Skeletal alignment - joint cracking

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#1

Hi everyone,

I’ve been focusing on my body’s alignment during yoga practice, to feel grounded and balanced from the floor up is my plan. Been told by a doctor that I have a mild case of flat feet. This causes by body to compensate for the misbalance while walking. It accomplishes this by placing more weight to the outside edges of my feet. This in-turn affects by knees, I think.

Anyway, when focused on balance/alignment of my feet my left knew tends to crack during its bending. It cracks as I think it begins to use the knew joint evenly, and not just the one side. I assume my body is not use to this, and the noise/sensations produced by this are strange. It cracks, as in knuckle cracking, and then makes squishy/grinding noises. This feels awkward. As a kid this left knew received a few major spills and has bruises to prove it. Just wondering if you guys experience this same join cracking while trying to improve your bodys alignement? Or if I should inquire a expert about it, and who would that be?

cheers,

#2

First, your yoga teacher. I hope that (s)he has a solid background in alignment based yoga. Maybe you are overdoing this new “alignment” somewhat?

Secondly, you doctor. A general practitioner should be able to rule any serious knee problems by examination and refer you on if required.

#3

I always get cracks and pops in my knees while practicing! For some reason, every time I go from Trikonasana to Parivrtta Trikonasa in the primary series, both of my knees crack. But it feels good for me, like a sense of relief, and that’s the only time I get those cracks in my practice.

I agree with Willem that you should consult your teacher, and I also think you should go see an Osteopath or good Chiropractor to find out what’s going on. I’ve know a few yoga practitioners who have messed up their knees from their practice and have had to take lots of time of to get their knees back to a somewhat healthy state.

I had some issues in my low back a couple of years ago and I told one of my yoga teachers what pain I was experiencing, and in what poses, and she didn’t know what it was. And this is a teacher who has been practicing for over 30 years, whom I totally trust with my anatomical questions. My pain was getting worse and worse, no Dr’s could figure out what it was, and finally I was referred by my Naturopath to a really great Chiropractor who diagnosed my issues with problems with my si joints.

The point of my little story is that although teachers can help you with your yoga alignment and some muscular-skeletal issues, if you are dealing with a deep underlying problem, you need to ask someone who does just that as their job. Many issues are symptoms of a larger problem which need a proper assessment to diagnose.

All that being said, you may be just one cracky guy! My joints crack a lot, and it’s just the way I am. Better to be safe than sorry though- you might need a nice healthy set of knees for your future- so go get yourself checked out.

#4

[QUOTE=Willem;30623]First, your yoga teacher. I hope that (s)he has a solid background in alignment based yoga. Maybe you are overdoing this new “alignment” somewhat?[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure, I know my body is not exactly symmetrical, as my rib-cage/spine is a little twisted/bent. For instance on one occasion during my practice, while standing up from a downward dog, I had an image of myself being super grounded and my whole body was super strong. During the movement it felt as though my legs were equally lifting my body, with much strength, control, and balance. And all of the sudden, crack!, I mean the knee is a large joint, so the noise is audible and the sensation is well sensed. It does not hurt, but does feel awkward. Again I believe this is due to my daily walking style, were the weight is not evenly distributed on my feet. I’ve asked my doctor about my skeletal-alignment, and she said everything is fine, except I just have a bit of a flat foot.

[QUOTE=gentle_yogini;30634]
All that being said, you may be just one cracky guy! My joints crack a lot, and it’s just the way I am. Better to be safe than sorry though- you might need a nice healthy set of knees for your future- so go get yourself checked out.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I love when my check cracks during some twists and chest openers, feels great. I hope not, lol. Who would be best to see a rehabilitation centre, a chiropractor? I mean I’ve gone to a chiropractor before and he did give me a set of shoe inserts to elevate my foot arch. But this does not address the cause of the problem, rather puts a bandage over it.

#5

Message me and I can refer you to a good chiropractor here in TO. I also know a great osteopath that I can refer you to.

#6

You might want to seriously reconsider the value of or discontinue any practices you are currently engaged in that may be causing concern.As general rule of thumb, discontinuing whatever one is doing that is causing doubts to arise is clearly a good idea.

Therpaeutic issues are best dealt with most effectively, that is, especially if they are severe or stubborn , by a multi dimensional sadhana. The fact that broad-based yoga is generally not distilled via the average regular yoga class does not help the average practitioner who may run into issues sooner rather than later…

You might want to look at then:-

Prana vidya
Pranayama
Meditation
Pawanmuktasana Series 1
Diet & lifestyle

A couple of classic asanas on their own might help some folk’s knees but not everyone who has knee issues;this is where some of the complexity arises as it can be myopic to overly focus on individual part of the anatomy or even the gross physical form… Also sometimes we need to reasses the yoga we are currently practicing to really get at the root of the problem;this usually means a holistic long-term approach.

