I had a bunch of things to say about this thread, but then I spent the entire weekend meditating on the concept of upeksha. The time I could offer towards passing judgment on those who pass judgement is much better used in the refinement of the activities of my own mind. I feel better already.
[QUOTE=David;30540]Considering that prior to the advent of the combustion engine, people lived pretty much only on local grown food, I’m going to have to call false on that one.[/QUOTE]
Well, here in Sweden people weren’t precisely living only on the veggies and fruits they could grow locally. Vegetarianism came to my part of the world relatively late and without imported fruits and vegetables it simply wouldn’t happen, I’m quite certain of that. So, it does depend on where you live, half false then.
:rolleyes:
Let’s say then that everyone went back to living off locally grown food. What would that do to the world’s economy? While I can see your point I can’t see how we’re ever going to make that transition unless forced to. People who can produce and export and thus earn money and change their lives are going to do that if they get the chance. People who can buy something exotic, tasty or interesting that they do not have around them are going to do that too.
Lierre Keith makes some good points in her book about “the vegetarian myth” all up until she tries to paint the picture of her vision for the world. It’s frightening, she’s asking for a reduction of the human population to about 10 million. 10 million on the whole planet… not even Hitler coming back from the grave could achieve that!
Anyway, it’s already been said but might be worth repeating. I eat what I eat because it makes me feel comfortable, or less uneasy. It’s a comnpromise, it’s not for everyone and it may or may not be good for the world. I think of how early lay buddhists realized that as farmers they’d be digging in the ground killing worms so they simply changed their business to being merchants instead, becasue it involved less direct killing for them. That says something about the concept of ahimsa that I think we often forget here in the west.
[quote]Originally Posted by Yogini Lacee
Read the book “The World Peace Diet”. If you are a yogi/yogini, you practice Ahimsa, that includes being a vegetarian.
Om Shanti.
It’s just plain not that simple. If your fruits and vegetables aren’t locally grown and organic, make absolutely no mistake, you are NOT practicing ahimsa.[/quote]a few thoughts:
Let’s say your fruits and vegetables are locally grown and organic. They’re even transported by horse instead of by car. Everything is perfect. So you’re practicing Ahimsa. Neat.
One day, though, the horse that transports apples accidently steps on a mouse on it’s way. The mouse dies, but you never become aware of that. You eat the apples. Are you or are you not practicing Ahimsa? Tricky, isn’t it.
Let’s say you’re aware of embodied energy and all, but to create yourself a healthy diet, you just cannot obtain all the food you need locally grown and organic, because it simply isn’t offered. What now?
I agree with Yogini Lacee and think that you’re practicing Ahimsa if you do the best you can. If you, for example, are unaware of embodied energy and such, how are you violent? Without a doubt, you won’t find a sound explanation for this. If you are aware and have a choice to get the good apples and then choose to get the apple that kills pelicans, then you’re obviously violent. But if you’re not, the killing that occurs due to feeding yourself is accidently, like the death of the mouse trampled by the horse that delivers your local organic apples. The same counts for killing animals: If you have no other way to feed, then kill the animal. Eskimos have to do so. But - why again would that be impossible? - do so with respect and not violent.
Hi justwannabe,
Instead of an opposing viewpoint, I wish to expand on your viewpoint. well if all yoga teachers should be vegetarian, based on the need to eliminate suffering in animals, then there are other things they should be as well. so to expand from your thought all should be vegetarian, they should also not have cars, for roads are built where animals should be living, the oil we use to fuel them has caused oil spills and many animal deaths. All the teachers should not have computers for making of them and the energy they use helps to pollute the environment.
and so on, quite funny, particularly the segment about levitation.
