see someone suffering, you don’t think that’s funny, but feel the suffering as your own, you receive the signal that’s telling the other being something is wrong, as your own signal, telling you that something is wrong.

And so you will abstain from hurting other as much as you abstain from hurting yourself, and you will try to reduce or end the suffering of others, as much as you try that with your own suffering.

Makes sense, doesn’t it?

Hi Pandara,

We should be careful not to speak from a place of anger and fear as that does more harm to our Self than actually to others around us.
“we” should also be quite careful what “we” accuse others of. What makes you believe Sunyuting intends to do harm to others around him with his speakings? You might also consider that there are better ways to enlighten a person than just threating them. Read the above for an example of what I mean.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Hi Sunyuting,

If god created everything, then he created the UFC. How about that.
well, since Nick Williams, Art Davie, Rorion Gracie and Robert Meyrowitz created the UFC, god obviously did not create everything.

As far as yoga goes - I got the concept.
Then maybe you wish to lay out what you don’t understand about it. I’ll explain it then.

Fighting is cheap fun, you dont have to have a bat and ball. Yoga is also a fighting base and so the study is educational.
Many occupations are cheap fun, but I thought you were talking about violence. How is violence a pleasure for you? Is it fun to break stuff? Or faces?

And even Jesus got mad. He flipped out in the temple. I love that story.
Are you mad as hell? Then stick your head out of the window instead of becoming part of what makes you mad. Just a suggestion, though.

[Pandara]

[quote=Quetzalcoatl;30621]
Hi Pandara,

“we” should also be quite careful what “we” accuse others of. What makes you believe Sunyuting intends to do harm to others around him with his speakings? You might also consider that there are better ways to enlighten a person than just threating them. Read the above for an example of what I mean.[/quote]

I am really sorry if you perceive this as an accusation, it was and is not intended to be an accusation.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Hi Pandara,

I am really sorry if you perceive this as an accusation, it was and is not intended to be an accusation.
oh, I was wrong! Well have a look:

• To Sunyuting,

I understand from your other posts that you had a bad experience with two of your yoga teachers and I am truly sorry for that. However, as Tony Tamer (another poster on this Forum) once said, be careful not to cast more shadows of doubt than Light.
But noone is casting shadows of doubt.

I am sure you have learned a lot from this experience and that you can use it to enlighten others in a positive way?
But noone is using their bad experiences to enlighten others in a negatvie way.

We should be careful not to speak from a place of anger and fear
But noone is speaking from a place of anger and fear.

as that does more harm to our Self than actually to others around us.
But noone is trying to harm others around them.

You were just making some contextless smalltalk here, I get it now. Makes sense, since a minute before this contextless little speech you said

Yoga also teach us respect for the paths of others and I think that is important to apply. My partner in life is on a totally different path than mine and neither is better than the other. All paths are equal and no matter how we may judge it, it is always the most appropriate path for the individual.
We think, Pandara, that we have a lot to learn, that we are not even headed in the right direction yet, that we lie to ourselves and others too. I think that we should step away from our vanity and that we should realize and acknowledge who we really are and where we really stand and what we really feel and that we should accept this and work with reality, instead of surpressing ourselves and denying ourselves and pretending to be something more evolved. Because what we are will always sneak through our fassades anyway and it will disgust us away.

Unfortunately, we can’t accept what we are, because we’d think that’d throw us back on our great path of evolution and we really don’t want to start over from the beginning. So we will just see our discerning questions and comments as a momentary disturbance, that we should simply ignore, because we must be walking awesomenesses when we know some stuff about bones and ancient books and how to talk a little pretty. Every now and then we will present ourselves very surpised if we think we suck big time and we will assume that we must be somewhat mislead or sick inside to misjudge us so badly and we will find a few more pretty words to pretend some understanding, tolerance and sympathy of and for and with such spiritual infancy.

All along we will frequently lament how the real Yoga, that we represent, is watered down by us and how sad it makes us, that millions of us are involved with such a wonderful thing Yoga is, but we still make no difference and we still have no impact on society, because all we want is another slice of a lousy pie to cram down our greedy throats to blow up our already overly fat bellies even more.

Oh, how time passes when we’re enjoying ourselves… Now we must go and buy us some chakra-panties, so:

Namaste OM Shanti Hare Rama and a whole lot of loving blessings to us all! :lol:

[Pandara]

Q, thanks for all the assumptions about me and we. You are right about it all of course.

[mikesbytes]

My yoga teacher said "you have a life time to become perfect" which my case translates into "I have a life time to become perfect, but time is running out".

There are many valid points in this discussion, however nothing is black and white. I eat largely vegetarian and that is good for the environment as some state that 1/3 of greenhouse emissions are from cattle. However as David has pointed out, I should be looking for locally produced products, so to reduce the energy footprint amongst other benefits.

Yesterday when I was out riding I came upon a Wombat that was dead at the side of the HWY. What should I of done to be a better person?

1. left it where it was
2. move it off the roadside into the bush
3. taken it home and eaten it (assuming it was still fresh)
   

[David]

4. Bury it under a fruit tree. Yay for organic bone meal (phosphorus).

[khushvinder]

yoga also teach us respect for the paths of others and I think that is important to apply.

[CityMonk]

Yes… be vegetarian but not because of ambition to be a yoga teacher…

[concoulor3]

While Yoga and Buddhism are sepparte entities, they do have a strong intertwining thread. I find it interesting that no one has mentioned that Buddha died by eating bad pork. :rolleyes:

[mikesbytes]

CityMonk, your diagram reminds me of a story my yoga instructor told me. When she was training to become a yoga instructor, she was at a retreat where the food was rather…healthy. When the left they went straight into town and brought burgers and chips (fry’s).

concoulor3, Didn’t know that, you learn something new everyday. I live about 50mtrs from a Buddhist temple. On rubbish night I spotted one of the monks sneaking down the road putting bags of rubbish in other’s wheelie bins LOL. Kinda funny, the poor guy looked so guilty knowing he had been sprung. My bin is usually less than 1/4 fill, it would of been fine for him to put the rubbish in mine, all he needed to do was ask.

[AbdhijaKimberly]

Cleaners- make your own cleaners from vinegar and water, better for the environment, less packaging and shipping, cheaper!

I love making my own cleaners! :o I save so much money and I have a clear conscience as far as environmental impact is concerned. I would be happy to share some simple recipes for laundry soap and other cleaners if anyone is interested.

And, to stay on topic, I am currently a struggling meat addict who is trying desperatly to cut down on my meat consumption. :( I don’t know if I will ever be a full vegetarian or vegan, but I do feel the need to reduce my impact of suffering on animals. It is hard to change ingrained habits for sure!

[David]

Please DO share your recipes. But maybe start a new thread in this forum to do it. Thanks

[Mexico_Yoga]

My two cents:

While the vegetarian diet may be ideal in practicing ahimsa toward other beings, it may not always be the best for practicing ahimsa toward oneself. Even in Ayurveda, meat is sometimes in the diet to balance the doshas. People have different nutritional needs.

As a yoga teacher, accepting and encouraging others (including other yoga teachers) to be who they are and where they are in their own journey as it unfolds for them is much more interesting to me than telling them how they [I]should[/I] be or act. That, too, would be a variety of violence. If yoga takes hold in someone’s life, the yoga will do itself, and people will naturally gravitate towards the sustenance they need not only in diet, but in relationships, and all things human.

Excellent topic. Thanks for the discussion!