The Shining One

[QUOTE=Asuri;53358]You guys need to go back and read the original post. You keep trying to tell me how great your tea is, what I said is, we study Samkhya to learn how to make the tea. I stated in another post that my intention is to move away from this type of discussion. Frankly, I’ve had enough of you guys.[/QUOTE]

Actually samkhya tea or advaita vedanta tea…they all lead to the same thing…tea-vana
:wink:

However, my sincere apologies if my comments were unsolicited. I will not post any further on this thread.

Best

Dwai

Surya Deva and others claim that quantum physics supports their point of view, knowing that there are few who have the ability to challenge them on it. Sankara did the same type of thing. In my view, it’s just intellectual trickery.

It’s hard empirical fact now. No time, no space, and no reality. This will become common knowledge this century, as everything else in science has. Realists and materialists will die out.

In fact, they cannot be separated, nor are they separate - everythign in existence is the same energy manifesting in differnet forms. The moment you start dividing between the “relative” and the “absolute”, you immediately start dividing the whole existence into fragments.

You always succeed in making me laugh. To divide somethig you need space and time. As long as there is space and time there is separation(in physics it is known as separability) There is no such thing as space and time, bececause there is no such thing as separability, nothing exists individually, but exists in relation with everything else.

No, there is no space and time. It is now proven experimentally it does not exist. So what is this world of time and space we see? It is the cognitive processes in the mind which receive the basic sense impressions externally, and then organize them into a coherent whole, with distance, size, dimension, position, depth. We know from science reality is nothing like that.

I have now accepted it takes a certain level of intellect to comprehend these things. To me it is common sense, but perhaps that is because I am very bright.

This actually reinforces my point. You claim to experience reality in a way that I (and most other people) do not

In transpersonal psychology other perceptions of reality are clinically proven. There exists states like out of body experiences, oneness experiences, profound bliss, psychodelic experiences. In Yoga, all kinds of experiences have been documented from hearing sounds like rushing water, OM, seeing sounds, hearing colours, hearing mantras, visions, past life memories, kundalini awakenings, seeing yantras in chidakasha(mental space) etc etc

Don’t you think you sound a bit arrogant to say that everybody should experience reality like most people?

Surya,

“To divide somethig you need space and time.”

For that, all that would be needed is an intellect. Otherwise, even according to science, time and space are not separate - they are two aspects of the same phenomenon.

“There is no such thing as space and time, bececause there is no such thing as separability, nothing exists individually, but exists in relation with everything else.”

That everything exists in relation to everything else is true, but that does not mean that time and space does not exist. Time and space are relative, but that does not mean that they are not there. The problem is that all of our ideas about what is “real” and “unreal” are just one’s own interpretations about it. By saying that time and space do not exist, one is saying that they have no real existence - and depending on one’s own ideas as to what is real and unreal, one is going to have different opinions about it. For one person who is too attached to the idea of idealism, that everything in nature is of the nature of mind, for him the only thing that is real is mind. For one who is identified with the idea of materialism, that everything in nature is just matter, for him the only thing that is real is matter. For one who is clinging to the idea of God as a Supreme Being, the only thing that is real is the Supreme Being. For one who is clinging even to the idea of nothingness, then too, it is the same. And out of this, there are as many different belief systems and philosophies as to what is “real” and “unreal”.

So I do not consider these ideas to have any relevance at all as far as enlightenment is concerned, they do not give you an accurate vision of things as they are.

“It is the cognitive processes in the mind which receive the basic sense impressions externally, and then organize them into a coherent whole, with distance, size, dimension, position, depth. We know from science reality is nothing like that.”

Yes, that is true. And we have agreed with each other that what it is that we understand as “reality” is just an interpretation of the mind. It is good that one has moved beyond the idea of time and space. Now move beyond the idea of no-time and no-space, that too is just another interpretation of the mind. Setting aside all intellectual activity - the Truth is not to be understood through any of our mental categories whatsoever.

Sigh :rolleyes:

Space and time have been experimentally proven by science not to exist. I am not going to keep repeating the same point. You are either going to be scientific and accept the facts uncovered by science, or you are going to be religious and stick to your beliefs.

For that, all that would be needed is an intellect. Otherwise, even according to science, time and space are not separate - they are two aspects of the same phenomenon.

Nope, the intellect is simply the intelligence that works out what has been presented to it. It is spaceless and timeless itself. Much like the intelligence working in the universe, it knows no space or time, yet it is spread throughout the universe. The part of the mind which creates the division is the self-constructor(ahamkara) which creates this illusion of “other” and “mine” and starts to see everything as being made of separate things. This is where the illusion of time and space begins. When one loses the ego even partially, ones spatial and temporal awareness is directly affected.