Let me expand that viewpoint the other way: If it’s not so important to be vegetarian, because then you would have to do the next and the next and the next thing, with which one - from that “expanded” viewpoint - really cannot be bothered, then what should a Yogi do at all? If one does not have to be a vegetarian, because that’d lead to the next thing, why would they not as well smoke 50 cigarettes per day? Or steal? Betray? Rape? And kill? The killing Yoga-teacher could as well say “well, what if I stopped to kill? I would have to become a vegetarian, oh my god! And then I would have to quit driving a car! Stop watching TV! No longer use a computer! Levitate! So no, it’s perfectly allright for me to kill. And rape. And betray. And steal. Smoke 50 cigarettes per day. I don’t even do Asanas and all that stuff! :D”
Absurd, isn’t it.
Hi InnerAthlete,
Well Elisabeth you’ve certainly opened Pandora’s Box with this topic. I personally try not to allow myself to slide into opinion but rather remain in the context of yoga so that I can speak from it (not for it). This requires a bit of work because as we all know the tint of our viewpoint can be a very stubborn stain.
Further I think it is important for us to realize that it really doesn’t matter one iota what we think everyone else should do, what we think yoga teachers should do, what we think our neighbor should do. Instead it is perhaps more fruitful to find a position where we can wish for each other that we find the right things for each of us during our very brief stay here AND that we are evolving with the time we are given. In teaching yoga, this concept helps the students to connect with and live from their svadharma or personal mission. It is only when we accept that there is no one answer that we can truly claim an open mind and thus real freedom for ourselves physically, emotionally, and spiritually.
It saddens me that we allow a definition of that path of yoga to include telling others how they should live when we could be empowering them and encouraging them to find what resonates in their living. Some should sit on thrones while others should roll in gutters, and all points in between.
you speak of “us” all the time, maybe you can enlighten me why you, for example, allow a definition of that path of yoga to include telling others how they should live when you could be empowering them and encouraging them to find what resonates in their living. You say it saddens you: Then why don’t you quit your self-saddening behavior? Is it because the tint of your viewpoint is a very stubborn stain…?
Rethorics; gotta love em. Hypocrisy…? Not so much. :-/
You’re absolutely right that growing things in Hawaii can be pretty easy. When I arrived in Hawaii, I was blown away by how widespread the sustainability movement is there. I thought I was going to be teaching people about sustainability, but the opposite was mostly true. There are absolutely beautiful things going on in Hawaii at present. As such, I was mostly preaching to the choir and making little difference on a wide scale. That’s part of the reason I am no longer living in Hawaii and will soon be moving to a high population density area so that I can lead by example and show people that think it’s impossible that it is indeed possible if you get creative.
Agreed. I’m not sustainable at present. In fact, I’m far from it. In many ways I’m a hypocrite because I’m not yet living what I’m preaching. BUT, I’m aware of the problem and I’m making a conscious decision to change and transition to a sustainable lifestyle. One of my jobs is to bring people awareness of the problem. If I do that and they still choose to ignore the problem, then they’re not doing their best. Period
One of the arguments for being vegetarian in this thread was the practice of ahimsa. My argument is that we’re absolutely destroying our world (and all those animals you so dearly love) because of our unsustainable lifestyles. No, you’re not directly killing an animal because you’re eating vegetables that are transported from far away. But make no mistake, you’re indirectly killing animals and destroying our earth by not eating local, organic food. As soon a petroleum is involved in the process, ahimsa is thrown out the window. We’re just so comfortable and unwilling to change our ways that we choose to bury our heads in the sand. And understandably so, it is HARD to change.
Let’s say that 10 years from now the price of gasoline has gone up SO MUCH that those fruits and vegetables you import are no longer affordable to you. What will you do then?
It would change the economy for sure. And it may get rough for awhile. But considering our economies are just one giant house of cards or ponzi scam anyway, it’d be a change for the better in my opinion. I do agree with you that most won’t change unless forced. My goal is to lead by example and talk about what must change so that those who are conscious and strong enough can begin to change before they’re forced to. That way the coming transition will be easier for them, their loved ones, and neighbors.
