[QUOTE=David;48304]Will all of you vegetarians out there start being compassionate and switch to only local, organic foods so you stop destroying the world’s air, oceans, and fresh water supply?
Thanks.[/QUOTE]
There you go. Now we’re talking.
Fairtrade products do that. But that enters into green capitalism, which doesn’t really help the industrial demolition of the nature.
Yet I have seen people, for example, in Glastonbury, England, actually do produce locally and consume locally, which seems to work; and looks quite hokey.
Fairtrade products do what?
I agree in principle with what Amir is saying that one becomes naturally compassionate when they reach certain levels of conscousness realization. When one realises that the nature that flows within them, also flows in all things, then one starts to consider the world as their greater self. Then we realise all is that infinite consciousness. This is real compassion, and not just an imagined sense of compassion where we do something simply because we believe it is good.
But I want to ask, should we really wait to achieive higher states of consciousness before we start behaving compassionately and start doing good deeds? I really need to ask myself this, because I rarely do any good deeds self-consciously. I don’t give to charity and I take more from the world than I give back. I admit I am selfish. I aim to start giving back to the world after I have completed my spiritual training. However, I am starting to revise my views on this matter. One need not have to wait for direct experience before conducting good deeds, one can conduct good deeds even before reaching direct experience. I do not need the direct experience of going through the feelings of murdering somebody, to know that murdering somebody is wrong. I do not need to go through the direct experience of taking illegal drugs, to know taking illegal drugs is wrong. I do not need to go through the direct experience of joining the mafia, to know that violence is wrong.
In addition to the faculty of direct experience, I have the faculty of intellect which I can use to know what is right and what is wrong for my well being. I have used this faculty of intellect and concluded that eating meat is wrong for my well being. I could reach this conclusion through the faculty of direct experience by waiting to reach high levels of conscious realization so that I became acutely aware of the vibrations of what I consume and their effects on me, but this requires years and years of intense spiritual training. Why do I need to wait for years and years of training to come to a conclusion that only requires a few moments of logical reasoning?
[quote=Surya Deva;48316]When one realises that the nature that flows within them, also flows in all things, then one starts to consider the world as their greater self.
Why do I need to wait for years and years of training to come to a conclusion that only requires a few moments of logical reasoning?[/quote]
So by a few moments of logical reasoning I can conclude that you are eating local and organic because you are able to logically conclude that since the world is your greater self, if you’re not eating that way, then you’re harming yourself. And harming yourself would be illogical. Yes?
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;48316] I do not need to go through the direct experience of taking illegal drugs, to know taking illegal drugs is wrong.[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=David;48309]Fairtrade products do what?[/QUOTE]
That is, they are organic foods and groceries and such 
Fair Trade products do not have to be organic and are VERY RARELY local which is of utmost importance due to the embodied energy of non local goods. More info on what Fair Trade is.
“But I want to ask, should we really wait to achieive higher states of consciousness before we start behaving compassionately and start doing good deeds?”
That is certainly not necessary. But one should not have any attachment at all to the idea that there is anything “spiritual” about doing or not doing certain things. Morality is as relative as relativity can be, one can paint anything one wants out of it. And what we consider “good” or “bad” are going to be different according to our own likes, dislikes, and prejudices of the mind. So, I do not see something like the yama’s or niyamas of yoga as having anything to do with being “spiritual”. What they are trying to do, is just create a certain inner atmosphere which is helpful for transformation.
Hmmm, six pages is probably sufficient to flesh out even the most lofty of topics and yet as a yoga teacher I like to get people thinking so …
One might consider delineating compassionate intention versus compassionate action. In asana one may contract the quadriceps with the intention of being “lean”, or the intention of healing the knee, or of moving light into cells in order to mindfully move forward (read: evolve). The action is the same, the intentions are radically different. Therefore as a mix (in this case of only two variables, and there are more) the outcomes(s) must also be different. In surviving one may choose to operate in harmony with other living things (of which there are many) or in discord.
I would point out that animals eat animals and I don’t find that behavior to lack compassion. Native Americans also ate animals. And of course man has intellect and can choose while lion cannot. I would also point out that suggesting there is one answer for all people regardless of context is the threshold of dogma and there simply is no room in Yoga for dogma. And by dogma I mean [I]rigidly holding a set of beliefs without flexibility for unproved or unprovable reasons[/I].