Now move beyond the idea of no-time and no-space, that too is just another interpretation of the mind. Setting aside all intellectual activity - the Truth is not to be understood through any of our mental categories whatsoever.

The trouble with you is that you negate everything, but rather than accepting what remains as the truth, you negate that too :wink: As soon as you negate something it is gone forever. If we know time and space is just in the mind, as soon as you negate time and space, the final truth has to be bereft of it. Like in process of elimination, when we exclude one possibility we exclude it because we know it is not.

Not your fault really. You never got to learn Jnana Yoga. Which is why I am a lot more advanced than you in these matters. You are just not humble enough to take some learning from what I say, because of your “I am awakened” ego.
I am glad Jnana Yoga did not put me in the position that Raja Yoga did for you! My next stop is Raja Yoga by the way, but trust me, I will never ever develop an ego like you and falsely proclaim my enlightenment.

“Space and time have been experimentally proven by science not to exist.”

The mind is incapable of seeing anything else beyond it’s own interpretations, and modern science is no exception. Modern science is just a method of gathering information, now once you have gathered information one has to deal with the problem of it’s interpretation. And that is when there comes a thin dividing line, almost indistinct, between science and philosophy. Even now in science, there are countless theories of the nature of existence - from parrallel universe theories, to multiverse theories, to string theory, to M theory, because what they have seen on the quantum level has been so mind-shattering, so much against the ordinary ways of logic - that such interpretations have arisen. And it is my own understanding that if one says that time and space do not exist that is just another interpretation of the mind, that is another idea that is to be emptied out. Truth is not a conclusion that you come to, it is a living experience which cannot be converted into words.

“The trouble with you is that you negate everything, but rather than accepting what remains as the truth, you negate that too”

If what remains is something which can be understood, then is not that understanding, no matter what it may be, going to be limited ? And if the activity of the mind comes to an absolute stillness - without even a thought stirring, who is going to say anything about it ?
The problem with much that has happened in the yogic sciences is, because of the culture which it has arisen from, much of it has been combined with certain streams of Indian philosophy. And there have been those who, having come to their samadhi, continued clinging to their belief systems and interpreted the experience according to their belief systems. Some interpreted their experience according to the philosophy of Advaita, some according to Samkhya, some according to Buddhism, some were atheists, some were theists - and although they may have come to a transformation, their transformation was incompelte because their knowledge was functioning like a hindrance.

“You never got to learn Jnana Yoga.”

You are right, I do not know much about Jnana Yoga as far as direct experience is concerned because that has not been my approach. But I am aware of what is logical according to my own understanding.

"As soon as you negate something it is gone forever. If we know time and space is just in the mind, as soon as you negate time and space, the final truth has to be bereft of it. Like in process of elimination, when we exclude one possibility we exclude it because we know it is not. "

If you are living in direct communion with your original nature from moment to moment, then where does the need for negating or not negating arise ? These are all intellectual matters. And enlightenment is something experiential, not intellectual. If you interpret it, you will distort the reality. This does not require something like enlightenment, it is the case with even ordinary things. Seeing the sun rise in the morning, or just tasting the sweetness of a peice of fruit - if you try to transmit the experience, no matter how you express yourself, it is never going to transmit the reality, but only a vague interpretation of it.

“You are just not humble enough to take some learning from what I say”

Though I have not expressed it, I have learned much from what you have said. But because my understanding has very little to do with logic - and you are much more oriented towards logic, our ways are just different.

The mind is incapable of seeing anything else beyond it’s own interpretations, and modern science is no exception. Modern science is just a method of gathering information, now once you have gathered information one has to deal with the problem of it’s interpretation. And that is when there comes a thin dividing line, almost indistinct, between science and philosophy. Even now in science, there are countless theories of the nature of existence - from parrallel universe theories, to multiverse theories, to string theory, to M theory, because what they have seen on the quantum level has been so mind-shattering, so much against the ordinary ways of logic - that such interpretations have arisen. And it is my own understanding that if one says that time and space do not exist that is just another interpretation of the mind, that is another idea that is to be emptied out. Truth is not a conclusion that you come to, it is a living experience which cannot be converted into words.

Now, don’t go explaining the philosophy of sciene to me. I did my dissertation in that subject, and I got credentials in it. And you have none :wink: So let the expert speak and learn something:

You are mistaking theory with fact. It is now a fact that time and space do not exist, it is not a theory. It is empirically demonstrated through the test of the Bell inequalities. It is used today to transmit information faster than the speed of light. The experiment has been repeated several times in different parts of the world.

This is not some minds interpretation. These are hard empirical facts. There is no time and space.