People throw out different numbers as to what human population is sustainable. I’m not smart enough to know what that number is, but my hope is that humans can find a harmonious balance between technology and sustainability. If we make the conscious decision to move towards sustainability, that will be much more likely.
It’s MUCH more comfortable to not be sustainable, I agree with that. It’s much easier to bury your head in the sand and pretend that you’re not indirectly killing worms. It’s like the gulf oil spill. We’re blaming everyone we can but very few are looking at the real culprits in the mirror.
[quote=Quetzalcoatl;30565]One day, though, the horse that transports apples accidently steps on a mouse on it’s way. The mouse dies, but you never become aware of that. You eat the apples. Are you or are you not practicing Ahimsa? Tricky, isn’t it.
Let’s say you’re aware of embodied energy and all, but to create yourself a healthy diet, you just cannot obtain all the food you need locally grown and organic, because it simply isn’t offered. What now?[/quote]
You’re all aware of what embodied energy is now. That’s all I’m trying to do, bring awareness. It’s now up to each of you to decide what’s best.
Hopefully my tone in this thread is not being misinterpreted. If you’re reading what I saying in a tone that is angry, please try reading it with a tone that, if anything, is pleading.
[QUOTE=David;30574]Let’s say that 10 years from now the price of gasoline has gone up SO MUCH that those fruits and vegetables you import are no longer affordable to you. What will you do then?[/QUOTE]
Don’t know, move to Sri Lanka perhaps… Seriously, I don’t know and neither does anyone else. When, and if that happens we face so many problems along the way we’re gonna have to deal with it collectively.
However, who says that in 10 years we’ll be as dependant on oil as we are right now?
It would change the economy for sure. And it may get rough for awhile. But considering our economies are just one giant house of cards or ponzi scam anyway, it’d be a change for the better in my opinion. I do agree with you that most won’t change unless forced. My goal is to lead by example and talk about what must change so that those who are conscious and strong enough can begin to change before they’re forced to. That way the coming transition will be easier for them, their loved ones, and neighbors.
Maybe you’re doing the right thing.
People throw out different numbers as to what human population is sustainable. I’m not smart enough to know what that number is, but my hope is that humans can find a harmonious balance between technology and sustainability. If we make the conscious decision to move towards sustainability, that will be much more likely.
The thing is that if we try to reach this number, no matter if we’re talking 10 million or 500 million here, by a controlled effort we’re gonna need dictaorship on a level never seen before in the history of man.
I’m saying that the goal in itself is wrong, I’m saying that it’s a goal we can’t reach by making a conscious descision and thus let’s aim for another one, let’s be realistic about what we actually can do.
It’s MUCH more comfortable to not be sustainable, I agree with that. It’s much easier to bury your head in the sand and pretend that you’re not indirectly killing worms. It’s like the gulf oil spill. We’re blaming everyone we can but very few are looking at the real culprits in the mirror.
It’s not exactly what I meant (and you knew that) but fair enough.
However, you are perhaps avoiding the point that ahimsa might not have started out as this grand idea about how to make the world as perfect place, it is just as much the individual’s choice for him or herself to enable the walking on a certain path. Others may not be able to walk it, maybe that’s unfair, but maybe that doesn’t matter so much either.
You’re all aware of what embodied energy is now. That’s all I’m trying to do, bring awareness. It’s now up to each of you to decide what’s best.
Hopefully my tone in this thread is not being misinterpreted. If you’re reading what I saying in a tone that is angry, please try reading it with a tone that, if anything, is pleading.
I’m now sort of aware of what embodied energy is and I don’t think it has that much to do with ahimsa. I didn’t read you in an angry tone.
Indeed we would be facing a lot of problems. When the price of gas rose to $4.00 a gallon here in the USA we started facing a lot of problems. Once peak oil hits (the point where demand is still high but there are diminishing amounts of oil being taken from the ground) you can count on the price of gas going up significantly. Some think that point has already been reached, others think its just around the corner.
