Teacher dilemma

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#1

As a yoga teacher I’ve been to several classes where I was the student. In those classes some of the instructions given were contrary to what I’ve been taught and, I felt, injurious. Some examples: In Bridge pose, bring chin toward chest. (chest is to brought in toward chin, tilting chin back slightly to help with breathing). In seated wide leg forward bend, roll thighs inward. (well, this is counterintuitive to begin with and the thighs should roll out so as not to create impingement in the hip joint. Of course, if the knees are pointing to the outside you will have to roll thighs inward for correct alignment) Neck Rolls. (This is a big no-no, especially for those with neck injury) Warrior I (do not align heels like Warrior II. Widen the feet. Well, I was taught in I and II to align heels. If squaring hips is the issue, there are very effective ways to accomplish that WITH heels aligned)

These are just a few of some of the questionable instructions I’ve encountered. If any teachers out there have insight, comments or suggestions, please let me know. Part of my dilemma is that one my students also attends one of these classes and the teacher’s instruction is contrary to what I teach this same student.

Thanks for any help! Shanti, Om, Shanti

#2

Hi, Lotusgirl. Although Im not a teacher, here are few words about the problem. First of all there is yoga tradition. Make sure that you are teaching students in relevance with it. B.K.S. Iyengar in his "Yoga dipika" gives accurate explanations on how to do most postures. It is considered as the most traditional asana instructions. However, i guess there are a lot of classes, where teachers dont follow traditions or even use yoga postures as just another physical activity, for example like pilates, fitness or something else, but with misterious veil.

#3

Namaskar Lotusgirl,

I joined the forum today itself and felt tempted to reply to your post.

Yoga has transformed itself gradually through hundreds and thousands of years. The poses we practice today were achieved not in a day but after continuous research by sages and their disciples throughout generation after generation. Their research included human anatomy, Ayurveda, human psychology etc. and the effect of a certain pose on these elements. The research on Yoga lessened and almost stopped during the middle ages. The yogis and their disciples sought recluse to the farthest northern mountains whereas the ancient scripts and slokas got destroyed or lost in the cycles of time. But the evolution of Yoga did not stop but rather found a new passage. The evolution of Yoga moved on through the mass. Often, in India, you will find on the banks of the river Ganges at Benaras, people practicing poses, meditating or practicing pranayama, each one differently than the other. Following Swami Vivekananda’s words " The father does not know how the son does and vice versa"

Now, if we come to your dilemma, what I understand from your post that you are traditionally correct in your poses. In Setubandhasana or the Bridge pose, the chest moves towards the chin and not the other way around. Similarly in Virbhadrasana (Warrior Pose) alignment of heels are necessary to practice the pose correctly and get optimum results. But as I said earlier, research on Yoga stopped a long time back and have again started very recently and I should add - this time mostly at the West. So it will be unwise to discard any of the processes as wrong before doing proper research on it. You as a teacher, on the other hand, can do your research on the poses to find out which one gives optimum results or which one harms the human body. Remember, we need to carry out the research as modern day Yogis if we want to adapt the science of Yoga for our modern society.

Shubhamastu.

#4

Added to the helpful replies ,Im sure nowadays a lot of teachers dont really know what they are teaching in asana or how they are doing what they do ,so a lot of misunderstanding is occurring . Having said that we can also get fixed on the way we were taught ,or the way we think we were taught and this leads to rigidity in mind and body. I can think of reasons why all the poses may be taught for some people in the way you describe ,apart from upavista konasana which is wrong in my mind unless given your explanation for where that insruction might be valid.
However if someone is teaching variations of “normal” body alignment it should be incumbent on them to explain why one may take the asana in this way and to encourage the student to feel how an amendment affects their mind , body.I also suspect that alignment in asana is a relatively new concept if you look at old pics of masters doing yoga the asana alignment is often not great.Unless of course it was lost and is now being found again.
My advice would be to avoid teachers giving dodgy instructions :smiley:

#5

Thanks for the posts! I have been teaching for many years now and practicing for over a dozen. I am well versed in anatomy and my teaching is very spiritual. I do quite a bit of reading and research mainly because yoga and its benefits, and the human body, fascinates me. My dilemma is with having one of my students also attending the same class. Do I have an ethical obligation to say something to her so she does not injure herself? The waters are very murky here. With having two contradictory set of instructions I’m sure she is confused. While I am not a perfect human (who is?), I do feel confident in my teaching methodology. Of course, I also try to be open to new ways to teach and learning new modifications. Ego is not a question here. Yoga has no room for ego. Safety is a primary concern and one cannot experience the full benefits of yoga when the pose is done wrong.