The problem with much that has happened in the yogic sciences is, because of the culture which it has arisen from, much of it has been combined with certain streams of Indian philosophy. And there have been those who, having come to their samadhi, continued clinging to their belief systems and interpreted the experience according to their belief systems. Some interpreted their experience according to the philosophy of Advaita, some according to Samkhya, some according to Buddhism, some were atheists, some were theists - and although they may have come to a transformation, their transformation was incompelte because their knowledge was functioning like a hindrance.

Right, and you are obviously free from these mind interpretations, because you are post-enlightenment :wink: If only you could hear what others hear on what you write :smiley:

“You never got to learn Jnana Yoga.”

You are right, I do not know much about Jnana Yoga as far as direct experience is concerned because that has not been my approach. But I am aware of what is logical according to my own understanding.

The path includes Jnana Yoga. There is no such thing as a Bhakti Yoga path, a Karma Yoga path, a Raja Yoga path and a Hatha Yoga path. Jnana, Bhakti, Karma, Raja and Hatha go hand in hand. If you are missing in one, it leads to uneven spiritual development. As it has with you.

Jnana removes avidya and gives you a clear account of reality. Raja Yoga does not immediately give you a clear account, because in Raja Yoga what level of reality you are at, depends on how cultivated you are. This is why Krishna calls Jnana the highest yoga. You first begin with clear knowledge: Jnana - then you start your Hatha and Raja practice and cultivate immense bhakti for the divine, and then when you have reached the divine you cultivate karma yoga to help your common man.

Unlike you, I have no confusion, doubts on what reality is and how it is structured, thanks to my Jnana. So I will not fall into the same trap when I begin my Raja Yoga practice of declaring I am there, before I arrive, or fall into your foolish nonsense of “post-enlightenment” :smiley: I know what to expect, I know what the stages are, so I will know when I have genuinely reached a signficiant level of cultivation.

If you are living in direct communion with your original nature from moment to moment, then where does the need for negating or not negating arise ?

No, you’re not. You’re pretty darn ordinary. Hey join the club :slight_smile:

These are all intellectual matters.

And? How does that make it a bad thing? In case you’ve forgotten, we got an intellect - use it :wink:

And enlightenment is something experiential, not intellectual.

It is both actually. In Jnana Yoga one can reach enlightenment through the intellect by getting a clear vision of reality. Swami Dayananada, the world renowned Vedanta expert, does not see much importance to reaching mystical states. He is practical: use your knowledge to discriminate between what is true and what is false, and then apply that in your life.

it is the case with even ordinary things. Seeing the sun rise in the morning, or just tasting the sweetness of a peice of fruit - if you try to transmit the experience, no matter how you express yourself, it is never going to transmit the reality, but only a vague interpretation of it.

So this is your enlightenment eh? :smiley: You can taste the sweetness of a fruit and see the sun rise in the morning :smiley: Basically, ordiary things that ordinary people do. God, you are pretentious :smiley:

Surya,

“Right, and you are obviously free from these mind interpretations”

When I say that Truth is beyond the words and descriptions of the mind, to you it may be an interpretation, to me it is simply a fact. It is not an interpretation - words and descriptions, whether you are describing Truth or your garden, are just representations of the reality, they are not the reality in itself. The sound of the word “mountain” is not the mountain, and the sound of the word “love” is not love.

"There is no such thing as a Bhakti Yoga path, a Karma Yoga path, a Raja Yoga path and a Hatha Yoga path. "

If some people have combined various forms of yoga, that is an entirely different matter. But most of these forms of yoga were originally prescribed to suit different personality types and temperaments. Depending on your own psychological tendencies, a particular form of yoga was seen to be more suitable for you. That is why each of these approaches by themselves, although each can lead one towards one’s awakening, each are one-dimensional, they do not deal with man as a whole, but in fragments.

“In Jnana Yoga one can reach enlightenment through the intellect by getting a clear vision of reality”

Yes, the intellect can be used as an instrument to come to a transformation - but it is not for the sake of stimulating the intellect, and it has to be done in a particular way. Whether Jnana Yoga, Raja Yoga, or any other form of yoga - it comes to the same - every method is just a differnet strategy towards the same space, to dissolve the psychological hindrances to one’s awakening and come to a direct perception of one’s original nature. Jnana yoga is just another means towards this.

“You can taste the sweetness of a fruit and see the sun rise in the morning Basically, ordiary things that ordinary people do.”

You have assumed that it is normal to be ordinary.

When I say that Truth is beyond the words and descriptions of the mind, to you it may be an interpretation, to me it is simply a fact. It is not an interpretation - words and descriptions, whether you are describing Truth or your garden, are just representations of the reality, they are not the reality in itself. The sound of the word “mountain” is not the mountain, and the sound of the word “love” is not love.