That’s why I’m preaching what I’m preaching. We can’t count on some major technological leap forward. We, as the populace, have to start to change our ways. Everything from eating locally to cutting down or eliminating how much we drive. As you said, we have to deal with it collectively. So why not start now?
[quote=Terje;30576]The thing is that if we try to reach this number, no matter if we’re talking 10 million or 500 million here, by a controlled effort we’re gonna need dictaorship on a level never seen before in the history of man.
I’m saying that the goal in itself is wrong, I’m saying that it’s a goal we can’t reach by making a conscious descision and thus let’s aim for another one, let’s be realistic about what we actually can do.[/quote]
I’m not saying we have to reduce our population. I don’t know if we do or not. I figure nature will take care of that for us. I know that I’ve made the personal decision and sacrifice not to have children though.
[quote=Terje;30576]However, you are perhaps avoiding the point that ahimsa might not have started out as this grand idea about how to make the world as perfect place, it is just as much the individual’s choice for him or herself to enable the walking on a certain path. Others may not be able to walk it, maybe that’s unfair, but maybe that doesn’t matter so much either.
I’m now sort of aware of what embodied energy is and I don’t think it has that much to do with ahimsa. I didn’t read you in an angry tone.[/quote]
You may be right that embodied energy and ahimsa don’t go hand in hand. Or me combining the two may indeed work. Who knows, it doesn’t really matter in my opinion. What I do know is that whether or not yoga teachers (and practitioners) choose to be vegetarian, I hope they can take it one step further and choose to work towards sustainability. As many people look up to yoga teachers and practitioners and will follow their example, the change that we NEED to undergo can begin thanks to some amazing yogis.
[QUOTE=David;30578]Indeed we would be facing a lot of problems. When the price of gas rose to $4.00 a gallon here in the USA we started facing a lot of problems. Once peak oil hits (the point where demand is still high but there are diminishing amounts of oil being taken from the ground) you can count on the price of gas going up significantly. Some think that point has already been reached, others think its just around the corner.
That’s why I’m preaching what I’m preaching. We can’t count on some major technological leap forward. We, as the populace, have to start to change our ways. Everything from eating locally to cutting down or eliminating how much we drive. As you said, we have to deal with it collectively. So why not start now?
I’m not saying we have to reduce our population. I don’t know if we do or not. I figure nature will take care of that for us. I know that I’ve made the personal decision and sacrifice not to have children though.
You may be right that embodied energy and ahimsa don’t go hand in hand. Or me combining the two may indeed work. Who knows, it doesn’t really matter in my opinion. What I do know is that whether or not yoga teachers (and practitioners) choose to be vegetarian, I hope they can take it one step further and choose to work towards sustainability. As many people look up to yoga teachers and practitioners and will follow their example, the change that we NEED to undergo can begin thanks to some amazing yogis.[/QUOTE]
Gallons confuse me, we use liters over here, but I’d say that in Sweden the price of gas is long since much higher than anything you’ve ever imagined. We’re not really seeing any huge problems from that. People just drive a little less, that’s all. Oil prices are gonna have to rise a lot more before we drastically hcange our habits IMO.
As for myself, I don’t use a car. I don’t even own one. I use my bicycle to work and public transport for the rest. This is true for Europe as a whole since this part of the world was not built around everyone having a car.
I think you’re right that everyone should try to live more sustainably and I can’t really see the problem with starting out being vegetarian. I try my best to buy organically grown vegetables and fruits. Maybe start with one small step first and then do the rest, huh?
I belief vegetarianism choose you, you don’t choose to become a vegetarian. I think a lot needs to change and happen in your consciousness and your body before vegetarianism can choose you.
I also agree with David on living more sustainably, I think we cannot and shouldn’t shy away from that. I avoid buying food coming from Kenia and Zimbabwe and Israel in South Africa and now support our local farmers on a farmers market once a week. The produce is wonderful and the variety amazing and I have discovered much cheaper, I am saving now about R300 (about $30-40) a week on my shopping bill.