Suggestions? Thanks!

#6

To Charliedharma-------Thanks for your post. I’m a bit confused on what you were trying to say though. The way this particular teacher was teaching the pose I explained after the name. My interpretation of the correct way with my reasons are in ( ). Were you agreeing with me on Upavistha Konasana? While I am always open to new teaching methods and modifications, I do worry about asanas being taught in the way I described. They were not taught as modifications. As with ego, rigidity has no place in yoga. As teachers we need to adapt to the needs of the class. If we are unsure about something, it should not be taught.

Again, thanks for the response!

#7

If it was someone who attended my classes I would definitely share what i thought ,especially if i felt an instruction was ignorant or harmful,I would try to do so gently ,ie without denigrating the other teacher.
and I would try to remember that the student could be more aware than me ,but of course some are, others seem to be less than aware .
But sometimes I go off on one and come out with a very strong opinion hopefully based on experience and direct knowledge of what im talking about.I have to be careful with the last method because I could be mistaken myself.

#8

Respect your attitude. It woul be good іf possible to find out the reason why another teacher gives different instructions.
In any case, protecting your students from injures is more important than doubts about ethics, right ?

#9

yes lotusgirl ,sorry for my mangled english (was rushing to surf ,alas there is no surf so Im back), I was agreeing with you about upavistha konasana (thankyou for correct spelling). I pretty much agree with everything you say , was just trying to expand and add to the thread, I hear what you say about modfications .
To repeat I would say something to the student .
I come from a tradition of alignment based practice by the way and often sit at tables with other practitioners who critiscise the method as being obsessed , intellectual and based in minutiae , I suspect they are lazy and arrogant and cant be bothered to find out for themselves , but that is another thread and definitely something that challenges me.I know how I place my index finger or middle finger in down dog effects my whole pose and quality of awareness, if someone wants to criticise that , well ! (he goes further off on a tangent )
yours in yoga charlie

#10

Thank you Charlie! I am so with you on the placement of the middle and index finger in down dog. It is how I teach it! It does make a huge difference. Proper alignment is the difference between “being yoga” and just working out. I appreciate your input and let you all know how I handle this.

#11

There are two issues within your post that I’d like to respond to.

The first is the surety of teaching, the conveyance of the practice with safety as a priority, and the balance of safety with the efficacy of the practice. These things embody yoga only when they are absent of dogma.

As teachers we must teach what is true for us, what comes from the heart, what manifests or leads to integrity, and what moves the students closer to the light within. At the same time there has to be an understanding and application of the concept that there is no “right and wrong”, no one way to do this or that and that truth itself not only comes in layers but also has a duality.

The second issue is the intervention, or lack thereof, in the student’s path. Here too as teachers there is a balance. That balance is between the caring and compassion for the student that is critical for yoga teachers to possess AND the realization that each path is unique, each student has choice, and that our lessons in the physical body come in many shapes, sizes, and natures.

You can certainly reinforce the concept that too many cooks may spoil the stew (and in yoga that can lead to confusion in the practice) AND that diversity of practice is essential to cultivating our discernment and connection with svadharma (personal life mission).

You can also convey to the students (as a class) that the nature of your teaching is such that safety and clarity are paramount. That the practice itself is designed to remove avidya (ignorance - one of the five Kleshas or obstacles), and that “we do these things we do for sound reasons”.