It should also be mentioned, for those who choose to thump the sutras as though it were the Bible, that non-harming, in the times and context of their authoring meant that human beings should not kill other human beings. This concept of context also comes to bear on the brief mentions of asana in the sutras. While one might assert that Patanjali is saying physical activity is not “important” the light of context shows us that such things are presumed in his writings for people already lived active (not sedentary) lives.
It is obviously healthy to eat a diet rich in organic fruits and vegetables AND we, as a society eat far too many animal products AND due to that there are a myriad of practices relative to animal treatment that should be stopped immediately. However that, in and of itself, is not a complete condemnation of eating animal products for that person who chooses to or needs to. AND, of course, Yoga is available to the mindful carnivore, pescatarian, and vegan alike, just as it is available to the tall, short, thin, big, crooked, straight, supple, and stiff.
Ultimately, what must be decided is whether this path or that path is for “me” and how does it work in my living and align with my particular svadharma or life mission. My path as a teacher is to model that and share the wisdom of yoga so that students may wield it wisely on their own and not impose it on themselves or on others.
Ahimsa- but it is so personal, is more the reason than karma; personal because you can only kill in your heart. In reality nothing dies. In Hindu cosmogony there’s a creator, preserver and destroyer. I can believe in enlightened cannibals but it’s easier to believe in vegetarians who are at peace. I wish everyone enjoys their yoga today, Namaste
The truth is I stopped a long time ago trying to convince others of why they should adopt a plant base diet. I am sharing only my views.
My primary thought is to help raise awareness in the principle of Ahimsa, or non-harming, which ultimately brings light on an increasing concern for our environment and our animal inhabitants on this earth. Chosing to be a vegan/vegetarian is possibly one single change that could create a positive effect to protect both the environment, the animals, and not to mention ourselves. Still, the question of being a vegetarian arises. Maybe for health reasons we adopt a plant base diet or we feel strongly about the rights of animals, considering the US is the largest consumers of eating flesh.
The animals have an Atman, divine soul, which abides in these bodies. These animal feels love. They have feelings, emotions, attachments, and desires; just witness a calf being taken from its mother.
People call them pets when they live in their home but call them meat when they consume them.
The choice in what one chooses to eat is a statement of personal ethics and understanding of
suffering.
[QUOTE=David;48319]So by a few moments of logical reasoning I can conclude that you are eating local and organic because you are able to logically conclude that since the world is your greater self, if you’re not eating that way, then you’re harming yourself. And harming yourself would be illogical. Yes?[/QUOTE]
Yes, eating locally produced, vegetarian and organic food is not harming yourself and nor is it harming the world. I personally think the current way we consume is highly unethical, unsustinable and unnatural. Most of the food we eat is contamined with chemicals and genetic modifications, the air we breath is polluted with radioactive particles and toxins, the water we drink has flouride in it and lacks many of the natural minerals, and most people drink carbonated sugar drinks and alcoholic beverages. The spaces we live in are overcrowded concrete jungles, the energy we consume produces massive pollution. In addition to that we are destroying the ecosystems of this planet with our mass-exploitation of its natural resources for the purpose of profits.
That once sacred attitude that human cultures held all over the planet for nature is all but gone and replaced by relentless capitalistist greed, which is slowly but surely destroying this planet and destroying us. In short our current way of life is completely messed up.
There are healthier, greener and spiritual alternatives to how we live. We can locally produce our food eating organic fruit, vegetables, grains and nuts(no chemical preservatives, no chemical fertilizer, and additives etc). We can learn to harvest natural water sources such as rain, springs, lakes, sea(no flouride) We can tap renewable sources of energy such as solar, wind, sea. We can manufacture our products from cleaner sources like minerals, wood, metals, cotton, silk and only produce enough that is sufficient for our needs(as opposed to mass production of plastics, nylon etc) Even our medicines can be produced from natural herbs and minerals(as opposed to drugs) The environments we live in should be more connected to natural environments and evenly and openly spaced to allow a freer flow of energy.
Krishna talks about this in the Gita when he talks about the debt that humans have to nature, elements and animals. We are not here to exploit and rape this planet, but to look after this planet. This planet gave birth to us - mother Earth - and we have a debt to pay back to it for giving birth to us and nourishing us.