To Sunyuting,
I understand from your other posts that you had a bad experience with two of your yoga teachers and I am truly sorry for that. However, as Tony Tamer (another poster on this Forum) once said, be careful not to cast more shadows of doubt than Light. I am sure you have learned a lot from this experience and that you can use it to enlighten others in a positive way? We should be careful not to speak from a place of anger and fear as that does more harm to our Self than actually to others around us.
Why do yogis have such a problem with eating meat and violence? I dont get it. God made animals for man to eat - read the bible.
maybe, but this is Yoga, so maybe you should read at least the Wikipedia-article to gain some insights to the concept.
God loves violence, he created the UFC.
According to Wikipedia, Nick Williams, Art Davie, Rorion Gracie and Robert Meyrowitz created the UFC; if you have other sources, maybe you should edit the article…
I love violence - its fun.
I agree that it can be fun. Please explain why you think and/or feel it is.
So why all the non love toward meat eaters and violence?
I’d say that it’s non love toward meat eating, that act, you know, not the persons performing it. A significant difference. The people not performing it are seen as immature, naiv, not-understanding, weak and such.
Personally I think that Hatha Yoga as explained by the Yoga Sutra wants to avoid a guilty conscious which would disturb one’s meditation. I had recently explained that viewpoint in detail here. Basically it means that one who is violent will experience some conflict and needs time to process their violent actions to clarify that conflict (like “was it right? What else could I have done? What about the one I hurt?”, etc). That equals movements of the mind, which are unwanted in Hatha Yoga.
But there is also another explanation: Violence causes pain and pain is a signal. A signal tells the receptor of it what they should or should not do. For example will you experience pain when you cut yourself. Cutting yourself is actually the problem, because it will endanger your existence. You might already bleed to death or have the functionality of your body constrained. This is unwanted, so nature invented a wide spectrum of pain to guide creatures through life and tell them where they should be cautious.
Some feelings tell you what’s wrong, some what’s dangerous, some what’s good, some what absolutely necessary. There are obviously positive signals too, like when a food tastes very good. You want to eat it then and naturally, that food would be good for you (unfortunately, taste nowadays is perverted by greedy people to make money, but that’s another story). One of the best positive feelings comes with sex, have a guess why.
Get it so far?
Now: Along with a spiritual practice often comes an awareness that not only no being is an isolated entity, but that all existence is closely related and - in a way - even one single unit. That’s in the bible too, you should focus your studies on the new testament and the teachings of Jesus, who updated the old testamentical “eye for an eye” to “if you get smacked on one cheek, expose the other”.
With such a consciousness, compassion arises. That also is in the bible, when Jesus says something like “what you do to the lowest of my brothers, you do to me”. If you understand yourself as part of a larger unity and the borders between you and other entities fade away, you really feel the pain that others feel. So if you see someone suffering, you don’t think that’s funny, but feel the suffering as your own, you receive the signal that’s telling the other being something is wrong, as your own signal, telling you that something is wrong.
And so you will abstain from hurting other as much as you abstain from hurting yourself, and you will try to reduce or end the suffering of others, as much as you try that with your own suffering.
Makes sense, doesn’t it?
Hi Pandara,
We should be careful not to speak from a place of anger and fear as that does more harm to our Self than actually to others around us.
“we” should also be quite careful what “we” accuse others of. What makes you believe Sunyuting intends to do harm to others around him with his speakings? You might also consider that there are better ways to enlighten a person than just threating them. Read the above for an example of what I mean.
If god created everything, then he created the UFC. How about that.
well, since Nick Williams, Art Davie, Rorion Gracie and Robert Meyrowitz created the UFC, god obviously did not create everything.
As far as yoga goes - I got the concept.
Then maybe you wish to lay out what you don’t understand about it. I’ll explain it then.
Fighting is cheap fun, you dont have to have a bat and ball. Yoga is also a fighting base and so the study is educational.