The yoga approach is,rather than lean towards dependence on someone else to fix YOU, but to empower the individual with the necessary tools to help themselves.

From the sound of it , your apporach from the feet up is a sound one, imo.This is also the rolfing paradigm.Indeed some folk believe they can assess for imbalances in the body just based on the position of the feet;obviously it will likely influence how gravity will affect the rest of the structure further up…

Sounds like you’ve got a good G.P though if he was able to identify flat feet as most i’ve encountered don’t enquire too deeply;also bear in mind that experts are only experts on their own particular field so a range of “experts” may furnish you with quite different explanations.

Your post is kind suggesssting to me that- ok, i am doin something, a yoga practice, and this is resulting in my knees to crack.Furthermore this is causing me concern.I can say from my own experience that i have had too look a bit deeper into my yoga practice as well as the physical body to uncover other conspiring issues that need processing to effect a speedy and effective recovery. The basic premise of yoga is that the mind and body is so intimatelty related that they both need addressed as do all the other layers of our consciousness and personality. I am not saying chiropracters,osteopaths or G.P’s have no value but they tend to just treat the physcial body so less effective ,they foster dependency on them and tend to cater charcteristically for crisis medicine situations called in when the body finally breaks down perhaps because we have failed to listen to the body’s calls(or pleas even) to respond or alter our living.The cracks might be fairly innocuous; just never force anything or say push a joint beyond say it’s normal range of motion.A classic example of this is the knees.Bear in mind the knee is not designed to have any lateral movement except a rather marginal amount and that is [I]only [/I]during flexion(see ‘Yoga Journal’ website for a decent primer on the knees and how this joint is designed to function).OBivously if our hips are not open enough like if there is not sufficient inward or outward rotation our knees may be forced to bear the brunt of this(the classic cases are folk attempting padmasana or virasana- i have experienced the latter taught in ashtanga vinyasa beginners classes which i would regard as inappropriate and unsafe but that is just my opinion;And sometimes balanced ones are earnt the hard way)

Obviously this is a yoga answer rather than a chiropractor or G.P answer ,seeing as this is a yoga forum.I think the latter can offer excellent diagnoses but solving the problem can only be explored and processed by you.

If yoga ‘practice’ has somehow got you here, then yoga should be able to get YOU out of it.You might need then to become your own expert.

(Note:-Of course just moving your body about a couple of set posture routines is unlikely ,for many people, to foster healing.)

#7

Hello Tido,

You have not mentioned your yoga teacher yet. Does this mean you are self taught? These types of questions should really be addressed to someone who is able to see you in person, preferably an experienced yoga teacher.

Why get up directly from down dog? You could move to cat first and take it from there.

#8

Has your doctor placed a hand over your knee while moving your lower leg about to actually “listen” to these noises? If so, what does (s)he say about them?

#9

[QUOTE=core789;30652]From the sound of it , your apporach from the feet up is a sound one, imo.This is also the rolfing paradigm.Indeed some folk believe they can assess for imbalances in the body just based on the position of the feet;obviously it will likely influence how gravity will affect the rest of the structure further up..
[/QUOTE]
I also notice these imbalances while dancing, which is all about a balanced step. If one steps incorrectly, the torso begins to wobble and one looses balance. I may be a bit anal, but dancing has a lot to do with precise step.

They may, it happens also during warrior 2, while my left foot is forward. As I prepare for the postureI visualize/feel the weight distributed evenly between both feet. As I being to descending, bending my forward knee, it tries to go inward, I even it out form a 90 deg. angle with the floor. Now placing more pressure/weight on both feet, my left knee cracks. Again its loud, but it may be as you said innocuous, and I do believe there is some misalignment in my body, even though the doctor said everything is fine. But my perfectionism in asans alignment may be a little much.

[QUOTE=Willem;30661]Hello Tido,

You have not mentioned your yoga teacher yet. Does this mean you are self taught? These types of questions should really be addressed to someone who is able to see you in person, preferably an experienced yoga teacher.

Why get up directly from down dog? You could move to cat first and take it from there.[/QUOTE]
I gone to a group class for a year, but stopped learning anything new. So I began to practice on my own as it seems to be the same thing. What I think would be really helpful is a private yoga session. Can anyone recommend an experienced teacher in Toronto, I'd really like to know if my alignment postures are done correctly.

I get up from down dog, because its part of the sun salutation flow I've began doing.

#10

Good idea. I hope other posters will respond to your question.

So the culprits are: down dog --> lunge --> standing up and warrior 2. Is it the front knee that is causing the problems? In lunge and warrior 2, make sure that this knee is tracking the midline of your foot. And don’t allow your front knee to go beyond your ankle (shin beyond the vertical). Don’t overdo the downward dog - heels are off the floor and knees slightly bent in the beginning. There are more alignment points, best seen in person.