The only reason we live the way we do is capitalism. This is both destructive to our soul and to our world.
So, I do not see something like the yama’s or niyamas of yoga as having anything to do with being “spiritual”. What they are trying to do, is just create a certain inner atmosphere which is helpful for transformation.
Which is spiritual is it not? Anything that contributes to creating an inner atmosphere which is helpful for spiritual transformation is therefore a spiritual thing. Conversely, anything that contributes to undermining an inner atmosphere which is unhelpful for spiritual transformation is therefore not spiritual.
So which things contribute to spiritual transformation and which things do not? To illustrate this let us look at two extreme but common types of consumption that one would follow if they were living in an ashram or a city.
Sattvic consumption: One consumes only fruit, vegetables, nuts and grains and eats only enough to keep a healthy body. One spends most of their day outside in open environments doing their chores mindfully, meditating, practicing Yoga and socialising in the company of sagely people and seekers. Then they returns to their humble abode to wind down by 10pm and wakes up at 4am ready for another day.
Tamasic consumption: One consumes only red meat and overeats to make their body more massive. One spends most of their day indoors exposed to unnatural radiation(electric equipment) and overworks to meet stressful targets and deadlines. Later they go to the pub and drink 5 pints of beer and socialise with their buddies talking about football, cars, sex and television. They leave the pub by 10pm, and go back home to have sex and go to sleep at 1-2am and wake up 6-7am the next day ready for work.(On weekends they stay out to 4am in the morning in bars and clubs)
Which of the above modes of consumption do you think is helpful for spiritual transformation?
Again, to all the vegetarians and vegans out there who speak of compassion and ahimsa and not harming the environment. If you are not eating local AND organic, your eating of vegetables are doing FAR more harm to the environment than my occasional consumption of one of the naturally raised chickens in my yard.
If you don’t eat local and organic, you are responsible for ground water pollution, dead zones in the ocean, air pollution, and countless other forms of pollution that is directly killing those animals you hold so precious as well as their entire eco system.
I won’t get into the driving of cars and not being carbon neutral. My point here is that the vast majority of you who think you’re being compassionate are deluding yourselves.
Interesting. But my question was, are you? Because that would be logical.
Interesting. But my question was, are you? Because, you know, that would be logical.
Ethical consumerism is a more complex form of consumption than simply an either or situation. An ethical consumer will consume ethically in some areas, and not consume ethically in others, but may in the future expand their ethical consumption to include other areas. In my case I ethically consume only in the area of that I consume vegetarian food and do not smoke, but my current lifestyle is hardly ethical in general, in that I indulge in alcohol, sex and consume fast-food and a lot of food I consume is non-organic and local. This is partly due to me choosing a moderate left-hand path for myself to explore certain areas of my life because I can, before I go off to India to live a much more ethical lifestyle(only local and organic vegetarian food, no sex, no alcohol)
Ethical consumption is on a sliding scale. On one end you have breatherians who subsist on sunlight and oxygen and can survive in open environments and live in nature and then on the end you have cannibals who subsist on human flesh, live like animals in jungles and kill. The majority of people are somewhere in the middle.
One can either choose to be more human or more animal.
Eating animals, hmmmm? Let me see.
It causes heart disease, cancer, and is a hideous cruel thing to the animal.
Hmmm?
Do I want to make a cemetery out of my stomach? Hmmm? Would that hinder enlightenment? Yuck! I can’t read anymore. I’ll get nightmares.
Geez, eat a apple, please.
Best wishes, and I hope I wasn’t to offensive but I just wanted to give my two cents worth too, Gil.
[quote=High Wolf;48286]Could somebody explain me what is the rationale behind Yoga and being a vegetarian? Trying not to eat meat due to fear of karma, I reckon, is not a valid argument, but a generally accepted, unchallenged myth.
I don’t eat red meat because it disturbs my stomach. This is something I do, completely based on my own bodily experience. Yet I eat chicken and fish, as it seems, my body needs it.
So explain a valid rationale behind Yoga and being a vegetarian, that is, if you can.[/quote]
Yes, it’s the first Yama: AHIMSA, non violence.
Convinced?
[I]Should[/I] Yoga teachers be Vegetarian?
No.
But they can be.