Nope, it is not a fact. You are applying your interpretations on truth by making a truth claim about it “It is beyond words, descriptions” If truth was beyond our intellect, then why do we even know what “truth” is? If truth was beyond our means, then why do we have science? The truth is clearly within the jurisdication of our intellect.

The viewpoint you are espousing is known as mysticisim. It is no more fact than any other viewpoint is.

By the way I was pointing to all the mental interpretatations you apply. You pretend you do not make assumptions, do not apply egoic filters, do not project, accuse everybody else of making assumptions, applying egoic filters, projecting, including other spiritual masters.
Yet, it is very clear you do.

Stop pretending you are free from human errors, because you are not. And don’t give me “I am free from human error, because I am awakened” circular logic. I don’t accept you are enlightened, so it won’t convince me.

If some people have combined various forms of yoga, that is an entirely different matter. But most of these forms of yoga were originally prescribed to suit different personality types and temperaments. Depending on your own psychological tendencies, a particular form of yoga was seen to be more suitable for you. That is why each of these approaches by themselves, although each can lead one towards one’s awakening, each are one-dimensional, they do not deal with man as a whole, but in fragments.

Don’t give me regurgitated new-age crap you have read. You are talking to somebody who has read the primary texts. This notion of there being definitive Yogas for different psychological types is Neo-Hindu, and it was popularized by Swami Vivekananda in the West. The origins of several kinds of Yoga is the Bhagvad Gita, where Krishna does not say to practice one to the exclusion of others. Rather throughout the Gita he explains the importance of all of them. He extolls Jnana Yoga as the highest, but then Arjuna asks him, “Why then do you want me to engage in this terrible bloodshed, if Jnana is the highest” to which Krishna responds that karma Yoga is necessary in life, because there is no such thing as inaction, nature is constantly in motion impelled by the gunas. Then finally he teaches him Bhakti Yoga, to surrender all his actions unto him and to deeply love him - meaning to always remain in the state of stitha prajana.

So the actual primary texts where this concept first originates do not mention one kind of Yoga to the exlclusion of the other. In fact, Jnana is extolled as the highest. Hence, the first Yoga Krishna teaches Arjuna is Jnana.

You have assumed that it is normal to be ordinary.

Yep, look it up in a dictionary.

@sd

Since asuri the op has started a new thread i’ll post here…

Even in jnana yoga…the intellect can only take yu to the logical brink of absolute realization or brahma jnana. To have complete direct experience, it requires prajna.

Unless one becomes sthitaprajna one is not “enlightened” fully…imho.

Now prajna is important because it bypasses rational faculties…it is direct wisdom that arises as a result of being stabilized in the nondual…

I’veposted two poems here in the poetry section in which some of these insights manifested a while back…did i need rational intellect to write them…sure.
But the main driver was prajna…of course i am just a lowly seeker…a nobody…but pehaps you will find what was written through me interesting and insightful…

I agree, Jnana on its own will not lead you to Prajna. Jnana simply maps out the how and why of prajna, satisfying the intellect and clearing all doubt. So you can proceed to prajna confidently and knowing what to expect and what stages to pass.

It begins with Jnana Yoga, then it moves into Raja Yoga(of which Hatha Yoga is a part) and culminates in Karma and Bhakti Yoga.

Surya,

“This notion of there being definitive Yogas for different psychological types is Neo-Hindu, and it was popularized by Swami Vivekananda in the West.”

No, it is not. That has been an approach for centuries, and there have been various schools and traditions which have been following particular forms of yoga depending on their own inclinations.

“The origins of several kinds of Yoga is the Bhagvad Gita”

That is more nonsense. The origins lie in practice itself, not in scriptures. And the things which the Bhagavad Gita has been speaking of has been known for centuries before it had ever come into existence.

“So the actual primary texts where this concept first originates do not mention one kind of Yoga to the exlclusion of the other.”

That may be the attitude in the Bhagavad Gita which you may be in favor of, but not everybody has been adopting the same attitude. And I am also in favor of working upon every dimension of man, man is a multidimensional being. But if you insist that every tradition has been working upon various forms of yoga, then you are just ignorant about the matter.

The origins of several kinds of Yoga is the Bhagvad Gita

Buzz of Amir, you have no credentials to be talking to me about me about the origins of different kind of Yogas. Speak as much as you know, and say nothing beyond that.

As far as scholars of Yoga know the idea of different types of Yoga for different types of people first originates in the Gita. None of the Upanishads contain this idea. None of the Vedas contain this idea. The Gita is more a systematic presentation of Upanshadic philosophy with some of its own new ideas.