In this way you’ve provided the tools to your students through the teachings themselves - the transmission of the teachings both in asana and in applied philosophy, and it is up to them to pick up the tools and wield them in their living. After all, you’ll not be over their shoulder at every turn and as sound teachers our hope is that one day the student will no longer need us:-)

#12

Lotusgirl, first of all your desire to instruct correctly is to be appreciated. While the experienced practitioners are giving you very useful suggestions, I want to bring into focus a little bigger picture.

For a moment, meditate on the purpose of asana. The health and a sense of well-being is a fallout and not the purpose. Though Hatha-yoga has a great tradition of this discipline, Sage Patanjali mentions asana only once, [I]“Stheer Sukh Asanam”[/I]! meaning a posture that is steady and pleasant enough to hold on to. The context then amplifies this to tell us that a good asana should culminate in a point where the body awareness melts and awareness is gently lifted to a higher, subtler level.

Since you are a practitioner yourself, when in doubt always apply that test. The mechanics of movements and the athletic ability do not decide the culmination of an asana. It is the other way round. That way, you would be the best judge in your next conflict.

#13

a little story, One time a friend of mine went with my to a kundalini yoga class and left saying that they were teaching wrong. According to her training asanas are supposed to be done with eyes open, and she gave reasons why, while in the kundalini class they had us keep eyes closed to focus inward. Two different styles, two different reasonings. My friend seems to have found an effective path for her and many on the kundhalini path like it as well.

Neck rolls, that is taught in kundalini yoga, of course if it hurts or there is discomfort it does not make sense to continue that.

(anyone familiar with anasara if this next paragraph is wrong please correct me)
rolling the thighs inward is something taught in anasara yoga and maybe others types as well. If I am not mistaken this is called inner spiral and they use it to create space for the base of the spine to move forward. for people with a rear end that sticks out too much it help to bring it in. They also use an outer spiral as well to balance inner and outer spiral. If that is her style, then maybe that is what she is referring to.

one of the aims of many types of yogas and instructors is for the student to go inward, to get in tune with them selves and become self sufficient. if the student is doing something that is causing them pain, and the student continues to do that which causes them pain, whos fault is that?

Of course if there is an instructor that is too inexperienced or telling people to do stuff that is just way off the map so to speak, well that is another story. If I were in a class and they had newbies doing headstands the first day and someone said it hurt, maybe I would say something about that

I am not sure what you mean by feet not alligned in the warrior poses. I have been to classes where one foot was straight out and the other was turned ninety degrees, an anusara class I believe. Is this what you are reffering to about feet not aligned? If so I am not sure there is a problem with that unless there is discomfort beyond the discomfort from lack of strength to hold the pose

Can you discuss these things with this teacher without it becoming a battle? If so maybe do that,
best to you
Brother Neil

#14

Brother neil , what the thighs do in upavistha konasana , triko nasana ,virabhadrasana 2 is different , Im not an anusara practitioner and im sure that this instruction would not be given for this pose , but if im wrong im surprised.Their may be reasons to give this instruction for certain people but I cant think of any,apart from the one already mentioned in the op.
Asana can be done with eyes open or shut, although for certain conditions best not to work with eyes shut
My views on kundalini yoga as taught today are best kept to myself ,I will only ask has their Kundalini awakened ? :roll:

#15

WoW! A lot of food for thought has been offered. Thank you all. Some thoughts…
Like Charlie, I am not aware of any style yoga teaching to roll thighs inward for Upavistha Konasana. Exception would be as I mentioned in my original post. (knees are turned outward)
Second, regardless of the students path I feel that it compassionate and necessary for the teacher to instruct correctly. It is our responsibility to make sure our students are safely going into and out of the poses. If the students chooses to not listen to instructions that is their responsibility. The first Yama is Ahimsa or non-violence. This can be applied to asana practice. (performing asana in a non-violent or non-harming way)

I can’t tell you the # of times I’ve had a student tell me that after I helped them get into proper alignment with a pose they can now feel, understand and BE the pose. I make a point of knowing my students and giving them options for modifications stressing that the idea is to feel the stretch not look like the picture or teacher. Each student is different and has different needs. I honor their needs as well as limitations.