#11

But my perfectionism in asans alignment may be a little much

Or the striving for for an idealised kind of perfectionism ,specifically relating to posture training. Remeber that it is what is going on inside that is more important, and less what the posture looks like on the outside especially if our body simply is’nt ready or open enough for some of the asanas.It’s not necessarily what you can see in a book or even how your teacher does it.Also there are other tools in yoga. Most folk get stuck on the hatha yoga see-saw and remain there i’d imagine because that’s all they know. Although i think there are many tools out there and we can combine them in tandem as part of a srtuctured routine to make the whole more effective.

If our overall alignment is out , then one or more of our joints could take the strain. Also the fact that you knees are taking the strain could indicate imbalances further up because the body is trying to accomodate for any assymetries.For example some side-tilting in the trunk/torso could put more weight or less on one side.Also tight hips onee one side or both could mean that the knee takes the strain because of this.You could move the foot inward in order to balance and compensate for balances further up. So therfore straightening the foot causes the knee to take the strain as the next mobile joint and given that there maybe imbalnces further up. I used to think i just had a stiff neck, and then it was a tight psoas/hip flexors then i did more than a liittle research and discovered that the picture was was all too frequently more complicated than that. In fact the number of variables i have come to appreciate in good health has increased quite a bit-the way you breathe, diet,willingness to grow & change etc etc

I will say that if your joints crack, to me that says quite clearly stop whatever you’re doing, unless you think it’s fairly innocuous. Really the average student with therpaeutic issues cannot expect to roll up to any old hatha yoga class and expect for it to be good for them. You best bet is really therefore as you say a private session 1-on-1 with someone that really know there craft and can furnish you teaching you how to use tools that will help you to help yourself.Although some teachers often want you to book 3 in advance. What i would do is tell them you want one session, to see if they are good enough quality-wise or have therapaeutics training &/or knowledge…

Joint cracking is not desirable especially if it causing you concern. Not to over worry. But you can explain in two significant ways-

[ul]
[li]abnormally high muscle tonus in certain areas, regions of the body
[/li]
[li] or obstructions in the energy body.
[/li][/ul]

It is the former that most scientifically minded people can understand so it is easier to win folk over if you explain it in those terms-the physical rather than the subtle nervous system. Behind the body/matter is energy and behind that Consciousness.It is that simple.And these are terms science does understand but can’t yet fully explain all it’s mysteries certainly as they relate to modern health medicine and healing.

Also if i am blunt with you ignore all the other limbs and components of a complete & balanced sadhana at your own peril. If there are cracks in joints that are a cause for concern than this is a call to listen to.Sometimes we do get pops, and they may even feel quite pleasant but they are not desirable.The joints should be supple and mbile and not pushed beyond their normal halthy range of motion . If you are unsure how the knee should function go to the yogajournal website where you read one of the best primers i have read on the net myself ,particularly including the safety of the knees in virasana.

Also consider using less effort – perhaps you are not forcing but it is worth saying.

Also i used to make probably a common mistake which is not perfectionism- that is a good quality you have, but the striiving for perfection- specifically for in this case an idealised perfection of any given asana- in your posture training. So you just accept where you are today and consider modifying the pose if the knee cracks- don’t try to steer your body towards injury.If the foot goes inward to try to balance and make up for any imbalnces in the upper body then some other more open or closed/tight joint can take the strain- ( the knees for e.g)… The sensible thing to do is just do leg and hip-openers,or supine work, without standing asana routines at least for a little while.This is what i mean when sometimes we have to seriously re-evaluate the yoga we are doing.It won’t be the same, this year or next year.

When you are doing Warrior 2-

More TIPS

1)Pull both shoulder blades towards the centre/spine
2)Pull the flesh of the buttock of the bent knee towards the tailbone.

The arms are straight;iyengar teaches the elbows in a gentle locked position facing upwards.

The bent knee thigh can hang very slightly lower then the knees.Some side-tiliting ,tight hips and/or waist could be behind these issues. As i say some fok may trun the feet in i order to balnce and compensate for imbalnces further up in the structure like in trunk/torso for e.g.So it can be quite a complex picture when we look at the whole body, and not just the muscular system, although that’s what we most identify with.This muscle. That muscle.They’re all of course linked together.

See if i was you, i would take the advice of the first post i issued here if these isssues were sufficiently causing you enough concernIn terms of asan look at pawanmukatasan series 1- should help help with poorly aligned knees and the joints of the feet,knees& hips upwards…Be prepared to completely turn around your yoga practice but still keep same sound first principles.Obviously ahimsa is the one we have to respect the most.If your practice is sound as is your kness and causing you no doubt or concern then ,fine, you are alirght.