Many occupations are cheap fun, but I thought you were talking about violence. How is violence a pleasure for you? Is it fun to break stuff? Or faces?
And even Jesus got mad. He flipped out in the temple. I love that story.
Are you mad as hell? Then stick your head out of the window instead of becoming part of what makes you mad. Just a suggestion, though.
“we” should also be quite careful what “we” accuse others of. What makes you believe Sunyuting intends to do harm to others around him with his speakings? You might also consider that there are better ways to enlighten a person than just threating them. Read the above for an example of what I mean.[/quote]
I am really sorry if you perceive this as an accusation, it was and is not intended to be an accusation.
I am really sorry if you perceive this as an accusation, it was and is not intended to be an accusation.
oh, I was wrong! Well have a look:
To Sunyuting,
I understand from your other posts that you had a bad experience with two of your yoga teachers and I am truly sorry for that. However, as Tony Tamer (another poster on this Forum) once said, be careful not to cast more shadows of doubt than Light.
But noone is casting shadows of doubt.
I am sure you have learned a lot from this experience and that you can use it to enlighten others in a positive way?
But noone is using their bad experiences to enlighten others in a negatvie way.
We should be careful not to speak from a place of anger and fear
But noone is speaking from a place of anger and fear.
as that does more harm to our Self than actually to others around us.
But noone is trying to harm others around them.
You were just making some contextless smalltalk here, I get it now. Makes sense, since a minute before this contextless little speech you said
Yoga also teach us respect for the paths of others and I think that is important to apply. My partner in life is on a totally different path than mine and neither is better than the other. All paths are equal and no matter how we may judge it, it is always the most appropriate path for the individual.
We think, Pandara, that we have a lot to learn, that we are not even headed in the right direction yet, that we lie to ourselves and others too. I think that we should step away from our vanity and that we should realize and acknowledge who we really are and where we really stand and what we really feel and that we should accept this and work with reality, instead of surpressing ourselves and denying ourselves and pretending to be something more evolved. Because what we are will always sneak through our fassades anyway and it will disgust us away.
Unfortunately, we can’t accept what we are, because we’d think that’d throw us back on our great path of evolution and we really don’t want to start over from the beginning. So we will just see our discerning questions and comments as a momentary disturbance, that we should simply ignore, because we must be walking awesomenesses when we know some stuff about bones and ancient books and how to talk a little pretty. Every now and then we will present ourselves very surpised if we think we suck big time and we will assume that we must be somewhat mislead or sick inside to misjudge us so badly and we will find a few more pretty words to pretend some understanding, tolerance and sympathy of and for and with such spiritual infancy.
All along we will frequently lament how the real Yoga, that we represent, is watered down by us and how sad it makes us, that millions of us are involved with such a wonderful thing Yoga is, but we still make no difference and we still have no impact on society, because all we want is another slice of a lousy pie to cram down our greedy throats to blow up our already overly fat bellies even more.
Oh, how time passes when we’re enjoying ourselves… Now we must go and buy us some chakra-panties, so:
Namaste OM Shanti Hare Rama and a whole lot of loving blessings to us all! :lol:
My yoga teacher said "you have a life time to become perfect" which my case translates into "I have a life time to become perfect, but time is running out".
There are many valid points in this discussion, however nothing is black and white. I eat largely vegetarian and that is good for the environment as some state that 1/3 of greenhouse emissions are from cattle. However as David has pointed out, I should be looking for locally produced products, so to reduce the energy footprint amongst other benefits.
Yesterday when I was out riding I came upon a Wombat that was dead at the side of the HWY. What should I of done to be a better person?
left it where it was
move it off the roadside into the bush
taken it home and eaten it (assuming it was still fresh)
While Yoga and Buddhism are sepparte entities, they do have a strong intertwining thread. I find it interesting that no one has mentioned that Buddha died by eating bad pork. :rolleyes:
Hypocrisy…? Not so much. :-/