Third, as far as the alignment issue of the feet in Warrior I the instruction was given separate the feet (width is widened). She said this squares the hips. She instructed not to align the heels or arches, keeping the length but widening the width. Make sense? Again, there are more effective ways to align and square the hips. One option I give is before bending the knee, extend the opposite arm out to side and parallel and swing it to the front and then have the other arm join it bringing them both overhead, bending the knee. Works just about every time.

While I understand each student is different, there are some universal alignment principles that should be followed. If they are not, the body will allow the pose to happen using the path of least resistance, and wrong muscles, thereby negating any benefit of the pose and weakening muscle groups. This eventually causes misalignment, discomfort and eventually pain. When this happens, the student cannot benefit physically or spiritually.

What I have decided to do is not approach the teacher. I will honor my body by not doing some of the poses the way she describes. I will also continue to teach and explain the way I currently do and encourage my students to see me after class if they have questions or concerns. I can then use that as a gateway for possible dialogue and an explanation from the teacher. What makes the situation complicated is she also teaches at the same studio as I do.

Once again, great discussion and suggestions.

Shanti, Om, Shanti…

#16

Every style teaches different things. However, certain things can be simply bad for your body. During my YTT, we had a teacher come in who had a strong understanding of human anatomy. She was a massage therapist as well as yoga instructor, and demonstrated competence and familiarity with the human body. We were taught to never do certain things, for safety. She said a lot of teachers give poor instructions or give poor cues. Safety is always #1, especially for newbies you’re teaching. Some things we were taught to avoid injury were:

  • Never lock your knees. Despite what some traditions say, this puts stress on a weak ligament. Always have a “micro bend”.
  • Externally rotate your joints to protect them (the opposite of internal rotation). In particular this applies to shoulders (e.g during downward dog) and hips.
  • Never stretch ligaments. They do not recede back to their earlier tensed state like muscles do. Once you stretch them, they never get shorter again. If you feel yourself stretching ligaments, you are doing it improperly and should stop trying so hard. Re-adjust your position and try instead to focus on stretching the “muscle belly” and not the surrounding ligaments.
  • Don’t worry about not having squared hips during Warrior 1, etc. [sorry, I can’t remember the details on why and don’t have my notes with me]

These were the most important ones that I remember.

#17

Thanks PsyDev! If you can find your notes explaining the need to not have hips squared in Warrior I, I’d like to hear the reason. From what I know and what I’ve been taught, if the hips are not squared in Warrior I, you will be coming into a backbend with a twist which is not advisable and possibly injurious. I think part of the difficulty with students getting into Warrior I with squared hips is tightness in the achilles tendon/calf muscles. One way to assist is to have students not bring the back heel down. ( you’re up on the ball of the back foot) This takes the strain off the tendon and muscles allowing the hips to more easily square. The other thing to look for is their stance. Many times it is too wide. Shortening it helps with squaring.

Good advise on locking of knees.

As far as my dilemma, it has been solved! The teacher has been talked to by the owner of the studio who just happened to be attending one of her classes. This prompted the teacher to come to me asking for clarification. Because she asked, I offered. Perfect solution for all! No hurt feelings either. Just great dialogue and a good learning experience.

Thanks to all who offered suggestions. It was a great discussion.

Namaste!

#18

I’m not in my home city at the moment but I will go look at my notes when I get back home and post them.

One other thing I remembered is that she advised is, when you have a bent knee over your ankle, to put a more weight on your heel instead of the ball of the foot. I can’t remember the exact reason but you will be able to tell that doing this requires you to create more stability in the core to stupport yourself.

#19

[QUOTE=PsyDev;34858]I’m not in my home city at the moment but I will go look at my notes when I get back home and post them.

One other thing I remembered is that she advised is, when you have a bent knee over your ankle, to put a more weight on your heel instead of the ball of the foot. I can’t remember the exact reason but you will be able to tell that doing this requires you to create more stability in the core to stupport yourself.[/QUOTE]

Thank you! I will look forward to it.
In addition to what you said above, I also teach my students to take quite a bit of weight i=onto the outside of the back foot. Help with stability.

Shanti!